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Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,911
God, I couldn't disagree more. Rose, Dalek, Father's Day, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, Bad Wolf and Parting of the Ways are all-time classic Doctor Who episodes, every one. Like, Van Statten is an irritating side character but that's sort of the point of him, right? Likewise for Adam.

Christmas Invasion is brilliant too... and then in series 2 I'd say School Reunion, Girl in the Fireplace, Impossible Planet/Satan Pit and Army of Ghosts/Doomsday are all absolute classics too. Secretly I have a lot of love for Tooth and Claw and Love & Monsters too, though I know those are polarizing in a big way, so ey.

The production value is very rocky and series 1 and 2 are home to two of the worst episodes in New Who (The Long Game/Fear Her), but I honestly still think they're amazing TV with some really brilliant, snappy writing. There's an energy to those first two years that is still unmatched, really, though everything else improved in kind around it. Every RTD year was better than the last, but I still don't think 1/2 are bad, really.

I have no illusion about being in the majority here. I'm on record as saying I far preferred Moffat to RTD, and that is in itself a controversial viewpoint.

Well, I think production quality matters. I don't look back at Series 1 and treat it like I do classic Who (with the understanding that it's a part of it's time). 2005 was a long time ago but Doctor Who was lagging behind it's peers quite a bit. The music is a problem, too. A lot of the score, particularly in Season 1, is just dreadful. I wonder what I would feel about Rose now if it were re-scored.

The other problem is I don't seem to be able to tolerate that brand of cheese anymore. A character like Van Statten isn't just "irritating" for the sake of being irritating, he's a cartoon in the way that very few characters would be once Doctor Who got it's feet. I think this is also why I dislike the less eventful Christmas specials and why I disliked Nardole until he was actually part of the series as it normally exists.

Once Doctor Who stopped being so much about rubber suits and leant into it's horror, I think it was a richer show with more to offer. Episodes like Blink, Listen, The Empty Child and Dark Water ring around in my head WAY WAY more than Father's Day ever did for example.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,731
England
That's a fair viewpoint, I think, and an interesting one. I'm far more about the emotion than the rubber suits, so I'd take a Father's Day with a naff CGI monster but a really strong, heartbreaking and rather brutal emotional core over clever, scary monsters. (Probably my largest 'issue' with Moffat's era - which make no mistake is excellent - is that he's great at being clever and scary, but much less adept at being heartfelt.) Sometimes those streams cross, of course, like with Human Nature, and that's when you get the best episodes of the show.

I think Doctor Who still does plenty of characters like Van Statten though when push comes to shove. Is the guy in Thin Ice last year any less of an evil capitalist pig caricature?
 
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Fuu

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,361
Same here, I'll take some goofy looking shit if there's a strong emotional core to the story and the acting is on point.

The two extreme exemples of this for me are the Slitheen and the Whisper Men.

The former were silly rubbery farting aliens, but we got an episode like Boom Town out of them, which I really enjoyed because of how humane and intimate it was. The latter looked creepy as hell and showed a lot of promise, but didn't amount to much.

(There are examples of those under both RTD and Moffat. This post is more about my feelings regarding the antagonists of the show in general.)
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,866
Same here, I'll take some goofy looking shit if there's a strong emotional core to the story and the acting is on point.

The two extreme exemples of this for me are the Slitheen and the Whisper Men.

The former were silly looking rubbery farting aliens, but we got an episode like Boom Town out of them, which I really enjoyed because of how humane and intimate it was. The latter looked creepy as hell and showed a lot of promise, but didn't amount to much.

(There are examples of those under both RTD and Moffat. This post is more about my feelings about the antagonists of the show in general).

Oh, the Whispermen...

Really, The Name of the Doctor was pretty much an exercise in treading water in general. I wonder if Moffat already knew it would be Matt's last regular episode before he wrote it, because almost the entire episode was focused more on Clara, the side characters and the big twist at the end than on Eleven himself.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,623
Some more Troughton write-ups I've been sitting on.

The Enemy of the World
Maybe not anyone's first choice for a recovered previously-missing serial, and perhaps the weakest of the Troughton episodes I've seen thus far, but it's an interesting sort of digression from this era's usual fare, which was much more focused on base-under-siege plots and alien monster attacks. This story doesn't have any of that. Instead, it's set in a near-future Earth, where a would-be dictator named Salamander (also played by Troughton!) is manipulating environmental disasters to accumulate political power, and is confronted by a band of resistance fighters who see through his plot. The Doctor and co. get roped into it, largely because of the Doctor's identical resemblance to Salamader. It's a pretty interesting premise, and has more of a 60s Mission Impossible/Avengers/James Bond secret agent-y feel than typical Doctor Who stories.

It's at least two episodes too long, though, and the pace can be glacial at times. Also, while it's neat to see Troughton play a villain -- who has some killer moments and a genuinely interesting plot twist -- it ends up sidelining the Doctor a lot, and the two only get to face each other in literally the last two minutes of the final episode (but it's a great scene!). All the padding brings it down a bit for me, but it's a unique story choice for 60s Who and an interesting curio of the times. And the restoration team did fantastic work on this - the picture quality is great!

The Web of Fear
The other missing serial recovered and released alongside The Enemy of the World (though episode 3 is still MIA), this one is much more typical Troughton fare -- the Doctor and co. are trapped in the London subway tunnels and surrounded on all sides by robotic Yeti -- but also a more exciting and faster paced. This serial is notable for being the first appearance of Nicholas Courtney as Lethbridge-Stewart, here as a pre-UNIT colonel. There's a surprisingly robust looking shootout scene between the colonel and his men and the Yeti. Between that and just the look of the tunnels, the production values on this serial look notably better than other episodes.

The Mind Robber
Based on the premise alone, I was expecting not to really like this one -- the Doctor in imagination land, surrounded by fictional characters, just seemed too weird and potentially too kid-friendly. Man, was I wrong. This is the best Troughton episode I've seen by far! The first episode might be the single best-directed episode of classic Who thus far, but really the direction across the whole serial is very strong and way above average, making a lot out of very little. The fictional characters are woven in very nicely, the dialogue is unusually sharp and witty (resembling more modern Who really), the episodes move along at a strong clip, feeling better paced at five episodes than other serials do at four, and Troughton gives one of his best performances. From the delivery of his banter to his physical mannerisms, he's at the top of his game here. This is also the first episode I've seen with new companion Zoe, who already kicks ass.

More like an episode of The Prisoner than Doctor Who, The Mind Robber is a trippy but stylish, excellently directed and written story, boasting some of Troughton's finest work on the show. Loved it.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,731
England
Same here, I'll take some goofy looking shit if there's a strong emotional core to the story and the acting is on point.

The two extreme exemples of this for me are the Slitheen and the Whisper Men.

The former were silly rubbery farting aliens, but we got an episode like Boom Town out of them, which I really enjoyed because of how humane and intimate it was. The latter looked creepy as hell and showed a lot of promise, but didn't amount to much.

(There are examples of those under both RTD and Moffat. This post is more about my feelings regarding the antagonists of the show in general.)

I even think World War Three is a really good episode, tbh. The hardcore "fuck Blair" tone of the episode hasn't aged brilliantly (although, for the record: fuck Blair) but that's an episode that's incredibly brave - to take a drama-sci-fi-family series like Doctor Who and lock all the major players inside one room for almost an entire episode. Really good stuff.
 

Fuu

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,361
I even think World War Three is a really good episode, tbh. The hardcore "fuck Blair" tone of the episode hasn't aged brilliantly (although, for the record: fuck Blair) but that's an episode that's incredibly brave - to take a drama-sci-fi-family series like Doctor Who and lock all the major players inside one room for almost an entire episode. Really good stuff.
For sure. I actually have very few issues with series 1, and I was coming from series 5 (my first Who season, which I loved).
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
The Mind Robber is one of the few Classic Who episodes I've seen (perhaps the first) and I did not enjoy it. Might not have warmed up to the relaxed pacing yet, frankly.
 

tuffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,516
Because The Mind Robber had its episode count bumped up from 4 to 5 at the last minute (meaning the 1st episode had to be built from whatever could be scrounged up with zero budget), Patrick Troughton argued that it wasn't fair for the actors to make up the slack. So all of the Mind Robber's episodes are several minutes shorter than usual and the whole story is about the same length as a regular 4-parter. That might be why its pace feels zippier than most.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,623
Because The Mind Robber had its episode count bumped up from 4 to 5 at the last minute (meaning the 1st episode had to be built from whatever could be scrounged up with zero budget), Patrick Troughton argued that it wasn't fair for the actors to make up the slack. So all of the Mind Robber's episodes are several minutes shorter than usual and the whole story is about the same length as a regular 4-parter. That might be why its pace feels zippier than most.
Yeah, I noticed the run times of each ep were about 5 minutes shorter than usual, which probably helped keep it from dragging.

Funny that that first episode was such a last-minute piece of work, I thought it was fantastic. You can tell there's basically no budget (the only two sets are the TARDIS and literally a blank room), but the director makes it work so well.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
I even think World War Three is a really good episode, tbh. The hardcore "fuck Blair" tone of the episode hasn't aged brilliantly (although, for the record: fuck Blair)

As I recall, the only thing Doctor Who says about Tony Blair (who I don't think is named in the episode) is that the Slitheen couldn't use his skin as a disguise because he was too slim.

I must have missed the subtext.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,731
England
As I recall, the only thing Doctor Who says about Tony Blair (who I don't think is named in the episode) is that the Slitheen couldn't use his skin as a disguise because he was too slim.

I must have missed the subtext.

The entire Slitheen plot is a pastiche of the Iraq War, complete with the (ultimately false) claim that the (fake) alien ship has "massive weapons of destruction that can be deployed in thirty seconds", which is more or less exactly fingering Blair's claim to the commons that Hussain had "weapons of mass destruction that could be deployed in forty-five minutes", a quote that by 2005 was infamous for how wrong it was. The whole second half of the story is a parody of Britain and America's rush to a preemptive strike based on false information. I always thought that line was a bit on the nose, personally, given it's a near direct quote, but I get what he was trying to do.

That and, er, they deliberately (and this is by RTD's own admission) kill a PM who looks a lot like Blair. As per him laughing about it in The Writer's Tale, he insisted they get someone who looked like Blair because he was very much anti-Blair (he's no Tory, though - he just hated Labor's lurch to the middle).

At the time of broadcast it caused a bit of a stir in the papers, with some of the angrier papers like the Mail decrying it as an unpatriotic breach of the BBC's impartiality rules and other papers claiming it was a brilliant mockery of real life.

It's not so much subtext as, well, text - and text the writer has tacitly admitted to and spoken about, since that episode was really the first time Doctor Who as a show ever made a definitive political statement, though of course it's made many since.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
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Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
It's not so much subtext as, well, text - and text the writer has tacitly admitted to and spoken about, since that episode was really the first time Doctor Who as a show ever made a definitive political statement, though of course it's made many since.

I did get the ridiculous hyperbolae and relate it to the Iraq War. I suppose it didn't really seem that calculated a script, as I don't read the loony newspapers and haven't read The Writer's Tale. I probably share Davies' politics to such an extent that I'm not surprised by this characterization of government news management. It's been that way as long as I've been an adult, Blair wasn't the first.
 
OP
OP
Dwebble

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,627
Interesting stuff coming from the set, regarding the setting of one of the early series 11 episodes.

Judging by the set dressing, including a very recognizable bus, whatever they're filming in South Africa appears to take place in Montgomery, Alabama, in the mid-50s.
 

zooj

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
859
Ames, IA
Interesting stuff coming from the set, regarding the setting of one of the early series 11 episodes.

Judging by the set dressing, including a very recognizable bus, whatever they're filming in South Africa appears to take place in Montgomery, Alabama, in the mid-50s.
Topical who is best Who
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261
Interesting stuff coming from the set, regarding the setting of one of the early series 11 episodes.

Judging by the set dressing, including a very recognizable bus, whatever they're filming in South Africa appears to take place in Montgomery, Alabama, in the mid-50s.
Nice.
I'll also enjoy the moaning that'll inevitably coincide with it
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,435
4 episodes away from completing my first watch of the Eccleston series. The chemistry between Billie Piper and Christopher is fantastic and I really enjoy the stories (and cheese production values; really looks like they were trying to modernize it but have it look and feel like the older series as well). The episode with Rose's dad is by far my favorite thus far and again highlights how important character work is in this franchise. It really is too bad Christopher did not stick around but the silver lining is Tenant's legendary run may not have existed if he did, I imagine. I'm really not ready to see Christopher leave :(

On another side note, is Simon Pegg destined to look young forever? Was surprised to see him in his role as The Editor. Brilliant job he does there too
 

Fuu

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,361
I saw the pic and I don't get it. Can someone explain what it's supposed to spoil? (Unless that's the joke and the pic doesn't mean anything, lol)
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
I saw the pic and I don't get it. Can someone explain what it's supposed to spoil? (Unless that's the joke and the pic doesn't mean anything, lol)

Apparently we're not even supposed to discuss the fact that some future episodes of Doctor Who might be set in the United States.

While I'm sensitive to the fact that some people don't want to know stuff, it does need to be said that this is a Doctor Who discussion thread. If people are seriously trying to hamper open discussion of the current status of production of the next series of Doctor Who, and they think that kind of behaviour is acceptable, maybe they should avoid this thread.
 
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LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
Big world shattering event? no, but people should have the option of knowing.

Knowing what? That a future episode of Doctor Who might be set in AmericaThat is literally all the picture shows. It features a yellow bus and what might be an old fashioned American police car.

Has the spoiler lunacy spread so far that it's impossible to discuss evidence that Doctor Who is occasionally set on Earth?
 
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Taki

Attempt to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,308
guys i think im developing a crush on the new doctor and that makes me confused send help
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261
Knowing what?
That a future episode of Doctor Who might be set in America? That is literally all the picture shows. It features a yellow bus and what might be an old fashioned American police car.

Has the spoiler lunacy spread so far that it's impossible to discuss evidence that Doctor Who is occasionally set on Earth?
Don't be obtuse! Some people don't want to know possible episode plots and they'd like to come here and discuss other things related to the show, more importantly it doesn't take much effort to just spoil tag your reply to that!

guys i think im developing a crush on the new doctor and that makes me confused send help
https://youtu.be/onMFNqTzv6k?t=2m29s
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,611
Australia
OP
OP
Dwebble

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,627
Knowing what? That a future episode of Doctor Who might be set in America? That is literally all the picture shows. It features a yellow bus and what might be an old fashioned American police car.

Has the spoiler lunacy spread so far that it's impossible to discuss evidence that Doctor Who is occasionally set on Earth?
That's not just any bus- it's the Rosa Parks bus. I referred to the broad details of the plot in a previous spoiler tag, and then elaborated in another. It's 100% valid.

In fact, I'll make this easy for you. Here's the thread's spoiler policy, taken directly from the opening post.

Our spoiler policy is a simple one; as soon as an episode has aired on BBC One, it is fair game for discussion without spoiler tags. If there is material officially released by the BBC, such as a trailer or a press release, it is also fair game for open discussion. For set reports or leaks, use spoiler tags.

I'd appreciate it if you stopped breaking our rules.
 
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APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,731
England
It's actually a very significant spoiler because if you know what you're looking at it spoils the timeline and location of an episode, and more importantly very probably a guest star

since this seems to pretty heavily point to us revisiting the historical guest star concept, which we haven't in earnest since Series 5

It also points to the show tackling some really interesting subject matter too, which is cool.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,731
England
Out today, as a reminder:
DUOcPWaXkAAJE3v.jpg:large
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
The only things stopping me getting into the Big Finish productions are a lack of time and an abundance of other things to spend my money on. They all look very tempting.
 

CommodoreKong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,713
The only things stopping me getting into the Big Finish productions are a lack of time and an abundance of other things to spend my money on. They all look very tempting.

Yeah they look good but I read the Doctor Who graphic novels (which are fairly decent quality). I love graphic novels/comics so it makes more sense to me to buy those.
 

8bit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,390
Expected the Brexit bus for some reason, then thought, no it must be the bus from Planet of the Dead.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,611
Australia
The previous Diaries featured 8 in Part 1, and 6 & 7 (together) in Part 2 IIRC.

Yeah, that's right. Eight was in one story of the first set, and then the second featured episodes with River and Seven, then River and Six, and then the three of them together. She was also in three of the Eighth Doctor Doom Coalition sets.

Hearing Alex Kingston and Tom Baker together in the fourth series of Diary is going to be amazing.