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Oct 26, 2017
12,125
all in all, I really hope they Ramp up the dialoug options and poltics in future titles across the spectrum from bethesda.

I want nuance, I want investigations, I want hidden dialoug that can only be accessed by someone paying attention and not followingthe glowing portals.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,718
Part of the White Cord thingamajig was banning the belief in Thalos which is the Nords primary believe. You open the the game with the imperials about to execute you because ??? My in opinion is because they're scared, weak, and a shell of what they were. The imperials strikes me a desperate in the face of the Thalmor. The Nords are the ones saying fucking you and your peace treaty. They're choosing their way of life over hoping the imperials gets their shit together.

The Nords are super short sighted then. Cause if the Stormcloaks win, then the Thalmor come in and conquer Skyrim. Which the Stormcloaks would lose.

But I guess they having religious freedom for like a few days/months is preferable over Skyrim's long term survival.
 

Rigby

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
693
Stormcloaks, Skyrim belongs to the Nords.
Listen folks, when the Khajiit come to Skyrim they're not sending their best. They're bringing skooma, they're bringing crime. They're thieves and liars... and some, I assume, are good people.
 

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,602
I see a lot of "both sides" people here. Disgusting.

The Stormcloacks are just racists. Ulfric doesn't care about Skyrim or it's people. He just wants power for himself. In many ways, the Stormcloacks are videogame ISIS. They use religion to recruit people to their cause and kill anyone that disagrees with them.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,539
Should also be noted that I assassinated the emperor as well. Dude wasn't doing a great job and I wanted to see them crown a new emperor to stand against the Thalmor.

Titus Mede II actually did a phenomenal job during the Great War, if you read the wikipedia entry I linked on the first page.

That said, there's significant evidence that he was the one who devised his own assassination, as his personal room in his ship is littered with Dark Brotherhood reading material. Despite completely routing the main Thalmor army, liberating the Imperial City, and forcing the Thalmor into a stalemate, Mede knew his reputation was abysmal, and he consequently couldn't rally the Empire in the coming Second Great War.

Thus, his only option was martyrdom, to allow his (probably adult) son to succeed him. Motierre, the guy who hired the Brotherhood, and who Mede asks you to counter-assassinate, was a member of the Elder Council, and likely a political rival for Mede's successor.
 

Deleted member 2340

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,661
The Nords are super short sighted then. Cause if the Stormcloaks win, then the Thalmor come in and conquer Skyrim. Which the Stormcloaks would lose.

But I guess they having religious freedom for like a few days/months is preferable over Skyrim's long term survival.


Like the Thalmor did in Hammerfel? The Nords have a long history of war and helping the empire in their wars. Everything I'm bringing up is from books you read in the game itself. Assuming the Thalmor would steam roll the Nords is like assuming the Thalmor would steam roll the Red Guard which they didn't. Also a bid massive question mark is the Dragon Born. If he enters in Skyrim behalf that's more then enough to detour the Thalmor.

The Stormcloaks seems confident that they can protect themselves from the Thalmor unlike the imperials who looks like a defeated dog in this game.
 
Oct 26, 2017
12,125
Other thing I was thinking about was black reach.

If Imperials would secretly sign a pact with skyrim "move out" while going in and setting up shop in black reach and using black reach as a stagin ground for a new imperial army would be fantastic.

Give skyrim its "independence" and lure the thalmor into a false sense of security. Ulfric would be for this, no more out right banning of talos, let him rule for a bit while supplying the war effort and removal of the thalmor longterm.

50 years later imperials start a mini proxy war with thalmor on the outside edge of skyrim, at hammerfall. and when the thalmor army sets up shops have the army emerge from blackreach surround them and destroy them and retake the empire.
 

Chocobo Blade

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,865
I'm really bothered by the OP and others' attempts at whitewashing the Empire in order to make the in-game politics seem parallel to the current American politics.
 

Sabercrusader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,201
I chose Stormcloaks during my first playthrough back in 2011 when the game came out.

I don't regret that choice, I only regret the way it was handled in game. I have major issues with the way Bethesda handled the conflict in Skyrim. It at times is clearly the main questline that isn't the main quest, but it also feels like it has far less impact than it should.
 

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
13,620
Eastern US
Stormcloaks, for two reasons.

1. Thalmor are terrible and deserve to be destroyed.
2. Imperials tried to kill you without a reason at the beginning. Yeah, Dragonborn does not forget something like that. Seriously, Imperials were about to chop your head off for no reason at all. I would rather side with the dragons.
 

dubq

Member
Oct 27, 2017
408
Honestly they both suck. The Empire caves to the Thalmor, which is a pretty racist faction.. but then you have the Stormcloaks, who are also pretty racist with their "Skyrim is for the Nords" nonsense. =\
 

TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
Ulfric isn't a Thalmor puppet in the sense that he reports to them or they control him, but he is an asset. However he is a hostile asset.

They don't want the Stormcloaks to win the war either, they want it to continue. The Dominion wouldn't be able to easily sweep through an independent Skyrim like people have claimed. They couldn't take Hanmerfell and Skyrim is bordered on 3 sides by mountains and on the other by icy seas and a rocky coast.
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,135
Ulfric Stormcloak is a Thalmor plant, having been re-educated by them in captivity. The Stormcloak rebellion is entirely of Thalmor machination. Elenwen, the Thalmor's emissary in Skyrim, was in Helgen in the introduction to ensure their puppet, Ulfric, wasn't executed.

I had forgotten about that. Yeah, considering that, it seems the right thing to do to save Skyrim is to make sure Ulfric has the least power possible.
 

Grexeno

Sorry for your ineptitude
Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,797
Not only are the Stormcloaks racist as all hell, they work for the Thalmor and don't even know it.
 

Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,720
There's unused dialogue files showing what Elenwen (the Thalmor leader in Skyrim) and Tullius were talking about at Helgen before the execution: she was demanding Tullius stop the execution and give the prisoners to her. That and the dossier (where it mentions that direct intervention at Helgen was rare but necessary) confirm that if Alduin hadn't shown up, the Thalmor would have tried their best to free Ulfric at the very least. That also paints Tullius trying to execute a simple horse thief and an unknown border crosser in a different light. What if you or Lokir had been Stormcloak spies or foreign Thalmor agents put in place to ruin the execution? Why take chances? Tullius basically figured out that the civil war was what the Thalmor wanted, he was trying to stick it to them and ruin their plans by executing everyone there.
 

AndrewDean84

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,595
Fontana, California
The real answer is, it doesn't matter, kill the group you'd like to kill more of. I kill all camps I come across, outside of the characters that are only downed.
 

Azzanadra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,807
Canada
Wow, flashbacks in 2011/2 here.... its great to see the debate still raging on, aha.

Anyways I only ever completed the quest line with my main who was a Dark Elf, so a trip to Windhelm made the choice real easy.
 

Dandy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,470
I chose the Stormcloaks, mainly because my character was a nord. Not sure what I would choose now.
 

pezzie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,446
I've only done one playthrough of Skyrim (100+ hours though), and I picked the Stormcloaks as my pick early in the game because "Fuck that Empire! They almost killed me!"

The longer I played the game, the more I regretted that choice though. Ulfric was a racist bastard, and the Imperials didn't really mistreat the Nords that much. Seemed like Skyrim would be more stable under them. Still finished the quest though because it is a video game and I wanted to get that quest done, but if I ever play again I'd go Empire easily (might still kill that Emperor though).
 

Yarbskoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,980
The Imperials have their own issues, but only a united Empire can break the Thalmor's hold on Tamriel.
 

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,148
The fantastic thing about New Vegas is that even if you choose the Legion (which in a standard Bethesda game would be the "Player is evil and wants to see the world burn" choice), an argument can still be made about how that would possibly in the long run help the Mojave Wasteland, considering the fact that multiple characters mention how Legion-controlled Arizona is probably one of the safest places in America (with raider gangs being all but wiped out) and Caesar himself seems pretty open to just let the Mojave Wasteland govern themselves as long as they pay tribute (much like the actual Roman Empire). Unfortunately Obsidian had to cut a bunch of Legion stuff due to time constraints, so they were not as nuanced as Avellone, Sawyer & co. initially hoped they would be.
Considering how the Legion treats women, I don't think there's enough nuance in the world to ever justify siding with them.
 

dpunk3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
376
Massachusetts, USA
Imperials all the way, I can't stand the blind racism of Stormcloaks. Imperials want to control the nordic beliefs for sure, they can fuck off with that banning of Talos. It's just the hand of the Aldmeri Dominion, who can also fuck right on off. Hate the Dominion and always will.
 

Xiao Hu

Chicken Chaser
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,497
There's unused dialogue files showing what Elenwen (the Thalmor leader in Skyrim) and Tullius were talking about at Helgen before the execution: she was demanding Tullius stop the execution and give the prisoners to her. That and the dossier (where it mentions that direct intervention at Helgen was rare but necessary) confirm that if Alduin hadn't shown up, the Thalmor would have tried their best to free Ulfric at the very least. That also paints Tullius trying to execute a simple horse thief and an unknown border crosser in a different light. What if you or Lokir had been Stormcloak spies or foreign Thalmor agents put in place to ruin the execution? Why take chances? Tullius basically figured out that the civil war was what the Thalmor wanted, he was trying to stick it to them and ruin their plans by executing everyone there.

I didn't know about the cut dialogue which could have made the intro sequence far more intriguing than it is, thanks for that!

Bethesda really needs a good and competent writing team for TES VI. RPGs like TES deserve better nuanced staging by npcs and far greater depth for story telling. Skyrim has been a lackluster of unused potential and the remaster could have used an overhaul especially in the stroy telling department (as well as guilds and city size).
 

Radd Redd

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,031
Legion. Their hearts are in the right place. The Stormcloaks are pretty racist to anything not Nord. Seriously play the game and tell me they aren't a bunch of bigots.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,642
Considering how the Legion treats women, I don't think there's enough nuance in the world to ever justify siding with them.
"The Legion" as shown in the game isn't the Legion as a whole though. It's just the front line of their war, Caesar's Legion controls an absolutely massive amount of land. Yes, in the Legion camp women were purely slaves and most of the Legion soldiers encountered in the game straight up hate women, but meanwhile Cass mentions how she's able to travel safely through Legion lands, she even mentions how she doesn't even need bodyguards because no one in their right mind would ever try to attack someone, man or woman, in Legion-controlled lands because of the severe punishments for raider actions. Also, the Wiki and J.E. Sawyer himself have this to say about female roles in Caesar's Legion:
"Women are expressly forbidden from fighting and act as support corps. They are caretakers, healers, midwives and breeders, fulfilling roles essential to maintaining the Legion's continuous campaign of expansion. Of particular note are the priestesses, who raise children taken from their parents, and raise them in keeping with Caesar's doctrine.

Even though breeding is incredibly important in the Legion, there isn't any concept of family outside of the Legion's structure. All of the places where the player encounters the Legion are forward camps where direct military service is given the most weight and is of the most immediate importance. Because only males are involved in that service, they look down upon females even though it's incredibly short-sighted.
So basically, lore-wise in Caesar's Legion women are viewed as inferior to men, but they are not merely slaves, but fill roles that Caesar deems fitting for their sex. However, they are generally seen as lesser than men and treated as such (which fits in with the Roman motif, considering women were treated pretty much the same in Roman times). Because all you see in the game are war camps and women aren't allowed in the military, women are nowhere to be found in those camps except as conquered slaves. The original plan was to include some of this stuff in the game, but most of it didn't make it in, which makes the Legion just seem almost comically misogynistic. It also makes playing through the Legion storyline with a female character a bit... odd.

EDIT: Not that I'm defending Caesar's Legion, they are very much the evil choice, no matter how you twist and turn it, but there's a method to their madness. They basically live on the following ideal "Hey, the Roman Empire managed to create a good society for hundreds of years, no reason why we couldn't do the same". They're not evil for the sake of being evil. I also personally love how the most evil faction in the game was created out of the most morally good faction in the game; Joshua Graham and Caesar used to be Followers before finding a pre-war book about the Roman Empire and deciding that the way to save the world was by creating the same kind of order that the Romans did.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 11290

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
158

RetroGiant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
592
I honestly can't remember but I think I killed the leader of the stormcloaks cause he was being a dick after I helped them, I think. Regardless this thread kind of makes me want to get Skyrim on the X, throw some mods on it and play again. Spent a couple hundred hours on the 360.
 
Oct 29, 2017
458
I've progressively flopped throughout the years. When the game first came out, I was almost always exclusively for the Empire no matter which character I played as, but as time has gone on, I've found a softer spot for the 'cloaks and have taken their side more and more often.
 

Zellia

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,769
UK
The real problem is the Thalmor. Helping the Stormcloaks - themselves a cat's paw of the Thalmor - weakens the Empire further, and a 'free' Skyrim would be steamrollered hard by the Thalmor. Both Nords and the Empire lose, while genocidal Nazi elves who want to un/remake the world win.

That and the Stormcloaks are nasty ethno-nationalist bigots.
 

PixelParty

User requested permanent ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
345
Well, I forever and always play Elder Scrolls games as either a Khajiit or an Argonian so obviously I sided with nobody.

Interestingly enough, in Elder Scrolls Online the Khajiit are in the Aldmeri Dominion and the Argonians are in the Ebonheart Pact with the Nords, but in both factions they are least powerful race, to the point where they are/were enslaved.

If I had to choose, I'd side with the Imperials as the Stormcloaks remind me of my super racist in-laws.
 

Katarn343

Member
Jan 22, 2018
1,678
México - United States
The Legion. Everything just points out at it being the most logical answer. From the dossier about Ulfric on the Thalmor HQ, to the fact that even general Tullius admits hatred of the High Elves during the embassy quest, I think the Imperial Legion is just playing the waiting-game to strike war against the Aldmeri Dominion once more.
 

Drksage

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,278
When I first played the game I'd always choose stormcloaks cause "FUCK THE EMPIRE SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS!" but after playing the game you'll start to realize that:

Stormcloaks are racist, xenophobic assholes that prayed on the weak minded and used religion to get their way.

The imperials got fucked by the thalmor and they got so fucked by them that they had no other choice but to do as they say.

And the that thalmor need war to get rich they also want to destabilize Tamriel so they can control all of it. So they tell the imperials "hey stormcloaks are threatening the empire" while at the same time telling the stormcloaks "hey you see those guys *points at imperials* they want to take Skyrim from its people"

Spoiler: go with the imperials, when you finish that side quest you'll feel better about since in the end they say "it's time to bring the war to the thalmor"
 

No Depth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,307
Completed everything in the game and this decision was literally the last one I made back in 2011. Just couldn't pick a side as I was constantly reminded of the atrocities that both were responsible for, so I just avoided the issue and kept my focus on everything else. Can't even recall which I went with, but it was the last achievement I needed, so I think I just chose one for the pop-up and then moved onto a different game.

Witcher 1 gave me a similar dilemma, as it seemed obvious to defend and support the Squirrels over the Rose Army(persecuted minority races vs. xenophobic religious sect with a superiority complex). Was ready to commit immediately, until I realized the lengths the Squirrels would go for their freedom involved some heavy terrorist shit. I empathized given their plight, but couldn't follow them down that path. But fortunately Witcher 1 gives you a third option...