Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Choppasmith · Feb 9, 2018

I guess I know how the long-time Fire Emblem fans feel now. As I said in the other thread. I think the game looks like a lot of fun. The variety of costumes are nice, definitely a fan of Arabian Nakoruru and Indian (?) Mai but I really wish it didn't lean so hard on the fan service and I just don't get the blushing.

And yeah, I'm really surprised Nintendo went with that thumbnail. I mean, yeah, it's eye catching, no surprise there, but for a family friendly company like Nintendo.

RM8 · Feb 10, 2018

It does suck when you got into gaming because of fighting games, absolutely love fighting games, but wish fighting games wouldn't be a vehicle for trashy waifus.

I don't mind DOA existing, for example, but what is happening here is exactly what I hate - OTHER games becoming DOA-fied. SFV did, and now a sequel to this:

Also got heavily DOA-fied. You know, western games are obviously not above trashy pandering, but I do wish we could have more western fighting games. MK, Injustice, and KI have sexy designs, but that's not the only kind of design they have, and it's sad but it feels refreshing nowadays.

Shingi_70 · Feb 10, 2018

I don't mind fanservice every now and then, but blushing wanting to have your cake and eat it too can get annoying. Nothing takes me out of the mood more then watching or reading a manga or anime where the character is clearly an adult but has the reponse to adult situations like a child would.

That leads me to another question, when it comes to sexualization in alot of japanese games why is alot of it done to clearly underage characters. Like damn I don't mind shit like DOA or Dragon's crown because the characters are adults and appealing. However I just don't understand the other elements of it.

Lime · Feb 10, 2018

Imran did a nice interview on Game Informer with Yasuyuki Oda on SNK Heroines' Sexualization:

Culturally, where do you think this game actually fits in with a modern, more broad gaming culture? There has been backlash against games of this type that kind of flirt with sexuality as a driving force. Do you think this game follows in that, do you think it bucks that trend?

Oda: There is exposure of female parts, but we don't feel like it's overly sexualized. It is there, but we want to push the cute aspect of things, the elegant-ness of the women, and we feel like we are able to cull the people that would bash this game for there being too much exposure.

Do you feel like that the game, with reference to sexuality, tends to respect the characters? Mai has always been a very sexualized character, but for example Leona hasn't. She's been a very stoic character, and yet in this game she's wearing a catsuit in a thong. What would you say to a fan who has loved that character for years, but sees this and doesn't jive with what they know of that fighter?

Oda: There's a reason they're wearing these costumes. They're not just wearing these costumes because we wanted them to. There's a full story behind it which we can't really go into details about at this moment, but if you play the story I think our fans would better understand why they were put in this situation. We made an effort to make sure the image of our characters will stay the same, even after people play this game.

I wonder about Khan's facial expression during this exchange :lol Anyway, read the interview in full here: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/...-accessibility-and-competitive-audiences.aspx

Garf02 · Feb 10, 2018

Dary said:
The whole "video games and anime aren't real and nobody in the real world would be influenced by them" spiel falls kinda flat in the face of selfie beautification filters pushing further and further into "make yourself look like a cartoon character" territory...

I apologize before hand but this reminded me of this

Back to topic, as with everything, part of the blame also fall upon the way a person is riased, unless is rather isoleted scenario, a person taught the difference between reality and fiction should be able to see pieces lf media and know what yo learn from and what not... on the sad part this might also be a problem as the latest generation (late 80 to moder time) are being raised by tv and internet cause parent are out working or whatever, so without the proper guidance it can lead to bluring the line between reallity and fiction for early kids.

Tl:dr: material is only bad of there is not a proper guidance and taught to separate reallity from fiction

Zafir · Feb 10, 2018

Lime said:
Imran did a nice interview on Game Informer with Yasuyuki Oda on SNK Heroines' Sexualization:

I wonder about Khan's facial expression during this exchange :lol Anyway, read the interview in full here: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/...-accessibility-and-competitive-audiences.aspx

So, we'll feel ashamed for our words and deeds? lol

I feel like their definition of elegant is way different to mine.

Garf02 · Feb 10, 2018

Zafir said:
I feel like their definition of elegant is way different to mine.

Victorian era elegant type??

Shingi_70 · Feb 10, 2018

I don't really see much difference in fiction/real life when it comes to certain topics and i'd wager your average person thinks the same. I guess it's dependent on person, I know a guy irl who's not attracted to real women and only attracted to anime or 2D women.

Garf02 · Feb 10, 2018

Shingi_70 said:
I know a guy irl who's not attracted to real women and only attracted to anime or 2D women.

And those are likely the oddballs not the norm

RM8 · Feb 10, 2018

Pervy middle aged man said:
There's a reason they're wearing these costumes. They're not just wearing these costumes because we wanted them to.

Ahaha okay. Since they're not fooling anyone it'd be less dumb to simply admit they're going after that waifu demographic.

Shingi_70 · Feb 10, 2018

Garf02 said:
And those are likely the oddballs not the norm

true, but going on a few anime/gaming discords and subreddits, i sometimes wonder.

I had a discussion online with someone and they were defending Loli and other similar western artist without batting an eye.

Garf02 · Feb 10, 2018

Shingi_70 said:
true, but going on a few anime/gaming discords and subreddits, i sometimes wonder.

I had a discussion online with someone and they were defending Loli and other similar western artist without batting an eye.

Not focusing only on loli but when you start to ban fiction material, where is the line drawn? Right now is "we will remover any depiction of unreal underage" and that is valid, but it also open the game to plausible keep the ball rolling for whatever future people get a distaste towards

Xaszatm · Feb 10, 2018

Garf02 said:
Victorian era elegant type??

Actually that brings up another point that annoys me, the lolita fashion. Are, in other words, why is it called that? Like, why would you name your fashion after a book famous for its child sex story? Especially since the fashion itself has little to no relationship to the novel. The lolita designs are designs I would actually love to see in video games though. Like look at this:

This stuff looks great! Why is it tied to a book about child sex?

Deleted member 4037 · Feb 10, 2018

Xaszatm said:
Actually that brings up another point that annoys me, the lolita fashion. Are, in other words, why is it called that? Like, why would you name your fashion after a book famous for its child sex story? Especially since the fashion itself has little to no relationship to the novel. The lolita designs are designs I would actually love to see in video games though. Like look at this:

This stuff looks great! Why is it tied to a book about child sex?

I think it was just a coincidence, the term was never meant to be tied to the book. Sounds like a cultural disconnect if anything

Garf02 · Feb 10, 2018

Wikipedia

. The first known use of the term "lolita" as a Japanese subculture was in the September 1987 issue of Ryukou Tsushin, a Japanese fashion magazine.[7] However, the origin of the term's meaning is complex and remains unclear.[8] Though the word "lolita" carries a different context in the Western world, it widely agreed upon by many familiar with the history of the fashion that this context was not intended to be applied to the fashion.

esserius · Feb 10, 2018

Lime said:
Imran did a nice interview on Game Informer with Yasuyuki Oda on SNK Heroines' Sexualization:

I wonder about Khan's facial expression during this exchange :lol Anyway, read the interview in full here: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/...-accessibility-and-competitive-audiences.aspx

Yeesh... talk about the Thermian-ist argument yet.

Xaszatm · Feb 10, 2018

Garf02 said:
Wikipedia

Aigis said:
I think it was just a coincidence, the term was never meant to be tied to the book. Sounds like a cultural disconnect if anything

So why not change the name? I mean, that second outfit is also clearly steampunk influence and the style itself is clearly a victorian + rococo period clothing so why not give it another name not tied down to a controversial name?

cosmicblizzard · Feb 10, 2018

Xaszatm said:
So why not change the name? I mean, that second outfit is also clearly steampunk influence and the style itself is clearly a victorian + rococo period clothing so why not give it another name not tied down to a controversial name?

It says right there the term carries different connotations there. You're not going to see a sense of urgency with changing a term that's been prevalent for 30 years with no pushback.

MattWilsonCSS · Feb 10, 2018

Garf02 said:
Not focusing only on loli but when you start to ban fiction material, where is the line drawn? Right now is "we will remover any depiction of unreal underage" and that is valid, but it also open the game to plausible keep the ball rolling for whatever future people get a distaste towards

Not to step on you here but hasn't Japan already banned child exploitation in manga? It happened a few years ago so I feel like if there was a slippery slope, we'd have seen the slope slipped on by now. It's also kind of amazing that it took so long for it to happen.

esserius · Feb 10, 2018

It'd just be nice to see women wearing clothes again in video games. Seriously.

Xaszatm · Feb 10, 2018

cosmicblizzard said:
It says right there the term carries different connotations there. You're not going to see a sense of urgency with changing a term that's been prevalent for 30 years with no pushback.

And why has the western audience accepted it then? The name is known in the west, even with the unfortunate coincidence happening in Japan. There has been renaming for things with even less justification that this.

Xaszatm · Feb 10, 2018

esserius said:
It'd just be nice to see women wearing clothes again in video games. Seriously.

We can't have that! Men's rights for titty clearly comes first before any consideration of what women want!

/s

Yeah, it'd be nice.

cosmicblizzard · Feb 10, 2018

MattWilsonCSS said:
Not to step on you here but hasn't Japan already banned child exploitation in manga?

Nope. The Tokyo Metropolitan Ordinance only makes it so magazines and tankobons like that must be kept in a different section in stores than in the main area. It outlaws minors being able to get a hold of it, not selling it altogether.

MattWilsonCSS · Feb 10, 2018

cosmicblizzard said:
Nope. The Tokyo Metropolitan Ordinance only makes it so magazines and tankobons like that must be kept in a different section in stores than in the main area. It outlaws minors being able to get a hold of it, not selling it altogether.

Yipes, cripes.

cosmicblizzard · Feb 10, 2018

Xaszatm said:
And why has the western audience accepted it then? The name is known in the west, even with the unfortunate coincidence happening in Japan. There has been renaming for things with even less justification that this.

Respect for the naming in the original culture I guess? The women I know that are into goth loli fashion never really questioned the term.

GraphicViolets · Feb 10, 2018

Garf02 said:
Wikipedia

funny enough from wikipedia:

"ロリ" ("loli") is a Japanese slang word that means "little girl" and refers to any female, typically adolescent, with a childlike or youthful appearance. The word is contracted from "ロリータ" ("lolita"), which originated from the novel entitled Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov. Lolis are central to lolicon subculture.

Beef Stallmer · Feb 10, 2018

This is why I like video games in space; everyone is essentially using a non-binary space suit. And a bikini space suit would look ridiculous to even the most pubescent males, so nobody ever goes there.

Xaszatm · Feb 10, 2018

cosmicblizzard said:
Respect for the naming in the original culture I guess? The women I know that are into goth loli fashion never really questioned the term.

I mean, these are non-answers. Answers that only technically answer my question without going into the actual substance of why. What am I suppose to say here? "Hm yes, you are right, clearly this name, which is derived from loli which itself is derived from said Lolita book, is a fine name for a fashion style that shares no similarities to its etymology"? Because you're really not doing anything here.

cosmicblizzard · Feb 10, 2018

MattWilsonCSS said:
Yipes, cripes.

It should be noted that the ENTIRE manga industry came out against the bill. Shueisha/Shounen Jump, Kodansha, etc. If you read manga, your favorite creator was staunchly opposed to that bill to the point many flat out boycotted Comiket that year.

Xaszatm · Feb 10, 2018

cosmicblizzard said:
It should be noted that the ENTIRE manga industry came out against the bill. Shueisha/Shounen Jump, Kodansha, etc. If you read manga, your favorite creator was staunchly opposed to that bill to the point many flat out boycotted Comiket that year.

...your point?

cosmicblizzard · Feb 10, 2018

Xaszatm said:
I mean, these are non-answers. Answers that only technically answer my question without going into the actual substance of why. What am I suppose to say here? "Hm yes, you are right, clearly this name, which is derived from loli which itself is derived from said Lolita book, is a fine name for a fashion style that shares no similarities to its etymology"? Because you're really not doing anything here.

Well yeah, because I have no answer. All I can give is anecdotes and possible reasons. Above all else, it seems people just don't care, and at this point it's too normalized for anyone to actually ask for change.

Xaszatm said:
...your point?

That the kind of pushback it saw was pretty unprecedented, so I don't think anyone should get their hopes up for it changing any time soon if ever. That side of the doujinshi market and even a portion of the mainstream market is way too big to fall.

CannonFodder52 · Feb 10, 2018

Garf02 said:
I apologize before hand but this reminded me of this

This image is odd as it seems to present the argument that the feminist folks are unaware or inattentive to the pressures and potentially troubling concept of masculinity that's being pushed on young boys. Where in reality that's a topic that seems to be heavily discussed by those specific people.

Edit: Not saying there is anything wrong with He-Man or whatever, just remarking on the image.

Dice · Feb 10, 2018

cosmicblizzard said:
It should be noted that the ENTIRE manga industry came out against the bill. Shueisha/Shounen Jump, Kodansha, etc. If you read manga, your favorite creator was staunchly opposed to that bill to the point many flat out boycotted Comiket that year.

I'm an artist too, maybe not a manga artist, but I do get the ideas to have freedom of expression and creativity.

But I think the mileage on that starts running out when again and again a lot of it is to defend really creepy designs and often at the expense of one sex, and often with other strange conditions attached.

I mean, what the fuck with the two end designs here (and yeah, lady behind the red cape is wearing basically JUST a thong) (and seriously can this get any more comical with how dressed-up the fellas are by comparison?).

What's the point of this? Is it cool? is it enticing?? Is it necessary? I mean, I guess that's subjective, but still...yikes.

esserius · Feb 10, 2018

Dice said:
I'm an artist too, maybe not a manga artist, but I do get the ideas to have freedom of expression and creativity.

But I think the mileage on that starts running out when again and again a lot of it is to defend really creepy designs and often at the expense of one sex, and often with other strange conditions attached.

I mean, what the fuck with the two end designs here (and yeah, lady behind the red cape is wearing basically JUST a thong) (and seriously can this get any more comical with how dressed-up the fellas are by comparison?).

What's the point of this? Is it cool? is it enticing?? Is it necessary? I mean, I guess that's subjective, but still...yikes.

I'm sure it's because women breathe through their skin in-universe.

Xaszatm · Feb 10, 2018

Dice said:
I'm an artist too, maybe not a manga artist, but I do get the ideas to have freedom of expression and creativity.

But I think the mileage on that starts running out when again and again a lot of it is to defend really creepy designs and often at the expense of one sex, and often with other strange conditions attached.

I mean, what the fuck with the two end designs here (and yeah, lady behind the red cape is wearing basically JUST a thong) (and seriously can this get any more comical with how dressed-up the fellas are by comparison?).

What's the point of this? Is it cool? is it enticing?? Is it necessary? I mean, I guess that's subjective, but still...yikes.

Another artist who confuses me, the artist behind the Disgaea franchise, Takehito Harada, who will seemingly alternate between giving women full gown-like outfits...and loli bait.

Garf02 · Feb 10, 2018

MattWilsonCSS said:
Not to step on you here but hasn't Japan already banned child exploitation in manga?

soft banned, depending on the book, its placed on the +18 ID required section on bookstores

cosmicblizzard said:
That the kind of pushback it saw was pretty unprecedented

this actually goes back to my point, the reason it was so heavily opposed was cause it was loosely worded, and was made a case on case regulation ( there was no defined parameters, they will just hand pick which series were regulated) so many feared they would over step.
So far the regulation is deemed a joke.

cosmicblizzard · Feb 10, 2018

Dice said:
I'm an artist too, maybe not a manga artist, but I do get the ideas to have freedom of expression and creativity.

I mean that's kind of what the logic was for the industry. It stops there. Regardless of worrying trends, regardless of a lack of variety, regardless of all that; it all came down to letting artists do whatever the hell they wanted. And in a creator-owned industry like manga as opposed to more corporate-owned ones, that's exactly what they're doing. Stuff looking stupid (which I agree with in your example) didn't really enter the conversation.

Redcrayon · Feb 10, 2018

Garf02 said:
Not focusing only on loli but when you start to ban fiction material, where is the line drawn? Right now is "we will remover any depiction of unreal underage" and that is valid, but it also open the game to plausible keep the ball rolling for whatever future people get a distaste towards

I think we can leave the concern for the 'thin edge of the wedge' for a topic other than sexualised depictions of children.

Reddit already removes porn and a wide variety of other stuff as is their remit as a publisher with no obligation to host anything they don't want to, they just clarified their policy to include sexualised depictions of kids. If, elsewhere, people develop a distaste of something else (let's say a ridiculous call to completely ban all depictions of sexualised adults for example), let's treat that as something on a different spectrum rather than encourage sexualised depictions of kids to be seen as just ammunition in the wider discussion of censorship. I'm sure there are people who would love their passion for 'depictions of sexualised children' in whatever art style to be able to hide within the far more valid, palatable and defensible concern about censorship of niche/fetish/pornographic material, that's why I don't think it should be part of the same conversation.

As an aside, it's obviously meant to cover a wide variety of other fictionalised depictions of/art of sexualised children too including abhorrent stuff designed to look as realistic as possible but still operating under the exact same defence used for anime-style depictions of 'it's just fiction'. Anime depictions of it isn't the only art style out there, it's just going to be the loudest subset arguing for its merits. Without realising that by arguing 'it's just fantasy fiction!' with blinkers on because they only consume cartoons/games and see depictions of sexualised children/adolescents in skimpy attire as cute rather than harmful, they've been using/enabling the same defence as a lot of particularly vile depictions. 'Thin end of the wedge' indeed.

To be honest, I think it's more reinforcement of a wider policy of Reddit banning anything 'NSFW' because of its massive commercial interests and effectively being a huge publisher- it's visible, wealthy and an obvious target for both legal action and clients wondering what on earth a huge private company is doing hosting all that shit. It'll all just eventually end up on a smaller board somewhere rather than having the cover of legitimacy by being hosted on the biggest discussion forum on the planet.

Tizoc · Feb 10, 2018

I keep imaging SNK heroines as instead of using fanservice pandering outfits, they could've gone for some fashion model dresses, etc.

Garf02 · Feb 10, 2018

Tizoc said:
they could've gone for some fashion model dresses

You will need to be more specific cause Fashion is rather broad

Tizoc · Feb 10, 2018

Garf02 said:
You will need to be more specific cause Fashion is rather broad

lol, weeeeeeeeeeeeell think this alt. outfit for Rose from SF4 and work your way from there

Like a mix of fancy dresses+fashionwear.

petran79 · Feb 10, 2018

Tizoc said:
I keep imaging SNK heroines as instead of using fanservice pandering outfits, they could've gone for some fashion model dresses, etc.

Them's Fighting Herds taught Japanese games a lesson, especially if you own GG Xrd, Blazblue and Skullgirls. Instead of sexualizing, bronifying is the best answer

http://store.steampowered.com/app/574980/Thems_Fightin_Herds/

Tizoc · Feb 10, 2018

petran79 said:
Them's Fighting Herds taught Japanese games a lesson, especially if you own GG Xrd, Blazblue and Skullgirls. Instead of sexualizing, bronifying is the best answer

http://store.steampowered.com/app/574980/Thems_Fightin_Herds/

All I see are cute cartoony animals duking it out 2D fighting game style.

petran79 · Feb 10, 2018

Tizoc said:
All I see are cute cartoony animals duking it out 2D fighting game style.

Now that I've seen this, I want MLP versions of fighting game characters

psychowave · Feb 10, 2018

Garf02 said:
I apologize before hand but this reminded me of this

this pic is so goddamn fucking stupid that I can physically feel my brain cells dying the longer I look at it

EDIT: okay I've recovered from this stupidity, and to elaborate on what Red has said below, there's also a big difference in what boys and girls are encouraged to become through these toys. Boys are encouraged to become fighters: strong, brave, dependable. Girls are encouraged to become models: stick-thin, decorative, shallow. While both of these ideals have problematic elements, the roles that we force on boys at least encompass a series of positive traits. Being a strong and brave hero is awesome. Being a glorified coat hanger is lame as fuck.

Xaszatm · Feb 10, 2018

psychowave said:
this pic is so goddamn fucking stupid that I can physically feel my brain cells dying the longer I look at it

Yeah, that meme is...problematic to say the least.

Redcrayon · Feb 10, 2018

psychowave said:
this pic is so goddamn fucking stupid that I can physically feel my brain cells dying the longer I look at it

The idiots who create shit like that again manage to conveniently ignore absolutely all context while knowing and caring absolutely fuck-all about buying clothes and toys for kids.

Here's a similar example to what I'm confronted with when I take my daughter to a toy shop:

And here's what the boys section looks like:

It's just fucking appalling, even aside from boys getting the power-fantasy action figures and construction vehicles and nerf kit for outdoor play, just look at the colour spectrum. Boys get all the primary colours, girls get one passive colour with light blue or purple as a spot colour if they are lucky. As a graphic designer I find it bloody weird, as a dad I find it disgusting. You can repeat that when buying clothes for toddlers up to pre-teens too.

I had He-man figures as a kid, they didn't limit my play options or imagination because I also had a wide variety of toys and clothes advertised to boys that weren't just about one body type with a passive colour palette and an obsession with beauty.

When I was seven years old (around 1985), the biggest thing for boys was Transformers, powerful robots than turned into everything from cars, planes and construction vehicles to dinosaurs, insects and tape players. He-man was distinctly second-rate in terms of influence, but I suppose a picture of Optimus Prime in truck mode wouldn't quite make the same argument of what an idealised body image for kids is :D

Weltall Zero · Feb 10, 2018

Oda (SNK Girls Dev) said:
and we feel like we are able to cull the people that would bash this game for there being too much exposure.

What the hell does this even mean?

Oda (SNK Girls Dev) said:
There's a reason they're wearing these costumes. They're not just wearing these costumes because we wanted them to. There's a full story behind it which we can't really go into details about at this moment, but if you play the story I think our fans would better understand why they were put in this situation. We made an effort to make sure the image of our characters will stay the same, even after people play this game.

Yeah, fuck your "words and deeds" argument.

It really says a lot about the incredible disconnect these Japanese devs have with the real world when they try to push such a hilariously flimsy argument, even after the ridicule that Kojima doing the exact same merited.

RM8 said:
You know, western games are obviously not above trashy pandering, but I do wish we could have more western fighting games. MK, Injustice, and KI have sexy designs, but that's not the only kind of design they have, and it's sad but it feels refreshing nowadays.

To be fair MK9 was absolutely disastrous in terms of female sexualization. I never played MX10 so I don't know if it got better.

Garf02 said:
Not focusing only on loli but when you start to ban fiction material, where is the line drawn? Right now is "we will remover any depiction of unreal underage" and that is valid, but it also open the game to plausible keep the ball rolling for whatever future people get a distaste towards

Yeah, I'm going to go with "please don't make transparent slippery slope arguments, especially regarding the banning of child sexualization."

Redcrayon · Feb 10, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
What the hell does this even mean?

Yeah, that's bizarre. Do they mean 'If we make it really creepy, the people who buy a merely slightly-creepy game and then complain won't buy it' :D

It really says a lot about the incredible disconnect these Japanese devs have with the real world when they try to push such a hilariously flimsy argument, even after the ridicule that Kojima doing the exact same merited.

Yeah, that 'it's not just us putting them in these outfits, the story demands it!' is almost like hiding behind a huge monolith with 'the story has a life of its own, the authors aren't responsible for it' written on it. By 'us' presumably they aren't including the game's writer as part of the dev team. It's really weird.

Platy · Feb 10, 2018

Lime said:
Imran did a nice interview on Game Informer with Yasuyuki Oda on SNK Heroines' Sexualization:

I wonder about Khan's facial expression during this exchange :lol Anyway, read the interview in full here: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/...-accessibility-and-competitive-audiences.aspx

1) It is kinda scary how they don't think those costumes are objectifying
2) It is SO EASY for the CREATORS excuse to be "because I wrote that way"

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

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