In that specific context, no, since that's an awkward conversation derailer.
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"Gaming Culture" is toxic - Gamers AREN'T Good
- Thread starter guek
- Start date
You're on Era's gaming specific forum of 12,000 threads, you can find a handful to back up just about any claim to what 'gamers' think if the thoughts of a dozen posters out of Era's 35k members is all you need. That doesn't make it representative of everyone on Era, which itself is nowhere near being representative of gaming's communities as a whole. Era is tiny and one of the more progressive communities, of course you'll find more threads like, er, this one here. That doesn't mean that gamers are somehow introspective when even on a more progressive site like this even the idea of self-examination meets such resistance.
My issue with 'gamer' has been from the very start of the term's use - the corporate-branding association. It was Hello Fellow Kids before Hello Fellow Kids, I don't expect people to agree on everything when discussing the word, but at the very least we should be able to agree on when, where and how it was coined.
The fact that literally every single gaming forum on the Internet is a cesspool of racism sexism Transphobia and socially inept misanthropes is plenty proof
Also the fact that literally the only major, well known group claiming to be speaking for the community is a sexist harassment campaign.
Besides on message boards and in news articles, I really can't think of an example in which calling someone a gamer would come up aside from an example like that.
^
This is the gamer persecution complex I was talking about earlier.
This line right here is the inherent flaw in the argument (from both sides of the fence) and why our political polarizing with race, gender, sex, everything has gotten WORSE in the last 5 years as opposed to better. The strain between all of these "groups" is getting worse and worse, and we ourselves are creating a growing divide that if we aren't careful can take us back to the dark days of our history. The irony is, all of this stems from your paragraph quoted, everyone overreacts, and uses generalized group terms to justify their actions. BlackLivesMatter, gamergate, BlueLivesMatter, etc etc. The problem IS NOT with the pushback groups. The problem is that people felt the need to START them in the first place. We as a society really need to get away from these catchy group tags as we are simply dividing ourselves.
Take for instance Black Lives Matter. A group started on completely fantastic ideologies and put into motion things that NEEDED to be understood in our country. Not because they were NEW issues mind you, but because many people don't either understand, or don't live it on a daily basis. All is well and good, until a few cops get killed by people claiming to be part of the movement, only later to find out that wasn't the case. People USED a general group moniker to justify actions. Guess what the next step is? OTHER people, who didn't even know what that movement was about, now HATE that group, blame it for horrible things, and CREATE a push back group. In all honesty, if honest cops die and people want to start a group over it, who are you to say that's wrong? The group was created because of people taking advantage over generalization. NOW they become a bigger problem (the BlueLivesMatter) than they were before. They are more angry, more determined. And the feeling gets reciprocated on the other side and we end up where we are today. All cops are bad, and all black people created their own issues. Neither one is right, both are OUTRAGEOUS ideologies. But now this is what we've created. Now the good intentions of BLM are gone. Out the window. And blue lives matter looks silly and unneeded. No progress has been made because we aren't focusing on the damn problem, but on the groups.
And instead of stopping this debacle, we as humans decide we need more labels. More groups. More generalizations. So that way when someone says or does something, we can condemn and group them up with a WHOLE group. Because if it's a WHOLE group opposed to ONE individual, we are justified in our over reactions. So now we have Alt.Right, metoo, etc etc. These movements are started out of anger, rage, revenge.
You say over and over in your rant that ALL GAMERS AREN'T BAD, and that WE ALREADY KNOW THIS. But your arguments throughout continue to point to generalizations and lumping of groups. It doesn't matter that we KNOW all gamers aren't bad, all black people aren't criminals, all white people aren't racist. It doesn't matter because if you don't align perfectly with other people's views, you will inherently get lumped into an opposing group. Because it makes it easier for you to keep track of people in your head on message boards that way. The REALLY scary thing is, now for people to label you part of a group such as the Alt Right, you don't even have to know them. They don't even have to agree with the alt right in any way, but you can still be labeled alt right because you don't do exactly as others think you should. Just as I see so many white people lump people in to BLM SIMPLY BECAUSE WE THINK COPS CAN BE BAD AND AREN'T ALL HEROES. It is an EXTREMELY toxic environment we've created for ourselves. Knowing all cops aren't good is FUCKING COMMON SENSE. But common sense doesn't matter, because you have to be all in on these beliefs, or you are the enemy.
We have been resorting more and more to over generalizations and over reactions as a society in the past few years. And the frustrating thing is that THIS IS WHAT STARTED AND CAUSED RACISM AND SEXISM IN THE FIRST PLACE. Just because you do it out of "good" or what you think is right does not make it OK. You tear down all reasoning, all potential lines of communication, and all possibilities of reaching any level of understanding between people. Push back groups don't start because people think ALL gamers or ALL cops are bad. They are started because they KNOW they aren't, but the communication has been that they are the enemy, because people decided to coin a term and lump everyone together. They do it because we decided to make people feel threatened and in danger, because WE felt this way. And now here we are. Progressiveness ended in the 90s/early 2000s. We as a species were moving towards great things. But somewhere along the line we decided to stop progressing, draw our lines, and go to war with each other. Now our forward progress has halted and even regressed in some ways.
I really like the OT you laid out, guek , and I echo the same sentiments myself. I made a post a while back on a similar topic that I want to bring up:
As I've been thinking on this, I had a thought. Maybe this line of egocentric thinking that many gamers seem to share may be partially due to the interactivity of the medium itself. I think that, coupled with the ways that gaming used to be heavily derided as an art-form to the dismay of fans, are a big reason that these massive push-backs to any and all critiques of the culture at large happen and are as big as they are.
But then again, that's just a theory...
I do think that a big reason why push-back campaigns like #GamersAreGood or #NotYourShield are so prevalent in the gaming community is because of how prone to egocentricity many self proclaimed gamers seem to be. As I said it's all circumstantial, but I see it far more often in gaming communities than I do others.
As I've been thinking on this, I had a thought. Maybe this line of egocentric thinking that many gamers seem to share may be partially due to the interactivity of the medium itself. I think that, coupled with the ways that gaming used to be heavily derided as an art-form to the dismay of fans, are a big reason that these massive push-backs to any and all critiques of the culture at large happen and are as big as they are.
But then again, that's just a theory...
A Theory About Video Games™
;)
;)
Sure, you're mostly right. Unless someone just said "Are you a gamer?"
I on the other hand, don't give a shit.
id derail the fuck out of that conversation and tell them bluntly I'm not a gamer.
But you play games.
Yup.
But you are not a gamer.
Nope.
But even that becomes kinda awkward with "I wouldn't say I'm a gamer, I like video games, I dislike that term." type of responses.
I'd rather just say "Yeah, I like video games, what's up?"
I honestly do not believe there is an issue with most of the people from the gaming community that I've seen on the internet, acknowledging that toxicity exists in the gaming culture and needs to be addressed. Most of us seem to agree on that. Where we disagree is the need to make generalizations about all gamers in order to raise awareness on the issue. I think this thread itself is demonstration on the willingness to accept that it's an issue while still distinguishing it from the hobby itself.
What's important now is to take appropriate measures to report issues when they crop up and also implement ways to encourage equality and inclusivity. Declaring that gamers are miscreants, however, solves nothing.
You're so close to pinpointing the one specific group of people that is the outlier in literally all of these cases.
I would say most gamers generally don't care about self-awareness, and are transphobic, homophobic, racist, sexist, etc. etc. but then again, most people are. I like this forum so much because a lot of people here are very compassionate and I believe this forum tries to bring out the best in people and, as a result, brings out the best in gamers.
I'm willing to use the "gamer" tag for the reason that for a long time i didn't feel I could. I didn't play enough games, or wasn't knowledgeble enough or was just a girl faking being a gamer. So yeah, I use the term gamer, as I'm fed up with having to go through some stupid rules to prove I am. I can understand why some wouldn't find it comfortable though.
Oh no man. No.
I mean you're right, and that was the original reason I never identified with this term before the whole corporate culture fuckbomb brought out the deplorables.
But no, facts do not matter. Thats fake news man.
Trust me, I know. But then, that group wasn't so much created by those people as it was LABELED by those who despised those ideologies. Which goes back to what I was saying. In a sense, we DID create "that group." (just to be clear, I am assuming you were referring to the alt right).
Seems to me like a lot of the problem stems from people identifying as their hobby and taking anything said negatively about said hobby or anyone who shares it as a personal attack against them.
I mean, I'm a gamer, as its one of my primary hobbies/things I do by choice in my own time. Its not my identity, its not all that I am. I think too many people who play games make it their identity.
I mean, I'm a gamer, as its one of my primary hobbies/things I do by choice in my own time. Its not my identity, its not all that I am. I think too many people who play games make it their identity.
No. We identified it.
We didnt create it, it existed before we pointed it out.
It didnt magically materialize the moment we pointed.
Maybe I'm confused by all the vague wording in this conversation, but the alt right labelled themselves, as the point was to create a softer rebranding of Neo-Nazism. Everyone knows that the Nazis are the bad guys. But presenting them as just a legitimate alternative to the right wing establishment allows them to be more palatable in normal society.
We literally have proof in the form of gamergate of the toxicity specifically in gaming yet we have people coming in here acting like gaming has nothing to do with this.
Like come on people!
Like come on people!
I mean we had gamers harassing,doxing and sending death threats to developers even before gamergates (and women devs tend to get more abuse) and people have defended that shit for years. Gaming has had a toxic element for so long, the fact we are still debating it is ridiculous.
I don't think anyone is going "Gamergate has okay people in it."
Hell, I think most people here are coming from a good place, and sometimes arguing the same point. The resounding sound is "No fuck those guys" the debate around that however is "Not everyone is terrible" and "you don't need to say that, we know, just say that some are terrible."
Gaming is a sedentary and largely solitary activity.
So it ends up attracting a lot of unhappy, unhealthy and socially maladjusted individuals. A lot of those people will be basically decent folks just trying to get by and have a bit of fun. But enough of them will be bitter and hostile for you to notice.
Couple that with "gaming culture" being joined at the hip with the internet and you have an environment where such people can sling their shit at anyone in range with little or no consequence.
That's my theory anyway.
So it ends up attracting a lot of unhappy, unhealthy and socially maladjusted individuals. A lot of those people will be basically decent folks just trying to get by and have a bit of fun. But enough of them will be bitter and hostile for you to notice.
Couple that with "gaming culture" being joined at the hip with the internet and you have an environment where such people can sling their shit at anyone in range with little or no consequence.
That's my theory anyway.
My guess is that swatting, slurs and other abuse flung around during online gaming, and the entity of Gamergate generate as many or fewer kilotoxijoules than other hobbies.
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There isnt much of a topic, otherwise. The sweeping generalization and the semantics of the label are the conversation, otherwise it's a bunch of people bemoaning the sole existence of regressives without any sort of solution or progression of the topic.
People aren't good, no this isn't a personal attack against you, I see no point in labeling "gamers" as it only leads to silliness like people who play games not wanting to be called gamers. That some jackasses, or tons of jackasses, out there call themselves gamers doesn't make it about gaming, it's about the jackasses and what they're allowed to get away with in society at large. They also have jobs, families, and so on, this doesn't mean "people with jobs are toxic" or "people with families are toxic" and I really don't think you can fix gaming without fixing society at large as it's only a subset of it and not one that is more egregious from what I can see personally, I mean, far right is on the rise in many parts of the world and tons of those jerks don't game at all, rather prefer beating women, immigrants, the weaker or the less in numbers in general, while pretending to be soldiers for a just cause. I mean, if our Golden Dawn members or other jerks start playing Counter-Strike to recruit young ones I'm not gonna say it's a game problem, it's a society problem and Golden Dawn should be fought offline as well as online. Also, games aren't only online, why would the millions of people who play Elder Scrolls or whatever else in single player in peace without bothering anyone be labeled as toxic because a subset of games allow a subset of people to be jerks to others? It doesn't help anyone to point fingers at something vague like that instead of fixing the root of the problem. Then again that probably will end up being capitalism and nobody wants to give that up, lol, everyone is more than happy to allow the rich to become richer and the weak to become weaker...
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Why are the American's on here allowed to act like theirs is the only nation on Earth?
Do you really think gamers in Lebanon, Suriname or Switzerland have even thought about whatever you American's are fighting about? Do they and the rest of us gamers outside the US deserve to be attacked as "toxic"?
Do you really think gamers in Lebanon, Suriname or Switzerland have even thought about whatever you American's are fighting about? Do they and the rest of us gamers outside the US deserve to be attacked as "toxic"?
There's this thing called the internet which lets different gamers all round the world harass, dox, send death threats to women, LGBT, POC and devs and these include gamers that are outside the US. Apparently the world is filled with assholes - who knew?
Because your in Europe, you can't be a racist against "paki's" online or whatever nonsense? You can't be a sexist against women and deride what they see as social rights issues? You can't be apart of the problem as a human being with flaws? How cute.
Case in point is the creative director of one particular game that has been getting a lot of attention recently from Europe. But according to you he cant exist because "he's not American so he can't be racist, sexist, homophobic". That's actually quite nonsensical of a viewpoint to have.
Online, gamer culture is definitely toxic.
I mean it's not like this forum is any better really - sure, generally we are more progressive here in our views here (a very good thing), but if we don't engage controversial topics in a constructive manner and assume that everyone outside the consensus is acting in bad faith then we are just contributing to the problem (see the recent GDC Nolan Bushel thread for an example).
Even if we just look at the game only threads that aren't political we often see a general air of negativity. Phrases like "hot garbage", "mediocre" are used instead of genuine critiques of games - it's mean spirited, unwelcoming and there's really no need for it.
I mean it's not like this forum is any better really - sure, generally we are more progressive here in our views here (a very good thing), but if we don't engage controversial topics in a constructive manner and assume that everyone outside the consensus is acting in bad faith then we are just contributing to the problem (see the recent GDC Nolan Bushel thread for an example).
Even if we just look at the game only threads that aren't political we often see a general air of negativity. Phrases like "hot garbage", "mediocre" are used instead of genuine critiques of games - it's mean spirited, unwelcoming and there's really no need for it.
Yeah, I tried to get some people to register here because they were looking for a new forum, but, and I quote "I don't want to join Hot Takes: The Forum"."
The true gamer™ is definitely a whole big can of worms.
Internet.
I hate as a community how we treat devs. There's ways of critiqueing work without being nasty, and in all honesty I think it heavily contributes to the toxicity of gamer culture.
Better to shitpost there and keep the constructive conversations happening here, which you seem to be against. *shrug*
Yeah...
I'm guilty of it myself sometimes. It really isn't a good look. I definitely think that we as a community need to tone down on this front. That, and the massive use of hyperbole.
Guys.
Don't ignore bad content or behaviour, such as bigotry, sexism, or racism. Call it the fuck out.
And lead by example, by trying your darndest not to behave badly or create bad content.
This is simple. And solves a lot of the issues we face today.
But it's also the most difficult thing in the world, because it requires people to change their thought processes, and that is legitimately a difficult process.
But it's well worth the effort, I think.
Don't ignore bad content or behaviour, such as bigotry, sexism, or racism. Call it the fuck out.
And lead by example, by trying your darndest not to behave badly or create bad content.
This is simple. And solves a lot of the issues we face today.
But it's also the most difficult thing in the world, because it requires people to change their thought processes, and that is legitimately a difficult process.
But it's well worth the effort, I think.
I'm not gonna insult your intelligence by assuming you're unaware of the huge impact straight white cis men have had on the world and all these issues we're always fighting about.
Besides, respectfully, I wasn't even talking to you, and that post was a clarification for someone who wasn't sure what group I was talking about. I've said plenty of other things in the last few pages that you're free to keep ignoring.
If you think most seem to agree then I don't really know what your issue is with the thread to begin with.
You're thinking that we're targeting individuals rather than the culture. But this is also part of the problem. The culture is not a single person, it is communal behavior. And that communal behavior, or in this case communal apathy, is a huge part of the problem, and why the culture is so toxic. No supporting voices against people being assholes - just acceptance or silence. These are the problems. And they're prevalent in all of gaming culture, frequently even here, where we talk about being progressive.
All those problems - the associated communal behavior, all weigh down on individuals and contribute to the problem on a larger scale. What's more is that the assholes are also very welcoming to other assholes (as long as everyone's being an asshole, that is).