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Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,450
Greater Vancouver
Why are the American's on here allowed to act like theirs is the only nation on Earth?

Do you really think gamers in Lebanon, Suriname or Switzerland have even thought about whatever you American's are fighting about? Do they and the rest of us gamers outside the US deserve to be attacked as "toxic"?
Just because someone hasn't thought about shitty behavior doesn't mean they don't indulge in shitty behavior. These aren't people who are living isolated from the rest of the world. We're talking about people who have access to the internet and are exposed to shit daily, whether they intend to be or not. Racism, sexism, homophobia, harassment... These aren't US exclusive problems.
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
Yeah, I tried to get some people to register here because they were looking for a new forum, but, and I quote "I don't want to join Hot Takes: The Forum"."

This is the main reason i don't really post on the gaming side here. Just trying to have a conversation about a game that doesn't turn toxic is a hard feat.

This is also one of the ways gaming can be toxic. We treat people who make these games like shit sometimes that it's more surprising when it doesn't happen.
 

Gonzalo

Member
Oct 29, 2017
316
There's this thing called the internet which lets different gamers all round the world harass, dox, send death threats to women, LGBT, POC and devs and these include gamers that are outside the US. Apparently the world is filled with assholes - who knew?

The massive majority in these situations are American and you know it.

Because your in Europe, you can't be a racist against "paki's" online or whatever nonsense? You can't be a sexist against women and deride what they see as social rights issues? You can't be apart of the problem as a human being with flaws? How cute.

Case in point is the creative director of one particular game that has been getting a lot of attention recently from Europe. But according to you he cant exist because "he's not American so he can't be racist, sexist, homophobic". That's actually quite nonsensical of a viewpoint to have.

Of course but that stuff is outside of gaming. My reply was about tarring all the world's gamers with the same brush.

I know the director you mean, the one who's made that Knight game, yes he is from Europe but just like Milo Yonopulis (who is British)... his audience and market is the USA.
 

stufte

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
318
I'm not gonna insult your intelligence by assuming you're unaware of the huge impact straight white cis men have had on the world and all these issues we're always fighting about.

Besides, respectfully, I wasn't even talking to you, and that post was a clarification for someone who wasn't sure what group I was talking about. I've said plenty of other things in the last few pages that you're free to keep ignoring.

I mean, you could post that response in TONS of threads, but I'm not sure how it helps or adds to the conversation to say "this race/sex/orientation is the source of all our problems". I respectfully disagree with your assertions in this thread.
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,484
As long as badmouthing people becomes the crux of the approach to addressing the issue of toxicity in the gaming community, I don't think it will ever result in real change. I've already lost interest in this thread as the discourse so far has very little to do with actually resolving the problem.
 

OrangeNova

Member
Oct 30, 2017
12,749
Canada
This is the main reason i don't really post on the gaming side here. Just trying to have a conversation about a game that doesn't turn toxic is a hard feat.

This is also one of the ways gaming can be toxic. We treat people who make these games like shit sometimes that it's more surprising when it doesn't happen.
It's why I have under 300 posts here, I don't come here for other media, mostly I'm here for the canadian deals thread.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,752
Yeah...

I'm guilty of it myself sometimes. It really isn't a good look. I definitely think that we as a community need to tone down on this front. That, and the massive use of hyperbole.
I feel like it's gotten worse. I keep seeing in different games people actively campaigning to get devs fired cus they don't like some work in the game (and I'm just talking they don't like the writing or the gameplay, not sexualisation or shitty stuff like that). I can actually think of about 5 different times I've seen it in the past year. It's horrible.
 

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
I mean, you could post that response in TONS of threads, but I'm not sure how it helps or adds to the conversation to say "this race/sex/orientation is the source of all our problems". I respectfully disagree with your assertions in this thread.
I can understand why you would think something I didn't say wouldn't be helpful considering I didn't say it.

Have fun with that whole privilege thing
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,325
I mean, you could post that response in TONS of threads, but I'm not sure how it helps or adds to the conversation to say "this race/sex/orientation is the source of all our problems". I respectfully disagree with your assertions in this thread.
I dunno if you've watched this, but you should as it addresses most of what you're saying:
 
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Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I know the director you mean, the one who's made that Knight game, yes he is from Europe but just like Milo Yonopulis (who is British)... his audience and market is the USA.
You think there's no audience for games about knights and castles in the dozens of countries that actually had knights and castles?
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,561
I have a hard time seeing how anyone could have a hard time seeing that gaming culture has some major problems.

Go onto any competitive online game, it's practically guaranteed that you'll hear abusive language thrown about within an hour of play. This increases in intensity & frequency if you're not a white male.
Gamergate.
Many of the most popular gaming personalities publicly express horrendous views.
An industry that preys on addictive personality flaws
For goodness sake, this is a culture that decided "Social Justice Warrior" should be considered a slur & not a badge of honor.

And this even manifests in smaller ways. Like just look at any thread based on a Game of the Year list that deviates from the norm. The response is inevitably complaints & comments about how the list is "wrong" for not including the games that they personally have deemed worthy. You rarely hear the more positive & constructive response of "I've never heard of this game, but if someone likes it so much, maybe I should check it out." Same thing with comments on reviews - they're dominated by people telling the reviewer that they're wrong.

And I can't help but think that this is almost inevitable based on the kinds of games that people consume - aggressive, competitive, narcissistic fantasies that frequently feature hyper-violence & sexual content. And by that, I'm not saying that everyone playing these kinds of games is a bad person or even a majority, but rather that it's naïve to think that you can constantly feed this kind of negativity into a culture and it won't have some sort of effect.
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,484
If you think most seem to agree then I don't really know what your issue is with the thread to begin with.

You're thinking that we're targeting individuals rather than the culture. But this is also part of the problem. The culture is not a single person, it is communal behavior. And that communal behavior, or in this case communal apathy, is a huge part of the problem, and why the culture is so toxic. No supporting voices against people being assholes - just acceptance or silence. These are the problems. And they're prevalent in all of gaming culture, frequently even here, where we talk about being progressive.

All those problems - the associated communal behavior, all weigh down on individuals and contribute to the problem on a larger scale. What's more is that the assholes are also very welcoming to other assholes (as long as everyone's being an asshole, that is).

I know it's not about individuals, but it's also not about the collection of individuals, or even the nature of the culture. Gaming, the hobby itself, the interactivity of media, is not toxic. Communities built around that idea does not make them toxic. That doesn't mean that toxicity isn't an issue in the community, but it isn't because the community is a gaming community.
 

DevilPuncher

"This guy are sick" and Aggressively Mediocre
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,776
I feel like it's gotten worse. I keep seeing in different games people actively campaigning to get devs fired cus they don't like some work in the game (and I'm just talking they don't like the writing or the gameplay, not sexualisation or shitty stuff like that). I can actually think of about 5 different times I've seen it in the past year. It's horrible.
Yeah. And one of the worst parts is that this anger is completely misdirected! Devs should not be at the forefront when people get mad at these aspects, ya' know? The vast majority of the time it comes down to upper-level management decisions or crunch.
 

Arkaign

Member
Nov 25, 2017
1,991
As long as badmouthing people becomes the crux of the approach to addressing the issue of toxicity in the gaming community, I don't think it will ever result in real change. I've already lost interest in this thread as the discourse so far has very little to do with actually resolving the problem.

Pretty much. Starting from an attitude of classification, hostility, and insults is basically guaranteed to just join the countless other bile that flies around the internet in general.

People online tend to be ludicrously toxic just in general to begin with regardless of subject or site, or of course in online chat, gaming, streaming, etc.

It's why 'comments are disabled for this' is a common thing now, or just plain nothing at all for a comments section.

Personally, I refuse entirety to engage in insulting or denigrating behavior, and actively avoid participation in online situations where it's a bunch of strangers crapping on one another. My family is more important than online arguments, and life is short.
 

OrangeNova

Member
Oct 30, 2017
12,749
Canada
I can understand why you would think something I didn't say wouldn't be helpful considering I didn't say it.

Have fun with that whole privilege thing
You did say that.

  1. BlacJack gave a thoughtful post about "You're either with us or against us" mentality
  2. You responded that they(BlacJack) are really close to pointing out a specific group that you defined as an outlier in BlacJack's post.
  3. BlacJack responds with "Is it the Alt-Right?" (Assuming that they just hate everyone, 'cause they do)
  4. You respond, sighing, that it's CIS white men.
You actively said that CIS White Men are the problem in communities, based on the comment chain.
 

CrazyHal

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,335
I call bullshit on the "There's good and bad people in the world" and "every community has a good and bad side" excuses. Yes, this is true but let's not pretend like it's not especially bad in the gaming community. When it comes to entertainment communities (Movies, tv shows, sports, card games, literature) the gaming one is by far one of the most toxic if not THE most toxic and that's the cold hard true.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,752
Yeah. And one of the worst parts is that this anger is completely misdirected! Devs should not be at the forefront when people get mad at these aspects, ya' know? The vast majority of the time it comes down to upper-level management decisions or crunch.
Or just that making a game is hard! It doesn't always work out. I don't really see why if you don't like a game, people can't just write a review over what they don't like if they want to and then move on. There's a lot of games out there. No need to waste energy on one you don't like.
 

Green Marine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
324
El Paso
OK? A lot of player bases, sites, Discord communities, etc. are nauseating but nobody needs to subject themselves to things to things they find intolerable for the sake of entertainment products. There are enough games, groups, and communities out there to find what works for you. Unless you're literally tied to a single game as a source of income as a professional player or a title specific streamer, you don't need to be joined at the hip with anything. I drop multiplayer games rather quickly if the player base is a bunch of ass hats. If you're talking about social media abuse, well, that is another topic entirely. People have developed a belief that every difference of opinion, even over relatively minor issues, is worth a battle to the death and consuming your time instead of enjoying life. That aspect of the internet isn't going anywhere.
 

smash_robot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
994
I hate as a community how we treat devs. There's ways of critiqueing work without being nasty, and in all honesty I think it heavily contributes to the toxicity of gamer culture.
Yeah. I agree. It's not all bad, but sometimes I find the level of discourse quite depressing - it makes hard work of threads.

Don't ignore bad content or behaviour, such as bigotry, sexism, or racism. Call it the fuck out.
While I agree with this in general, I do think that we have a tendency to make the worst possible interpretation of what has been posted and dogpile away. Obviously I'm not talking about stuff that's immediately ban-worthy - I'm assuming the mods will just deal with that.
 
Dec 9, 2017
1,431
Seems like a decent hashtag co-opted by the gamers are terrible/gamers are awesome crowd to carry on their terrible twitter war that's been going on for years.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,231
Why are the American's on here allowed to act like theirs is the only nation on Earth?

Do you really think gamers in Lebanon, Suriname or Switzerland have even thought about whatever you American's are fighting about? Do they and the rest of us gamers outside the US deserve to be attacked as "toxic"?

My family left Europe because of the prejudice. You seriously think y'all better?
 

Oynox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
884
That may be true but I do not need to get that rubbed in my face every other time I visit a gaming page on the internet.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,325
I know it's not about individuals, but it's also not about the collection of individuals, or even the nature of the culture. Gaming, the hobby itself, the interactivity of media, is not toxic. Communities built around that idea does not make them toxic. That doesn't mean that toxicity isn't an issue in the community, but it isn't because the community is a gaming community.
Gaming is not a bubble. Nor is the culture it propagates. You seem to not understand this.

And yes, the toxicity gaming communities experience is because they are gaming communities. The toxicity is unique and specific to gaming.
 

stufte

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
318
I can understand why you would think something I didn't say wouldn't be helpful considering I didn't say it.

Maybe I misunderstood your specificity about race/sex/orientation/etc. when replying to the person you replied to?

You're so close to pinpointing the one specific group of people that is the outlier in literally all of these cases.

?

Have fun with that whole privilege thing

Does this invalidate my arguments earlier in the thread?
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I call bullshit on the "There's good and bad people in the world" and "every community has a good and bad side" excuses. Yes, this is true but let's not pretend like it's not especially bad in the gaming community. When it comes to entertainment communities (Movies, tv shows, sports, card games, literature) the gaming one is by far one of the most toxic if not THE most toxic and that's the cold hard true.
This is not really true. You (and all of us here, tbh) are just more immersed in the gaming culture than any other, so the problems of toxicity in the culture are more readily apparent to you.

Just as an example, it is common for sports fans in some places to get into massive brawls or riots when their teams win or lose, or over team rivalries. Sports communities can be incredibly toxic, and have similar issues with misogyny, sexism, racism, etc.

Just because another community has bad aspects doesn't absolve gaming communities of their issues, and anyone suggesting that is ignoring the problem, but suggesting that gaming is uniquely predisposed to problematic elements is just untrue.

Problematic elements in the gaming community may manifest themselves in unique ways, but the root causes are likely similar to the root causes of other problematic elements in other communities.
 

DevilPuncher

"This guy are sick" and Aggressively Mediocre
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,776
Or just that making a game is hard! It doesn't always work out. I don't really see why if you don't like a game, people can't just write a review over what they don't like if they want to and then move on. There's a lot of games out there. No need to waste energy on one you don't like.
Yeah. I think what it really comes down to is just how easy it can be to dunk on a thing. And like, dunking on something can be in good fun and all, but some people can take it too far and that's problematic.
That may be true but I do not need to get that rubbed in my face every other time I visit a gaming page on the internet.
I get where you're coming from, but these things need to be addressed. I'd say that it's a good thing that you're seeing it "every other time you visit a gaming page on the internet" because that's at least a sign that awareness is being raised. Also, if we can't talk about this issue here, where are we supposed to talk about it?
 

Ulairi

Member
Oct 30, 2017
129
There is a social media problem. Social media allows shitty people to be shitty. It allows for stupid hot takes to get way more play than they would otherwise. There isn't any issue with gamers as a whole and if the "community" was so toxic we wouldn't be seeing the growth we've seen over the last two decades since the internet made it so easier for us to be jerks to one and other.

Also I really don't like the term communities. We are customers and developers are businesses trying to make money from selling us more products.

This forum is a community. Video games are products.

Once I deleted my twitter account all of this nonsense went away. Online media thrives on clicks and anger is a great way to drive more clicks.
 

smash_robot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
994
I call bullshit on the "There's good and bad people in the world" and "every community has a good and bad side" excuses. Yes, this is true but let's not pretend like it's not especially bad in the gaming community. When it comes to entertainment communities (Movies, tv shows, sports, card games, literature) the gaming one is by far one of the most toxic if not THE most toxic and that's the cold hard true.

I really really apologize for singling you out, and I feel bad for doing so, but this is the writing style I associate with gaming forums. You may be broadly right in the content, but the tone of this post underpins just how toxic gamer culture can be. It's dismissive, condescending and insulting all in one!
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
There isn't any issue with gamers as a whole

I have a hard time seeing how anyone could have a hard time seeing that gaming culture has some major problems.

Go onto any competitive online game, it's practically guaranteed that you'll hear abusive language thrown about within an hour of play. This increases in intensity & frequency if you're not a white male.
Gamergate.
Many of the most popular gaming personalities publicly express horrendous views.
An industry that preys on addictive personality flaws
For goodness sake, this is a culture that decided "Social Justice Warrior" should be considered a slur & not a badge of honor.

And this even manifests in smaller ways. Like just look at any thread based on a Game of the Year list that deviates from the norm. The response is inevitably complaints & comments about how the list is "wrong" for not including the games that they personally have deemed worthy. You rarely hear the more positive & constructive response of "I've never heard of this game, but if someone likes it so much, maybe I should check it out." Same thing with comments on reviews - they're dominated by people telling the reviewer that they're wrong.

And I can't help but think that this is almost inevitable based on the kinds of games that people consume - aggressive, competitive, narcissistic fantasies that frequently feature hyper-violence & sexual content. And by that, I'm not saying that everyone playing these kinds of games is a bad person or even a majority, but rather that it's naïve to think that you can constantly feed this kind of negativity into a culture and it won't have some sort of effect.
 

ARC-2R

Banned
Jan 11, 2018
769
You did say that.

  1. BlacJack gave a thoughtful post about "You're either with us or against us" mentality
  2. You responded that they(BlacJack) are really close to pointing out a specific group that you defined as an outlier in BlacJack's post.
  3. BlacJack responds with "Is it the Alt-Right?" (Assuming that they just hate everyone, 'cause they do)
  4. You respond, sighing, that it's CIS white men.
You actively said that CIS White Men are the problem in communities, based on the comment chain.


Yea that's what I saw as well.

I just came here to talk about toxicity in gaming, and I end up finding out I'm the source of all evil in the world by being born a straight white male. Go fig.
 

MetalBoi

Banned
Dec 21, 2017
3,176
I honestly don't see how anyone could try to suggest a correlation between toxic gamers and politics. I've seen and heard bad things from a very wide spectrum of gamers: young, old, all races, genders, religions, etc. Most of the vitriol, hate and spite comes from the online multiplayer community, but there is also a lot of it on social media. Anonymity will always bring out the worst in some people, even more so than alcohol.
 

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
Maybe I misunderstood your specificity about race/sex/orientation/etc. when replying to the person you replied to?



?



Does this invalidate my arguments earlier in the thread?
I wasn't trying to say "straight white cis men cause all our problems." Sorry if I was more reductive then I meant to be.

I just think this is a group that needs to educate themselves more.
 

stufte

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
318
I wasn't trying to say "straight white cis men cause all our problems." Sorry if I was more reductive then I meant to be.

I just think this is a group that needs to educate themselves more.

Ah I see.

What should I be educating myself on as it pertains to toxicity in gaming?
 

CrazyHal

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,335
This is not really true. You (and all of us here, tbh) are just more immersed in the gaming culture than any other, so the problems of toxicity in the culture are more readily apparent to you.

Just as an example, it is common for sports fans in some places to get into massive brawls or riots when their teams win or lose, or over team rivalries. Sports communities can be incredibly toxic, and have similar issues with misogyny, sexism, racism, etc.

Just because another community has bad aspects doesn't absolve gaming communities of their issues, and anyone suggesting that is ignoring the problem, but suggesting that gaming is uniquely predisposed to problematic elements is just untrue.

Problematic elements in the gaming community may manifest themselves in unique ways, but the root causes are likely similar to the root causes of other problematic elements in other communities.

I knew someone would bring up sports fans who get into fights. I argue that these people are an extremely small minority. You can't compare that with hundred of thousands of gamers who harassed and say horribly racist, homophobic and sexist things online.

Besides, gamers also get into physical fights. There have been cases of competitive players attacking their opponnent and there's also been cases of gamers trying to kill someone else out of rage for lossing at a game. Oh and let's not forget about the whole "swatting" thing that sometimes happen.

Also, i'm not saying that these problems are unique to the gaming community. What i'm saying is that they have a bigger presence in the gaming community.
 

Acerac

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,218
As long as badmouthing people becomes the crux of the approach to addressing the issue of toxicity in the gaming community, I don't think it will ever result in real change. I've already lost interest in this thread as the discourse so far has very little to do with actually resolving the problem.
The solution is for corporations to give up future sales of microtransactions by banning assholes.

Capitalism demands that these players stay!
 

stufte

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
318
You work with Dragonvale, I'm sure you hear all about toxicity in gaming from your Customer Service Team.

Not a ton, since it's a pretty casual game (though there are some... interesting ones I've seen in the past). Mostly broken parks and refund requests. I love the gamers who play our game.
 

Green Marine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
324
El Paso
Yea that's what I saw as well.

I just came here to talk about toxicity in gaming, and I end up finding out I'm the source of all evil in the world by being born a straight white male. Go fig.

achievement-unlocked-woke-up-today.jpg


Now apologize for liking Bernie Sanders, and your soul will be mended.





I'm joking, sadly a lot of people who say things like this are not.