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Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Sweden
As expected from his comment on Friday's podcast, Austin from Waypoint didn't liked it:

iOs9eJ9.png
Great review
This speaks to a deeper problem, albeit one that emerges from the same central flaw of being stretched too thin: Thematically, Far Cry 5 is such an inconsistent mess of ideas that there is hardly a recognizable through line at all. Instead, the game gestures towards ambiguity as if looking for a shield to save itself with.

This is a game that undeniably knows that Donald Trump is president, but cannot decide if that fact should be punchline or key plot device. When, in two different scenes, cult leaders make oblique references to "America's leadership" or the failures of the person "who's in charge" as proof of the American empire's final days, the game reaches for sincere relevance. But an hour later, you'll be recovering the notorious piss tape from a Russian spy in a pun-filled quest.

In some moments, it feels as if Far Cry 5 wants to take a neutral position and represent some true complexity of rural America. Take, for instance, the fact that various characters will speak to their various opinions about the country's gun culture, with some disappointed in our addiction to assault rifles and others "not getting the big deal" about guns.

Yet when facing more obviously troubling truths, like the racism and xenophobia that swept Trump into office, Far Cry 5 hedges its bets. Mission after mission, NPC after NPC, there is a sense throughout the game that Ubisoft wants to make sure you're laughing along with them regardless of why you're laughing.

In one case, a white quest giver complains asked me if I was "One of those eye-talians," who she was concerned were stealing her jewelry. The joke, of course, is that racism is bad, and that this is a particularly unlikely form of racism, since Italian-Americans have been largely assimilated into white culture. Of course, the truth is that very similar statements are actually made about people of color regularly, especially those in service sector jobs. The irony is that if she'd followed through and said "Hispanics," if there had been no comedy alibi for the racism, the game would have the genuine ability to test what players thought their characters would do. Instead, we got "eye-talians."

Or consider the fact that the surprising racial diversity of the game's cult, which I explored in my interview with creative director Dan Hay last month, means that the Project at Eden's Gate never quite assumes the stature of the primarily white militias that the game's developers heavily emphasized their original pitch. It's a point only further extended by the fact that you work directly for one such militia for a good third of the game, but due to the poor job of characterization and worldbuilding, you never learn what the militia stands for, why it came into being, or what it would be doing if not for the Project at Eden's Gate.

That last question—what would Hope County be if not for the cult?—haunts Far Cry 5, and its inability to address it directly hobbles any meaning that could be gleaned from some of the game's more surprising twists. Which isn't to say that you can't interpret the game's story or that there won't be a million theory videos about what is going to be one of the year's most talked about (and most unearned) endings. But it does mean that any final interpretation wiggles out of grasp, deferred for lack of clarity.

After all, what are we to make of the Project and Eden's Gate, itself? At key moments, when you and the resistance score key blows against them, the game offers us a brief vista of the nearby area, lit by fireworks and decorated by the raising of an American flag waving in the breeze.

Yet Joseph preaches in front of a modified American flag, and the cult's leaders are as American as they come: A business savvy self help guru, a military vet, and a sort of pop-culture-and-drug wielding micro-celebrity. Their entire mobilizing purpose is an anxiety about the collapse of the American system, and the appeal they make for joining the cult is the ability to escape the stress of your daily news feed. Honestly, what could be more American than the Project at Eden's Gate?

Perhaps, in a different game, the message would be clear: You, player, are the agent of the broken status quo. You're the one working for conspiracy theorists who complain about globalists and politicians who grouse about "Obama-loving libtards." You're defending a culture where every member of Hope County has individually invested in a personal bunker that will never be able to provide them a life of safety and comfort, while the Project supports a collectivist vision of survival. The cult is nothing more than a scapegoat, a whipping boy for all of the problems of Hope County and America writ large.

But Far Cry 5 doesn't earn that reading. Instead, this is a game where, in search of shock, one of the cult leader's rips the flesh off of a living victim and staples it to the wall. It's a game that leans all the way into debunked "brainwashing" view of cults, despite Ubisoft hosting interviews with expert consultants who emphasize that cults work through social pressure, not drugs and programming. It's a game that retreats from its own moments of sincerity, which is a shame, because in the rare cases where it spends time with some of its slightly more restrained characters, you can genuinely see what a better version of Far Cry 5 might look like. Instead, we got this version, one wrapped in a safety blanket of disinterest and reference-as-punchline.
Waypoint is killing it right now, imo
 

Nirolak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,660
EDIT: The Division should be added too. An 80 on MC, but has received content updates that has made it a better experience.
I thought I was forgetting something.

I was trying to exclude the cross-gen games since most of those got rated under last generation's review standards, which rated things a bit higher, which is why things like Far Cry 4 and Assassin's Creed 4 are missing.
 

Deleted member 14649

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,524
I wish people could shut the fuck up about the ending and what they think of it when the game is not even out yet.

Absolutely right. Personally I think it should be an auto-ban for anyone spoiling any aspect of a game's ending, especially in a fucking review thread on a gaming-centric forum!
 

Mikebison

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,036
It's not just standard video review information though. Compared to other big reviewers he goes way more in depth on his opinions of say sound design and quality of voice acting.

People like me say his word is gospel because we've largely agreed with him. There are games he says wait for sale I'll still buy because I have nothing else to do but he hasn't really steered me wrong.

Yeah I've watched them before. Splitting up like "right, first up is graphics" just evokes 90's magazine reviews to me, not long format reviews that I'm used to now.

As someone 100% stoked for Far Cry 5 and pre-ordered the gold edition, I watched Karak's video and his negatives seem completely valid. I don't really see the problem, sounds like the AI path finding and responses need fixing and the excessive random encounters that disrupt mission conversations need to be dialed back/corrected.



I played through Elex twice on PC and even bought the PS4 CE when it was on deep discount on Amazon, it's one of my favorites to come out in the last year, but that game has some serious issues, and I would have a hard time recommending it to a large majority of gamers that I know. There's a lot to love there, but you really have to wade through 8+ hours of game play to reach the creamy center, and a large majority of the mainstream audience just wouldn't be down for that IMO.

At the end of the day, whether it's FC5 or Elex, every gamer is going to have a different level of tolerance for what they're willing to put up with, I think Karak tends to err on the side of "wait for these issues to be fixed" in most cases, and that's a good thing.

Games shouldn't come out broken, I think we can all agree on that.

His criticisms are totally valid. As are anyone else. It was more me wondering why people were riding his dick specifically lately.

You'll never convince Majesty he's wrong about ELEX. Stop trying while you're ahead.
 

dreamfall

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,977
When does Far Cry 3 Remastered come out? Is it soon? Any word on if this Season pass is remotely worth it?
 

Vuze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,186
Any reviewers here who played the coop mode? From my understanding only the host achieves story progression but does that mean the partner is excluded from skill tree unlocking etc?
 

SnowFlakeCake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
516
This is about as high as Ubisoft games get these days.

Rainbow Six: Siege: 73
Ghost Recon: Wildlands: 70
For Honor: 78
Steep: 71
The Crew: 61
South Park: The Fractured, But Whole: 79
The Division: 80
Assassin's Creed: Unity: 70
Assassin's Creed: Syndicate: 76
Assassin's Creed: Origins: 81

This game was really unlikely to score in the upper 80s/lower 90s like some people seemed to be expecting.

Ubi are aggressively mediocre, having found just the right formula to get good sales but never push the boat. The Marvel of gaming.
 

LuisGarcia

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,478
Yeah I'm going to bow out now don't want to get spoiled. Happy with the scores though and expect it to land on 83 with the Gamespot and IGN reviews added.
 

scare_crow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,310
Great review

Waypoint is killing it right now, imo

Very well-written, but I fear it's going to be the first of 1,000 hot(ter) takes on the game. It's almost as if, and stick with me here, Far Cry doesn't want to take itself so seriously. A toe in the water approach, like every other game. I can see what he's saying -- that it alllllmost gets there, and that's a shame because it could've been more impactful than it chooses to be. But for me, I don't want Far Cry to go there. Having some huge, political moment of gravitas one second and then flying through the mountains raining over-the-top destruction down would be more whiplash than I would enjoy, I think.
 

bbq of doom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,606
I did now, was a little short on time earlier and yeah I'm not surprised coming from waypoint they would focus on everything but gameplay. I just meant that line could definitely be used to describe their games from a mechanics point of view as well. They have a very samey set up and progression to them, as do many other AAA games like tomb raider, mordor and even batman games.

Regarding your waypoint comment, I'm thankful they choose a different approach. We need more dissonant, differing voices.

And regarding the rest of your comments, agreed.
 

MadLaughter

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,101
Having some huge, political moment of gravitas one second and then flying through the mountains raining over-the-top destruction down would be more whiplash than I would enjoy, I think.

I think that Wolfenstein 2 proves that it's possible to have a tonal spectrum done well, but that's a pretty curated experience that doesn't factor in an open world.
 

Robocop

Member
Jan 25, 2018
111
I remember playing FC3 and liking it until the I have to collect everything side of me soured me on it. Then the same happened when I bought FC4(heavily discounted). Glad this is reviewing well. Based on my previous pattern, I will end up buying this. Hoping the experience will be better since I don't care about collecting shit as much.
 

Casual

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,547
Ubi are aggressively mediocre, having found just the right formula to get good sales but never push the boat. The Marvel of gaming.
Yeah, aggressively mediocre is probably the best description lol. They've polished the hell out of that formula though. I think I learned my lesson after FC4, but it took way too long. Of all the games I've bought and put down after 2 hours, Ubisoft probably made half of them.

Rabbids was their best output in years.
 

Chocobo115

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,311
Sweden
Eh, I'm not sure they'd pull it off well.

I don't mind political commentary in video games but I'm not sure a 1,000 person team, mass-market, mainstream, wal-mart shooter is capable of doing that well.


Oh good. I got really tired of that shit in AC:O.

Haven't seen it myself but a review said the opening mission is really strong. Drawing comparisons to the opening of the last of us. Maybe if they were able to maintain that through the game they'd be able to pull it off.
 

Arkaign

Member
Nov 25, 2017
1,991
Very well-written, but I fear it's going to be the first of 1,000 hot(ter) takes on the game. It's almost as if, and stick with me here, Far Cry doesn't want to take itself so seriously. A toe in the water approach, like every other game. I can see what he's saying -- that it alllllmost gets there, and that's a shame because it could've been more impactful than it chooses to be. But for me, I don't want Far Cry to go there. Having some huge, political moment of gravitas one second and then flying through the mountains raining over-the-top destruction down would be more whiplash than I would enjoy, I think.

Lol you put it way more nicely than I could have. That was a wall of text that says so, so much more about the author than the game. If that's how they review games, I'm definitely marking them off of 'relevant' in terms of what games are fun to play lol.
 

SolidSnakeUS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,618
Reviews seem to be in the territory of FC4 and I think that is a perfectly fine thing. I really liked FC4 and put a good amount of hours into it. This should be a fun romp to keep me busy for a while.
 

Hopping_Mad

User banned for use of alt account
Banned
Nov 13, 2017
1,077
Australia
Lol you put it way more nicely than I could have. That was a wall of text that says so, so much more about the author than the game. If that's how they review games, I'm definitely marking them off of 'relevant' in terms of what games are fun to play lol.

Waypoint seems to review games on political agenda first, gameplay last. I dont play games to listen to political commentary. I play them for fun. I never find their reviews worthwhile.
 

MadLaughter

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,101
Waypoint seems to review games on political agenda first, gameplay last. I dont play games to listen to political commentary. I play them for fun. I never find their reviews worthwhile.

He talks about a lot of the gameplay systems in other parts of the review. Progression, level & mission design, gunplay, AI...
 

New Fang

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,542
lol considering the game was in development far before Orange was elected
So because it was in development prior to the fall 2016 election that means they didn't have enough time in the past 1.5 years to weave some things into this game's story?

Is this a meme? I've been seeing this pop up all over this site recently.
It's just a very accurate way to describe a great many games these days. Ubisoft has this open world formula they attempt to build all sorts of different games around, and in many ways it leads to them not making anything that stands out.
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,690
Is this a meme? I've been seeing this pop up all over this site recently.
It's just a bad take that comes from ignorant people who still think Ubi makes three games that all center around tower climbing. Mentioning games that don't fit that specific open world criticism, like R6 Siege, For Honor, South Park, Mario & Rabbids, or others, and you're met with a variety of excuses.
 

FireSafetyBear

Banned for use of an alt-account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,248
So because it was in development prior to the fall 2016 election that means they didn't have enough time in the past 1.5 years to weave some things into this game's story?


It's just a very accurate way to describe a great many games these days. Ubisoft has this open world formula they attempt to build all sorts of different games around, and in many ways it leads to them not making anything that stands out.

Sure they could have but the review makes it seem like it was made right when he was elected.

Plus it seems like they're making it political for the sake of making it political. Same with people who will use this as "see we don't need more of dem violent games they make the children bad"
 

Derrick01

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,289
It's just a bad take that comes from ignorant people who still think Ubi makes three games that all center around tower climbing. Mentioning games that don't fit that specific open world criticism, like R6 Siege, For Honor, South Park, Mario & Rabbids, or others, and you're met with a variety of excuses.

I would put most of those under that same mediocre banner as the others honestly (the online GaaS games I would put under a much nastier/meaner banner). Even south park which I felt was a huge step down from the first game, despite having a better combat system. How much of that was ubi's fault or Matt and Trey's who can say for sure? I just know it wasn't as good.

Mario Rabbids was good though. Pretty sure I had it near the end of my goty list last year, definitely a good if somewhat too simplified take on the Xcom formula.
 

New Fang

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,542
Sure they could have but the review makes it seem like it was made right when he was elected.

Plus it seems like they're making it political for the sake of making it political. Same with people who will use this as "see we don't need more of dem violent games they make the children bad"
Well it's not hard to imagine the story of this game was coming into focus right at the exact moment the election was entering it's home stretch (2 years ago), right up to the actual election night (1.5 years ago).
 

dragonflys545

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,422
New York
Pre-ordered my copy from BB with GCU. I enjoyed both FC2 and 3 setting, not so much the 4th one.

So far from the videos I've seen so far, I think I'll enjoy this world a lot.
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Sweden
if the developers choose a setting that is very obviously political in today's climate, then criticizing the game on what it's saying (or not) about politics is absolutely fair game

i know, not everyone have the will or intellectual ability to critically think about the political messages and interpretations of the games they are playing, but ridiculing those who do is only making yourself look bad
 

Secretofmateria

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,424
Waypoint seems to review games on political agenda first, gameplay last. I dont play games to listen to political commentary. I play them for fun. I never find their reviews worthwhile.

Thats fine then, im much in the same boat as you, however i wont deny the fact that its important for sites like way point to exist in our climate. We live in an age where more and more, peoples politics and moral standings drive every day decision making. If your'e the type of person who wants to make and a 60 dollar transaction and have it positively effect the leftist movement while also aggrivating the right. Far cry 5 might not be the "FU" that your looking for and that money might be better spent on wolfenstein 2 or a more socially concious independant game. But if your politics dont drive your buying habbits or hobbies, then far cry 5's lack of a politicial direction might not bother you in the slightest. However for those that this is extremely important for, its good to have places like way point catering to that market.
 
Nov 13, 2017
1,230
It's just a bad take that comes from ignorant people who still think Ubi makes three games that all center around tower climbing. Mentioning games that don't fit that specific open world criticism, like R6 Siege, For Honor, South Park, Mario & Rabbids, or others, and you're met with a variety of excuses.
No, I meant the phrase "aggressively mediocre." I'm seeing it used to describe everything lately. A youtube video, a game, a developer. Figured it was some kinda meme.