Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Lime · Nov 7, 2017

Audioboxer said:
Let's try and bridge the real world with fantasy, and I'll be interested to hear your views. Why? Because like in the real world, people often have sexual desires/interests met by fantasy.

Are we going to agree dildos and fleshlights aren't sexist/misogynistic? What about males and females masturbating at night? (or whenever, in private) What about males and females using Tinder to hookup weekly with sex partners for fun and enjoyment? What about gossip and chat between friends of their desires/interests/sexual partners and so on? What about males or females, yes both, who want to dress scantily, in tight clothing, to accent their features or feel sexy/empowered? In relation to clothing, what about the cosplayers of the characters you deem problematic? Are they perpetuating harmful problematic views? Is this internalized misogyny just because people want to dress sexually?

You see, this is where I seriously struggle with some of the incredibly Conservative views of some gamers. The realms of fantasy being treated more hostile than the real world. Of course, I expect you to come back as any proper feminist should and say sex toys are natural, masturbating isn't a sin, people having sex with 150+ partners a year doesn't make them a whore/bad person if it's all consensual and for fun. Talking to your friends about what turns you on/how good sex was last weekend, or that you find actor named x/y/z hot and they turn you on/you dream they'd fuck you, is healthy natural sex talk. People should be able to wear whatever they want, no matter how sexual, and still garner respect, it's their bodies and dress sense. Etc. Etc. Etc.

However, turn to the world of fantasy, and some of you cannot wait to rush in with every single accusation/name calling/term possible, often without any evidence whatsoever of foul play/harassment/wrong-doing, other than there being sexualized polygons. Misogyny is hatred and contempt for women, for fuck sake. A fleshlight isn't hatred of women, nor is a sexual video game character unless there is evidence the creator is something sinister themselves. Most often it's just as I highlighted earlier, straight men catering to their fantasy desires, and this is backed up by actual psychology and biology, not blogs. Most often this is not people who hate women. Yes, actual individual behaviour in this industry can be shocking and appalling, but meeting that with blanket statements/accusations is incredibly intellectually dishonest and harmful. The social media and internet court in 2017 is downright childish and immature at times. Unsurprisingly, absolute rampant hypocrisy often follows this kind of behaviour. As in some people who state they how they are publicly, end up being the ones sitting at night masturbating, sexually pleasing themselves, watching porn, hooking up on Tinder, Googling cosplay of video game characters and more. All of which, I have zero problems with. It's all healthy and natural biological behaviour for a sexual species.

What I do have a problem with is hypocrisy and heavy-handed accusations with zero evidence, as it doesn't make anyone a knight in shining armour, it often makes people incredibly ill-advised and hostile to reality. Well, that and of course the male feminist ally turns out to be a raging harasser/abuser is also something I have a problem with, you know, because that is evidence of foul play/abuse/problematic behaviour. Someone staring at their TV because Quiet is on show in no way is direct correlation that they hate and harass women. No more than someone putting sex toys in their body, or closing their eyes and masturbating whilst imaginging being fucked by whoever turns them on.

Not sure who you are referring to here...I am not saying that sexualization is wrong. Dildos and fleshlights are fine. Dicks are fine. Breasts are fine. Sex-positivity all the way, yay! The rest of your post does little to address what I am talking about. If you want to learn more, listen to this recent podcast: https://no-cartridge.net/?name=2017-11-03_ep52.mp3 as just one single instance of the thousands of personal testimonies of why this is a problem. You completely misunderstand if you think that the argument is "sexualization is bad" when that has nothing to do with what people are and have been saying for decades :)

Researchers and women (and some men) are saying that the general landscape of video games culture has built up an objectificaiton of women to the point that the industry and culture is deeply misogynist. So even though one single instance of mute bikini sniper locked up in a cage or latex stripper nuns with guns are fine, they are symptoms of the broader trend of always reducing women to their bodies as pleasurable objects for male gamers. And when academics and women themselves try to inform male gamers about this and what effects this objectifying form of sexualization have, they refuse to listen. And when the misogyny is challenged, we are met with harassment and silencing and doxxing.

So how about some support and help? How about spending effort on challenging the misogyny in games culture and the industry?

Olrac · Nov 7, 2017

OP is not wrong, however, none of this will change until society at large changes. All one needs to do is look at television, music and movies to see that this is extremely prevalent in society, and gaming is just another entertainment medium in that society. This doesn't make it right, but even if gaming were to improve, it still wouldn't solve the root problem. I don't watch it, but from the clips I've seen online, Fox News, the bastion of conservative television, had Fox News "ladies" that were basically doing panty shots on live television. Look at the music videos, and not just the hip-hop ones, but even pop and country.

At the risk of false-equivalence, this doesn't just happen with women in other industries. Look at all the rappers that are "super-cut" and shirtless on their album covers: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9d/Get_Rich_Or_Die_Tryin'.JPG There are plenty of those on both sides of the spectrum. There is a reason why most lead actors are attractive (both male and female), it is because attractiveness sells. Now, there is a difference between using attractive people and over-sexualization, just as there is a difference between consensual flirting and harassment. However, I feel that until society itself deems all over-sexualization as a bad thing, it will continue to permeate in all of our media.

That being said...women definitely have it 1000x worse and I recognize that as a male. I don't condone it, just feel that it is symptomatic of a bigger issue.

Ferrs · Nov 7, 2017

Cid said:
Maybe where you live
But not where I live

Actually, when a woman goes missing the search is always a bigger thing then when it's a man
And most soldiers that die are men
And women are not hit by people
And they get much time of work for free when they get children and men don't
Just some examples
Where I live women are not treated less good than man, maybe even better than men

Anyway
MGSV is fantastic

So, where you live women aren't catcalled at the street?
Where you live men are sexually harassed and raped more than women?
Where you live women are paid more than men at work? Also tend to hold higher opsitions at workplaces?

Also I bet the missing thing is just bullshit, but it happens that women tend to be missing more than men. I wonder why!

Cid · Nov 7, 2017

Zutrax said:
I live in America, so they're absolutely treated more poorly overall here. Even if it isn't as drastic as some countries

It's sad that your country is like that

VallenValiant · Nov 7, 2017

Linkark07 said:
It still baffles me how these designers like to give female characters impractical footwear. Like hell it will be comfortable running long distances or fighting constantly while wearing high heel boots.

If women stop buying impractical footwear, designers would stop selling them. Same applies with clothes that have no pockets. Games merely exaggerate this.

Persephone · Nov 7, 2017

Cid said:
It's sad that your country is like that

I promise you yours is as well, you just don't realise it.

Cid · Nov 7, 2017

Ferrs said:
So, where you live women aren't catcalled at the street?
Where you live men are sexually harassed and raped more than women?
Where you live women are paid more than men at work? Also tend to hold higher opsitions at workplaces?

Also I bet the missing thing is just bullshit, but it happens that women tend to be missing more than men. I wonder why!

Where I live women are not treated much more poorly than men, yes

Rape and lunatic stuff of course happens in any country
And every year more men are murdered than women for whatever reason

When we talk about treatment of women, I talk about how a society is, not some idiot raper or murderer in his own crazy mind

If you want to take the discussion there, go ahead

Cid · Nov 7, 2017

Persephone said:
I promise you yours is as well, you just don't realise it.

The Netherlands really is not like the USA

Valkyr1983 · Nov 7, 2017

Weltall Zero said:
Indeed. An argument that soon reveals itself for the hypocritical disingenuity that it is when they never, ever, apply it to any other kind of criticism leveraged at a game. If they felt so strongly about authorial intent, you would expect them to pop into every single thread where someone criticises a character's design, even if the criticism has nothing to do with objectification. Can you picture them going into threads like this one and telling every single poster "well have you thought maybe they have the right to make the design they want?!"? :D

The one that got me yesterday in the other thread was the one rejecting criticism of sexualization in the name of "variety", including helpfully pointing out how it's "the spice of life". It makes one wonder what planet some of them are from.

I use the same argument on other game design choices all the time.

If Capcom wanted to make another mainline Resident Evil game and bring back static camera angles and tank controls, I know there would be tons of topics about it, and I would go in every single one and use the "artistic intent" argument, every time

I also felt the same way when people lost their mind of the changes to Chloe and Elena and the newer Uncharted games. Just because you don't like the new look, do you really think you know better than the character artists at naughty dog, honestly?

Kemono · Nov 7, 2017

Pirate Bae said:
Oh, for sure. But it shouldn't be the norm for gaming, which it has become, in my opinion.

Can you name a sexualised Character in a AAA Game (non niche) not made by a japanese dev in the last 2-3 Years?

Even if there are some in a mmo or moba i hardly think it could be seen as the norm in gaming.

Silvard · Nov 7, 2017

Cid said:
Maybe where you live
But not where I live

Actually, when a woman goes missing the search is always a bigger thing then when it's a man
And most soldiers that die are men
And women are not hit by people
And they get much time of work for free when they get children and men don't
Just some examples
Where I live women are not treated less good than man, maybe even better than men

Anyway
MGSV is fantastic

I can't tell if you're trolling or if you're being genuine. I am unsure of which one would be worse.

Skade · Nov 7, 2017

Arion said:
You can criticize something if you don't like how it's done and offer directions in how to go about changing it but labeling it as right or wrong doesn't help.

Well, in the case of the Bikini armors, we can label it with absolute certainty as "wrong". An armor is supposed to protect the body. A bikini, even in chaimail, doesn't protect shit. Therefore, it's the worst possible design for an armor.

I don't think anyone can justify it in any convincing way.

Deleted member 888 · Nov 7, 2017

Lime said:
Not sure who you are referring to here...I am not saying that sexualization is wrong. Dildos and fleshlights are fine. Dicks are fine. Breats are fine. Sex-positivity all the way, yay! The rest of your post does little to address what I am talking about. If you want to get learn more, listen to this recent podcast: https://no-cartridge.net/?name=2017-11-03_ep52.mp3 as just one single instance of the thousands of personal testimonies of why this.

I'm saying that the general landscape of video games culture has built up an objectificaiton of women to the point that the industry and culture is deeply misogynist. So even though one single instance of mute bikini sniper or latex stripper nuns with guns are fine, they are symptoms of the broader trend of always reducing women to their bodies as pleasurable objects for male gamers. And when academics and women themselves try to inform male gamers about this, they refuse to listen. And when the misogyny is challenged, we are met with harassment and silencing and doxxing. So how about some support and help?

You have to sometimes detach sexualisation from individual or group behaviour that is harassment and abuse. The hypocrisy is sometimes people who say they are sex-positive either aren't or it's sex-positive exclusively on their terms. So what they like, what they want and what excites them without even a little bit of care or understanding other people may like different things than them. That's not quite how it works if you truly want to accept both sexes will pursue different, but sometimes overlapping sexual desires/objectification for their needs. Men and women are different, in general, in some psychological and biological ways. Understanding and embracing that needs to happen if we hope to have a chance to discuss things honestly, and not loaded with personal opinion.

If you conflate the two, as always being interlinked, it leads you or others to drop blanket statements too often that actually lose you help because unsurprisingly people do not like being called names/told they are wrong/abusive/problematic like a priest might say self-pleasure is a sin. Someone says they like Quiet, and often there are 100 posts surrounding them implying misogyny/hatred of women/abuse/sexism/etc. Putting aside the fact Kojima has never actually been accused of hating or treating women poorly, as the creator, it's more the gamers who aren't doing anything wrong that respond negatively to you or anyone else not being nuanced enough to somewhat separate sexualisation from blanket accusations of foul play.

Criticising nudity/sexual displays on your TV, or finding they happen too much, is not the same as simply saying it's misogyny and sexism every time it happens. That's what riles some up, zero nuance around the discussion and some just want to go straight to name-calling and serious accusations.

As for you implying I do not try and tackle abusive behaviour, the good news for you is how passionately I fight for proper sex education in schools. That is actually a way in which real life respect can prosper though young minds fully understanding sex, consent, respect and so on without parents and teachers standing in the way/being too embarrassed to talk nudity/sex/masturbation/biological desires/etc. Thanks for asking me to help, but I know I'm truly sex-positive (for both sexes) and very clear on where the science stands, and I'm also optimistic about what behavioural changes may occur over the generations if we can focus more effort on education at younger ages.

I genuinely think many of the worst, most aggressive and abusive teenagers or young men in gaming are either virgins angry at the world for them not getting sex, or individuals with terrible sex education and complete anxiety or inexperience with how to engage socially/flirt/ask a woman out. Some of this, more so if it's a lack of education, can be mitigated and improved on by schooling and public education. At the end of the day, preying, sinister and horrible people are still going to exist, even with education. They just need to be pointed out, and potentially arrested/dealt with by law. The more extreme behaviour (violence/harassment/etc) isn't interlinked with some socially awkward virgin getting titillated by video games characters, though. Or even men who get plenty of sex still seeking out visual stimulation. Men, and women, still masturbate/use sex toys/fantasize even when in healthy, stable relationships.

Hex · Nov 7, 2017

I think the thread title is missing the very important word "some".
As in "Why some women..."
There is not a estrogenical consensus on the matter and in fact some of the more vocal on the issue are males.
Many women could care less.
As has been seen in the five or so threads that have come up on the very same subject in the last day or two, there are vastly differing opinions.

Cid · Nov 7, 2017

Silvard said:
I can't tell if you're trolling or if you're being genuine. I am unsure of which one would be worse.

I see my mother
My sister
My girlfriends
Their girlfriends and other women I know and collegues and they have great lifes and are treated well
Just come to the Netherlands and see it

Finale Fireworker · Nov 7, 2017

Valkyr1983 said:
You don't really see tons of topics about the women of Dead Or Alive on these forums, and I have to assume it's because they are open with their intent, they know their audience (like me lol)

This is a HUGE factor.

Nobody is going to take issue with sexualized characters in a game that is expressly designed to be titillating. Games like Dead or Alive, or even Skull Girls, are immediately up front with their intentions. These characters are not out of place and are completely on-tone with the material itself. These games are supposed to be sexy, so it makes sense for the characters to be depicted as such.

This is something Persephone talks about in the OP: there is nothing unusual or off-tone about a girl in a bikini on the beach. It is unusual when they're a genetically-modified super soldier flitting between strapped male cast members not subject to the same aesthetic and nothing about their design speaks to the plot, tone, or themes of the encompassing material. Even separate from the nuance of sexism and the politics of it, it's just terrible writing.

I'm going to test out a parallel. This is not directed at you specifically, I'm just using your post as a springboard.

Imagine if Saving Private Ryan featured a handful of characters in clown make up. Everything else is the same. The story, the characters, the heartache, the violence, the storming the beach at Normandy, all of this is the same. But every so often, there's a clown. They solemnly make balloon animals, they get into spats with Tom Hanks about why Private Ryan is worth all of their lives, and their shoes squeak when they march. Sometimes a clown is the only one on screen and they juggle for a few seconds before the story moves forward.

People would complain. They would say these clowns are ruining the story. There's no reason for them to be there. They don't add anything and are really distracting. You can't take the story seriously when Vin Diesel is in white pancake make up and Matt Damon has a red foam nose. They completely compromise the integrity of the narrative. Now imagine that every time you say the clowns ruined Saving Private Ryan, you got replies like this:

"What's wrong with clowns?"
"Steven Spielberg can puts clowns in his movies if he wants."
"I don't have a problem with it. I like clowns."
"Clowns are really popular in Japan."

All of these comments miss the point entirely. The problem isn't just clowns, it's where and how they appear. They are totally at odds with the material and cater to an extremely specific audience while alienating everyone else. There is nothing wrong with a clown appearing in a story about clowns, but there is a problem with clowns appearing in Saving Private Ryan.

So even if you have no problems with sexualized characters and even if you don't have a grasp on the semantics of misogyny and even if your favorite video game characters are the ones you think are hot, you should at least be able to concede that there is a time and a place and characters like Quiet break context.

And however annoying it is for men like me, it's all worse for women, who are more directly affected by these portrayals.

ShyMel · Nov 7, 2017

VallenValiant said:
If women stop buying impractical footwear, designers would stop selling them. Same applies with clothes that have no pockets. Games merely exaggerate this.

Clothes designers do this though so women will spend money on purses and bags. The companies these designers work for have a vested interest in getting rid of the pockets in women's clothing. I cannot speak for all women, but I do try to make sure all pants I plan on buying have pockets. However I do not have the time to go to multiple stores to get only pants with pockets.

Arion · Nov 7, 2017

Skade said:
Well, in the case of the Bikini armors, we can label it with absolute certainty as "wrong". An armor is supposed to protect the body. A bikini, even in chaimail, doesn't protect shit. Therefore, it's the worst possible design for an armor.

I don't think anyone can justify it in any convincing way.

Video games don't really have to follow real life rules. Do you also find double jumping to be wrong?

Gotdatmoney · Nov 7, 2017

Cid said:
Where I live women are not treated much more poorly than men, yes

Where is this place you live?

And every year more men are murdered than women for whatever reason

More men are murdered by other men. More women are also murdered by men. You're seriously implying this mean that society treats men worse?

When we talk about treatment of women, I talk about how a society is, not some idiot raper or murderer in his own crazy mind

Rape and sexual assault are not some one off idiot person. They are deeply engrained in society. You denying this is actually offputting.

If you want to take the discussion there, go ahead

Really now?

Gold Arsene · Nov 7, 2017

Weltall Zero said:
I don't have a clue if you're a good person or not, I don't know you :) . But nothing you've said detracts from your value as a person, at all. Being attracted to sexualized members of the opposite sex is normal: hell, that's the entire point. As long as you realize why they may be problematic and how they contribute to a status quo that makes women's lives harder (and hopefully empathize with them), you're fine. And even if you don't, that just makes you less aware, not necessarily a bad person.

This is a good post and I thank you for asking this, because I think a lot of the defensiveness comes from people that believe they are being morally judged as a whole for liking it, rather than the simple criticism of a product it really is. I've noticed even close friends recoil in shock when I've told them "what you just said is sexist", as if I had called them, themselves, sexists.

Thanks. I have to admit I often felt bad reading threads like this as I sometimes like games or characters that are discussed. But I understand why someone would feel left out with how characters are portrayed.

Like I won't lie I like Cindy's design, but I also know why others hate it. So thinking about it, I wouldn't have been bothered if she'd had a more conservative design.

I tend to try and stay out of threads like this because I know they tend to be tense and I don't consider myself nearly good enough at conversing to really contribute to the discussion. But I've wanted to ask that for a while so thank you for answering.

Kemono · Nov 7, 2017

Skade said:
Well, in the case of the Bikini armors, we can label it with absolute certainty as "wrong". An armor is supposed to protect the body. A bikini, even in chaimail, doesn't protect shit. Therefore, it's the worst possible design for an armor.

I don't think anyone can justify it in any convincing way.

In a fantasy world where you can run around in a loincloth i don't really think a bikini armor, as ridiculous the concept is in real world terms, should be the "unreal" thing to point to. Make it leather and it's the same thing as for a male barbarian, etc.

Lego Killer Moth · Nov 7, 2017

Zoid said:
Your post reeks of double standards. Mario shouldn't be able to wear swim trunks in the Snow Kingdom. Children play this game!

I mean, it would maybe be objectification if his nips got hard in the Snow Kingdom, but they don't. It's a gag costume, it's not intended to be sexual.

karkii · Nov 7, 2017

Cid said:
The Netherlands really is not like the USA

Granted this is a result of quick googling but these results would like to disagree.

Mr.Deadshot · Nov 7, 2017

I never had a problem with sexualised characters. I even enjoy some designs to be totally honest. And I think it's not true that this only affects women characters. Take the example of Final Fantasy games. Is Gladiolus really that much better than Cid with his open shirt, presenting his sixpack and muscles? What about Vaan and Tidus? Or how about all the Marvel main lead characters. There isn't a single Marvel movie without a shirtless scene.

Fun thing: I don't know a single women in real life that complains about sexualised characters. I even have a friend who does cosplay of those characters.

In the end it's a personal thing and people who don't enjoy sexualised characters should consume other games/movies. There are alternatives - especially in todays videogame landscape. But videogames are a work of fiction and escapism. And sex sells just as good as explosions, blood and violence. And most people seem to enjoy those things so it won't go away.

VallenValiant · Nov 7, 2017

Jackson said:
I mean, it would maybe be objectification if his nips got hard in the Snow Kingdom, but they don't. It's a gag costume, it's not intended to be sexual.

Are you sure you would be able to tell at that size scale?

Deleted member 19218 · Nov 7, 2017

Persephone said:
I'm pretty sure it's fairly well known that Kojima is a huge horndog.

I remember in MGS4 if you shake the controller while talking to Rose her breasts would shake.

I also remember you could kiss the posters of Japanese idols in MGS2.

I also remember if you kept going into and out of the crawl space you can see Meryl in her underwear before meeting the DARPA chief.

It's terrible really. I actually think it's worse than Dead or Alive Extreme Volleyball because of his denial statements. He just tells us that we will feel ashamed. Why should we feel ashamed?

BlacJack · Nov 7, 2017

Not sure where this conversation is going, but I'll add my silly perspective.

I do feel like there is a demographic that isn't really discussed on forums at all compared to what I experience in real life. My wife for instance enjoys sexualized females (as long as it isn't so ridiculously over the top) as it is sort of like a "oh that's hot or sexy" kinda thing. I actually don't experience too many females offput by MOST designs in games, at least not comparatively to what I see online. In fact it seems to be a lot of males proclaiming the absurdity as of late.

I will also say that male characters are hardly "normal." While it isn't comparable as far as the clothing goes, most male video game designs are muscular, ab ridden "regular" guys. Most real life men don't look like they can bench a Chevy. It's all power/sexual fantasy but the characters like Nathan Drake are as far and few between as the NEW Lara Croft.

I'm not trying to defend it and women are misrepresented WORSE than males, but I wouldn't say MORE often.

Lego Killer Moth · Nov 7, 2017

VallenValiant said:
Are you sure you would be able to tell at that size scale?

Good point. If you could tell at that size scale, it would DEFINITELY be objectification lmao.

FallenGrace · Nov 7, 2017

Persephone said:
Cindy is a mechanic in the fucking desert who walks around in hot pants and a bikini top, because she has grease-repelling skin that never burns, I guess. Meanwhile, Noctis and co. roll up in jeans and t-shirts. It's like, okay, we get it, this game is for dudes and the women are there for eye candy. Can we stop now, please?

Thank you! My interest in FFXV was wavering for a while before launch but seeing Cindy as she was with the tan lines and some of the angles just killed any interest I had absolutely dead. It's just ridiculous.

I'm a male, and I like a sexy woman as much as the next straight guy but characters can be sexy and still be appropriately dressed with proportions like actual people. Making Cindy dressed like she was just cheapens the game and the industry in that instance, there is a design of her somewhere else I have seen with full overalls that is perfect they could have gone with but instead they went for the weird Shinjuku shopping look? I don't get it. The game would have sold well without that, they don't need to lower the tone like they did.

Finale Fireworker said:
This is a HUGE factor.

Nobody is going to take issue with sexualized characters in a game that is expressly designed to be titillating. Games like Dead or Alive, or even Skull Girls, are immediately up front with their intentions. These characters are not out of place and are completely on-tone with the material itself. These games are supposed to be sexy, so it makes sense for the characters to be depicted as such.

This is something Persephone talks about in the OP: there is nothing unusual or off-tone about a girl in a bikini on the beach. It is unusual when they're a genetically-modified super soldier flitting between strapped male cast members not subject to the same aesthetic and nothing about their design speaks to the plot, tone, or themes of the encompassing material. Even separate from the nuance of sexism and the politics of it, it's just terrible writing.

I'm going to test out a parallel. This is not directed at you specifically, I'm just using your post as a springboard.

Imagine if Saving Private Ryan featured a handful of characters in clown make up. Everything else is the same. The story, the characters, the heartache, the violence, the storming the beach at Normandy, all of this is the same. But every so often, there's a clown. They solemnly make balloon animals, they get into spats with Tom Hanks about why Private Ryan is worth all of their lives, and their shoes squeak when they march. Sometimes a clown is the only one on screen and they juggle for a few seconds before the story moves forward.

People would complain. They would say these clowns are ruining the story. There's no reason for them to be there. They don't add anything and are really distracting. You can't take the story seriously when Vin Diesel is in white pancake make up and Matt Damon has a red foam nose. They completely compromise the integrity of the narrative. Now imagine that every time you say the clowns ruined Saving Private Ryan, you got replies like this:

"What's wrong with clowns?"
"Steven Spielberg can puts clowns in his movies if he wants."
"I don't have a problem with it. I like clowns."
"Clowns are really popular in Japan."

All of these comments miss the point entirely. The problem isn't just clowns, it's where and how they appear. They are totally at odds with the material and cater to an extremely specific audience while alienating everyone else. There is nothing wrong with a clown appearing in a story about clowns, but there is a problem with clowns appearing in Saving Private Ryan.

So even if you have no problems with sexualized characters and even if you don't have a grasp on the semantics of misogyny and even if your favorite video game characters are the ones you think are hot, you should at least be able to concede that there is a time and a place and characters like Quiet break context.

And however annoying it is for men like me, it's all worse for women, who are more directly affected by these portrayals.

I totally agree, it's what I find so ludicrous with Cindy and Quiet, they just don't belong there like they are. I have no problem with Dead or Alive of Senran Kagura because they are blatent with what they are and who they are aimed at, I can stay clear of them because there won't be a hidden surprise.

SolidSnakex · Nov 7, 2017

Cid said:
Boobs don't sell games
How can people even say that they do?
Just look at the best selling games and series aka the facts

I don't think you can make a blanket statement like this. It's going to ultimately depend on the game. It won't work for some and it may for others. Look at Fire Emblem for example. The developers were told by Nintendo that Awakening would be the last entry in the series unless it sold at least 250k. The series was just at a point where it wasn't selling enough to really be viable anymore. Awakening would go on to introduce new features as well as old features that fans loved in order to attempt to save it. And something else it did was introduce a lot of of very fanservice-like designs and scenes. That entry would go on to explode in terms of popularity. And Fates would be even more popular. Obviously it's not all down to the fanservice as there were also new features introduced, but the continuation of those designs in Fates at least shows the developers feel that it certainly played a role in saving the franchise.

Skade · Nov 7, 2017

Arion said:
Video games don't really have to follow real life rules. Do you also find double jumping to be wrong?

Seriously ?

I can accept many things in video games, super powers and whatnot. But a bikini as an armor just does not make any sense. Would it be imbued with magic or technology generating a force field or whatever around it would still make no sense. The second the force field fails, you'd be left with absolutely nothing.

No matter the situation, a bikini cannot be justified as a proper battle armor. Same goes of course for the famed barbarian loincloth.

Cid · Nov 7, 2017

karkii said:
Granted this is a result of quick googling but these results would like to disagree.

Just come and see
I actually think the women I know are happier than I am
Majority of students at universities is female now and the majority of judges also and so on and on

And don't even start to compare the USA to the Netherlands as being the same
That country even has a president that has proven big issues with women
Our last "leader" called a women journalist only "nice" and got in trouble over it
That is unthinkable in the Netherlands to have a country-leader like that but in the USA people actually voted for that guy

Bán · Nov 7, 2017

Finale Fireworker said:
This is a HUGE factor.

Nobody is going to take issue with sexualized characters in a game that is expressly designed to be titillating. Games like Dead or Alive, or even Skull Girls, are immediately up front with their intentions. These characters are not out of place and are completely on-tone with the material itself. These games are supposed to be sexy, so it makes sense for the characters to be depicted as such.

This is something Persephone talks about in the OP: there is nothing unusual or off-tone about a girl in a bikini on the beach. It is unusual when they're a genetically-modified super soldier flitting between strapped male cast members not subject to the same aesthetic and nothing about their design speaks to the plot, tone, or themes of the encompassing material. Even separate from the nuance of sexism and the politics of it, it's just terrible writing.

I'm going to test out a parallel. This is not directed at you specifically, I'm just using your post as a springboard.

Imagine if Saving Private Ryan featured a handful of characters in clown make up. Everything else is the same. The story, the characters, the heartache, the violence, the storming the beach at Normandy, all of this is the same. But every so often, there's a clown. They solemnly make balloon animals, they get into spats with Tom Hanks about why Private Ryan is worth all of their lives, and their shoes squeak when they march. Sometimes a clown is the only one on screen and they juggle for a few seconds before the story moves forward.

People would complain. They would say these clowns are ruining the story. There's no reason for them to be there. They don't add anything and are really distracting. You can't take the story seriously when Vin Diesel is in white pancake make up and Matt Damon has a red foam nose. They completely compromise the integrity of the narrative. Now imagine that every time you say the clowns ruined Saving Private Ryan, you got replies like this:

"What's wrong with clowns?"
"Steven Spielberg can puts clowns in his movies if he wants."
"I don't have a problem with it. I like clowns."
"Clowns are really popular in Japan."

All of these comments miss the point entirely. The problem isn't just clowns, it's where and how they appear. They are totally at odds with the material and cater to an extremely specific audience while alienating everyone else. There is nothing wrong with a clown appearing in a story about clowns, but there is a problem with clowns appearing in Saving Private Ryan.

So even if you have no problems with sexualized characters and even if you don't have a grasp on the semantics of misogyny and even if your favorite video game characters are the ones you think are hot, you should at least be able to concede that there is a time and a place and characters like Quiet break context.

And however annoying it is for men like me, it's all worse for women, who are more directly affected by these portrayals.

This is a great post, but you know for a fact that if someone was to do the clown thing you really would get those comments too. People will defend anything.

Anyway, where things get more tricky is when the game is intended to appeal to the same niche of consumers as a DoA game but it's not as obvious from the outside. Or hell, even take DoA - DoA 5's marketing campaign could have fooled you that there would be no fanservice, just a seriously cliched game about hunting down a clone ninja and a fighting tournament set on an oil rig. So if someone buys it and finds that there's a ton of bikini DLC, is that something they should just ignore or is that a problem? Is it a case where they should say 'Shit, I guess this game wasn't for me' or should they say 'This is unfair, I've been suckered into a game full of shit that I feel makes me uncomfortable.' It's those cases where it's not quite clear what the game wants to be where arguments develop, imo.

For the record I fucking love me some DoA and always have, and I'm not adverse to spending a dollar or two on a nice swimsuit for Christie or Helena. But even I thought they were moving in a new direction with DoA5 and was surprised at what the game ended up becoming - I really did buy it for the gameplay at launch (and it delivered in spades).

Lego Killer Moth · Nov 7, 2017

BlacJack said:
Not sure where this conversation is going, but I'll add my silly perspective.

I do feel like there is a demographic that isn't really discussed on forums at all compared to what I experience in real life. My wife for instance enjoys sexualized females (as long as it isn't so ridiculously over the top) as it is sort of like a "oh that's hot or sexy" kinda thing. I actually don't experience too many females offput by MOST designs in games, at least not comparatively to what I see online. In fact it seems to be a lot of males proclaiming the absurdity as of late.

I will also say that male characters are hardly "normal." While it isn't comparable as far as the clothing goes, most male video game designs are muscular, ab ridden "regular" guys. Most men don't look like they can bench a Chevy. It's all power/sexual fantasy but the characters like Nathan Drake are as far and few between as the NEW Lara Croft.

I'm not trying to defend it and women are misrepresented WORSE than males, but I wouldn't say MORE often.

Yeah, but muscular dudes in games aren't there to appeal to female players, they're there to make male players feel as cool as those guys, because for the duration of playing the game as that characters, the player "is" that character. There's a difference between cool characters and characters that are ridiculously proportioned and improperly clothed. Snake is muscular and cool to make the player feel cool, original Lara Croft looks like she does to get dudes hard.

Arion · Nov 7, 2017

Skade said:
Seriously ?

I can accept many things in video games, super powers and whatnot. But a bikini as an armor just does not make any sense. Would it be imbued with magic or technology generating a force field or whatever around it would still make no sense. The second the force field fails, you'd be left with absolutely nothing.

No matter the situation, a bikini cannot be justified as a proper battle armor. Same goes of course for the famed barbarian loincloth.

I think we simply see things differently. You may need a justification for things to be in games but I think things can exist in games without any justification whatsoever.

EDIT: There is no way to justify a lot of things in games but that doesn't make it wrong.

Oynox · Nov 7, 2017

Cid said:
And they get much time of work for free when they get children and men don't

Where I live, even men often get free time if their partner bears a child.

Gotdatmoney said:
No where on planet earth is this true.

Somewhere it is.

Ferrs said:
So, where you live women aren't catcalled at the street?
Where you live men are sexually harassed and raped more than women?
Where you live women are paid more than men at work? Also tend to hold higher opsitions at workplaces?

Also I bet the missing thing is just bullshit, but it happens that women tend to be missing more than men. I wonder why!

I do not fully endorse what the poster you quoted said, but I am pretty sure he did not say what you implied.

Also, it is not about paying women more than men or have men being more often sexually harassed than women but about equalizing them. There is no point of giving women better advantages because then we would have the same problem over again in some hundred years. Just the other way around.

Gotdatmoney said:
More men are murdered by other men. More women are also murdered by men. You're seriously implying this mean that society treats men worse?

I am seriously astounded what you read into his posts... it's like some of you put your words in the mouth of others.

BlacJack · Nov 7, 2017

Jackson said:
Yeah, but muscular dudes in games aren't there to appeal to female players, they're there to make male players feel as cool as those guys, because for the duration of playing the game as that characters, the player "is" that character. There's a difference between cool characters and characters that are ridiculously proportioned and improperly clothed. Snake is muscular and cool to make the player feel cool, original Lara Croft looks like she does to get dudes hard.

I suppose, but that's why I even brought up my wife as an example. Some girls DO enjoy playing as sexy females.

Why is it developers only add sexy females to boost sales, but muscular men are added because it's cool? I feel like we are arguing semantics at this point. Are you implying sales would fall equally if males were created to look less muscular and "cool?" As that is what us guys like?

Or maybe sexiness sells in general, both male and female...

Silvard · Nov 7, 2017

Cid said:
Just come and see
I actually think the women I know are happier than I am
Majority of students at universities is female now and the majority of judges also and so on and on

And don't even start to compare the USA to the Netherlands as being the same
That country even has a president that has proven big issues with women
Our last "leader" called a women journalist only "nice" and got in trouble over it
That is unthinkable in the Netherlands to have a country-leader like that but in the USA people actually voted for that guy

If you're honestly interested in making arguments in good faith then you're going to have to present actual supporting evidence. The plural of anecdote is not data.

Silky · Nov 7, 2017

I think your frustrations are valid and (at least this is what I'd like to think) I believe we're in a pretty okay spot when it comes to a variety of female character designs, both sexualized and non sexualized.

Nowadays it takes a lot for me to tolerate the character design of a game, and that limit usually comes down to if the game is actually fun to play or not. If it's something like Senran Kagura -- where titties are out everywhere essentially but the combat / general gameplay is a repetitive, shallow nyquill session -- then I don't see the need to reason to support a title like that. However something like DOA5 or Skullgirls -- games with great gameplay mechanics -- I'd typically invest more time into.

Metal Gear Solid 5 is an awful game anyway so I'm glad I can cut my investment into that series at the '4' part.

Kemono · Nov 7, 2017

Skade said:
Seriously ?

I can accept many things in video games, super powers and whatnot. But a bikini as an armor just does not make any sense. Would it be imbued with magic or technology generating a force field or whatever around it would still make no sense. The second the force field fails, you'd be left with absolutely nothing.

No matter the situation, a bikini cannot be justified as a proper battle armor. Same goes of course for the famed barbarian loincloth.

aboriginal warrior

Unaha-Closp · Nov 7, 2017

I hear you OP. I am a man and I like women and their associated parts but damn if it isn't crass and immature to see fully clothed men and barely clothed women in video games. The Quiet thing is stupid - she can wear a skirt if she needs to breath or a T-shirt and Shorts - the only reason she is in the attire she is in so we can ogle her. Just come out and say it Kojima. Unfortunately we treat women appallingly all over the world so why would videogames treat them any better? It's going to take societal change on a global scale to treat women as human beings alas. You would think it wouldn't be that hard.....there is one sentient species on Earth. Just the one. It's not like we are bombarded and confused by myriad species. There is only us. 1 Species. Small minded bloody humans. Anyway I may be getting off topic here and my misanthropy is showing.

Briarios · Nov 7, 2017

Cid said:
Just come and see
I actually think the women I know are happier than I am
Majority of students at universities is female now and the majority of judges also and so on and on

And don't even start to compare the USA to the Netherlands as being the same
That country even has a president that has proven big issues with women
Our last "leader" called a women journalist only "nice" and got in trouble over it
That is unthinkable in the Netherlands to have a country-leader like that but in the USA people actually voted for that guy

https://www.rt.com/news/408637-dutch-rape-metoo-tv/

Please, you're discounting the women in your own country the same way men do in America ...

45% of Dutch women have been assaulted

https://www.iamexpat.nl/expat-info/dutch-expat-news/45-cent-dutch-women-have-been-assaulted

I'm in no way suggesting your country is worse off than any other, but what I'm suggesting is that you're contributing to the silence about the issues by pressing that there are none. The whole "men's rights" thing in the US says the same thing, "Women are better off then men, they're happier, so we don't need feminism or protections for them."

I think you should probably talk to some women about these issues. You may be surprised. And, how women are portrayed in media definitely affects how men view women.

Silvard · Nov 7, 2017

Kemono said:
aboriginal warrior

What's this even supposed to be proof of? Are the games where these bikini armors show up based on aboriginal settings? Or in regular old medieval fantasy settings where everyone else has full body armor?

Are people allergic to not being intellectually disingenuous?

silver moose · Nov 7, 2017

That was a really good write up honestly. Too many people see the issue as people being prudish or what have you, but like you said, if the clothing makes sense in the context of the game, that's one thing. If it's blatant horn dog fan service, it's sad really.

It's a slow change, but I do think that slowly...very slowly, video games are changing for the better with more positive designs of female characters.
We've a loooong way to go, don't get me wrong, but I'm hopeful.

Silky · Nov 7, 2017

Kemono said:
aboriginal warrior

post the rest of the aboriginal warriors in games then

Moogle · Nov 7, 2017

Mr.Deadshot said:
Fun thing: I don't know a single women in real life that complains about sexualised characters. I even have a friend who does cosplay of those characters.

Fun thing: when women voice their concerns over representations, we're often immediately shut down and shut out of the conversation with the usual bullshit platitudes of 'just ignore it and it will stop bothering you, you're too sensitive, it doesn't affect me so it's not an issue' amongst other handwaving and dismissive responses from men. Those very same predictable, bogus arguments can be found in this thread, unsurprisingly. Saying the same thing over and over to a brick wall that refuses to hear it is just exhausting.

LuisGarcia · Nov 7, 2017

Sorry if you have said this elsewhere in the thread but what games and characters are you refering to? Thinking back over the big games this year Western games in particular have all had non sexual character designs.

In fact i'm struggling to think of any Western game which has had overly sexualised female characters that has come out in the last few years. Not saying there isn't any just can't think of one.

Most games which come with over sexualised female characters come out of Japan which I can't really see changing any time soon.

Skade · Nov 7, 2017

Arion said:
I think we simply see things differently. You may need a justification for things to be in games but I think things can exist in games without any justification whatsoever.

It's mostly a case of suspension of disbelief.

To me, human skin is human skin, no matter the world it stay as fragile anywhere. So if you go to battle against bullets or sharp weapons, you need proper protection. I don't really care for the gameplay, the number of health points and whatnot. I care for a bit of realism, so the protection NEEDS to feel realistic. And obviously, this doesn't go well with the 80% bare skin designs.

SolidSnakex · Nov 7, 2017

LuisGarcia said:
Sorry if you have said this elsewhere in the thread but what games and characters are you refering to? Thinking back over the big games this year Western games in particular have all had non sexual character designs.

In fact i'm struggling to think of any Western game which has had overly sexualised female characters that has come out in the last few years. Not saying there isn't any just can't think of one.

Most games which come with over sexualised female characters come out of Japan which I can't really see changing any time soon.

Overwatch would be the most obvious for western designs that are sexualized.

Pirate Bae · Nov 7, 2017

Audioboxer said:
This starts to verge on violence in video games causes real-world violence. I'm sorry, but the behaviour of individuals who actually harass people should not be used as blanket evidence to infer a whole medium, or sexual fantasy, which many can enjoy, is the root cause of people behaving like shits.

Women often have a lot more pressure than men to conform to beauty standards, this is known and can lead to lots of psychological issues, self-confidence issues and worse. That still doesn't mean those experiencing and enjoying fantasy or being sexually stimulated should just be lumped in as part of some overall problem. Both sexes seek out sexual stimulation, the science just shows in regards to men it is generally visual stimulation more than reading/thoughts/speaking in groups (women are more likely to talk about sexual desires/experiences or fantasies with each other). Men are routinely personal and individual in their sexual desires, so self-satisfaction visually and alone.

That's partly my point, but it's also why I struggle to put my finger on why some are far more hostile to fantasy/make-believe than reality?

Flip your thinking. It's not that women as sex symbols cause societal problems, but rather societal problems cause women as media sex symbols.

We differ in that you don't think there's a problem, whereas I vehemently disagree. Yes, both sexes like sex. I love it, and I won't deny it. But the issue is not sex; it's the perception of women by male designers (predominantely), which is caused by a societal view of women by men (predominately, not exclusively) and it's reflection in media, whether that be movies, comics, or in this case, video games.

The problem has existed for centuries and you're in denial if you won't acknowledge it.

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

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