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Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,571
Then use a different term for the wide swaths of corrosive folks. Having people you find corrosive mixed in with actual NAZIs waters down he term completely

Unfortunately, it is an acknowledgment of reality. Movements tend to work in terms of coalitions, and the alt-right is not an exception to that. Navigating around the alt-right requires more than questioning "okay, who here is an out-and-out white supremacist?"; it also requires looking at how people like Steve Bannon and Milo Yiannopoulos coopted it, how things like GamerGate overlapped with it, how fascists and "free speech" activists use each other, and so on.

This, from Vox, is just scratching the surface:

The label blends together straight-up white supremacists, nationalists who think conservatives have sold out to globalization, and nativists who fear immigration will spur civil disarray. But at its core are the ideas of a movement known as neoreaction, and neoreaction (NRx for short) is a rejection of democracy.

So I'm not saying to simply throw every harmful person into the alt-right mix. I'm saying these groups are directly intertwined and amplifying each other. You could probably convince me that, on balance, we should be more cautious with how we use the term alt-right; however, I suspect there's an element of "the best way to understand x is to look at it through a very narrow lens and otherwise you're watering it down" going on there, and that's rarely helpful to anyone, whether x refers to the term alt-right, the term Nazi, or the term racist.
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
That comes off to me as passive racism/microaggression to me. He's basically buying into stereotypes and assigning it as a positive experience in like a halfway between a normal negative stereotype and a more positive "Asians are good at math"-like one. It doesn't make him a monster, it makes him a dumbass.
He literally called a theatre full of black people 'planet of the apes' and how it was just like Africa.

He may not have meant it as a negative which would indeed make him stupid but it doesn't take away from the fact he is racist enough to joke that black people are apes which is pretty fucking disgusting either way.
 
Jun 10, 2018
8,867
if you give racists and white nationalists a platform while refusing to truly challenge them, there's an argument to be made that you too are belong in those categories.
This - all the way this.

Here's something for a quick thought exercise:

What's the difference between A) someone who blatantly spouts white nationalist rhetoric and B) someone who never expresses such views but rides along with people who do?

Hold that thought, while keeping in mind how we rightfully condemn Daryl Davis for the company he keeps. Now I ask: Why is it we can see the bullshit for what it is with Davis, yet with Rogan he gets granted the "plausible deniability" defense force?
 

moomoo14

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
441
None of the people in that photo are alt-right. Alt-right is literally white supremacists or people who take up the term like Milo. Shapiro in particular is vehemently against the alt-right and has stated so many times.
 

Papaya

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,475
California
alt-right was a term created by Richard Spencer to conceal the Nazi image
I know. They are desperate to appeal to the masses. That's why I'm not a fan of calling Rogan an alt-figure, because that very much plays into their wanted image. Rogan is an idiot, but he doesn't believe in genocide, or many key alt-righter themes. Not even close.
 

AYF 001

Member
Oct 28, 2017
828
None of the people in that photo are alt-right. Alt-right is literally white supremacists or people who take up the term like Milo. Shapiro in particular is vehemently against the alt-right and has stated so many times.
Shapiro worked for Breitbart. If that doesn't speak for itself, there's been plenty of discussion about him here you could search through to see what he's like.
 

Syder

The Moyes are Back in Town
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
12,543
Really? Would be funny to hear him refer to himself as an intellectual so please lmk next time he says it on his podcast.

Must not be that big of an idiot though if he got someone who thinks he's an idiot hooked on multiple of his podcasts lol.
I'm an MMA fan, he gets good MMA guests, I stopped listening to the other stuff a while back. The podcast stopped being interesting and entertaining a long time ago. The best you'll get out of the stupidity that's frequently displayed on it is laughing at shit Brendan Schaub says.

BrendanSchaub1.png
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
He literally called a theatre full of black people 'planet of the apes' and how it was just like Africa.

He may not have meant it as a negative which would indeed make him stupid but it doesn't take away from the fact he is racist enough to joke that black people are apes which is pretty fucking disgusting either way.

I'm not disagreeing. I think a lot of people still can't wrap their head around something framed as a positive being racist, even though we've known for a very long time now that it's harmful. I see it as one step above my mom saying "I love going to the movies with black people because they talk to it like I do". Not malicious, but still an ignorant thing to say. Of course my mom isn't dumb enough to call black people apes, everyone should know better at this point.
 

Mikebison

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,036
Rogan is a knob and is just following the money. Have people like Peterson and Shapiro on his show makes him mad bank.

But I wouldn't call him alt-right.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
76,219
Providence, RI
This - all the way this.

Here's something for a quick thought exercise:

What's the difference between A) someone who blatantly spouts white nationalist rhetoric and B) someone who never expresses such views but rides along with people who do?

Hold that thought, while keeping in mind how we rightfully condemn Daryl Davis for the company he keeps. Now I ask: Why is it we can see the bullshit for what it is with Davis, yet with Rogan he gets granted the "plausible deniability" defense force?

Crap. I said "you too are belong" and got quoted. That is now frozen in history.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,346
He's not. Casual listener so maybe I'm biased. Joe does seem very much interested in alternative media.

A few things, where are the liberal guest. Well, where are they? One thing you notice about that picture is that most of those men ha e created cult of personality following online. I don't see many liberal voices doing this. Anyone remember Air America radio? It was a left wing take on conservative talk radio and it failed. Looking at demographics trends, liberal prefer satire and fiction. There are very few liberal provocateurs as well. Liberals have become boring. I say this as one. Peak liberalism in the entertainment sphere was the Stewart Daily Show.

You may disagree with the men he has in the picture but the show passion and conviction. That's why they gain followings.

The most fiery liberal political voice on the last few months was from Maxine Waters, and she was publically censured by leadership.

Yes, liberals dominate the entertainment world, but we've rarely created personality cults like the right has.

Joe Rogan, being an entertainer, will rather have people like those in the pic because, agree or not, those guys really believe what they say and that makes a compelling interview.

My question, where are the liberal firebrands in this new internet era. I've caught some of their stuff and it seems to lack oomph. However, watching stuff like stand up, where liberals dominate, and there is usually a much more interesting presentation of liberal POVs. Check out Chapelle's The Bird Revelation, where he riffs on racism and slavery in a master class of comedy. That's were liberal shine. Or the Jeremiad's of Ta-Nahesi Coates. But I don't think we've found our voice in editorialized YT programming. Honestly, Trump has made us less humorous and compelling in many ways.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
He's not. Casual listener so maybe I'm biased. Joe does seem very much interested in alternative media.

A few things, where are the liberal guest. Well, where are they? One thing you notice about that picture is that most of those men ha e created cult of personality following online. I don't see many liberal voices doing this. Anyone remember Air America radio? It was a left wing take on conservative talk radio and it failed. Looking at demographics trends, liberal prefer satire and fiction. There are very few liberal provocateurs as well. Liberals have become boring. I say this as one. Peak liberalism in the entertainment sphere was the Stewart Daily Show.

You may disagree with the men he has in the picture but the show passion and conviction. That's why they gain followings.

The most fiery liberal political voice on the last few months was from Maxine Waters, and she was publically censured by leadership.

Yes, liberals dominate the entertainment world, but we've rarely created personality cults like the right has.

Joe Rogan, being an entertainer, will rather have people like those in the pic because, agree or not, those guys really believe what they say and that makes a compelling interview.

My question, where are the liberal firebrands in this new internet era. I've caught some of their stuff and it seems to lack oomph. However, watching stuff like stand up, where liberals dominate, and there is usually a much more interesting presentation of liberal POVs. Check out Chapelle's The Bird Revelation, where he riffs on racism and slavery in a master class of comedy. That's were liberal shine. Or the Jeremiad's of Ta-Nahesi Coates. But I don't think we've found our voice in editorialized YT programming.

That doesn't seem to be true to me at all. Its probably just that right leaning personalities tend spread more in your own internet bubble.
 

BoosterDuck

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,681
None of the people in that photo are alt-right. Alt-right is literally white supremacists or people who take up the term like Milo. Shapiro in particular is vehemently against the alt-right and has stated so many times.
lol you think Little Shapiro is against the alt-right when he does college speeches to create violence, runs the super slanted Daily Wire, meets with Coulter, Rubin, Milo, Peterson, Lauren, etc., lost his shit at Black Panther and basically parrots 95% of alt-right talking points
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,346
That doesn't seem to be true to me at all. Its probably just that right leaning personalities tend spread more in your own internet bubble.
Do you have examples of alternatives with similar followings that are not entertainers?

I know the podcasts. I'm talking of single personalities with their own platforms.

I honestly think it's a feature and not a bug. Liberals aren't as follow the leader as conservatives are. We're more diverse in our followings.

Conservative are sycophants to a fault. Look at the Reagan worship.
 

WaffleTaco

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,908
He's transphobic so he's already a horrible person. At that point who cares? Why defend him at all?
 

moomoo14

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
441
Shapiro worked for Breitbart. If that doesn't speak for itself, there's been plenty of discussion about him here you could search through to see what he's like.
He quit working there years ago and has repeatedly described Steve Bannon as one of the most vile people on the planet. In terms of him not being alt-right, here's him talking about it: https://youtu.be/QXjOHRReURg

It's fine to describe him as an idiot, bigot, whatever, but I don't know how you could all him alt-right. I don't think he could be more clear (besides taking time between his words to not speak at the speed of light).
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
Do you have examples of alternatives with similar followings that are not entertainers?
Check out the Leftist YouTube thread on this forum. Though they have similar followings to those right wing personalities none of these people can match the number of followings. It's just easier to make money on the internet by catering to the right. Far more easier for a Candace Owens to go viral saying something to the effect of "slavery was a choice" or whatever her platform is than for a Contrapoints making a vid about systemic racism. The biggest websites on the internet definitely lean right. It's not surprise to me that right leaning personalities have bigger followings but leftist personalities definitely are out there with modest followings of their own.
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,991
I know. They are desperate to appeal to the masses. That's why I'm not a fan of calling Rogan an alt-figure, because that very much plays into their wanted image. Rogan is an idiot, but he doesn't believe in genocide, or many key alt-righter themes. Not even close.

"Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not because they hated Jews, but out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values, or dislike of their opponents, or raw political opportunism, or convenience, or ignorance, or greed.

"That word is 'Nazi.' Nobody cares about their motives anymore.

"They joined what they joined. They lent their support and their moral approval. And, in so doing, they bound themselves to everything that came after. Who cares any more what particular knot they used in the binding?"

-Julius Goat
 

AndrewDean84

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,595
Fontana, California
I dont know about alt right. I mean, maybe. But then again, I know he isn't racist, but I always think alt right and racists are 1:1.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,346
Check out the Leftist YouTube thread on this forum. Though they have similar followings to those right wing personalities none of these people can match the number of followings. It's just easier to make money on the internet by catering to the right. Far more easier for a Candace Owens to go viral saying something to the effect of "slavery was a choice" or whatever her platform is than for a Contrapoints making a vid about systemic racism. The biggest websites on the internet definitely lean right.
That's what I mean. I'm not saying the don't exist. I know there are many lefty YT and content creators, but they are not as popular as the guys in that pic.

I mean, this is a liberal board, and many topics, like this one are about one of those guys lol. Heck, we have a huge Jordan Peterson mega thread.

I guess that's the conundrum. They're make more money catering to the Right and the Left comes in gives them more attention lol.
 

AnansiThePersona

Started a revolution but the mic was unplugged
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,682
If you uhh....lie with dogs....you can't get mad if someone says you have fleas. Isn't that a saying or something?
 

Quad Lasers

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,542
None of the people in that photo are alt-right. Alt-right is literally white supremacists or people who take up the term like Milo. Shapiro in particular is vehemently against the alt-right and has stated so many times.

Of all the posts in this thread, this might be the most hilarious.

Shapiro is so brazenly racist it's comical. You do not stand within 6 feet of this fucker and not have shit particulates start sticking to you.
 

ninjabot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
734
I'm in a weird spot with Rogan. I listen to his show, but only when there're people on there that I don't hate. Like... I'll listen if Bill Nye is on there, or Neil Degrasse Tyson... or someone progressive or knowledgeable about things I wanna hear them shoot the shit about. But I avoid any of them with conservative types, only watching the one Stephen Crowder one to see them get into that argument about weed, and then the following one where he brought his co-host to back him up because I thought we'd get more fighting but it was just a whole "Antifa are worse than actual Nazis" show I regret listening to.

I dunno. I'd say his show is harmful because it puts a lot of shitty dudes on there to share their shitty opinions.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
That's what I mean. I'm not saying the don't exist. I know there are many lefty YT and content creators, but they are not as popular as the guys in that pic.

I mean, this is a liberal board, and many topics, like this one are about one of those guys lol. Heck, we have a huge Jordan Peterson mega thread.

I guess that's the conundrum. They're make more money catering to the Right and the Left comes in gives them more attention lol.
that's very true. Although Lindsay Ellis' videos get threads here and Hbomberguy and Contrapoints got some threads for their content back on Gaf. But since someone like Ellis is doing like research and journalism and not sensationalist bullshit her content is not going to go viral like a Candace Owens video would. The internet is just more privy to gobbling up bullshit from the right cause the internet itself is right leaning
 

XAL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
373
Everything I've heard from Joe Rogan indicates to me that he's a moderate - leaning left on certain issues, leaning right on others.

Alt-Right is far end of the right past repub/neocon (the total rejection of any mainstream conservative beliefs/ideas), past tea party even - Alt-Right is literally just white nationalists/KKK/neo-nazis and people in their immediate orbit aka the worst bigots and racists on the spectrum.

I'm positive Joe Rogan isn't that.

I would say most of the people in that photo are just right wing or right leaning moderates (in a general sense), I think Dave Rubin is the only one who flirts a little too close to alt-right folk in the sense of shilling or pandering but I'm not an expert or reading a TON about the alt-right. Most of the people in that photo I'm pretty sure have outright condemned the entirety of the alt-right.

I'd say the only thing he's probably guilty of is giving a platform to people like Alex Jones and Milo Y. (outside of their own big, successful platforms) - though the interviews he's done with those two have only further proven those guys to be the utter dumbfuck shitheels that they are. Usually the dumb, shock-driven people don't look any better after going on his show.

I generally enjoy listening to his episodes where he talks to people on the moderate right/right/far right, I'm on the complete other side of the political spectrum from these people (San Francisco liberal, Bernie and Hillary voter) so it's interesting to actually see these people engage in a long conversation with someone that challenges them and probes them - typically those figures only speak out to their audience on podcasts/sites I would never care to read or engage with mainstream media where it's all just soundbites and yelling. You see the wheels turning in these people's heads (ie:Petersen, Harris) or you see them doggedly stick to a script like a moron (ie: Candace Owens, Milo), I find it pretty illuminating to see them in a more casual setting.

(I haven't seen read/everything so if this is incorrect let me know)
 
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Sinfamy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,724
I ate dinner and had a beer with Bret Weinstein when he came to Portland, am I alt-right?
Jesus Christ this forum.

Dave Rubin is a disingenuous blowhard though.
No? I would question whether or not you are a shitty person if you continued to hang out with him again though.



But thats not the same as whats happening here. Ben Shapiro is a known Alt-Reich shitheel and has been for a very long time now. Same goes for all of his goons. Someone who is as socially aware as Rogan knows that and chose to hang out with him anyway. Rogan choosing to do that shows that at the very least he really is the shitty person we all knew he was, but this points to a potentially lower level of shittiness than what some people would expect from him.



People get judged by the company they keep. If you choose to surround yourself with shitty people then guess what? You are probably a shitty person.
Ben Shapiro is a straight up neocon, I don't see how he's more alt-right then someone like Dick Cheney.
He makes terrible right wing arguments, but /pol/ hates him for being Jewish. I don't see how he's part of the "Reich", you can easily call him a bigot, but he's just as shitting as any other Republican as far as I can tell, the only difference is the platform he's on and the audience he has. The same alt-right constantly calls for "the day of the rope" on him and has harassed his sister numerous times. Not trying to defend him, I disagree with him on practically everything, but he's not Richard Spencer tier.
 
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Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,289
I ate dinner and had a beer with Bret Weinstein when he came to Portland, am I alt-right?
Jesus Christ this forum.

Dave Rubin is a disingenuous blowhard though.

No? I would question whether or not you are a shitty person if you continued to hang out with him again though.



But thats not the same as whats happening here. Ben Shapiro is a known Alt-Reich shitheel and has been for a very long time now. Same goes for all of his goons. Someone who is as socially aware as Rogan knows that and chose to hang out with him anyway. Rogan choosing to do that shows that at the very least he really is the shitty person we all knew he was, but this points to a potentially lower level of shittiness than what some people would expect from him.



People get judged by the company they keep. If you choose to surround yourself with shitty people then guess what? You are probably a shitty person.
 

degauss

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,631
I gotta say this current modern trend of scorched earth call everyone an alt right nazi who should be purged from society is really worrying.

I imagine trump is sitting at his desk like the emperor in return of the Jedi "yes, yes, late the hate flow through you".
 

XAL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
373
No? I would question whether or not you are a shitty person if you continued to hang out with him again though.

But thats not the same as whats happening here. Ben Shapiro is a known Alt-Reich shitheel and has been for a very long time now. Same goes for all of his goons. Someone who is as socially aware as Rogan knows that and chose to hang out with him anyway. Rogan choosing to do that shows that at the very least he really is the shitty person we all knew he was, but this points to a potentially lower level of shittiness than what some people would expect from him.

People get judged by the company they keep. If you choose to surround yourself with shitty people then guess what? You are probably a shitty person.

Serious question, how do people change/come off of the far-right end of the spectrum if people in the middle/left end of the spectrum won't be friends with them or shun/ridicule them?

To the best of my knowledge, people coming off of being racist/super right wing only usually happens when people not that are friends with them and over time expose them to different thinking. (ie reformed racists, etc)

I guess for most the people in the photo, they make a business off of being right wing or engaging with the right wing so what I've said probably doesn't apply to them specifically - I'm speaking more broadly for the average person.

I have a friend that I've been playing games with online for like 15 years, he's from Texas and I'm from San Francisco and maybe 7 years ago we became more acutely aware of each other's political stances and that period was a lot of yelling and shouting and whatnot. He was extremely homophobic and racist, and I seriously considered dumping him as a person I played games with - but I decided not to. Now years later, he's definitely no longer homophobic and no longer racist - I think in large part to me speaking to him about LGBTQ stuff he's not familiar with and appealing to logic and sense, we both have a buddy who is black start playing with us and the racism dropped off real fast. Had I or our black friend shunned him/left, he would most likely still be racist and homophobic. He holds some positions on the left now or left of center, or center - which would have been impossible 7 years ago had he not had friends that he liked exposing him occasionally to different ideas/thoughts. He's not on moderate/left quite yet, certain things like transgender and pronouns and more recent movements are still a bit hard for him to grasp because he has no personal experience with them but if he was able to move from far right towards middle I'm pretty sure there is room for him to move. And I wasn't trying to evangelize/actively convert him or anything, this was just natural casual exposure to us over time (with us not particularly talking about politics on a regular basis).

So the other question is, is refusing to engage and challenge people a good idea?

I think it's a terrible idea.
 
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Doran

Member
Jun 9, 2018
1,849
I gotta say this current modern trend of scorched earth call everyone an alt right nazi who should be purged from society is really worrying.

I imagine trump is sitting at his desk like the emperor in return of the Jedi "yes, yes, late the hate flow through you".

I legit think its scaring liberals to the other side towards the Trumps of the world out of fear / self preservation.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,289
Serious question, how do people change/come off of the far-right end of the spectrum if people in the middle/left end of the spectrum won't be friends with them or shun/ridicule them?

To the best of my knowledge, people coming off of being racist/super right wing only usually happens when people not that are friends with them and over time expose them to different thinking. (ie reformed racists, etc)

I guess for most the people in the photo, they make a business off of being right wing or engaging with the right wing so what I've said probably doesn't apply to them specifically - I'm speaking more broadly for the average person.

I have a friend that I've been playing games with online for like 15 years, he's from Texas and I'm from San Francisco and maybe 7 years ago we became more acutely aware of each other's political stances and that period was a lot of yelling and shouting and whatnot. He was extremely homophobic and racist, and I seriously considered dumping him as a person I played games with - but I decided not to. Now years later, he's definitely no longer homophobic and no longer racist - I think in large part to me speaking to him about LGBTQ stuff he's not familiar with and appealing to logic and sense, we both have a buddy who is black start playing with us and the racism dropped off real fast. Had I or our black friend shunned him/left, he would most likely still be racist and homophobic. He holds some positions on the left now or left of center, or center - which would have been impossible 7 years ago had he not had friends that he liked exposing him occasionally to different ideas/thoughts. He's not on moderate/left quite yet, certain things like transgender and pronouns and more recent movements are still a bit hard for him to grasp because he has no personal experience with them but if he was able to move from far right towards middle I'm pretty sure there is room for him to move. Not trying to convert him or anything, this was just casual exposure to us over time.

So the other question is, is refusing to engage and challenge people a good idea?

I think it's a terrible idea.

Yeah no thanks. If you wanna be friends with homophobes and racists then thats on you and that does in fact make you a shitty person in my book. Now if you were to refuse to be social with them until they genuinely change their attitude and THEN be friends with them then thats fine.



But straight up being friends with racist and homophobic assholes waiting for them to decide members of the LGBTQ community or PoC are in fact actual human beings? No thank you. You can piss off with that line of thinking.
 
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