“Ban Chinese electric vehicles now,” demands U.S. senator (Ars Technica)
- Thread starter RBH
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Oh i'm doing fine. Nice product, just a 2800kg car that requires a 111kwh battery to move. Perfect for the environment 💀 I see that some of the units will be made in China as well, absolutely perfect.
The battery is also 100% made in China 😭😭 I'm sure they followed all the best practices to ensure the production had a minimal impact on the environment.
You're not wrong, but repairing it is still the cheaper option, and a Civic is a reliable enough car where keeping it going is worth it.
I wouldn't say they're Chinese, but they are owned by a Chinese company and some of the cars are built there. But they still design and build cars in Europe, and still operate somewhat on their own.
Volvo Cars remains headquartered in Torslanda in Gothenburg, Sweden. I understand a Chinese holding company owns them, but that doesn't mean the corporation is a Chinese entity or that their cars are suddenly designed in China now.
This is an embarrassing post. I'm supposed to feel worse about driving my electric car than you feel driving an ICE car because my car uses parts from China and weighs more, due to the battery, and you're actually attempting to spread the old "worse for the environment" FUD while you're at it.
What is even going on in this thread? I'm out.
You'd think that. But all of the models that have been sold in America that are stripped, have very low range, and so on have sold like garbage outside of the bolt EV
It will continue in the world, just not in US (maybe, I still doubt the ban will happen)
Before doing that, I want you to explain a couple of things:
1. What does consistent treatment of gasoline and other carbon taxes look like in this calculation?
2. What percentage of EV sales in China does the free licensing scheme cover?
The second question is the more important one.
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Honest question - would this theoretical car compete with an off-lease $35k-$40k MSRP car with 25-35k miles on it, given a $4k point of sale rebate (money "on the hood") during a sale? I don't think it would.
The initial draft and the regulatory evolution of the incentives to US customers has been to make leases of new EVs very attractive (lower cap cost), and then sales of EVs coming off those leases more attractive.
This is all in keeping with one of the big pillars of the IRA-to build the cars in the US and meet the automakers in the US (which isn't just US automakers, but Japanese makes and European makes, many of which make their cars in the US already) where they are at-and create more unionized jobs. Key there is unionized, this part of the IRA was a big nod to union membership growth as part of a huge political fight by Democrats try to keep the union working class from polarizing to Republicans like the rest of the working class has.
Seriously. Funny how the market isn't allowed to decide when it might hurt western oligarchs.
The lease credit does not have a place of manufacture or sourcing requirement. That is why the Biden Administration was able to write regulations applying it to South Korean vehicles. In fact, various newspaper outlets were bragging about this feat when the regulations came out. You would have to: 1. compare off lease vehicles for both, where the only difference is the $4,000 used vehicle credit or 2. explain why the theoretical $20k vehicle would not be put up for lease.
I can kind of see this happening with the way the wind is blowing. It also depends on how popular Chineese brands can get in the US before they start regulating.
There is a lot of the opposite happening atm in China towards western companies, essentially kicking them out of entire industries.
I saw a BYD for the first time this week and it looked really nice at a glance.
There is a lot of the opposite happening atm in China towards western companies, essentially kicking them out of entire industries.
I saw a BYD for the first time this week and it looked really nice at a glance.
I just want to piggyback off this post to highlight what's going on between Brazil and China, because this is a global issue. 12-18 months ago we had all this talk about the BRICS coming together, alternative to the dollar yadda yadda yadda. Well lets fast forward to today. Brazil's chemical industry, other industries as well, but lets just focus on chemicals, is under serious pressure. Capacity is down by more than a third, they're accusing China of dumping, so they're threatening retaliatory tariffs. The alternative is for Brazil to do nothing, import chemicals, which will negatively impact their industry, layoffs all around, govt stabilizers/support kicks in, govt has to fund the stabilizers/support in the short term via debt issuance.
You can see why Brazil doesn't want this excess Chinese capacity to enter they're market. China has a lack of internal demand, they have to sell they're production somewhere, or they're the ones doing the furloughs/layoffs/factory closures instead of Brazil. China can stimulate internal demand with targeted fiscal support to households, they chose not to. And so the dance continues.
Folks can laugh at the oligarchs getting dunked on, but at the end of the day, they're fine, they'll live, the folks downstream not so much.
Is this an applicable comparison?
The proposed ban mainly targets EVs, because that is the main type of vehicle that China is exporting (and has a competitive edge in). We know what Chinese EV prices are like, because they have been exporting to Europe and Australia: $20,000 range for subcompact hatchbacks and $30,000 range for compact crossovers and compact sedans. The US has ICEs in this range, so it is really US EVs that need to come down in price to avoid being pushed out of the market.
The posters in the topic are against the US proposal because they want to phase out ICEs in favor of EVs, and they are fine with using Chinese EVs to do so. Similarly, they want to replace fossil fuels with renewable energy, and Chinese solar panels are welcome in this effort. I don't think either is a long-term sustainable option, but they are substantial improvements over the US taking however long it wants to decarbonize for geopolitical reasons. The posts here are driven by the recognition that a speedy transition out of fossil fuels will require cheap non-emitting replacements, and Chinese manufacturing is the most viable answer. That recognition drives much of the support for Chinese EVs (and solar). The thread would be quite different if the proposal targeted Chinese steel or cement.
What would be the comparable urgent need in Brazil's chemical industry?
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Don't be. I'm aware that it's not worth anything, but I don't care about that. I care about it's functionality. I've had it since 2006 and this is the first major repair that broke the $1k mark in 18 years.
If my next major bill doesn't come due for another 5 years, and then another 5 after that, I feel like I'm making out better than buying a new car that I can't afford. Now I have no disillusion that I can keep this going in perpetuity, but I'm going to make it last as long as I believe is feasible and hopefully this industry straightens itself out by the time I decide to shop in earnest.
My post was an add-on as to why even "traditional" trade partners are reluctant to deepen ties at this juncture, and I gave an example to illustrate, nothing more.
Yellen minced no words on how the admin feels over the last couple of weeks on EVs/solar, they repeatedly harped on having to absorb Chinese overcapacity. It'll be back and forth between the two, both sides trying to protect their workers/industry. I mean almost three years ago (maybe less) the admin blocked panels out of Malaysia, and a few other countries, that were set up as conduits to move Chinese panels into the US, a few months later they backtracked and opened imports again for 24 months. Things change, there's give and take, they're both trying to find balance.
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Chinese EV makers won’t get subsidies from Mexico after US pressure
Mexico has offered generous incentives for automakers in the past.
arstechnica.com
About the safety being on-par with European cars: Yes and no.
The BYD CEO is on record for saying that they will not release a car in Europe or Australia unless it can get a 5-star safety rating. This has to do with their marketing strategy. They want to be known as a brand that sells a car for about the price of the base trim of their competitors (or slightly cheaper), but with the features of the premium trim. They do not want to be known as a brand of cheap cars. Chinese automakers that export their own brands to Europe follow similar strategies.
This means that the automakers will refuse to release a model that they think cannot get a 5-star safety rating, or they will re-engineer the car until they think they can get the rating.
The BYD CEO is on record for saying that they will not release a car in Europe or Australia unless it can get a 5-star safety rating. This has to do with their marketing strategy. They want to be known as a brand that sells a car for about the price of the base trim of their competitors (or slightly cheaper), but with the features of the premium trim. They do not want to be known as a brand of cheap cars. Chinese automakers that export their own brands to Europe follow similar strategies.
This means that the automakers will refuse to release a model that they think cannot get a 5-star safety rating, or they will re-engineer the car until they think they can get the rating.
Ok then what about VW, BMW, and Mercedes? Their electric vehicles aren't crap
I wouldn't be surprised if BYD is building 5 million cars a year in 3 years, given they are likely to hit 3 million this year, which would make them slightly bigger than GM and Ford in terms of total cars sold.
The difference would be that the majority of that 5 million sales would still be inside China, which would mean BYD (along with the rest of the better run domestic Chinese automakers) will continue to take sales away from foreign joint venture (JV) automakers. In 3 years, I would say Mazda and Citroen's JVs will probably be toast, Ford and Hyundai Kia's JVs will be on the brink, Honda and Nissan's JVs will likewise suffer heavily, and even the big 3 JVs - VW, GM, and Toyota will have lost significant market share.
Outside of China, I would think in 3 years BYD will have gotten a pretty significant chunk of market in SE Asia and AUS/NZ markets, especially since their Thailand plant will be up and running churning out RHD drive cars for many of those markets. BYD would be poised to make a big push in Latin America at that time with their Brazil plant almost done and maybe a Mexico plant too. BYD will probably still only have a small foothold in Europe and zero access to the US market, but I think they'll probably be fine with that. Too much geopolitical risk in those regions, and BYD's bread and butter is still on lower end EVs.
Tesla is already backtracking on that Mexico factory and this supposed low cost Model 2 or whatever it is going to be called, probably with a lot of its resources directed at the high margin Cybertruck, and if Tesla is not careful, BYD is going to spread across every emerging world market and flooded them with low cost BEVs (and PHEVs) before Tesla even makes its own cheap EV.
It does seem crazy that maybe in 2026, BYD might sell 4.5 million cars in China and another 1 million cars outside of China, but I wouldn't be that surprised if they actually manage to do it. I mean who in 2020 would have predicted that BYD would be selling 3 million cars in 2023?
The difference would be that the majority of that 5 million sales would still be inside China, which would mean BYD (along with the rest of the better run domestic Chinese automakers) will continue to take sales away from foreign joint venture (JV) automakers. In 3 years, I would say Mazda and Citroen's JVs will probably be toast, Ford and Hyundai Kia's JVs will be on the brink, Honda and Nissan's JVs will likewise suffer heavily, and even the big 3 JVs - VW, GM, and Toyota will have lost significant market share.
Outside of China, I would think in 3 years BYD will have gotten a pretty significant chunk of market in SE Asia and AUS/NZ markets, especially since their Thailand plant will be up and running churning out RHD drive cars for many of those markets. BYD would be poised to make a big push in Latin America at that time with their Brazil plant almost done and maybe a Mexico plant too. BYD will probably still only have a small foothold in Europe and zero access to the US market, but I think they'll probably be fine with that. Too much geopolitical risk in those regions, and BYD's bread and butter is still on lower end EVs.
Tesla is already backtracking on that Mexico factory and this supposed low cost Model 2 or whatever it is going to be called, probably with a lot of its resources directed at the high margin Cybertruck, and if Tesla is not careful, BYD is going to spread across every emerging world market and flooded them with low cost BEVs (and PHEVs) before Tesla even makes its own cheap EV.
It does seem crazy that maybe in 2026, BYD might sell 4.5 million cars in China and another 1 million cars outside of China, but I wouldn't be that surprised if they actually manage to do it. I mean who in 2020 would have predicted that BYD would be selling 3 million cars in 2023?
gotta love how the US and other western imperialist countries tell the rest of the world that free market is the solution for us, then try to protect their industries, then put trillions into their military and research, then tell us that the commies are bad because they try to do the same process in their countries
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Small, well-built Chinese EV called the Seagull poses a big threat to the US auto industry
Small, well-built Chinese EV called the Seagull poses a big threat to the US auto industry
The car, Seagull, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12,000 in China.
apnews.com
If I needed a car I'd get that Seagull in a heartbeat. Small, efficient, cheap... I don't need large, inefficient, expensive...Small, well-built Chinese EV called the Seagull poses a big threat to the US auto industry
Small, well-built Chinese EV called the Seagull poses a big threat to the US auto industry
The car, Seagull, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12,000 in China.
Maybe it would be a good idea to start cost cutting by using 1 motor for 2 wipers.
I believe that person has absolutely no clue about cars.
Small, well-built Chinese EV called the Seagull poses a big threat to the US auto industry
Small, well-built Chinese EV called the Seagull poses a big threat to the US auto industry
The car, Seagull, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12,000 in China.
I'd definitely get one of these if I could.
Maybe it would be a good idea to start cost cutting by using 1 motor for 2 wipers.
I believe that person has absolutely no clue about cars.
lol seriously. Every car uses one motor for the front wipers. If there's one out there that has 2 then its very much an outlier.
We capitalism'd our way into this mess, we will capitalism our way out of it.
The more small, electric, but safe cars on the road to replace large gas guzzlers would be a dream come true. But something tells me the US auto makers don't quite grasp the concept.
Being generous I think it's a matter of bringing down complexity. There are lots of parts in that assembly. Every piece costs money and could break.Maybe it would be a good idea to start cost cutting by using 1 motor for 2 wipers.
I believe that person has absolutely no clue about cars.
Sure, but they said it needs only 1 wiper motor while other cars need 2.
Which is complete nonsense.
I really don't get this whole overcapacity talk from US/EU. For example I think Chinese car companies had around 2,5% market share in Europe and 60% - 75% of that was in UK because of some big deal with car rent company or something like that. On top of that it seems like EU is off by it's own predictions by 10 million cars from it's goal to put EVs on the road and one reason is that European manufacturers are not making enough cars in needed speed. I guess EU simply can't compete with China and even with joint subsidies, it would eventually lose because it cannot manfufacture as cheaply as China, at least until they can caught up in the automation of factories.
Wife and I have been down to one beater car for like 2 years. We both work from home so while inconvenient at times we have made it work. The prices here in US have just been unbelievable. Whether or not the Chinese vehicles are banned or tariffed to hell, I appreciate the disruption they are going to hopefully have on the status quo. The complete lack of budget vehicles from most of the major manufacturers is insane.
This post is made more funny and less funny at the same time because just today we had a post on another thread that was almost the same words but it was serious instead.
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Can't pose much of a threat if BYD is banned due to national security reasons.Small, well-built Chinese EV called the Seagull poses a big threat to the US auto industry
Small, well-built Chinese EV called the Seagull poses a big threat to the US auto industry
The car, Seagull, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12,000 in China.
What I find baffling about this discourse is that China has been manufacturing sub-$5k vehicles for years and this has never been a threat in the west because no one actually wants those cars here. They sell to a domestic and south East Asian audience and that's about it.
Fair or not there is a negative perception of build quality in Chinese manufacturing, no one who is looking at a Tesla is going to look at these budget vehicles as a serious alternative, at least not in America.
Fair or not there is a negative perception of build quality in Chinese manufacturing, no one who is looking at a Tesla is going to look at these budget vehicles as a serious alternative, at least not in America.
It saves on one wiper arm though - which I'll point out is nothing new either. Quite a few smaller cars use(d) a single wiper design, like Audi A2. It's just that probably the minimal added complexity to have two wipers is worth the larger visibility that two wipers provide during the rain.
Used to be the case with South Korean cars as well, but look at things now. I'm not old enough to have seen it first hand, but I've been told that even Japanese cars had the same stigma in US at one point, which seems laughable today.
I know quite a few folks who absolutely will if the price is much lower than a Tesla. I'm positive the price would be way more important than who makes it.
Folks buy Chinese built stuff all the time.
lol. If Tesla is the benchmark of build quality in the US, they really should be worried now.
I Drove A Bunch Of Chinese Cars And They Are Amazing: How China Learned To Build Better Cars While The West Was Sleeping - The Autopian
Chinese cars have been in the news lately, as they — to many — represent a threat to the American auto industry. At the same time, they represent a potential relief in what many see as an overly expensive EV landscape, and thus a way to potentially get more people to give up gas guzzlers […]
www.theautopian.com
