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Gemüsepizza

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,541
There is just no way in 2 years Sony will be able to ship a $500 console with that performance level inside of it, the 7nm GPUs (Navi) will likely get the GPU price down to ~$300 for something like that GPU, but the other components will keep the console coming out in 2020-2021 minimum.

But Sony doesn't pay retail prices, they pay much less than that, and they don't have to make a profit at launch. Also, they might use a cheaper memory solution like GDDR6, so that will further reduce the price. 12 TFLOPS in 2019 is not unrealistic imo.

I'd suggest that a rushed PS5 in 2019, would only be about twice as powerful as the PS4 Pro, which while being about 5 times more powerful than the base PS4, would be only 25% faster than XBOX (Scorpio) which would allow Microsoft to basically stay in the next generation with a product they released 2+ years earlier. Sony needs to go out there and shoot for ~7times base PS4 to minimum launch a next gen console IMO, so don't expect a PS5 until 2020 and it might cost $499 this time.

I think there is zero chance that Sony will release an 8 TFLOPS console in 2019. And I also doubt that they will launch much later. They have a chance to keep their momentum by releasing the PS5 before the Xbox Two, and making the Xbox One X obsolete after only 2 years. A PS5 teaser at the end of 2018 would put quite a lot of pressure on Microsoft.

The Xbox One X also won't be able to compete with the PS5, it only has a weak Jaguar CPU, when the PS5 will likely have a Ryzen 2 CPU. But I agree about the price.
 

John Bender

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,058
PS5 in 2020 would be perfect. 2019 is way too early for a good next gen jump. So I hope Sony won't rush anything. The PS4 and PS4 Pro combo is good for at least another 3 years.
Launch the PS5 in November 2020, with the best hardware possible for a $399 launch price & selling it for a small loss ( as I have said, make it as powerful as possible). Then, 3 or 4 years later, launch a PS5 Pro for $449.
Repeat. Another 7 year generation.
 
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z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
But Sony doesn't pay retail prices, they pay much less than that, and they don't have to make a profit at launch. Also, they might use a cheaper memory solution like GDDR6, so that will further reduce the price. 12 TFLOPS in 2019 is not unrealistic imo.
It's important to look at the other components, when I said ~$300 for a retail GPU matching Vega 64 in 2019, I was looking at a $200 mass market GPU for PS5, If you want ryzen with 8 cores, that is a massive CPU, and that will cost a lot, even mass market pricing on something like that would probably be too much, so maybe a 4 core 8 thread CPU? we are looking at ~$300 (give or take $20) for just the CPU/GPU for a console. Maybe they can get this all in a platform for $500 but it isn't a given, I'd say there is a large engineering feat here at that price. All those other components, more than 8GB of memory, (XBOX has 12GB, so I'd assume 16GB minimum for PS5 but they might want to go for 32GB incase they want/need to push 8k or 4k VR in that generation. Even with a loss, this sounds like a $600 machine, and if Sony is willing to loose $100? I mean PS4 sold at a $60 price loss iirc, and it was only 7 months after launch that they closed that gap, largely because 28nm process had become cheaper. 7nm will still be brand new in 2019, and expensive, remember that PS4 and XB1 came out 2 years after 28nm, at best holiday 2019 will only be 1 year after 7nm becomes available for the most expensive devices (High End Smart Phones)

I think there is zero chance that Sony will release an 8 TFLOPS console in 2019. And I also doubt that they will launch much later. They have a chance to keep their momentum by releasing the PS5 before the Xbox Two, and making the Xbox One X obsolete after only 2 years. A PS5 teaser at the end of 2018 would put quite a lot of pressure on Microsoft.

The Xbox One X also won't be able to compete with the PS5, it only has a weak Jaguar CPU, when the PS5 will likely have a Ryzen 2 CPU. But I agree about the price.

I agree that an 8TFLOPs console is in the cards, minimum would likely be a 10TFLOPs, but 12TFLOPs is what is expected, and in my opinion, needed for a real generation gap between PS4 (and pro) and PS5. I'm not sure about the XBOX's CPU being an issue, if the command processor for the API draw calls actually works as advertised? That is a huge lift off of the CPU's shoulders, I mean it won't match an 8 thread ryzen, but game designs really don't require that much more CPU power, even when you compare the CPUs in the XB1 and PS4 to last gen CPUs, the gap is no where near as big as it was with the GPU upgrade, maybe twice as fast. I'm also not sure that Microsoft is planning to move to a new generation after XBOX, they would likely look at another upgrade to their current platform in a similar form as smart phones. If I was a marketing exec over in Redmond, I'd call the next Xbox, Xbox gen 5. As the next one could be seen as the 5th version of the Xbox consoles. (XB1S is more like a 3.1)

PS5 in 2020 would be perfect. 2019 way too early for a good next gen jump. So I hope Sony won't rush anything. The PS4 and PS4 Pro combo is good for at least another 3 years.
Launch the PS5 in November 2020, with the best hardware possible for a $399 launch price & selling it for a small loss ( as I have said, make it as powerful as possible). Then, 3 or 4 years later, launch a PS5 Pro for $449.
Repeat. Another 7 year generation.

I also believe PS4 should hold until 2020 because 2019 seems too early to get all their announced software out. The original PS1 launched in 1994 in japan, and PS3 came 7 years after PS2 in japan, PS4 was the same. PS360 gen seemed so long because 360 launched in 2005, and started the gen 8 years before PS4/XB1, but with game development taking 3+ years, it's really not in anyone's best interest to launch a new generation. If PS4 keeps up in sales, there is little reason to do so either, with it passing 100m in 2019 and finally slowing in 2020 significantly, a new console in that year would be strategic for them IMO)
 

mejin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
698
I think there is zero chance that Sony will release an 8 TFLOPS console in 2019. And I also doubt that they will launch much later. They have a chance to keep their momentum by releasing the PS5 before the Xbox Two, and making the Xbox One X obsolete after only 2 years. A PS5 teaser at the end of 2018 would put quite a lot of pressure on Microsoft.

The Xbox One X also won't be able to compete with the PS5, it only has a weak Jaguar CPU, when the PS5 will likely have a Ryzen 2 CPU. But I agree about the price.

There is no need to rush. PS4 and XBO came at the same time and we all see the results. If you play right, time doesn't matter. Switch is also a good example. Only Microsoft can solve the problems of their damaged brand and Sony doesn't really need to react to what MS is doing cause they see the gaming market with different perspectives.

More than a stronger hardware, Sony knows that without support you can't go anywhere. That's the biggest problem for Xbo X and even so, we can't say yet what is the plan of Microsoft. Could they have another xbox machine for 2019? They already told us hardware doesn't matter, there is no traditional gen but services all the way. That's one of the reasons Sony can't really rush things, hardware is still important, even when they already recognized the money coming from MAU and microtransactions.

I don't say it's impossible PS5 in 2019, but if first and third party are not ready I can see it only coming 2020 or later.
 

WaqarYounis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
215
Theres no chance PS5 is coming out in 2019 in my opinion, 2020 is the earliest.

Matt has already hinted of PS5 coming earlier than 2020.

He also hinted this btw

MS's work on BC is great, no doubt about that, but count on your PS4 games working on the PS5 (and being improved).

But yeah..really enough good things can't be said about MS's work to bring 360 and OG XB games to the O
 

Kripton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
36
Portugal
Yea its hard to believe a PS5 being launched before 2020. To get a 400/500 console and still get the feeling "next gen". You either wait for hardware prices to get down or the jump wont be as high as most people want. Beside ps4 sales are huge no need to rush a new system.
 

black070

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,583
Matt has already hinted of PS5 coming earlier than 2020.

He also hinted this btw

Hmm, well I wouldn't be opposed to it - The Last of Us Part II and Death Stranding would make great cross-gen games for the launch lineup and such, I just feel PS4 still has some oil left in the tank. I always expected PS4 BC, that'll make a 2019 release sooner a lot easier to swallow.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Hmm, well I wouldn't be opposed to it - The Last of Us Part II and Death Stranding would make great cross-gen games for the launch lineup and such, I just feel PS4 still has some oil left in the tank. I always expected PS4 BC, that'll make a 2019 release sooner a lot easier to swallow.

Yeah, seems like Sony is cutting the PS4 short, I'll be very surprised if Sony launches a 12TFLOP console in 2019. I obviously believe Matt though, so I'm not saying I doubt Sony's intent to launch PS5 in 2019, I'll just be surprised by the performance of the machine if that is indeed it's performance level.
 

Mature

Member
Oct 25, 2017
144
I don't see PS5 happening any time soon. Sales dont seem to be slowing down at all. My personal guess will be 2020. Then again technology is moving pretty fast.
 

Nozem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
396
Personally I'm good with the PS4 for a few more years, no need to rush to PS5. 2020 seems fine.
 

John Bender

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,058
Personally I'm good with the PS4 for a few more years, no need to rush to PS5. 2020 seems fine.
I hope Sony is listening. No need to rush anything. Announce the PS5 in March 2020 with a new PlayStation Meeting event or at PSX 2019.
Again, sell it for a small loss (-$20 or -$30) to make it even more powerful and launch it in November 2020. Perfect!
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,297
I think it's perfectly reasonable they could be ready to launch the PS5 in 2019 but I think analysis of commercial performance with regards to the PS4 will definitely determine whether that's 'FY2019' or 'FY2020'. Remember there have been very few official price drops on the hardware and Sony also have a bit of logistics to work out (will PSVR be compatible with PS5 or will a new headset be required even for backwards compatibility for example). Either way there could be some cracking cross-gen launches (TLoU: Part II, Death Stranding, FFVII:Remake, Tsushima, Dreams etc.)
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,600
PS5 in 2020 would be perfect. 2019 is way too early for a good next gen jump. So I hope Sony won't rush anything. The PS4 and PS4 Pro combo is good for at least another 3 years.
Launch the PS5 in November 2020, with the best hardware possible for a $399 launch price & selling it for a small loss ( as I have said, make it as powerful as possible). Then, 3 or 4 years later, launch a PS5 Pro for $449.
Repeat. Another 7 year generation.

Basicly this…
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,866
PS5 in 2020 would be perfect. 2019 is way too early for a good next gen jump. So I hope Sony won't rush anything. The PS4 and PS4 Pro combo is good for at least another 3 years.
Launch the PS5 in November 2020, with the best hardware possible for a $399 launch price & selling it for a small loss ( as I have said, make it as powerful as possible). Then, 3 or 4 years later, launch a PS5 Pro for $449.
Repeat. Another 7 year generation.
Why is it too early? All PS4 games will run on PS5, it won't stop PS4 games from being made. But you can clearly see that they've packed 2018 with a lot of content, there's most likely a reason for that -- to pave way for internal teams to work on (if not already) PS5 projects.

Looks at Decima engine, and even TLOU2 engine, I think we can make a good guess and say that they are engines built with PS5 in mind.
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
(will PSVR be compatible with PS5 or will a new headset be required even for backwards compatibility for example).
If I am a betting man, I would tell you there is no way Sony would allow PSVR1 to be compatible with PS5, except for backward compatibility with PS4 games.

PSVR as it stands is extremely primitive in terms of its tracking technology, and the recent minor hardware update really was as far as Sony was going to waste time on it. Let me remind you that the PS Move is 7 years old, and that it was first used for PS3. The light based tracking of the Move needed to be updated badly, and that meant the headset would also need to be changed. Sony might not release PSVR2 at the same time as PS5, they might stagger the release. But I don't see the current PSVR have a future beyond playing old PS4 games in two years.

I do want to emphasise however, that PSVR as it is is a remarkable piece of technology that squeeze as much power and capability out of old tech and extremely affordable components. And that Sony definitely made the right choice in pricing the headset. It was far from perfect, but it is very much still a very capable VR headset for the price you are paying.
 

John Bender

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,058
Why is it too early?
Imo, you can squeeze more 'power' out, if you wait another year. Hardware components will be cheaper one year later. I work for a hardware manufacturer and a 1 year difference is actually huge.
There's no reason that we can't wait another year for a next gen PS. So making the PS5 as powerful as possible in 2020 for $399, seeling it for a small loss, fully BC to the PS4, should be one of Sony's highest priorities.

edit
One example (I have our list here):
Manufacturing costs for a certain product that we released in 2016: $378
Manufacturing costs for the same product one year later: $284
So wait for another year and use the extra $94 for more/stronger hardware.
 
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Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992
Between the PS4 still selling exceedingly well, making sure their partners/internal teams have enough time with hardware specs to make games for the launch and getting components cheap enough, 2019 is out of the question.
 

Notaskwid

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,652
Osaka
I'd say holidays 2019 for PS5.
Even if the jump of the GPU is not massive, the jump on the cpu side should pretty much make u for it, and going forward I'm expecting a 3 year release cycle with a change in architecture every 6 years (PS5, 6)
2013 PS4
2016 PS4 Pro - very improved gpu, slightly improved ram and cpu
2019 PS5 - new gpu, new cpu, new ram
2022 PS5 pro - same as ps4 pro (?)

With retro compatibility going forward.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
But Sony doesn't pay retail prices, they pay much less than that, and they don't have to make a profit at launch. Also, they might use a cheaper memory solution like GDDR6, so that will further reduce the price. 12 TFLOPS in 2019 is not unrealistic imo.



I think there is zero chance that Sony will release an 8 TFLOPS console in 2019. And I also doubt that they will launch much later. They have a chance to keep their momentum by releasing the PS5 before the Xbox Two, and making the Xbox One X obsolete after only 2 years. A PS5 teaser at the end of 2018 would put quite a lot of pressure on Microsoft.

The Xbox One X also won't be able to compete with the PS5, it only has a weak Jaguar CPU, when the PS5 will likely have a Ryzen 2 CPU. But I agree about the price.

Sony does not pay the GPU like a normal customer. They pay a license to use AMD APU technology and some royalties on each console sold, they pay the component and they pay the cost to produce the console. They have some R&D cost because it is a custom job collaboration and for example the ID Buffer in PS4 Pro GPU is Sony own IP but it is far from R&D cost when they were producing there own technology...

The GPU power will probably be between 10Tflops/12Tflops and a zen based CPU with 16 Gb or if lucky 32 Gb of RAM.... They need to launch at 399 dollars...
 
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Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,866
Imo, you can squeeze more 'power' out, if you wait another year. Hardware components will be cheaper one year later. I work for a hardware manufacturer and a 1 year difference is actually huge.
There's no reason that we can't wait another year for a next gen PS. So making the PS5 as powerful as possible in 2020 for $399, seeling it for a small loss, fully BC to the PS4, should be one of Sony's highest priorities.

edit
One example (I have our list here):
Manufacturing costs for a certain product that we released in 2016: $378
Manufacturing costs for the same product one year later: $284
So wait for another year and use the extra $94 for more/stronger hardware.
One year only makes a difference if you're buying for the present, but these companies get locked into multi-year supply contracts, the price is negotiated prior to manufacturing. I don't think the price difference of 1 year in manufacturing costs is going to be much of a factor in a 5-8 year supply contract.
 

tzare

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Catalunya
I think launching a console in holiday period is a double edged sword. I'd rather launch it not so busy months, like Switch, capture the hardcore that will buy regardless of the moment and even price, and then allow some months to ramp up production and have stock to meet demand when holiday season arrives. So could launch mid 2020 imo
 

Redevil

Member
Oct 31, 2017
66
That's really impressive and I have little doubt that they could achieve the 79mil by March next year, considering God of War is launching around that time. Plus I have to agree with the others, considering how well the PS4 sells - no way the PS5 is going to launch before 2020.
 

spwolf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
133
Wario64 tweeted a summary of Black Friday deals. PS4 1 TB (!) will be available for $199 across the board. Yet without bundled games.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Wario64/status/923701878130487297?s=09

Pretty sure that SKU will be discounted for the rest of the holiday season as well ($249).

yeah, i was aware.. i was more thinking next year and after that... to maintain the approx similar level of sales.... €199 will be a really nice price for many kids and their parents to get into.
 

Lurker

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
285
Why can't we just leave the hybrid or portable idea to Nintendo? Nintendo with its 1st party games and smaller-ish (indie) games for the portable fans and Sony with their 1st part games, AAA multiplats and indie games on their powerful home console. If you desperately want a portable console, get the Switch. It's a nice little hybrid console. The PlayStation 4 right now is successful because it is what it is. A powerful home console that has the most games and last but not least great looking games. A hybrid PS5 would be the exact opposite of the PS4. Why removing everything that made the PS4 successful and what people liked?
The PS home console is exactly that. A home console. Portable system? Get a Switch.

Get a switch? Do you think I don't know the switch is a portable? I just said I hope the PS5 is like the Switch, not that I want just any portable system. What I said is that I am willing to forego graphics if that's the only difference between a home system and a portable one.
 

John Bender

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,058
Get a switch? Do you think I don't know the switch is a portable? I just said I hope the PS5 is like the Switch, not that I want just any portable system. What I said is that I am willing to forego graphics if that's the only difference between a home system and a portable one.
That's the issue. At least for you. People want a PS5 and not a Switch 2.But there's the VITA tho.
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,827
Yeah, seems like Sony is cutting the PS4 short, I'll be very surprised if Sony launches a 12TFLOP console in 2019. I obviously believe Matt though, so I'm not saying I doubt Sony's intent to launch PS5 in 2019, I'll just be surprised by the performance of the machine if that is indeed it's performance level.
2019 is not cutting it short, it's sticking to a plan that works for them.

They always had the 4/6/10 year plan (aside for delays), and it seems to still be in the cards imo.

4 years between a new gen and stopping prod on the old gen, 6 years actual lifespan for a new gen before the new one arrives, and 10 years total lifespan for a gen overall.
The one change this gen is called a "mid gen refresh", and 'oh surprise' it showed up exactly at the 3 year point.

Here, BC on PS5 will (would) make things much easier for them and the consumer, though encurring a potential loss in extra revenue for publishers who won't get to sell their game twice.
Otoh, people won't be afaraid of buying games close to a gen shift, knowing they will still work, so that might be a boost to compensate sales at least somewhat.
 

Liabe Brave

Professionally Enhanced
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,672
I agree that an I'm not sure about the XBOX's CPU being an issue, if the command processor for the API draw calls actually works as advertised?
It works as advertised but it's meaningless. The existing Xbox One has the same hardware, so the performance of current games already includes the benefits. There's not another tier waiting to be unlocked. So yes, games on both PS4 and Xbox One are and will continue to be CPU bound in many cases.
 

Omnistalgic

self-requested temp ban
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,973
NJ
I'd say holidays 2019 for PS5.
Even if the jump of the GPU is not massive, the jump on the cpu side should pretty much make u for it, and going forward I'm expecting a 3 year release cycle with a change in architecture every 6 years (PS5, 6)
2013 PS4
2016 PS4 Pro - very improved gpu, slightly improved ram and cpu
2019 PS5 - new gpu, new cpu, new ram
2022 PS5 pro - same as ps4 pro (?)

With retro compatibility going forward.
You know, this kinda makes a lot of sense...
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
Here, BC on PS5 will (would) make things much easier for them and the consumer, though encurring a potential loss in extra revenue for publishers who won't get to sell their game twice.
Why would it not be possible to sell Remastered games with a backwards compatible console? PC gaming still sell remastered games, and it had been backwards compatible forever.
 

John Wick

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
440
United Kingdom
Remember when everybody was so confident that console gaming was dying?

I don't mean that in a snarky, "Proved you wrong!" kinda way — I just genuinely mean, it's amazing how we came from a generation that would leave so many people with that impression... to this.

PS4's runaway success, the incredible early momentum of the Switch, even the XB1's numbers aren't dire — and they have an anticipated mid-gen upgrade around the corner.

Mobile wasn't the disruptor it was suspected to be (thankfully) and neither was VR (unfortunately). Things have changed about games to sustain the market and (like Jason Schreier says) maybe we are heading toward collapse but, for now, the console and PC markets are healthy.

Idk, it's encouraging.
I just don't find VR very appealing. I don't want to think about a future where your on your own in a room playing VR by yourself