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A Difficult Subject (The Jimquisition)

darksteel6

Banned
Mar 25, 2019
135
Not every game needs to appeal to every consumer . If a game is too hard don’t play it. Do people who want to play Forza ask for the game to add machine guns and flying mechanics ? No it appeals to racing fans .

Adding in easy mode is pointless in a game like this where the game experience is the challenge and being rewarded for overcoming it. The game doesn’t have incredible cinematic and cohesive story telling. Easy mode would deflate the quality of game.
Did you even watch the video? Jim said nothing like that, also your analogy makes no sense, asking a game to be a different genre is a whole different ballgame then wanting more accessibility options.


From's games are about way more then just difficulty, so no if they decided to put an easy mode in it would not "deflate" anything.
 

darksteel6

Banned
Mar 25, 2019
135
I don't see it as a waste of a fight because I'll always want to encourage more options.

I suppose the way you could see them as being discouraged is them just not thinking about the importance of an easy mode. Now you say that they have thought about it and have decided against it which is probably true but people will continue to bring it up every time they release a game because they still think it's important regardless if From will ever heed it. Also there is active discouragement from the fanbase, it's why these threads always get so big. Although the time that Miyazaki claimed he thought about an easy mode was a mistranslation, this article claims there was an uproar from fans afterwards and then the Metro quote claims that was a good thing. There is plenty discouragement.

I actually don't really disagree with your last point. It is a little unfair that From and their games keep getting dragged into these conversations; I'm not gonna claim that they're ableist because they don't have an easy mode. But they're mainstream games that are notorious for their difficulty. The conversation is gonna come up, it is inevitable. Maybe they shouldn't have had so much edgy lame ass "Prepare to die" taglines attached to their games if they didn't want people discussing the difficulty. And yes, we won't agree about an easy mode in these games being the same as accessibility and I certainly don't agree with the sanctity on the pure purposeful design argument because there are so many layers in between a creator's design and the way it's interacted with. Even if the accessibility conversation is unfair to From games, it constantly happening will show how important it is to many people and other developers will take note, even if From never will.
It's not From's faults that their games have this stupid marketing attached to them, that's purely on Namco-Bandai, they pushed that "Prepare to Die" nonsense.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,978
I don't see it as a waste of a fight because I'll always want to encourage more options.

I suppose the way you could see them as being discouraged is them just not thinking about the importance of an easy mode. Now you say that they have thought about it and have decided against it which is probably true but people will continue to bring it up every time they release a game because they still think it's important regardless if From will ever heed it. Also there is active discouragement from the fanbase, it's why these threads always get so big. Although the time that Miyazaki claimed he thought about an easy mode was a mistranslation, this article claims there was an uproar from fans afterwards and then the Metro quote claims that was a good thing. There is plenty discouragement.

I actually don't really disagree with your last point. It is a little unfair that From and their games keep getting dragged into these conversations; I'm not gonna claim that they're ableist because they don't have an easy mode. But they're mainstream games that are notorious for their difficulty. The conversation is gonna come up, it is inevitable. Maybe they shouldn't have had so much edgy lame ass "Prepare to die" taglines attached to their games if they didn't want people discussing the difficulty. And yes, we won't agree about an easy mode in these games being the same as accessibility and I certainly don't agree with the sanctity on the pure purposeful design argument because there are so many layers in between a creator's design and the way it's interacted with. Even if the accessibility conversation is unfair to From games, it constantly happening will show how important it is to many people and other developers will take note, even if From never will.
The importance of an easy mode to the developer is entirely at their discretion, not the discretion of the consumer or their feedback. That's the wall I see this hitting. The general importance of an easy mode as a universal constant is a concept that you seem to accept as existing while others, myself included, deny. It's a very useful and versatile tool, but not always the right one depending on what you're trying to do. As for the fan-base, I doubt there is any real influence there, much like the counter-converation.

As for the marketing. I can't say I agree. That was as good a signpost as you'll ever have about what you're getting into. And for this type of game that's wholly appropriate if not logically mandatory. The feeling of a bit of edge is always preferable to an uninformed customer who mistakes what your product is about and leaves feeling like their money was stolen.
 

darksteel6

Banned
Mar 25, 2019
135
Cory Barlog wants God of War to be accessible and for everyone to be able to experience the story, and we're all on board with that.

Miyazaki wants the game to be the same for everyone regardless of ability and to have the same bar that must be reached to pass its tests, and we have to respect that too.

The "this game should be made for me too" attitude is stepping dangerously close to entitlement at this point.
Nah it's the elitist gatekeepers that are the entitled ones, thinking games should only be made for them and nobody else.
 

console lover

Member
Feb 19, 2018
6,039
When we have so many games with difficulty design choices to pull from like Halo, Cuphead, Celeste and even REmake 2 its kinda silly that every thread about sekiro asks this question.

Have wider parry windows, reduce amount of boss phases, have different enemy placement/attacks, give more healing items but keep damage the same. Even if you only agree with one of those examples it really shouldnt be rocket science.

Unless you want like God Hand dynamic difficulty instead?
Seriously this, it's honestly not THAT hard. Even something as simple as long(er) parry window. My friend went from platinum on bloodborne to god of war and he felt the parry windows in comparison were HUGE. Even just that makes a big difference
 

MrS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,213
Nah it's the elitist gatekeepers that are the entitled ones, thinking games should only be made for them and nobody else.
You'll play what they make or you won't play and you'll move on. How simple is that? We've been getting Souls games for 10 years and they haven't put an easy mode in yet. It's pretty clear that From has no intention of making their games easier. People enjoy the games for what they are. If you don't like it, just keep it moving. There's no need to badmouth people who enjoy the games. It's out of line, actually.
 

SuperFakerBros

Self-requested temporary ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,747
Not every game needs to appeal to every consumer . If a game is too hard don’t play it. Do people who want to play Forza ask for the game to add machine guns and flying mechanics ? No it appeals to racing fans .

Adding in easy mode is pointless in a game like this where the game experience is the challenge and being rewarded for overcoming it. The game doesn’t have incredible cinematic and cohesive story telling. Easy mode would deflate the quality of game.
Of course not but there's a world of difference in wanting a game to be tweaked and asking for a completely different game but I'm sure you knew that

Well, no, because difficulty is subjective and someone's easy mode could be someone else's hard mode and vice versa. Granted, the game doesn't necessarily need an easy mode as having a set difficulty is fine, even if that set difficulty is relatively high compared to other games. But asking for one isn't exactly ridiculous or going against the point of the game
 

TheMango55

Member
Nov 1, 2017
4,108
I'm glad Jim upgraded his commentocracy outfit with the fancy vest. Before he just had the purple shirt which was clearly a modern dress shirt.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,978
But how does an easy mode's existence make the default difficulty harder? Celeste is a hard game that can be made easy. Didn't make me feel any less proud when I beat it unaltered.
Celeste is not a game that is hard. It's a game that can be hard if you chose to play it in that manner. It was made in such a way as to not be hard for people who might not like hard games or may not be able to play what would conventionally be considered hard games. Sekiro is just hard on the other hand.

So, question still applies: "It's wrong to think it's okay to make hard games for people who like hard games?"
 

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,783
What would be a well implemented easy mode for Sekiro to the people that want it?
An easy mode could literally be having enemies do 50% less damage and nothing else. The first half of the game, before you realize what is the critical path and what isn't, can lead to headaches as you wander into areas you shouldn't or into the next boss woefully under health beaded because you decided to come back to that mini boss later, etc. And with every new enemy and boss in a new zone designed to take a consistent amount of % health per hit, you never feel stronger. Going from full to dead in 1.7 seconds sucks. Less damage still prioritizes the parry mechanics because regular attacks on anything other than trash is still tuned well. Hell, you could probably leave posture damage alone too. An easy mode can just be about actually having an option of running away and healing rather than falling dead immediately per grab or missed parry
 
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chrisypoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,867
Easily one of Jim's best videos. If you're bothered about how people choose to enjoy a single player video game, then you may want to get your self some therapy. Let people have fun the way they wish to.
 

chrisypoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,867
Not every game needs to appeal to every consumer . If a game is too hard don’t play it. Do people who want to play Forza ask for the game to add machine guns and flying mechanics ? No it appeals to racing fans .

Adding in easy mode is pointless in a game like this where the game experience is the challenge and being rewarded for overcoming it. The game doesn’t have incredible cinematic and cohesive story telling. Easy mode would deflate the quality of game.
Forza has multiple tweakable accessibility options for increased and decreased difficulty, and yes, it's still the best racing game out there right now. Seems an odd IP to reference for the point you're making, considering its design philosophy directly acknowledges and embraces the importance of accessibility. Noone wants Sekiro to have a mini gun and plate armor, there's just some folks of the opinion, that I share, that the inclusion of an easy mode wouldn't immediately make the game any worse.
 

Tpallidum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
966
Controversial opinion: people that don't like easy modes shouldn't play easy modes.

Sekiro can have a indestructible god mode with one hit kills on literally every enemy for all I care and it would not detract ANYTHING from MY experience with the game because I wouldn't use that mode.

That's not to say it NEEDS to have an easy mode, but I'm 100% all for it. It would be nice for people that want it. Contrary to popular belief, there's more to these games than just difficulty.

The video's starfox bit was spot on.
 

tryagainlater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
937
The importance of an easy mode to the developer is entirely at their discretion, not the discretion of the consumer or their feedback. That's the wall I see this hitting. The general importance of an easy mode as a universal constant is a concept that you seem to accept as existing while others, myself included, deny. It's a very useful and versatile tool, but not always the right one depending on what you're trying to do. As for the fan-base, I doubt there is any real influence there, much like the counter-converation.

As for the marketing. I can't say I agree. That was as good a signpost as you'll ever have about what you're getting into. And for this type of game that's wholly appropriate if not logically mandatory. The feeling of a bit of edge is always preferable to an uninformed customer who mistakes what your product is about and leaves feeling like their money was stolen.
I agree that it's on the discretion of the developer. But as I've said, those of us who thinks it's important want to keep encouraging it so it's gets seen by someone. I think as much accessibility options should be in games as possible and I include easy mode or anything that makes a game easier under the accessibility window. I think it would be useful for the Souls games and Bloodborne because those games have value outside of their difficulty. The difficulty is additive to the experience as I've mentioned before but there's plenty to appreciate in those games outside of it and I think its fans undermine the series value and the other things it does right. And you can hardly say there's no influence from the fanbase; you're the one that said the feedback they listen to is monetary. We are kinda arguing in circles now though.

Also, I'm sorry but the prepare to die stuff is just so lame. Apparently Namco Bandai is more responsible for that as someone mentioned above. But it's so lame. You're right that it's nice that it is truthful in its marketing but god damn, the special edition was called the Prepare to Die edition. This is pretty anecdotal to my own experience and not really related to accessibility but all that prepare to die stuff and the way the fanbase presented the game as this exclusive club for those who beat the game is why it took me so many years to find the series. I just thought it would be a boring slog but when I finally played Dark Souls 1 in 2014, I saw how wonderful the art and level design and lore was and sure, I enjoyed the combat but it's not what kept me going in the game. I can't blame the entire fanbase for that though; a quick glance at youtube shows there's plenty of people talking about the lore. But I do think there's plenty of people who can enjoy that stuff on a less punishing mode and I want to share games with everyone. Any of the exclusive club for people who've beaten the game is just stupid. I'm not accusing you on doing that but there's plenty of it within the fanbase.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,978
I agree that it's on the discretion of the developer. But as I've said, those of us who thinks it's important want to keep encouraging it so it's gets seen by someone. I think as much accessibility options should be in games as possible and I include easy mode or anything that makes a game easier under the accessibility window. I think it would be useful for the Souls games and Bloodborne because those games have value outside of their difficulty. The difficulty is additive to the experience as I've mentioned before but there's plenty to appreciate in those games outside of it and I think its fans undermine the series value and the other things it does right. And you can hardly say there's no influence from the fanbase; you're the one that said the feedback they listen to is monetary. We are kinda arguing in circles now though.

Also, I'm sorry but the prepare to die stuff is just so lame. Apparently Namco Bandai is more responsible for that as someone mentioned above. But it's so lame. You're right that it's nice that it is truthful in its marketing but god damn, the special edition was called the Prepare to Die edition. This is pretty anecdotal to my own experience and not really related to accessibility but all that prepare to die stuff and the way the fanbase presented the game as this exclusive club for those who beat the game is why it took me so many years to find the series. I just thought it would be a boring slog but when I finally played Dark Souls 1 in 2014, I saw how wonderful the art and level design and lore was and sure, I enjoyed the combat but it's not what kept me going in the game. I can't blame the entire fanbase for that though; a quick glance at youtube shows there's plenty of people talking about the lore. But I do think there's plenty of people who can enjoy that stuff on a less punishing mode and I want to share games with everyone. Any of the exclusive club for people who've beaten the game is just stupid. I'm not accusing you on doing that but there's plenty of it within the fanbase.
There is a difference between change because the well dried up and a perpetual argument online. This debate isn't going to dry that well any time soon either, not before the formula goes stale most likely. Saying this conversation is like yelling at a hole in the ground isn't the same as saying they can't be influenced. I think they do take feedback. I also think they take the parts they want for their purposes and largely leave the rest.

As far as the advertising lameness, you know, that's just, like, your opinion man.

I got on Demon's souls by word of mouth and was in regardless after that. Maybe that created a difference in perception.
 

Lyng

Writer at Joypad.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,643
These are your opinions. These are not facts. People disagree with you. That's why they level these criticisms.

Trying to shut them up isn't an argument. It's quite the opposite!
Nobody is shutting people up. Feel free to elaborate where the difficulty in a From game is flawed.
 

tryagainlater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
937
There is a difference between change because the well dried up and a perpetual argument online. This debate isn't going to dry that well any time soon either, not before the formula goes stale most likely. Saying this conversation is like yelling at a hole in the ground isn't the same as saying they can't be influenced. I think they do take feedback. I also think they take the parts they want for their purposes and largely leave the rest.

As far as the advertising lameness, you know, that's just, like, your opinion man.

I got on Demon's souls by word of mouth and was in regardless after that. Maybe that created a difference in perception.
Look man, if yelling into the void wasn't a fun past time, resetEra wouldn't exist :P
 

sabrina

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,029
newport beach, CA
because it's popular, you are entitled to being catered to.
lol no

lmao what

game dev gets popular for making hard games without an easy mode. That popularity comes from people specifically seeking out and enjoying the difficulty. But oops they hit a magical threshold and now they have to do something besides what made them popular?

false entitlement is a bane in the age of luxury entertainment
 

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,397
From games are so brilliant. I just wanted to say that. There are other games that people think are brilliant that I find issues with which make it hard for me to play them. Like basically every fighting game. I love fighting games. And watching them. But I basically feel like I can’t play em. But I’m ok with that. Let it be for those dedicated to learning them. There are more accessible ones out there I’m sure. Just as there are more accessible adventure games than from games.
 

naff

Member
Oct 29, 2017
49
lol no

lmao what

game dev gets popular for making hard games without an easy mode. That popularity comes from people specifically seeking out and enjoying the difficulty. But oops they hit a magical threshold and now they have to do something besides what made them popular?

false entitlement is a bane in the age of luxury entertainment
yes, as a popular game dev Miyazaki now has a social responsibility to the people. there must be no more neets crying at home, their honour destroyed because they cannot live the way of the samurai as so harshly laid out by Sekiro.
 

Tpallidum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
966
Not every game needs to appeal to every consumer . If a game is too hard don’t play it. Do people who want to play Forza ask for the game to add machine guns and flying mechanics ? No it appeals to racing fans .

Adding in easy mode is pointless in a game like this where the game experience is the challenge and being rewarded for overcoming it. The game doesn’t have incredible cinematic and cohesive story telling. Easy mode would deflate the quality of game.
That's selling these games real short, man. Contrary to popular belief there's more to them than just difficulty. There's plenty to enjoy even with a watered down experience.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,801
Las Vegas
I'll get total hate for this but.

Not every game has to be for every player.
I know that we're accustomed to games being a capitalist venture that is trying to reach wide audiences, but it's still a creative industry and if the creative team decides "this is how i want my product to be"... so be it.

Gamers feel entitled to enjoy every single product in any way they want because they're accustomed to feeling like everyone is trying to cater to them.

I'm not saying one should "get good" or something, i just think that (and this argument puts physical accessibility issues aside, because i feel that is a separate, very important subject) not all games need to be for all gamers and folks should feel at peace with that idea. Fromsoft owes their recent success to the creative vision and design decisions of the souls team (as much as I, being an old fromsoft fan dislike that mentality) not in spite of it.

tl;dr - Your mindset as a capitalist consumer has lead to the argument that all games need to be targeted at all audiences and skill levels. Even regular "anti capitalist" commentators cannot see past this consumer mindset.
Less than 11% of people have seen Sekiro's most common ending. (PSN Trophies).

At that respect, Sekiro really isn't designed for anyone.
 

Tpallidum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
966
The "this game should be made for me too" feels almost entirely like a Red Herring that's been imagined up by people missing the point. It's creating a narrative of hardline demand that... Kind of doesn't exist.

The actual argument that pro-accessibility folks like myself are trying to make is "developers should consider this more and we would argue that it won't harm anything, not even their intention, by implementing more options within their games."

It's not "SEKIRO NEEDS AN EASY MODE RIGHT NOW AND THE DEVELOPER HAS COMMITTED A BIGOTED ACTION BY NOT CONSIDERING OR IMPLEMENTING IT."

It's more like "I see what the developer went for here but maybe next time we might be able to onboard more folks by giving them more options to scale it to their level of play."

Is the difference apparent by that example? People are feeling like the former is what's being said when it's really the latter. If the difference isn't apparent, then I think that's where the tension of the ongoing discussion is coming from.

When a game that carries infamy for its difficulty releases, it is always a good time to bring up the push. It's not trying to "fix" a game that's already out there, it's just trying to prop a current game up as an example that might be improved next go around. It's not an entitlement thing, really, it's just an urge (and often a passionate one) that is suggesting that developers give players options to alter the parameters of gameplay design to suit a larger (but not necessarily all-encompassing) audience.

If we need games as examples that were both very challenging by their intended design but also provided alterations to their design parameters that increased accessibility, look at Celeste and Devil May Cry 5.
Absolutely this. It's almost as if people didn't watch the video. It's not entitlement because we aren't demanding. No rational person is saying it HAS TO have an easy mode. We're saying it'd be nice to include it. It wouldn't hurt anyone to include it. It's not about helping everybody because some people will never like these games no matter what. But if including it can help a couple more people get into them with little or no compromise to the core game then we don't see why not. Most of us already into these games would never use it. This isn't for us. This is for others to enjoy.

Video says as much and I agree with every point.
 

Seeya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,084
Absolutely this. It's almost as if people didn't watch the video. It's not entitlement because we aren't demanding. No rational person is saying it HAS TO have an easy mode. We're saying it'd be nice to include it. It wouldn't hurt anyone to include it. It's not about helping everybody because some people will never like these games no matter what. But if including it can help a couple more people get into them with little or no compromise to the core game then we don't see why not. Most of us already into these games would never use it. This isn't for us. This is for others to enjoy.

Video says as much and I agree with every point.
Critique is fine and I agree that it is a discussion worth having, but the distinction between the two becomes awfully blurry in practice. In think that’s where the dialogue gets muddled.

Less than 11% of people have seen Sekiro's most common ending. (PSN Trophies).

At that respect, Sekiro really isn't designed for anyone.
Games have very low overall completion rates, but consumers aren’t buying games to finish them, they’re buying them for what is being sold. Designing games around boosting completion rates is a bad road and frankly a dead end in appealing to the people who are buying your games to begin with; perception is incredibly important in securing interest.

And the game only came out 2-3 weeks ago.
 
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Seeya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,084
Did you even watch the video? Jim said nothing like that, also your analogy makes no sense, asking a game to be a different genre is a whole different ballgame then wanting more accessibility options.


From's games are about way more then just difficulty, so no if they decided to put an easy mode in it would not "deflate" anything.
In what way are they about more than difficulty without citing any component that is interchangeable to any other games? The difficulty (through being relatively unforgiving) is their signature, along with the more measured pace to combat.

Easily one of Jim's best videos. If you're bothered about how people choose to enjoy a single player video game, then you may want to get your self some therapy. Let people have fun the way they wish to.
See I’m fine with that as long as it doesn’t infect the core development space of a game. The problem is that overtime it’s very hard to keep those things separate.

When Demon Souls came out it struck such a cord because it disregarded all of the conventional wisdom that decades of game design ‘best practice’ homogenization has said was the only way to do things. It specifically did things that the culture at the time said you should not do.

If From games get an easier difficulty mode then it should come closer to release with a completely different group of devs. Otherwise the ‘carter for everyone’ approach will start to infect the core design principles over time, and that’s just not a good thing for maintaining the ethos of their games.
 
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Oct 29, 2017
3,751
There is nothing inherently wrong with having a single difficulty that skews hard. It allows the developer to finetune the game towards offering one, incredibly polished experience that evokes a specific set of feelings.

Conversely, there's nothing wrong with offering multiple difficulty options that allow the player to tailor the experience to how they want to play. While this is done poorly more often than not, it can be a fantastic way to offer replay value and offer new challenges to those who have experienced the game before on lower difficulties; and it can be a great way to make your game more open to a wider range of players...

... neither approach is invalid. But things like the Super Guide/Assist Mode in Nintendo's games, or games like Celeste, are brilliant ways to offer that approachabliity, while also allowing the developers to create one finely crafted experience that reflects the exact balance and gameplay that they want to make.

And this can even allow games to be made more difficult, ironically enough! Take Nintendo's own games for example. For years, their designers felt constrained by the need to make their games with a lower bound of difficulty... until they came up with the Super Guide! Now they could feel free to make more challenging games, without the fear that their players wouldn't have the skill to complete the game! It's literally the best of both worlds! (And you only need look at NSMB DS against NSMB Wii to see just how profound a difference Super Guide/Assist Mode makes to the overall design of a game... in the exact opposite way that its detractors claimed!)

Celeste is not a game that is hard. It's a game that can be hard if you chose to play it in that manner. It was made in such a way as to not be hard for people who might not like hard games or may not be able to play what would conventionally be considered hard games. Sekiro is just hard on the other hand.

So, question still applies: "It's wrong to think it's okay to make hard games for people who like hard games?"
Celeste was purposely designed to be hard. It was never designed around the Assist Mode at all; that was added after the fact. Hell, the developer even actively went out of their way to encourage people to play the game without it and only use it if they had to.
 

BaconLazers

Member
Nov 6, 2017
49
I don't see why people have an issue with it. Personally I don't care if it has one or not. Come to think of it. I belive people have an issue with an easy mode because they don't like the idea that somone got as far as them in a game but it was easy while they worked to hard to get the far.
 

Brock Reiher

Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,282
Maybe its because I thought Sekiro was easy but I think this whole difficulty conversation is like... fake. Like it's only an issue for people who spend too much time talking about video games, and even then only amongst a certain subset of people who spend too much time talking about videogames.
 

Pillock

User Requested Ban
Banned
Dec 29, 2017
1,341
What I don't understand are the 'gamers' that think an easy mode would somehow ruin there enjoyment.

For what it's worth I don't think every game should have an easy mode and devs should be free to make the games the want. But if an easy mode was to be added why would it be a problem.

Some people seem to think that it would somehow invalidate there achievement, but what they forget is nobody other than them cares about what setting they finished a game on.
 

SilentRob

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,782
Great video by Jim. I couldn’t agree more. If From Soft doesn’t want to add an easy mode they should be allowed not too. It’s their design.
At the same time if they decide to do one that’s perfectly fine too.
Very few people are arguing that they shouldn't be "allowed" to. People are criticizing them for not doing it, because they think it makes for a worse game. Nobody makes this argument if someone argues, for example, that Halo 5 "should" have local 4-player-coop. That's not the game 343 wanted to make, it's clearly the artists intent to instead go for stronger visuals with the engine on their disposal. Yet, nobody decries fans who criticize 343 for not including Local Coop, of course not. That would be silly. Just because something is the artist's intent (which is a dubious notion already when we talk about dozens, hundreds of people working together, producting a marketable product with publisher oversight, because it's impossible for us to know what really is any singular artist's intent, what's marketablity, what's a publisher's decision, etc. etc.) doesn't make it immune to criticism and doesn't make calls for it to be different unappreciative of art.

What I don't understand are the 'gamers' that think an easy mode would somehow ruin there enjoyment.

For what it's worth I don't think every game should have an easy mode and devs should be free to make the games the want. But if an easy mode was to be added why would it be a problem.

Some people seem to think that it would somehow invalidate there achievement, but what they forget is nobody other than them cares about what setting they finished a game on.
It's an especially silly notion I feel because ALL the Soulsborne Games already have easy modes with the Summoning System. If you wanted to, you could beat almost the entire game without doing anything, just by stepping back and letting your Summons deal with the enemies. And still, these games are lauded for their approach to dificulty and how uncompromising they are. I have never met a person who didn't feel a sense of achievement after defeating a hard Boss in a Soulsborne games because they technically had the opportunity to summon help. We KNOW it doesn't devalue the games. Otherwise, you'd have to argue that every single Miyazaki game is guilty of exactly that

What would be a well implemented easy mode for Sekiro to the people that want it?
I feel like Items or Characters that allow you to stock up a dozen or maybe even limitless Resurrections if you wanted to would be a good, world-related way to make the game easier akin to the summonings in the Soulsborne games. You would still have to defeat the enemies who are just as strong as before and you'd have the opportunity to get better and better over time and feel a real sense of progression.
 
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Coi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
912
I'm ok with easy mode. I'll not use it but I really can't understand any reason to not have one.
Last night I killed Genishiro maybe for 10 times now and I still can't justify the HUGE difficulty wall that he is. It's ridiculously hard for mid game boss mostly because you don't learn anything for beating him besides hard learning the moveset and kill him like a robot, not in a natural and enjoyable way.
 

Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,800
Yeah, i don't understand why people care. You want to play a difficult game, play a game in difficult or play one designed to be difficult. If you want to play an easy game, pick an easy game or the easy mode of another.

If the game doesn't offer you the difficulty you want, don't play the game. If the game has the difficulty you want, why do you care if it also has an difficulty option that doesn't interest you ? Just don't pick the option that doesn't interest you. That's it.

One could argue that adding difficulty options would recquire some development time that could have been used somewhere else. Wich is a valid argument. But even then, it's a decision on the devs. We, players, should have nothing to say on the matter.


More choice is usually better. But if a dev doesn't want said choice, it's perfectly fine as well.

Just stop bickering about something as trivial as this.
 

FallenHeroX1

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,290
“This establishments chicken nuggets are too hot, we need a cold option.” -X
“Cold chicken nuggets are not served here, please go to a different establishment that better suits your needs.” -Y
“You are just gatekeeping the cold chicken nuggets. Such a shame.” -X
“Look if they wanted to sell cold chicken nuggets they would, but they don’t.”-Y
“I took my hot chicken nuggets home, put them in the freezer and enjoyed them just fine.” -Z
“See I told you they should have a cold chicken nuggets option!”-X

I mean when we apply these arguments to any other object, it starts to sound a bit silly doesn’t it? Almost like children bickering and neither side will ever come to a solution because at the end of the day, the people in charge are the ones who have the final say. It honestly just feels like feature begging at this point. I’m starting to wonder where the productivity in these arguments are. Maybe you would enjoy Sekiro more of it had an easy option, maybe someone else would enjoy Bloodborne if it were on their platform of choice. Are these conversations more productive than port begging? Why is one allowed but the other not?
It’s just running in circles. It doesn’t matter if we are all okay with Sekiro having an easy mode if From doesn’t want to implement it. How are those who think Sekiro would be devalued by having an easy mode any different from those who think Bloodborne would be devalued by being on an Xbox? Both easy mode and multi platform would make both more “accessible”, would it not?

It feels like we are going in circles on this board, and maybe the moderators need to take a look into whether or not anything productive will come from this constant retread of arguments.
 

ArtVandelay

User requested permanent ban
Banned
May 29, 2018
2,309
Wouldn’t it just be easier to learn the game than get a leg-up at the start with an ‘ez mode’? The game is a lot easier than the Souls games once you learn it’s core concepts . . .
It's not. I completely understand the concept. I know how the game works. I have finished every Souls game several times. NG+++. Sekiro is still harder. There's simply less room for error.
 

faced

Member
Dec 17, 2017
137
I like what Mario Odyssey did - If you want to turn on Assist mode for a single moon or whatever go ahead. You can still die but it's pretty hard to.

I actually got the final level's moon on Assist mode (only time I used it the entire game) because I would just never beat that level without it. The game doesn't punish you for it or say "You used Assist Mode it doesn't count". At the same time I would never want to play the rest of the game that way because I felt like the challenge level was just right for the majority of the game and didn't want to make it easier.

Similarly I can't be the only one who gets to Yakuza endgame and sees how much HP enemies have and just sets it to Easy

Actually in general Souls games have something like that with being able to summon Coop helpers for bosses. I haven't played Sekiro but it might be more obvious in that because it's fully singleplayer.
 

ara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,641
Similarly I can't be the only one who gets to Yakuza endgame and sees how much HP enemies have and just sets it to Easy
Man, I just start those games on easy lol. I love Yakuza but that's mostly despite the combat, not because of it.

I hate it when games offer you ways to make it easier or even give you cheat codes to mess around with and then punish you for actually using them. The most annoying one in recent years has definitely been RDR2. They give you fun cheats to play around with... But you can't save your game if you used them. Like... Seriously?
 

janoGX

Member
Nov 29, 2017
1,811
Chile
You are the first person I've heard say this. So I'm going to take it as a matter of opinion and not demonstrably true.
I'm gonna repeat the sentiment: Sekiro is the easiest FROM game from the bunch (counting all SoulsBorneKiro) people who struggle parrying in Sekiro would suffer even worse in Bloodborne. Sekiro is spam L1, when red symbol appears jump, and then attack. It has a training mode to learn the basics, it has an incredible number of tutorial text to the point of being annoying. The accessibility is there, it's just that people don't want to approach it.

No one is actually gatekeeping, if FROM wants to add difficulty modes, it shouldn't be a problem if they want to.

But I do have a problem with people forcing something from a developer. And I underlined and bolded that, because this is the 5-6th thread on the same subject, and this is the 6th game of the same nature, so we have to count back every single thread made on the same way. Forcing something might lead to a bad product, or something half-assed.

Same side, the ones who enjoy the difficulty shouldn't force a dev from not adding difficulties if they want to.

I still believe this is a problem with FOMO, and some people have to accept that some games aren't made for them. Like clothes, you can't get everything fit you, and sometimes you have to fix it yourself (modding).
 
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plagiarize

To its ports I have been
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,715
Cape Cod, MA
I'm gonna repeat the sentiment: Sekiro is the easiest FROM game from the bunch (counting all SoulsBorneKiro) people who struggle parrying in Sekiro would suffer even worse in Bloodborne. Sekiro is spam L1, when red symbol appears jump, and then attack. It has a training mode to learn the basics, it has an incredible number of tutorial text to the point of being annoying. The accessibility is there, it's just that people don't want to approach it.

No one is actually gatekeeping, if FROM wants to add difficulty modes, it shouldn't be a problem if they want to.

But I do have a problem with people forcing something from a developer. And I underlined and bolded that, because this is the 5-6th thread on the same subject, and this is the 6th game of the same nature, so we have to count back every single thread made on the same way. Forcing something might lead to a bad product, or something half-assed.

Same side, the ones who enjoy the difficulty shouldn't force a dev from not adding difficulties if they want to.
Who or what is forcing anything on From Software?

Because I don't see anyone doing that.
 

janoGX

Member
Nov 29, 2017
1,811
Chile
Adding here something else about the thread:

- Cuphead actually makes you play the game on Normal if you want the ending, idk if it changed after I finished it but that's how I played it.
- Celeste's accessibility mode is not actually an 'accessibility mode', might sound a hot-take but take it as you will.

Who or what is forcing anything on From Software?

Because I don't see anyone doing that.
There are 5-6 threads on the same argument, many calling out FROM specifically over the same issue. There are publications doing the same. That actually is forcing someone. "FROM needs to respect their players" when the dev actually does.

If that's not forcing...
 

plagiarize

To its ports I have been
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,715
Cape Cod, MA
There are 5-6 threads in the same argument, many calling out FROM specifically over the same issue. There are publications doing the same. That actually is forcing someone. "FROM needs to respect their players" when the dev actually does.

If that's not forcing...
It's not.

If it *was* we'd have seen half assed difficulty modes in their games years ago.