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Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,467
Houston, TX
A common complaint regarding Smash Ultimate's roster is the lack of black/brown characters in its roster, as brought up in this thread. However, as I've noted in that very same thread, part of the problem with the roster is that (outside of Incineroar, who filled the obligatory Pokémon slot) the roster was finalized as of December 2015. And as we found out with Sakurai's statement about the Rex Mii Costume, Sakurai wasn't aware of most new games announced after the project plan (Odyssey seems to be the only exception, but even the Odyssey content in Smash could have been done on short notice). With this thread, I'd like to highlight some of Nintendo's improvements in representation since December 2015, some of the setbacks, & what it could mean for Smash going forward.


BLACK/BROWN REPRESENTATION IN NINTENDO GAMES FROM 2016 ONWARDS
Switch_ARMS_characterart_06.png
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While we did have characters like Elma (though she could be debated given.....certain elements of Xenoblade X's story) & Rodin (third party, yes, but the Bayonetta IP is basically Nintendo's adopted child at this point) prior to 2016, we did start to see a noticeable uptick in representation until 2017. This was when we started to see more prominent characters in recent Nintendo games bring black characters to the forefront. With Ever Oasis, Tethu (or Tethi if you went with the female variant) is often represented as dark in skin tone by default. ARMS brought us Twintelle & Misango (I spoke with many on the topic of Misango, & they believe he should be counted, but feel free to respond if you feel differently), both of whom I discussed in more detail in my recent ARMS character analysis thread. Breath of the Wild introduced Urbosa, one of the four Champions representing the Gerudo people. And Splatoon 2 not only brought us Marina, but also the main Inkling & Octoling girls having darker skin by default. This even extended to the Splatoon 2 Inkling Girl's Amiibo (this presents a problem for the Octoling Girl, which I'll get to later).
As for Pokémon Sun & Moon, both games (as well as the Ultra versions) brought us a ton of black/brown representation. This includes the likes of Ilima, Kiawe, Professor Kukui, Professor Burnet, Hala, Mallow, Samson Oak, & Olivia. And while one could argue that this is more of Game Freak & The Pokémon Company than Nintendo, I'll still give them a mention here.
Also, by the same virtue of Pokémon, Cygames brought forward quite a bit of black/brown representation for Dragalia Lost. Special thanks to Kanik & Parshias for bringing this to my attention as well as providing me with the images seen below.
At least in the case of ARMS, BotW, & Splatoon 2, their moves in terms of black/brown representation were met with much praise (more so Twintelle in the case of ARMS since Misango came out later), especially with regards to Twintelle & Marina. Twintelle went on to become one of the most popular ARMS characters in the West, while Marina became the most popular member of Off the Hook (but to be fair to Pearl, she gained more fans after the Octo Expansion). Sun & Moon also received praise for its representation, more so with regards to Olivia. As for Ever Oasis, it unfortunately didn't get much attention due to it being a new IP releasing on the 3DS after the Switch hype was in full swing, but I've heard good things about the game (I'd play it if my 3DS didn't get fucked up six ways to Sunday). These are all marked improvements for Nintendo on this front. However, not everything has been smooth sailing in terms of black/brown representation in their games.

SETBACKS FOR BLACK/BROWN REPRESENTATION IN NINTENDO GAMES AFTER DECEMBER 2015
Nintendo has seen progress on this front, but I of course have to address various problems that they've had recently. The most recent (& most glaring) issue being the use of racist stereotypes in certain selections regarding Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's Spirits, which has been discussed further in this thread. The main three that are an issue right now are Diddy Kong as Dee Jay (as shown above), Donkey Kong as Mr. Sandman, & Villager (the black Villager with a purple shirt) as Tac. While sure, the Villager alt wasn't dark-skinned until after E3 & Donkey Kong being the secret boss of Punch-Out Wii was likely the intended reference, I can't deny that they both look bad. As for Diddy Kong as Dee Jay, there really isn't much of an excuse there. All of these should be corrected as soon as possible. But sadly, I fear that it may not happen given that the thread's topic went under the radar. Another problem is mainly with how the Octoling Girl's Amiibo was handled, which shows her as much paler than her renders. Normally this could have been chalked up as an error with manufacturing, but the Splatoon 2 Inkling Girl's Amiibo was seen to be darker than her official render, thus not leaving Nintendo with much of an excuse here. It's a shame, especially considering how well Splatoon 2 is doing with black/brown representation otherwise.

UPDATE
I did some digging on the Octoling situation. As it turns out, the Octoling Girl is actually black in-game, so the white-washing of the Amiibo was a fuck-up on the manufacturer's part.

DtHQtHVXgAAQwwQ.jpg


As an aside, Wario did white-wash the Splatoon 2 Inkling Girl in his drawing in WarioWare Gold, which is a bit problematic all things considered.

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This isn't the first time the Splatoon 2 Inkling Girl was white-washed, as her Figma has the same problem.

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However, in the case of the Figma, it's just a variant of the Splatoon 1 Inkling Girl's Figma (this is made clear when you look at her eyes, which have the same color as the Splatoon 1 Inkling Girl), so it was likely made with spare Splatoon 1 Inkling Girl parts. As such, while I don't like the situation, I can kinda understand why this happened.

And in a recent turn of events, Marina's Sanrio plushie depicts her as much paler than she actually is in-game.


UPDATE 2
Well, looks like Nintendo white-washed Agents 4 & 8 compared to their default designs.


WHAT THIS MEANS FOR NINTENDO GOING FORWARD
At their current trajectory, Nintendo should hopefully have more representation with regards to black/brown characters in their games going forward. In fact, we're seeing more progress on this front with the introduction of Claude as one of the three Lords in Fire Emblem: Three Houses. Unfortunately, beyond Tethu, the main Splatoon 2 Inkling Girl, & the main Octoling Girl, there still exists the underlying problem that most of the new black/brown characters that we've gotten in recent years aren't main characters. And in the case of Urbosa, she likely won't be a recurring character unless we revisit that specific Hyrule from BotW in future Zelda games. This ties back to Primethius' thread regarding black/brown representation in Smash being a problem in that without more representation being brought forward for main characters, we may not see that much of a change in the next Smash game. At best, we could see Twintelle be added in the next Smash game, but I don't see that happening without Spring Man being promoted from Assist Trophy to playable in the next game alongside her (hence why I see Twintelle as unlikely for Smash Ultimate DLC). Though to Twintelle's credit, I could easily see her take up the role of leading lady from Ribbon Girl in ARMS 2 (whenever that happens) in light of Twintelle's popularity, which would be a net upgrade for her. Concerning Marina, she basically has the same problem as Twintelle in that she's only a side character. And while it's implied that she can use the various weapons in the world of Splatoon, we haven't seen her do much beyond tech work. And of course, there are the obvious racist stereotypes that are still an issue in Smash Ultimate. But there is still reason to be hopeful, especially with the progress we've already seen. It's only a matter of time before we get more main characters who are black/brown (which is one of the glaring omissions left in terms of Nintendo's progress, Tethu aside) that can stand a chance of pushing Nintendo (& the next Smash game's roster) forward in this regard. But I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter. How do you feel about Nintendo's progress & setbacks regarding black/brown representation in their games? If I missed anyone in this thread or made an error along the way, please let me know so I can correct it.
 
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ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,698
Hopefully there are some more main characters that are poc. I guess the issue is that now they are making more and more create a character games, with less of a chance for a set unique character that is viable for smash. That's just an issue for smash though, but in general there will be more poc characters. I wpuld like to see a new poc mario character. Or at least make daisy tan again.
 

Waddle Dee

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,725
California
It's surprising how much better Nintendo has gotten in terms of representation in the past year but that Smash Bros spirit shit is inexcusable. NoA is gonna have to pay more attention to stuff like that cause it's not something Nintendo, or Japan in general, is going to stop doing anytime soon.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Zero Suit Samus and Dee Jay have the EXACT same side kick.
Zero Suit Samus is already used as a Chun-Li stand-in.

The Spirits aren't just about "throw a random character in to represent someone else." They obviously looked at the move sets of the Smash characters and how they can match up with the Spirit, particularly with various spirit modifiers (ex: reduced jump height to better match Street Fighter jumping). They didn't make Diddy represent Dee Jay because of racism. They chose Diddy to represent Dee Jay because of his attacks.
 

Fosko

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,955
Does that FE character really count as black/brown? I've seen super white people with a way darker skin during the summer.
 

delete12345

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 17, 2017
19,731
Boston, MA
Does that FE character really count as black/brown? I've seen super white people with a way darker skin during the summer.
My skin can be dark tan or pale white depending on whether I'm baking in the sun, or sheltering in the winter and staying indoors in isolation. I still have that suntan I received while doing military conscription.

I'm one of those people you mentioned.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,501
My issue is, even with the examples in the OP is that a lot of those characters just look white but with dark/tanned skin.

More characters from Nintendo that actually look black, hispanic, South Asian etc. is what we need. Representation of PoC comes down to more than just skin colour. Facial features and traits are defining part of different ethnicities.

I feel Nintendo is stumbling there more than anything.
 

Sea lion

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
903
I'm glad Nintendo is moving forward with this, they've been atrocious in the past with the Animal Crossing tanning and lack of skin colours for your Fire Emblem avatar, and they could do better like having a lead PoC, but theres been progress at least.

And I see Claude from FE as a PoC, or half at the very least.
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,499
I love that Twintelle bucks the stereotype and is a regal af black character. I hate that the internet made it about her ass.
 

Deleted member 388

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,813
Dragalia Lost is the property with Nintendo attached pulling the most weight.

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But people will say it doesn't count because it's a phone game.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,160
Does that FE character really count as black/brown? I've seen super white people with a way darker skin during the summer.
Look at his hair.

Anime stylings aren't generally reflective of real life. You have to understand shorthand here. Brown skin, textured hair, braids = brown person.
 

Parshias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,600
This falls into the same sort of category as Pokemon as it is a Cygames and Nintendo joint, but someone over in the game's OT was wondering if Dragalia Lost was the Nintendo game with the most amount of black characters in it and it might be close.

Black characters:

Brown characters specifically presented as foreigners:

Then there are four other characters with darker skin, including one of the story characters, that I'm not exactly sure how to place. Here's the story character as an example:

 

Deleted member 35598

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 7, 2017
6,350
Spain
That's a good to see a little progress but we still have a long way to at Nintendo. But I'm wondering if this is not something that we see with other japanese developers as well.

Besides, I think we not only lack brown/black characters in games, but also in the videogames Industry as a whole : executives, developers, actors, media, etc. If we make noise, things will eventually improve, so I salute this type of threads.
 

Eulala

Member
Aug 8, 2018
710
Putting a playable Elma with her OG look in Smash is a start. Please let it happen.
 
OP
OP
Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,467
Houston, TX
Dragalia Lost is the property with Nintendo attached pulling the most weight.

dOrjqg8.jpg


But people will say it doesn't count because it's a phone game.
This falls into the same sort of category as Pokemon as it is a Cygames and Nintendo joint, but someone over in the game's OT was wondering if Dragalia Lost was the Nintendo game with the most amount of black characters in it and it might be close.

Black characters:


Brown characters specifically presented as foreigners:


Then there are four other characters with darker skin, including one of the story characters, that I'm not exactly sure how to place. Here's the story character as an example:
Thanks for reminding me. I've since edited the OP & gave both of you credit for bringing Dragalia Lost to my attention.
 

kirbyfan407

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,119
Dragalia Lost is the property with Nintendo attached pulling the most weight.

dOrjqg8.jpg


But people will say it doesn't count because it's a phone game.

This falls into the same sort of category as Pokemon as it is a Cygames and Nintendo joint, but someone over in the game's OT was wondering if Dragalia Lost was the Nintendo game with the most amount of black characters in it and it might be close.

Black characters:


Brown characters specifically presented as foreigners:


Then there are four other characters with darker skin, including one of the story characters, that I'm not exactly sure how to place. Here's the story character as an example:

I really like some of those designs. Does this mean I'm going to have to play Dragalia Lost at some point? *sigh*
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,720
Brazil
I hate how anime makes everyone have the whitest of features ... to the point that it makes me doubt how much of those were created thinking of actual PoC and how many were created thinking of "japanese people with a tan" =/
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,467
Houston, TX
Putting a playable Elma with her OG look in Smash is a start. Please let it happen.
Unfortunately, Nintendo may not have had much incentive to choose Elma since we likely won't get a Xenoblade X port anytime soon.

I hate how anime makes everyone have the whitest of features ... to the point that it makes me doubt how much of those were created thinking of actual PoC and how many were created thinking of "japanese people with a tan" =/
At the very least, Twintelle distinctly looks black in terms of her facial features.
 
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Busaiku

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,531
Nefaria and Addis are foreigners too. Nefaria being from somewhere Egyptian-like and Addis from Japan-like.
Hawk, Malora, Ranzal, and Johanna are Grastean (European-like) though.
Rawn is also Grastean, but I think he was likely inspired by Mowgli though.
 

Yolkghost

Member
Oct 25, 2017
681
I'm happy to see Dragalia Lost in here because I truly love the character designs in that game.

I also think Pokemon has done a decent job of PoC representation for a while, but it was nice to see it ramp up more in Sun/Moon.
After all, Black/White gave us characters like Marshall, Iris, and Lenora while XY also brought us Grant, Emma, and Sina, alongside a lot of other trainer classes. If anything i'd say gamefreak has done a good job with representation so far (especially since I believe we also have some PoC in sinnoh?) for a while, but it looks even better alongside the new characters Nintendo is beginning to introduce.
 

Faustek

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,876
I'm like 99% sure the intended reference with this one is just the vague similarity between their acrobatic fighting styles, especially considering the "enemy favors side specials" modifier

I'm 100% sure that intent or lack of intent still makes it look bad. I don't care if Mr/Ms average don't catch it but companies should.


Wait, Claude is black/brown?

Yeah, some of those examples feels as a stretch. Which is perfect for Nintendo. Don't need to take a stance and be clear. Just let the fans fuck around and whatnot.
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,467
Houston, TX
Nefaria and Addis are foreigners too. Nefaria being from somewhere Egyptian-like and Addis from Japan-like.
Hawk, Malora, Ranzal, and Johanna are Grastean (European-like) though.
Rawn is also Grastean, but I think he was likely inspired by Mowgli though.
Any chance I could get some transparent png images of them so they can be added to the OP?
 

mopinks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,585
I'm 100% sure that intent or lack of intent still makes it look bad. I don't care if Mr/Ms average don't catch it but companies should.
well yeah, no argument here

just pointing out that the Dee Jay example isn't any more or less questionable than the other two Smash examples mentioned in the OP
 

jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,046
NYC
It's about damn time.

If they don't let me start out as a brown character in animal crossing i'm gonna be pissed
 

kirbyfan407

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,119
It's about damn time.

If they don't let me start out as a brown character in animal crossing i'm gonna be pissed

It was allowed in Happy Home Designer and Pocket Camp (everything post-ACNL, basically), so signs point to letting you do that.

EDIT: Starting the post and then coming back to it later led to just repeating what mopinks said.
 

jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,046
NYC

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,548
About Fire Emblem: Three Houses' Claude: I think the intent in the character art is for him to be a PoC, but they seriously need to improve his in-game character model. Granted, the reveal trailer was potentially early footage, and it could better when we see more, but his model didn't look great — and looked even lighter-skinned, to boot:

threehouses-claude.jpg
 

Faustek

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,876
About Animal Crossing. Do y'all realize what language we using? "allowed", "signs", "maybe". I don't like that we're in such a situation so that this language is apt to the situation.

well yeah, no argument here

just pointing out that the Dee Jay example isn't any more or less questionable than the other two Smash examples mentioned in the OP

Cool.
 

Pancakes R Us

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,352
It's surprising how much better Nintendo has gotten in terms of representation in the past year but that Smash Bros spirit shit is inexcusable. NoA is gonna have to pay more attention to stuff like that cause it's not something Nintendo, or Japan in general, is going to stop doing anytime soon.
Totally agree with your last sentence. NoE and A need to step up and take the lead here or at least make some demands, because NCL is way behind the times.
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
I'm like 99% sure the intended reference with this one is just the vague similarity between their acrobatic fighting styles, especially considering the "enemy favors side specials" modifier

Zero Suit Samus is already used as a Chun-Li stand-in.

The Spirits aren't just about "throw a random character in to represent someone else." They obviously looked at the move sets of the Smash characters and how they can match up with the Spirit, particularly with various spirit modifiers (ex: reduced jump height to better match Street Fighter jumping). They didn't make Diddy represent Dee Jay because of racism. They chose Diddy to represent Dee Jay because of his attacks.
There was constant back and forth on this in the other thread but the point really is not if Nintendo did this with malicious intent or not. It's not about if you can somehow try to rationalize why it makes total sense to have black characters represented by monkeys and gorillas because it was for some other non-related reason. What matters is that it does it anyway, with or without intent and that is a problem.

Perhaps you aren't aware but black people being compared to monkeys has a deep and troubled history and it has been used all over the world for a long time to call them subhuman. This is not something you want to be perpetuating and you ARE perpetuating it even if you don't mean it to be racist. You still need to be aware of and sensitive of these things. Nintendo has absolutely no excuse letting something this blatant make it through to the final product. It's harmful no matter what their reason for doing it that way was. Nintendo should know better.
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,747
Canada
Fire Emblem Fates might have come out in 2015 in Japan but it was a 2016 title everywhere else and still pulled the same dark skinned evil dad shit that Awakening did where all his good and pure kids are light skinned.

Also fuck the character creator not allowing any skintone change.
 

PCPace

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,841
Alabama
For Diddy Kong and Deejay, what is the Japanese pronunciation of their respective names? I don't know it but would expect them both to sound something like Dee Dee and Dee Dee Ay respectively. That's based on my experience with transliteration of Hangul however. If that's the case I understand the use as the spirit because of the very similar names and Diddy focusing on lots of kicks and confusing movements like dance fighting, and both characters being designed by westerners.

Could anyone familiar with the characters in Japanese enlighten me to their respective pronunciations?
 

Mory Dunz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,433
Once we get this as the sole protagonist to a Xeno or any story driven 1st party game

800px-110267_01_r05_portrait.png


that'd be something worth talking about
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,747
Canada
Oh and Fire Emblem Heroes 2018 story had you fighting against Muspellheim, the evil conquering empire from another realm. Guess what colour skin they have?
 

kirbyfan407

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,119
Once we get this as the sole protagonist to a Xeno or any story driven 1st party game

800px-110267_01_r05_portrait.png


that'd be something worth talking about

I agree. I like the examples in the OP, but this is what I'm waiting for.

About Animal Crossing. Do y'all realize what language we using? "allowed", "signs", "maybe". I don't like that we're in such a situation so that this language is apt to the situation.

It was my post that contained those words, and I totally agree with your sentiment. It's frustrating and outrageous that it's not guaranteed in a game with a character creator. I will also say that I tend to obsessively lean into words like might/could/maybe, and I don't want to promise anything for a game that has only been shown via a Smash Bros. promotional video featuring Tom Nook. I would say it should be certain, and if I were a betting man, I'd bet that it'll be there. But I won't promise that (in the same way that I wouldn't tell someone that Kirby will be in the next Smash Bros. game).

I guess the TL;DR is that I totally agree with your sentiment, but I want to own that my language is making things worse. For example, I think "allowed" is a word with bad connotations here, but it was the player verb that came to mind for what in games is coded as part of customization choices. I apologize for exacerbating things with my phrasing and word choice.

Anyway, do things right, Nintendo, and let people see themselves in your games.
 
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Timppis

Banned
Apr 27, 2018
2,857
Dragalia Lost is the property with Nintendo attached pulling the most weight.

dOrjqg8.jpg


But people will say it doesn't count because it's a phone game.
I wish SO MUCH they would flesh it out into fully fledged console IP.
This thing is goddamn gorgeous and entertaining and has some great depth and lore possibilities
 

Mory Dunz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,433
I agree. I like the examples in the OP, but this is what I'm waiting for.
yup.
I will say that I like the sun/moon guys, since not all of them just look the same as any design but with dark skin.
Their dress, etc seems representative of the region/culture.

but yeah, main voiced protagonist of an adventure or JRPG that looks like that.
That's the real breakthrough
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,467
Houston, TX
Fire Emblem Fates might have come out in 2015 in Japan but it was a 2016 title everywhere else and still pulled the same dark skinned evil dad shit that Awakening did where all his good and pure kids are light skinned.

Also fuck the character creator not allowing any skintone change.
The point of this thread is to look at the progress (good & bad) Nintendo has made in terms of black/brown representation in their games since Sakurai locked in the base roster for Smash Ultimate. Because Fire Emblem Fates came out in 2015 in Japan, that would put it within Smash Ultimate's sphere of influence for the roster.

Once we get this as the sole protagonist to a Xeno or any story driven 1st party game

800px-110267_01_r05_portrait.png


that'd be something worth talking about
yup.
I will say that I like the sun/moon guys, since not all of them just look the same as any design but with dark skin.
Their dress, etc seems representative of the region/culture.

but yeah, main voiced protagonist of an adventure or JRPG that looks like that.
That's the real breakthrough
That's also what I'm waiting for, & I even mentioned the need for black main characters at the end of the OP since that's what it'll take for real change to come to Smash's roster in whatever comes after Ultimate.
 

Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
13,441
Octopus girl is so cute!
some of those just look less white ish, maybe for Pokemon they could just be tanned from the sun 🌞