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DeuceGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,476
I've yet to see a game developer who has learned from their mistakes after enabling a shit carnival like GG. I sincerely doubt that someone who had a meltdown on the other forum that late in his age is actually capable of learning from their mistakes.

This isn't some uncommon thought process either. Some people are incapable of noticing their shit stinks. Doesn't help that people enabling him with the bullshit "second chances!!!!" Prevents him from improving.

Giving someone a chance to debate and tell their thoughts and stance on a topic is not enabling them. I just hop on this new forum we don't always rush to judgment. When they are a member they should at least have an opportunity to respond and explain their thoughts. Just my opinion.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,111
Anyone play the "idk what GG is, pls educate me" card yet?

I posted stuff from my Gamergate folder in another thread recently that might be useful, let me dig it out. I don't have a summary of Gamergate on hand but it should be enough in case people genuinely don't know what it's about or try to pretend it's something else.
__________________________

I figured this kind of thing was coming up, so in case anyone wants to pull that kind of stuff again, here are some images I grabbed from 8chan's Gamergate board or the surrounding discussion on NeoGAF:

Here's the first draft of /pol/'s companion to the Gamergate mascot, who invokes the Aryan ideal. They later switched them out for a uniformed Polina because it wasn't explicit enough for /pol/'s taste.

Here's a casually transphobic image to demonize feminist critics.

Here's someone pointing out an 8chan doxxing thread.

Here is the guy who kicked off this whole thing explicitly stating that he refuses to abide a restraining order.

Here's Gamergate, white supremacy, and threats all explicitly together in a few tweets.

Here's someone who screencapped the original Gamergate discussions before they were expelled from /v/, where discuss spinning a narrative to hide from it being a harassment campaign.

Here's an image from 8chan which tries to explain why women are at fault for the world being less conservative.

Here's a series of threats against Brianna Wu.

Here's a Gamergate supporter being caught trying to impersonate a black person to win an online argument.

Here's an image parodying communist propaganda they made demonizing critics, women and academics. The clasped hands and faces in the center are drawn based on anti-Semitic caricatures which were also popular on the board, and can be seen inserted into a comic critical of Gamergate, in order to reframe the comic as being racist.

I don't think I still have all the images I found back then, like the visual novel they were writing where literally half of the characters (seriously, I can name them all) were Nazis, but that should be enough to paint the picture, and hopefully dismiss the "bogeyman" claim.
 

Squidi

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
120
KnowYourMeme is actually a preferred Gamergate site, oddly enough; I don't know if it's because the staff supports Gamergate or if they're hands-off and allow Gamergate to write their own page. I want to say it's the second but I didn't really dig into that particular site.
I did not know that. I just saw that there were 40 footnote links and that just about every statement seemed to be sourced (I'm a big proponent of primary sources). I didn't read it so I didn't know that anybody considered it biased. Still, with that many sources, at the very least, you can bypass KYM's bias and see the material directly.

Gamergate also tried to get in contact with Wikipedia and get their side of the story in, which basically means going against the actual evidence of their history. They weren't having any of it though.
Completely aside from GamerGate, my experiences with Wikipedia shows it to be biased as hell and unscrupulous editors can game the system to badmouth others. I was banned from editing my own page, despite it containing provable factual inaccuracies, because a person who was stalking me at the time managed to convince the other editors that my participation violated a neutral POV policy - despite the fact that the article included information that I, and I alone, was privy to (which they outright lied about). I ended up petitioning Wikipedia to remove the page on me on account that I wasn't notable enough to warrant one. The way that enemies can use Wikipedia as a vector of attack has left a very sour taste in my mouth.

Anything contemporary and contentious, I would caution against using Wikipedia's version of it. Even if you agree with them.
 

catboy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,322
Fair enough, I didn't realize it was a habit of yours. It did look quite bad in the context here, so yeah.
Apologies. I call other users miss [username], but you are right in that when referring to someone negatively it appears demeaning so I will keep it in the communities where it is more common.
 

GameAddict411

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,525
Anyone play the "idk what GG is, pls educate me" card yet?
It basically started as an investigation about a female indie developer who apparently "slept" around with game critics to give her game more publicity. These claims have not demonstrated any sort of proof of this is happening. So some gamers made their life goal to harass this woman. From death threats to stalking. She couldn't go back to her home anymore. It wasn't about ethics in journalism anymore, which I believe was the cover. The pro GG went after game journalist as well the same way, and I believe from experience that it was an anti-women group targeting several women in the gaming industry. A lot of misogynists were involved with the movement hence why it's called a hate group. I think Kotatu had a great article about the GG issue that cropped up. Dennis made it perfectly clear he was a pro GG on several occasions, and it's why people are wary of him on this thread. A lot of Gaffers probably weren't familiar with the GG issue a lot because it was banned soon after it started. A lot of GAF users who were pro GG were banned as well.
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,135
GamerGate has been misogynist bullshit since it's inception, there was never any confusion to anyone other than the people trying to mask their bullshit misogynist beliefs.
This is just being naive. Yes we can say that in hindsight now that we have all the facts and actors behind the scene figured out that the true Gamergate is a horseshit movement led by misogynist nazi neckbeards. But next to bitcoins, gamergate was the most confusing nonsense I've ever attempted to understand as it was developing (at the time!)

The timeline was a confusing one, and tracking who started what and when as well as untangling the mess to understand the true sources and objective is a confusion I remember well from the time. Because of this, I have no doubt that people not in the know of it's most up to date developments at the time got swept up in the surface level mask of the "movement".

I'll be clear; I didn't know of his gamergate support until this thread. And if he comes in here and continues to call himself a gamergater or supports gamergate even one iota, I won't bat an eye in ignoring him for good and decisively placing him in the shitheel category. But before that I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and the platform to state once and for all his exact stance on this, as well as assuring us he truly understands the gravity and harm of what the Gamergate movement really is.
 

FreezePeach

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,811
Man, those statements are something. Hey, you an asshole? You like the gamergate? Fuck you. Otherwise man hey its all cool, make logical sense and post all you want. Sorry but lots of opportunistic assholes seeing Reset as like clean slate to spread their bullshit and restart careers. Yeah., we remember horrible people. So sorry.
 

MacReady13

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
128
This user was banned for one week for espousing GamerGate rhetoric in this and other posts.
Surprised we are letting gamergaters on this site tbqh.

I'm no mysoginist and I'm a "gamergater". For me it was ALL about ethics in journalism. Why should I NOT be allowed here??? I never did anything wrong. I don't agree with ANY of the harassment but I don't like any of the lies and deception on either side. So judge me as you will but I'm surprised we can segregate so simply here... thought things were different from neogaf. Maybe they aren't...
 

TinfoilHatsROn

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,119
I did not know that. I just saw that there were 40 footnote links and that just about every statement seemed to be sourced (I'm a big proponent of primary sources). I didn't read it so I didn't know that anybody considered it biased. Still, with that many sources, at the very least, you can bypass KYM's bias and see the material directly.

Completely aside from GamerGate, my experiences with Wikipedia shows it to be biased as hell and unscrupulous editors can game the system to badmouth others. I was banned from editing my own page, despite it containing provable factual inaccuracies, because a person who was stalking me at the time managed to convince the other editors that my participation violated a neutral POV policy - despite the fact that the article included information that I, and I alone, was privy to (which they outright lied about). I ended up petitioning Wikipedia to remove the page on me on account that I wasn't notable enough to warrant one. The way that enemies can use Wikipedia as a vector of attack has left a very sour taste in my mouth.

Anything contemporary and contentious, I would caution against using Wikipedia's version of it. Even if you agree with them.
What? You consider KYM a 'good' source of information because it has a ton of footnotes of 'primary' sources? How do you know this is primary and not lifted out of context? Could you not extend your same logic to Wikipedia?
This is just being naive. Yes we can say that in hindsight now that we have all the facts and actors behind the scene figured out that the true Gamergate is a horseshit movement led by misogynist nazi neckbeards. But next to bitcoins, gamergate was the most confusing nonsense I've ever attempted to understand as it was developing (at the time!)

The timeline was a confusing one, and tracking who started what and when as well as untangling the mess to understand the true sources and objective is a confusion I remember well from the time. Because of this, I have no doubt that people not in the know of it's most up to date developments at the time got swept up in the surface level mask of the "movement".

I'll be clear; I didn't know of his gamergate support until this thread. And if he comes in here and continues to call himself a gamergater or supports gamergate even one iota, I won't bat an eye in ignoring him for good and decisively placing him in the shitheel category. But before that I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and the platform to state once and for all his exact stance on this, as well as assuring us he truly understands the gravity and harm of what the Gamergate movement really is.
There was an interview a few pages back where he explained his current stance. I'll see if I can quote it for you.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,208
This is just being naive. Yes we can say that in hindsight now that we have all the facts and actors behind the scene figured out that the true Gamergate is a horseshit movement led by misogynist nazi neckbeards. But next to bitcoins, gamergate was the most confusing nonsense I've ever attempted to understand as it was developing (at the time!)

The timeline was a confusing one, and tracking who started what and when as well as untangling the mess to understand the true sources and objective is a confusion I remember well from the time. Because of this, I have no doubt that people not in the know of it's most up to date developments at the time got swept up in the surface level mask of the "movement".

I'll be clear; I didn't know of his gamergate support until this thread. And if he comes in here and continues to call himself a gamergater or supports gamergate even one iota, I won't bat an eye in ignoring him for good and decisively placing him in the shitheel category. But before that I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and the platform to state once and for all his exact stance on this, as well as assuring us he truly understands the gravity and harm of what the Gamergate movement really is.

It is absolutely not naive to think that reasonable people would have known what GG was, and what they stood for, in 20fucking15. The entire movement started on the idea of harassing women. It was never some pure, noble cause that was later stained by a fringe group. It was always shit. The people involved were always shit. This picture you are trying to paint that there was ever this grey area surrounding GamerGate is pure fiction.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Ooph.That is harsh.

But I'll stick to what I said earlier. Give the guy a chance and judge him by what he does now, not in the past.

If he fucks up (again?) and proves to be a piece of shit by all means chase him out of town, but I feel like ResetEra has its name for a reason, so let's at least give him a chance to fuck up, or something. ;)
If he doesn't want to have his past dragged into this he could've registered as GameCubeFan99 and just post like the rest of us plebs. But if you want the attention and adulation of being a Famous Gaming Person (and to have a thread created about the fact that you might create a thread in the future), I don't think it's realistic to expect people to only consider the parts of your biography that paints you in a good light.
 

catboy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,322
I'm no mysoginist and I'm a "gamergater". For me it was ALL about ethics in journalism. Why should I NOT be allowed here??? I never did anything wrong. I don't agree with ANY of the harassment but I don't like any of the lies and deception on either side. So judge me as you will but I'm surprised we can segregate so simply here... thought things were different from neogaf. Maybe they aren't...
GG was literally never actually about ethics in game journalism, and the fact that this was peddled by a bunch of youtubers who (at the time) had no kind regulatory oversight themselves should have been a dead giveaway.
 

Busaiku

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,531
If he's going to GG conventions or whatever, he knows what GG is.
Like, seriously people.
 

TinfoilHatsROn

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,119
I'm no mysoginist and I'm a "gamergater". For me it was ALL about ethics in journalism. Why should I NOT be allowed here??? I never did anything wrong. I don't agree with ANY of the harassment but I don't like any of the lies and deception on either side. So judge me as you will but I'm surprised we can segregate so simply here... thought things were different from neogaf. Maybe they aren't...
Because you literally support a harassment campaign against women and journalists and also female devs and journalists. There is no damn excuse for this stuff, are you kidding me? GG has been exposed multiple times, even by the Media, and you still associate with them? Stop complaining about GAF. Reseters built this site because of those issues.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,111
It is absolutely not naive to think that reasonable people would have known what GG was, and what they stood for, in 20fucking15. The entire movement started on the idea of harassing women. It was never some pure, noble cause that was later stained by a fringe group. It was always shit. The people involved were always shit. This picture you are trying to paint that there was ever this grey area surrounding GamerGate is pure fiction.

Honestly, I had a member of my extended family tell me, unprompted, how much he hated Gamergate at a family gathering at the time. He still had bought into Gamergate's fake origin story. He thought of them as a harassment group and still thought that they began as a response to gaming articles. I do think there was a successful effort to spread misinformation at the time, and a lot of people thought that the movement stood for something other than what it did - but that lack of clarity didn't lack forever, and someone who has made recent statements like Dyack has had more than enough time to view the whole thing with clear vision.

I'm no mysoginist and I'm a "gamergater". For me it was ALL about ethics in journalism. Why should I NOT be allowed here??? I never did anything wrong. I don't agree with ANY of the harassment but I don't like any of the lies and deception on either side. So judge me as you will but I'm surprised we can segregate so simply here... thought things were different from neogaf. Maybe they aren't...

I'm not going to buy that you're not a misogynist just because you want me to believe that, especially when you're supporting a group that exists to harass women and was founded specifically to harass a woman.
 

Silky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,522
Georgia
I'm no mysoginist and I'm a "gamergater". For me it was ALL about ethics in journalism. Why should I NOT be allowed here??? I never did anything wrong. I don't agree with ANY of the harassment but I don't like any of the lies and deception on either side. So judge me as you will but I'm surprised we can segregate so simply here... thought things were different from neogaf. Maybe they aren't...

You can't be absolved of your associated guilt because you said "well I NEVER HARRASSED ANYONE!!!"

You can advocate for journalism ethics and not associate yourself with that label. If you knew it was a garbage label why in the hell would you continue referring to yourself as such.

But then again, I'm cynical as fuck and I don't believe anyone on the internet is capable of doing anything sensible like, you know, using common sense.
 

Denis_Dyack

CCO at QEE
Member
Oct 27, 2017
9
Ontario Canada
First I would like to thank HStallion for posting this thread for me and Nibel for suggesting this course of action. I can not answer everything post here it is just too much but I will try cover as much as I can.

You can never get enough positivity on this forum.

I could not agree more.

He's already here isn't he? How come he's a junior I thought he got in during the initial waves.

I am. :)

well hell yeah. thank you, Denis. ResetEra has the potential to one day be more impactful than Neogaf in its prime. and because of the circumstances of its founding, the potential is there for a more positive and gracious impact.

Thank you for trying to be part of a positive change.

Hi Dennis, welcome.

I've got a crazy Sanity idea/challenge mechanic based on night terrors I used to have as a kid that I'd love to share with you sometime. I posted it on the SotE forms after backing in the past.

Best wishes on the fresh start here.

Nicko

Thank you and thank you for contributing to SotE!

Hey, Dennis

Have you ever thought about starting a relationship again with Nintendo?
It seems like you were a good fit for each other.

I still have a relationship with them - we were a good fit for sure. Time will tell if we work together again in the future.

Some salient points. Now, how to get people to be a little more thoughtful with what they express, a little more courteous and a lot less self indulgent and immature.
Solve that riddle, and you've got something to work with.

Thank you. I hope it stays civil.

I love seeing posts and the like from developers and press and look forward to more. ResetERA has already proven to be a positive space to me, and I hope it stays that way for everyone!

Thank you, I hope more follow.

I really like his comment about responding to something like "does 1+1=2?" and either responding yes or no versus the attacks that ignore the question and just derail any potential feedback. I agree we're in the perfect position to build this community the right way, if we all want it, and I know we all do. We're all here for the fresh start and an even better place to talk about what we love. Let's try to remember that when the discussions get heated and not go crazy like other communities can - that's not us.

Thank you. I really wanted to make sure people see the downside and destructive nature of ad-hominem attacks and how they can hurt a community.

Awesome seeing devs here. Some great games you have been involved in. Welcome.

Thank you.

I keep hearing great things about Eternal Darkness, but never played it. I should probably fix that.

You should! :)

I hope Denis will get another shot at making Shadow of the Eternals someday.

Thank you for the support!

Dennis, consider all that past shit Reset! :)

Thank you!

supporting abhorrent bullshit doesn't magically disappear.

I have not supported anything abhorrent. Regardless, this is the very definition of an ad-hominem attack. The question really needs to be is 1 + 1 = 2 now wrong because you have somehow come to the conclusion that I was "supporting abhorrent bullshit". I would forward that 1+1 = 2 correct. Consider being open to the possibility that 1 + 1 = 2 might actually be correct.

Nice to see people from the industry are looking at this community with good eyes.

A great start - how the community moves forward over time will determine how others feel.

Hey Dennis, I was just playin Eternal Darkness on Dolphin this Halloween with my family and it's as awesome as I remembered!

Come on home.

Thank you! I am glad the experience still holds up today! :)

Zzz this again

Press X to let go

It may take awhile I for some I think. :D

I hope ResetEra will be far kinder and more constructive, rather than toxic and obnoxious, to game devs. Seeing the mods here actively warn people to knock off the "lol lazy devs" shitposts has been certainly encouraging.

I hope so too!

Nice positive message.

I hope the current tone continues. I saw a little bit of console wars flaring up in the 1X threads but the mods were quick to keep people on topic.

I like his attack the 1 + 1 argument, not the person stance.
Even with a positive environment I don't really expect the devs to come back. One wrong post and you end up as a headline on all the gaming news sites. I'm grateful to any games industry members who choose to post openly here.

It will always be difficult for developers to post - hopefully, this community will create an environment that is welcoming.

I've enjoyed my time here more than the other site due to the sheer amount of positive vibes lol. I hope more people from the industry post here... that's what got me into that other site.

Me as well.

Not true. I respect his work ethic. Also, his passion for video games. Don't have to agree with someone political views to listen and show respect.

Thank you. I agree politics, race, religion, and other things should not play a role into these things in general.

Eternal Darkness is still one of my favorite games of all time.

I enjoyed Too Human greatly. It did have issues to be sure, lack of a good tutorial and opening to get players used to the controls, or good in-game guides/events to encourage users to dive into the deeper mechanics of chaining combos together.

But what it had that I absolutely loved was its kickass soundtrack, so very underrated.




Thank you! I am glad you liked TH! :)

I had it in my head that he already had an account here on ResetEra but I guess I am mistaken.

I do :)

Dark Legions deserves a rerelease.

Hah - awesome. Brings back some good memories.

Okay, but that isn't an excuse at this point. So what does he have to say about it today?

I am a very strong proponent of ethics in journalism and always will be. That is generally what I have always said.

Sure, that's reasonable.

This thread is not a shield from criticism either. If people want Dyack to answer for his former (?) Gamergate support, or how he was alleged to have treated employees at Silicon Knights, etc. then he should be willing to answer tough questions too. As always, remain civil, and avoid bringing up past forum drama.

(And I say this as a long-time fan of Eternal Darkness and especially Blood Omen, one of my all-time favourites.)

I am not looking for a shield. If there is going to be personal criticism, I would simply forward that no one here knows me personally and any such criticisms would be without merit.

I respect him. He's a very accomplished game designer who unfortunately has poor project management skills. Not unlike Hideo Kojima. I believe he could make fantastic games if given a budget, a team, and a good producer. Eternal Darkness is a truly great game.

Thank you for the positive comments. I would also forward that no here would have the ability to access my project management skills unless you actually worked with me.

I believe on letting bygones be bygones.

But I also believe in explaining yourself when you have controversial views. Dyack doesn't have to do whatever he doesn't want to do, but it'd be nice to get some more insight as to why he believes GG should be supported. Especially when evidence has shown time and time again how misogynistic it is at its very core.

And I thought clouds, one console future, engagement theory were controversial. :) I am not misogynist and do not support misogyny.


I am not a smurf.

Nobody is dog piling anything. Don't escalate discourse and information being shared into hysterics happening all over the place.

I would disagree, there is already some extreme comments here.

GG has been far more toxic and damaging to this industry than anything done on NeoGAF or 1UP or any of the other places Dyack has taken issue with in the past. Obviously this forum can let in whoever they want, but supporters of GG absolutely do not deserve respect, and won't get mine. There's no bygones be bygones. GG is not a "political view".

I think there is a very reasonable point to be made that GG as turned into something completely political. Some major figures involved in the controversy are literally politicians now.

No no, pitch it to Nintendo. They would fund it. And while your at it head up a ED HD remake, and ED 2. I LOVE YOU DENNIS!

:D thanks for the kind words and support.

I must be one of the few who loved too human . Thought it's mechanics and setting was great .

Sucks we will probably never see another one .

Thank you for the kind words. Many liked Too Human.

Nintendo (and any other major publisher with a lick of sense) aren't going anywhere near his toxic ass. He's a walking dumpster fire.

1 + 1 = 2.

He created my favorite character ever, Kain, so I deeply respect him for that.

It would be great if that forum doesn't devolve into empty name-calling and personal Insults.

Thanks for the positive sentiments. Some always go negative but in the end, my hope is the majority will stay positive.

The bygones part was more about Dyack just having beef in general with GAF.

And yeah, I wouldn't respect him if he continued to follow GG, but I would like to have more of an explanation as to how someone can just ignore the threats against women by GG.

I strongly denounce any threats to women and frankly anyone. I always have.

I make it a point to never to sum up an individual by one particular ideological condemnation because you are then closing the discussion. That is in no way condoning misogyny but rather an attempt to understand, establishing a dialogue if you will. I would give Dennis the opportunity to explain himself and then reflect my values or beliefs back to him.

I believe a dialog is one of the paths to understanding it helps create mutual respect.

Denis_Dyack I always loved your stuff, man. I'd love to see you more active, not just here, but software.

Legacy of Kain and Eternal Darkness are amazing games, and nobody can ever take that away. I'm glad you're giving us a shot to have a healthy dialogue.

Thank you for the kind words and I will do my best to contribute here.

He treated his employees like shit and ran his Silicon Knights to the ground. Such passion.

I'm willing to believe the rumors that Nintendo had to help him.

The facts fly in the face of your comments and you this could not be further from the truth.

Right on. Don't try to police the questions before they arise is all I'm saying. He's a grown man. He could have cleared this up a looooong time ago if so inclined.

I was banned from NeoGAF, so actually, I literally could not.

all i have to say is, Denis, if you're watching MAKE A NEW BLOOD OMEN GAME, CRYSTAL DYNAMICS HAS INTEREST IN THE SERIES AGAIN, PLEASE DO IT

That would be a ton of fun!

I don't really expect any more from him than you, but if he's talked about it recently (as posted in the videos here) and he's a member of this board, then we should have more than enough resources with which to figure out what his stance actually is. You know you're going to hear that ResetEra is picking on him; it would be nice if the receipts were clearly there.



I'm forgetting, were there multiple sources pointing at this? It certainly painted my mental image of Dyack, but I remember it being considered kind of questionable at the time.

There were no credible sources or any evidence at all - this piece referenced here is the definition of yellow journalism.

Always loved his games. Eternal darkness is a damn classic.

Thank you!

We will let Denis_Dyack speak for himself. He asked admins if it was okay for this thread to be made, knowing what could happen. He now has a platform to be absolutely clear about his stance on GamerGate. Let's give him the microphone and see what happens.
\

Thank you, I am trying.

Eternal Darkness is my favorite Gamecube game.

I want either Nintendo or Dennis to release a damn sequel. I need it, xD

Thanks - I am glad you liked ED.

Cool so nothing has changed and somehow GG made him not a feminist... awesome

There are some negative connotations with that term "feminist" these days unfortunately and now and I am more comfortable with the term humanist.

Pull some strings and get Eternal Darkness: Pargon Edition on Switch.

Haha! Nice

I have less than zero interest in hearing what someone, who to this day refuses to call gamergate what it really is, has to say. His vendetta for the old forum is childish and self-inflicted. Can't even imagine why he'd be interested in resetera - we're the same community.

I would like to forward to you the concept that 1 + 1 = 2 and that ad-hominem attacks should not be the basis for which judge this concept to be true or false.


My mental image is about the same; the whole drama with Too Human where he badmouthed the old forum while posting "for or against" on it neatly falls in line too. If he's motivated by selfishness and lack of empathy I'm not any more impressed than if he's motivated by malice; if anything, it bugs me even more because any claimed ethical stance is just crudely constructed to suit an immediate need.

What immediate need is that - to come here for posts like this? LOL. I don't think so. I address For & Against in the first hour of the video if you are interested.
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,135
It is absolutely not naive to think that reasonable people would have known what GG was, and what they stood for, in 20fucking15. The entire movement started on the idea of harassing women. It was never some pure, noble cause that was later stained by a fringe group. It was always shit. The people involved were always shit. This picture you are trying to paint that there was ever this grey area surrounding GamerGate is pure fiction.
You're misunderstanding me. I'm in total agreement that the movement, it's perpetuators and originators were garbage humans peddling a hate group from the start. The "gray area" as you state I am illustrating is more on outsiders that were bamboozled by the sham "noble" shell this trojan horse of a movement donned in it's rise in the public eye, either from lack of education on the matter, failure to update themselves or both.
 

MacReady13

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
128
Honestly, I had a member of my extended family tell me, unprompted, how much he hated Gamergate at a family gathering at the time. He still had bought into Gamergate's fake origin story. He thought of them as a harassment group and still thought that they began as a response to gaming articles. I do think there was a successful effort to spread misinformation at the time, and a lot of people thought that the movement stood for something other than what it did - but that lack of clarity didn't lack forever, and someone who has made recent statements like Dyack has had more than enough time to view the whole thing with clear vision.



I'm not going to buy that you're not a misogynist just because you want me to believe that, especially when you're supporting a group that exists to harass women and was founded specifically to harass a woman.

Frankly I don't care wether you believe me or not. My personal opinion on GG was about ethics in journalism. I never harassed anyone (like I'm now coping from anti GG's) and I most certainly am not a misogynist. Believe what you want. I don't need to prove myself to you. If my word isn't good enough, well quite frankly I don't care.
 

Clowns

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,882
You're misunderstanding me. I'm in total agreement that the movement, it's perpetuators and originators were garbage humans peddling a hate group from the start. The "gray area" as you state I am illustrating is more on outsiders that were bamboozled by the sham "noble" shell this trojan horse of a movement donned in it's rise in the public eye, either from lack of education on the matter, failure to update themselves or both.
It was clear what gamergate was after a week. It takes 5 minutes of reading to know what gamergate is now.
 

catboy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,322
You're misunderstanding me. I'm in total agreement that the movement, it's perpetuators and originators were garbage humans peddling a hate group from the start. The "gray area" as you state I am illustrating is more on outsiders that were bamboozled by the sham "noble" shell this trojan horse of a movement donned in it's rise in the public eye, either from lack of education on the matter, failure to update themselves or both.
It absolutely didn't help that "trustworthy" sources like t*talbiscuit and b*ogie either partially endorsed or both-sides'd the fuck out of it while it was happening.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,208
Frankly I don't care wether you believe me or not. My personal opinion on GG was about ethics in journalism. I never harassed anyone (like I'm now coping from anti GG's) and I most certainly am not a misogynist. Believe what you want. I don't need to prove myself to you. If my word isn't good enough, well quite frankly I don't care.

You don't get to define what GG is to suit your own agenda. GG is what it is. If you support GamerGate, you support mysoginy and harrassment. There's no real way around that. You sound like the people who try and bend over backwards to explain what the Confederate flag means to them.
 

Silky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,522
Georgia
Frankly I don't care wether you believe me or not. My personal opinion on GG was about ethics in journalism. I never harassed anyone (like I'm now coping from anti GG's) and I most certainly am not a misogynist. Believe what you want. I don't need to prove myself to you. If my word isn't good enough, well quite frankly I don't care.

"Anti-GGs"

Whew you almost got me
 

Wallach

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,653
I'm no mysoginist and I'm a "gamergater". For me it was ALL about ethics in journalism. Why should I NOT be allowed here??? I never did anything wrong. I don't agree with ANY of the harassment but I don't like any of the lies and deception on either side. So judge me as you will but I'm surprised we can segregate so simply here... thought things were different from neogaf. Maybe they aren't...

The basic question there is simple; there is no meaningful link between "ethics in journalism" and the group that identifies as "GamerGaters". It wasn't there at the beginning and still does not exist to this day. Why bother associating yourself with a group rather than an idea, especially if you know the group has so many truly important reasons to avoid being associated with that run contrary to the very concept of ethics in the first place?

I at least like to think I care about ethics about as much as the next decent person. By association I care about ethics in journalism, or the industry I work in, or really anything else. It requires no associations to hold these beliefs. It would actually require a great deal of rationalization to claim I cared about these things and then associated with a group that has shown they very clearly do not care about ethics except when it suits their desires, and have actively sought real harm against innocent people. And therein lies the problem.
 

MacReady13

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
128
You don't get to define what GG is to suit your own agenda. GG is what it is. You sound like the people who try and bend over backwards to explain what the Confederate flag means to them.

Yeah that's fair enough. Maybe I shouldn't associate with the assholes. For me personally it was about ethics in journalism. Anything else I wanted and had nothing to do with. Frankly it was terrible what some of those women copped.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,330
Frankly I don't care wether you believe me or not. My personal opinion on GG was about ethics in journalism. I never harassed anyone (like I'm now coping from anti GG's) and I most certainly am not a misogynist. Believe what you want. I don't need to prove myself to you. If my word isn't good enough, well quite frankly I don't care.

An opinion can only go so far before it ceases to be a valid interpretation of events and instead becomes a wholesale denial of reality.

Gamergate was not, and never will be about "ethics in videogame journalism"
 

catboy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,322
I'm out. Take it as a kneejerk reaction on my part, whatever.
C_W3pZTU0AA8Z4q.jpg
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,208
Yeah that's fair enough. Maybe I shouldn't associate with the assholes. For me personally it was about ethics in journalism. Anything else I wanted and had nothing to do with. Frankly it was terrible what some of those women copped.

The fault with your logic is that mysogonists harassing women is ALL gamergate was ever about. It wasn't some noble movement that was perverted. It started out that way. If you don't associate with or agree with those things, you probably shouldn't go around saying you are a gamergater. GG has nothing to actually do with ethics in journalism. You can be for REAL ethical standards in journalism (of all kinds, not just gaming) without having to have anything to do with the shitheels.
 

Zebei

Member
Oct 25, 2017
766
Honestly, a really nice succinct post that people could just Ctrl+V to post whenever someone brings up GG would be really convenient. Arguing with GG'ers is the fast track to losing brain cells so having a nice little template would be convenient.


Also, if GG was good at anything (besides harassing women) it was a smokescreen as thick as molasses. 4chan/twitter/reddit/knowyourmeme/etc propaganda was everywhere. Anyone young and impressionable, or anyone not paying attention saw at as ethics in journalism. People who actually were educated/paying attention actually got to see what really happened. I know I fell victim to the smokescreen like an absolute tool for a little bit...thankfully I had no internet presence then. Seriously though for the love of god if you want to survive on ERA dont label yourself as a gamergator. You wont last long with a label of "woman harasser."


Denis_Dyack
Denis_Dyack
You never answered the question. Do you still support GamerGate, yes or no?
Easy yes or no answer here. No non-answers needed.
 
Oct 27, 2017
325
ERA. You have a wonderful opportunity right now to actually make a positive change. Please think about how your words can either break down barriers around people's hearts or build them up.

EDIT: Gat dangit Vlaud.
 

TinfoilHatsROn

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,119
You're misunderstanding me. I'm in total agreement that the movement, it's perpetuators and originators were garbage humans peddling a hate group from the start. The "gray area" as you state I am illustrating is more on outsiders that were bamboozled by the sham "noble" shell this trojan horse of a movement donned in it's rise in the public eye, either from lack of education on the matter, failure to update themselves or both.
I got you the link, if you still want to watch it but now that Dyack is here, he can explain himself.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=emIP0UrDnKY
And here is a summary from another poster.
Starts around 00:13:30, finished a bit before 00:19:00.

Long story short; for Denis it was "exclusively about ethics in games journalism" "if you were to ask me pre-GG if I was a Feminist I'd say yes, now I would just say I'm a humanist..." "both sides muddied the waters" "both sides" "both sides" "both sides."
Frankly I don't care wether you believe me or not. My personal opinion on GG was about ethics in journalism. I never harassed anyone (like I'm now coping from anti GG's) and I most certainly am not a misogynist. Believe what you want. I don't need to prove myself to you. If my word isn't good enough, well quite frankly I don't care.
Do you just not believe in the facts then? Your 'personal opinion' goes against the truth then. Do you believe that the Earth being flat is an opinion too? Also this isn't harrassment, this is you telling everyone your opinion in the first place.
But does 2 + 2 = Fish?
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,858
I didn't like how he treated Mark MacDonald on that episode of EGM Live.

That influenced my opinion on the person, and then I am seeing the stuff NinjaScooter is posting.
 

Igniz12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,453
Yeah that's fair enough. Maybe I shouldn't associate with the assholes. For me personally it was about ethics in journalism. Anything else I wanted and had nothing to do with. Frankly it was terrible what some of those women copped.

What Ethics? Was there any specific case of these "Ethics" that does not point back to the BS Quinn story that GG concocted?
 
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