A Second Letter to Resettlers; or "But The Future Refused to Change"
- Thread starter Finale Fireworker
- Start date
Discussions like this are a good sign for people's investment in the community. I feel compelled to offer a counter-perspective (even agreeing with most of what OP laid out): I think people, maybe even the OP here, sometimes confuse valid criticism for cynical negativity. I've seen discussions flowing exactly as discussion should, with people politely (but firmly) disagreeing on points of contention while referencing their perspectives, only to be followed by "uhhg, I thought we left this on the old site" by a third party.
I do agree that people are many times overly jaded, unnecessarily harsh with their words, or loose with their grip on the realities behind fresh events. I also think the only way to "avoid" that is to not have the conversations at all; these are intrinsic pitfalls of ego and personality in a wide-based group. That's not an acceptable thing to sacrifice. Moderation will forever be important to keeping a community in line, but I think that's going as well (or even better) than could be expected.
Positivity will forever be important, though I'm seeing this idea that the reason for Resetera's creation was to "get away from negativity." I feel this mischaracterizes events. People left because of an unrepentant owner confronted with realities of his actions. People left because part of that owner's petulant reaction was to make moderation almost impossible for those trying to keep the community together. That owner became secretive in a way that threw moderators under the bus, and obscured his own actions on the site. His history came into focus such that posters, and in some ways more importantly moderators, lost faith in his good intentions. Remembering that is more important than an "everyone smile" sign on the wall.
We may be referring to different behaviors, but I think trying to be positive even in situations where events and circumstances simply don't call for it will lead to its own frustrations for the community. Let people be negative, but respond with a counter-perspective, and moderate when it calls for it.
[I love OP's use of "netizens," btw]
I do agree that people are many times overly jaded, unnecessarily harsh with their words, or loose with their grip on the realities behind fresh events. I also think the only way to "avoid" that is to not have the conversations at all; these are intrinsic pitfalls of ego and personality in a wide-based group. That's not an acceptable thing to sacrifice. Moderation will forever be important to keeping a community in line, but I think that's going as well (or even better) than could be expected.
Positivity will forever be important, though I'm seeing this idea that the reason for Resetera's creation was to "get away from negativity." I feel this mischaracterizes events. People left because of an unrepentant owner confronted with realities of his actions. People left because part of that owner's petulant reaction was to make moderation almost impossible for those trying to keep the community together. That owner became secretive in a way that threw moderators under the bus, and obscured his own actions on the site. His history came into focus such that posters, and in some ways more importantly moderators, lost faith in his good intentions. Remembering that is more important than an "everyone smile" sign on the wall.
We may be referring to different behaviors, but I think trying to be positive even in situations where events and circumstances simply don't call for it will lead to its own frustrations for the community. Let people be negative, but respond with a counter-perspective, and moderate when it calls for it.
[I love OP's use of "netizens," btw]
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That may not be what the other poster means but it could be taken that way, the Colins of the world certainly happen to think that much.
As the other place have shown, things can change fast.
With how 'normal' it is to see people hide their bigotry behind "just another opinion", it's important to be clear what we're talking about.
OP
OP
Kosma Please keep this thread about us on ResetEra, not the old forum. I understand where you're coming from but let's look forward, not back. I'm not trying to backseat mod or anything but I don't want this thread to become about something else, you know?
I'm not trying to encourage a hivemind, just a tone. I have no authority over anybody and certainly don't expect every member of the forum to say "yeah dude you're right." From talking to other members, especially during the founding of the forum, it became extremely clear to me how important this place is to people. For some members, this forum is their primary means of online interaction and its success and future are paramount to their online social life. That mindset drives me to be somewhat defensive of what this forum is and can be - I admit that. But I'm not trying to take a singular issue and turn it into another kind.
The reason I used the lootbox example is because it's a current event. It hung one of our threads on the front page of r/gaming for the first time. It's something a lot of us are talking about and there are lots of threads about it. I think we can at least agree that this is one of the first big news stories that has taken the forum by storm because of how massively proliferated the discussion has become throughout the hobby and the internet in general. So what I mean to say about "being defined" by this incident is more about our reaction to it, how we carry on from it, and what lasting effects these conversations will have on the community.
We are not a hivemind - you're right. We are never going to move forward in simultaneous step. But every community has rules, goals, and mission statements. Every community has a tone and a central intention and this forum especially was founded on certain principles. My thread is a reaction thread, sure, but it's also a call to just keep this forum's intended spirit in mind as we continue to grow and grow.
I made this thread because I like talking to members. I like communicating with them and hearing their opinions and taking part in the meta-formation of the community itself. I hope you'll forgive my indulgence.
I'm not trying to encourage a hivemind, just a tone. I have no authority over anybody and certainly don't expect every member of the forum to say "yeah dude you're right." From talking to other members, especially during the founding of the forum, it became extremely clear to me how important this place is to people. For some members, this forum is their primary means of online interaction and its success and future are paramount to their online social life. That mindset drives me to be somewhat defensive of what this forum is and can be - I admit that. But I'm not trying to take a singular issue and turn it into another kind.
The reason I used the lootbox example is because it's a current event. It hung one of our threads on the front page of r/gaming for the first time. It's something a lot of us are talking about and there are lots of threads about it. I think we can at least agree that this is one of the first big news stories that has taken the forum by storm because of how massively proliferated the discussion has become throughout the hobby and the internet in general. So what I mean to say about "being defined" by this incident is more about our reaction to it, how we carry on from it, and what lasting effects these conversations will have on the community.
We are not a hivemind - you're right. We are never going to move forward in simultaneous step. But every community has rules, goals, and mission statements. Every community has a tone and a central intention and this forum especially was founded on certain principles. My thread is a reaction thread, sure, but it's also a call to just keep this forum's intended spirit in mind as we continue to grow and grow.
I made this thread because I like talking to members. I like communicating with them and hearing their opinions and taking part in the meta-formation of the community itself. I hope you'll forgive my indulgence.
My first forum was Gamefaqs. I like being in a place where I can talk games without constantly being talked down to (sometimes just for the sake of talking down).
Anyways
My advice to this, just think a little before you post, and remember other people have feelings too. Cheesy advice, but golden.
I've yet to have a negative encounter here; it took me forever to actually see a warning/ban (so much so that I almost went hunting for one to see what the red bar looked like :P). The closest I've come is people obfuscating through bad counter-examples and endless "but look over here too! Not there!" and sticking their heads in the sand when anyone tried to be honest about things. I don't think that was done in bad faith so much as just apologism for an oft-attacked art form. Sometimes I wish both its attackers and defenders would realize problematic content does not mean content that must be expunged and removed from this earth. Then we could actually talk about it.
I held NeoGaf (and consequently) ResetEra on a higher standard than most common forums. I have been disappointed multiple times about how the same tendencies for exaggeration and hyperbole that you see in similar forums persist in a similar number of people.
Alas, I think it is really an internet problem, so there's nothing to do about it but try to take all the good content and ignore the bad.
Alas, I think it is really an internet problem, so there's nothing to do about it but try to take all the good content and ignore the bad.
The only way it could be taken like that is if your reading comprehension is poor.
OP
OP
I tried to make it very clear in my OP that this isn't what I was suggesting. I am not telling people to not have fun with big news or discouraging reaction threads. I hope that is not how it reads.
This is a good philosophy to adopt going forward. I think everyone can benefit from taking a step back and figuring out when it's a good time to chime in and consider how you go about it. I understand it can hard seeing everyone praise something you didn't like and feel the urge to be a bit snarky. Likewise it's easy to feel prosecuted when you think someone's being overly critical towards something that may be important to you and wanna lash out a bit. It ain't pretty, but that's kind of the nature of the internet and the way the human psyche filters its contents. Stating something as "objectively x" is always gonna get under the skin of people who disagree.
So for me, good online interaction has always been a matter of learning how to present your thoughts, not jumping into topics you personally don't care about or have little to contribute to, and making good use of ignore or block buttons to tailor the content you see to be more thoughtful and worthwhile. And era has been pretty good with this, but sometimes it feels like certain things are inescapable.
So for me, good online interaction has always been a matter of learning how to present your thoughts, not jumping into topics you personally don't care about or have little to contribute to, and making good use of ignore or block buttons to tailor the content you see to be more thoughtful and worthwhile. And era has been pretty good with this, but sometimes it feels like certain things are inescapable.
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The point where this controversy made me lose my cool was not so much the practice itself (which I will admit, from a selfish point of view, barely affects me as my relationship with most AAA games and shooters specifically is pretty much nonexistent), but the attempt by pubs to shift blame to devs, and especially how a lot of people ate it up with a smug "I knew it" without so much as asking for proof or extending devs the benefit of the doubt after decades of horror stories. It hit home as a dev myself, and I don't think there'll be any point in history where piling shit on overworked and underpaid game devs on top of all they have to endure won't strike a nerve.
In my eyes you've always been the very definition of a gentle poster; I don't think I've ever seen you lose your manners, even when it was obvious you felt very strongly about an issue. My command of English isn't deft enough that I can put this into words without sounding a bit corny, but I consider you to be the quintessential example that we all should aspire to be as members of a forum.
I myself am positively vitriolic both here and in real life, much as I try to rein it in. My lack of patience is one of my biggest defects (which is saying quite a bit), or so most of my acquaintances tend to tell me.
In my eyes you've always been the very definition of a gentle poster; I don't think I've ever seen you lose your manners, even when it was obvious you felt very strongly about an issue. My command of English isn't deft enough that I can put this into words without sounding a bit corny, but I consider you to be the quintessential example that we all should aspire to be as members of a forum.
I myself am positively vitriolic both here and in real life, much as I try to rein it in. My lack of patience is one of my biggest defects (which is saying quite a bit), or so most of my acquaintances tend to tell me.
What degree of bigotry and racism do you think we should accept?
Old-fashioned racism? Diet racism? Just-a-joke-breh-racism? Racism with a ;) attached?
I think this place is currently healthy and the moderation is as strict as it needs to be. I have confidence in the people running this forum that bigots won't last long so I'm not worried.
Don't misunderstand, I'm perfectly ok with the moderation as it is now from what I've seen.
Things can change fast but I trust that the team here is open enough to provide the best kind of environment for anyone but bigots to express themselves freely.
The first part of your post makes it seem like while you say that you aren't telling people that they shouldn't do it, you actually don't want it to happen because it can lead to broader problems. That part I don't really agree with. A good meltdown thread is fun and usually confined to that thread as long as moderation is being handled correctly. Which so far it has been. There's room for both civil discussion and hype fueled meltdowns. Hopefully we can retain a balance.
This forum has been a treat each day. It's very much alive, and for the most part headed in the light of positivity.
It can be very tempting to jump on the bandwagon of hate, tarring down aspects of the industry that's commonly undesired and such. It's a lot more encouraging to see a thread that reads "[Aspect] what are better approaches to this?" as opposed to "This [Aspect] is no good at all". I love for this forum to continue being that place people come to brainstorm industry solutions instead of ripping on them, and by all means we can always get better at this.
Good post.
It can be very tempting to jump on the bandwagon of hate, tarring down aspects of the industry that's commonly undesired and such. It's a lot more encouraging to see a thread that reads "[Aspect] what are better approaches to this?" as opposed to "This [Aspect] is no good at all". I love for this forum to continue being that place people come to brainstorm industry solutions instead of ripping on them, and by all means we can always get better at this.
Good post.
The thing is, the first week of Era was bliss, as it was primarily people who knew what they did and did not want. Now that the floodgates are open, it has already gotten fairly bad in some places. Dumb hot takes, drive by shitposting, it is already here. All we can do is hope the mods are quick to snuff that kind of stuff out.
I can get behind your idea OP. The inflammatory nature of a lot of threads creates a focus on *outrage*. With that comes a dynamic between people that's outright toxic.
Being concious of that can help everybody avoid the rabble rousing that's slowly become the norm in the industry.
Being concious of that can help everybody avoid the rabble rousing that's slowly become the norm in the industry.
User warned: be civil, do not attack other posters
Thanks for calling me and my friends fascists, you fucking dimwit
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Unless the moderators step in I don't think anything is going to change.
People are here because of the owner getting #metoo'd and the mods couldn't handle the trademark dog-piling from the OT community.
Fireworker's "Story Time" posts are some of my favorites, always a great read.
OP
OP
What I am really trying to say is what YOU are saying. My problem isn't with a fun megathread of people posting memes and extreme comments like the sky is falling. I'm talking about doing so while preventing the broader problems I discuss. It is perfectly possible and reasonable to have space for both. I think that's generally what we have right now.
The issue comes from the meltdown (and we're starting to focus too much on the semantics of what a meltdown is, which wasn't my intention) determining how other threads will go before they even begin. In the past, for example, we reached a point where we simply could not have a thread about anything related to Mass Effect because multiple arguments that were only tangentially related would overtake whatever the original topic was. An incident resulted in a prolific poster leaving the forum permanently.
We need to be able to contain and isolate our "meltdowns" and let other discussions carry on as normal. As our forum passes 30,000 members and over a million posts, I want to remind the burgeoning community that we all own what we post here and we all own the board. I want us to continue to be careful and conscious and keep the general vibe of the forum as positive and insightful versus negative and vitriolic. I felt the time to bring this up was just after our first big news story that would steer conversations for the foreseeable future.
Does that make more sense?
As everybody sometimes gets heated and may post something wrong I appreciate the warnings and smaller bans, which give you time to reflect and actually learn. Simply perma-banning somebody doesn't teach you anything outside of negativity. I for myself know that I get heated regarding specific topics because some people hold opinions that I consider destructive to discussion and the topic itself. Therefore I appreciate the less ban happy nature of this forum and the lenience it gives you in articulating your opinions.
Sidenote: Also helps for people that may not be native speaker of English and may word something the wrong way by accident. I have seen a few bans in the past that happened over issues like this.
Personal example of the "Misohawny" restaurant thread, I personally didn't know that it was a racially charged phrase from a movie that is insulting as I never came to the realization that it means "Me so horny" in a bad accent. On the old site a question regarding this probably would have gotten me banned.
Obviously means that I mostly agree with the OP. =P
I support critical, well articulated opinions that make well thought out arguments. I, myself, try to use those tools despite not being a native English speaker.
Thus critical thinking is very important and doesn't get teached enough these days.
Wow, excellent post FF! I completely agree, and I think this community has been great so far in that regard. Thanks for posting this.
By the way, I remember your epic Pokémon childhood post on the old forum that I still have bookmarked - such a good post! I still go back and read that one from time to time.
By the way, I remember your epic Pokémon childhood post on the old forum that I still have bookmarked - such a good post! I still go back and read that one from time to time.
Yes it does. To be clear, I understood what you were trying to say at first, but I was trying to make it a bit more clear in case other people thought you didn't want meltdowns to happen. I know exactly what you are talking about with the Mass Effect stuff and honestly I can see it happening with the Battlefront stuff as well if things aren't handled well. Certain situations can bleed into other threads and make discussions feel impossible.
Great post my friend, and I couldn't agree more. The civility of this site makes this a nice place to be.
I think if people take the time to look over their posts to remove accusatory and hyperbolic language and opinions, as well as personal attacks, discourse would improve greatly.
Yeah but would you like being called a fascist just because you helped moderate an internet forum? One which I might add, flourished so well that the community stuck together through thick and thin and migrated wholesale to another place when things got bad. Some real fascism there. Amirite?
I am loving this forum, but I'm seeing a lot of the same behaviors, negativity, and drive-by shitposts that were common elsewhere. I mean, everyone has their bad days/moments, but it does get tiresome. Relatively speaking though, it's been great here. Just wish folks would take the time to reread what they're about to post and think about how it might come across to others, much like how you would/should do that with emails at work, etc. Doesn't take long, and can save a lot of subsequent headaches/drama.
I don't think the rules here are unreasonable.
Threadwhining is a scourge of discussion and I'd hope the moderation were a little more strict on this, this isn't something that foster discussion.
Arguing in bad faith is also something I'm starting to have little tolerance for but the community here is relatively good to avoid this here.
Controversial topic will have its load of hyperbole and emotions running high, I have no solution to avoid that though.
1 thing for sure, this place should have NO tolerance to shitflinging, that shit kills conversations really fast.
Threadwhining is a scourge of discussion and I'd hope the moderation were a little more strict on this, this isn't something that foster discussion.
Arguing in bad faith is also something I'm starting to have little tolerance for but the community here is relatively good to avoid this here.
Controversial topic will have its load of hyperbole and emotions running high, I have no solution to avoid that though.
1 thing for sure, this place should have NO tolerance to shitflinging, that shit kills conversations really fast.
The owner couldn't handle discussion of his own misgivings, let alone meltdowns, but that's a bit offtopic.
Let's be fair, EA was voted worst company of the US multiple times in a row for a reason.
I take a lot of issue with people hogging a moral high ground for themselves in issues that aren't about morals or that don't warrant that kind of conversation.
I don't know how bad this was before, but the "I'm allowed poor discourse/an ego trip/outright being an asshole because this is an IMPORTANT ISSUE CHILDREN ARE DYING" attitude has crept up in most trending topics I've seen so far.
I definitely don't like it because, well, being toxic for a good cause is still being toxic and being toxic while being right is still being toxic. We're not here to flaunt how right we are, we're here to have conversations.
I don't know how bad this was before, but the "I'm allowed poor discourse/an ego trip/outright being an asshole because this is an IMPORTANT ISSUE CHILDREN ARE DYING" attitude has crept up in most trending topics I've seen so far.
I definitely don't like it because, well, being toxic for a good cause is still being toxic and being toxic while being right is still being toxic. We're not here to flaunt how right we are, we're here to have conversations.
Also guys, it's important to remember that if you sre a post that's just a hot-take or hyperbole to get a rise out of people---don't reply to it. Report it.
Quoting and engaging just makes it so that proper discussion can't take place when everyone is just pile-driving on one post.
How do you mean? I'm a bit lost. Examples, please.
Quoting and engaging just makes it so that proper discussion can't take place when everyone is just pile-driving on one post.
How do you mean? I'm a bit lost. Examples, please.
Do not use this thread (or any thread, really) to take potshots at ex-GAF mods, people. Not only it's unfair to them (they are not a hivemind, but individuals, many of whom worked hard to make GAF as decent as it could be), but they are posters here now, and deserve respect like any other user.
Was trying to find a gif of Steven Universe saying "story time!" and getting cozy, but my google-fu has failed me. :/
Emphasis on the bolded. I think you're both in the same page, he just wants to try to preempt explosive escalation in the future.
I didn't even know you could report a post!
(It's the icon next to the post number).
Although I agree with Finale words, it's sad that I'm already seeing this is going to turn into the "old place was bad why this place is like that", like the meme we keep seing of "this was supposed to be a reset" in a lot of threads.
At the end, Resetera is just another forum (not saying this as a bad thing), and people will act the same way they are.
This is not a place about "attoning gaf sins", this is literally a place formed from gaffers that had such a community that wanted to stay together.
At the end, Resetera is just another forum (not saying this as a bad thing), and people will act the same way they are.
This is not a place about "attoning gaf sins", this is literally a place formed from gaffers that had such a community that wanted to stay together.
Well said OP.
Let's not be the stereotype of internet echo chambers of emotion.
It's hard not to, but it's a good reminder to try and act more appropriately per situation.
Let's not be the stereotype of internet echo chambers of emotion.
It's hard not to, but it's a good reminder to try and act more appropriately per situation.
OP
OP
I wish people would stop using this thread to air their grievances about the old forum or its staff. That is not why I made this thread. This thread is meant to be forward-looking. It's about us, the people who are here now, and what we want the community to be. This was never intended to be a springboard for backhanded nostalgia towards how things were.
One of the central messages in my OP is that we should let go, move on, and not accumulate infinite baggage that affects how we participate in unrelated threads. We are failing in this very thread.
Don't make me post more pictures of people holding hands.
Edit: Thank you Morrigan
One of the central messages in my OP is that we should let go, move on, and not accumulate infinite baggage that affects how we participate in unrelated threads. We are failing in this very thread.
Don't make me post more pictures of people holding hands.
Edit: Thank you Morrigan