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Goodlifr

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,888
The fact that the parents are reaching out to the Pope kind of sums up the situation. Doctors have done what they can and they've gotten many opinions on the matter.
The whole "prays" thing is just weird, IMHO of course.

Surely if you believe that God can save him, you also believe that it's God that caused this in the first place?
Or does God only do good things when asked and the bad is nothing to do with him.

Anyway, sorry, thread derailed there.


Horribly horribly sad situation, feel for everyone involved, can't even begin to imagine how hard it is. But you've got to listen to the experts.
 

Gibson

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,271
There's a certain irony that I imagine a good percentage of 'Alfies Army' are unemployed mumpers or at best your average working class person who would be absolutely fucked without the NHS.
 

Tamath

Member
Oct 31, 2017
747
Vienna, Austria
This case, for me, went from tragic to something that is really pissing me off.

I don't have kids and I imagine it must be unbearably painful for the parents, but their kid is essentially a doll with a heartbeat. I presume he's only still breathing as the brainstem handles that, but the rest is simply gone. All Italy can offer is also palliative care, there is sadly no miracle cure. As painful as it might be for them though, the father has increasingly made the situation all about him and not his son. Now a rent-a-mob has been incited to disrupt the hospital by blocking ambulances and abusing the staff, which is endangering the other sick children in the hospital who, unlike Alfie, might actually get better.

The cherry on the shit cake is the American Conservatives exploiting the whole sad situation to demonise the NHS and "socialist healthcare". That really boiled my piss as I read about it this morning: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...d-cruz?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

From the appeal currently being heard:

Breaking: Court told Tom Evans began private prosecution to have three names doctors charged with conspiracy to murder yesterday. Papers were served on doctors yesterday.

Paul Diamond, barrister for #AlfieEvans' dad Tom Evans, admits he is "clutching at straws" but insists there are "no hostilities towards the NHS".
Judge responds: "That simply doesn't square" with conspiracy to commit murder allegations.


Absolutely disgusting from Tom Evans.

If true, holy fuck. I didn't think it could get even worse
 
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Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
The way hangers on are behaving outside the hospital is a disgrace. Threatening staff doing their jobs is simply uncalled for.

However, until you are a parent for real, you simply cannot understand the pain his parents are suffering through. The issue as I see it is a) he's not be diagnosed definitively with anything b) he's still somewhat responsive to things or appears to be at least he smiles (albeit likely involuntarily) and can open his eyes.

Clearly its easy to rationally say a child who since 7 months has been in a semi-vegetative state with an undiagnosed neurological condition is not going to pull through and survive. But his parents simply won't and can't think like that.

ANY parent who sees the picture of him sleeping in his mothers arms from yesterday will instantly imagine their own child there in that position and even just imaging it is unbearable pain. Living through it must be....unspeakably difficult.

The parents deserve every sympathy and piece of understanding possible here. Sadly they aren't always getting that, which is a shame.
 

Dan Thunder

Member
Nov 2, 2017
14,147
The issue as I see it is a) he's not be diagnosed definitively with anything b) he's still somewhat responsive to things or appears to be at least he smiles (albeit likely involuntarily) and can open his eyes.

a) It doesn't have a name but it's been clearly identified as hugely degenerative to the point where the medical team have stated what pretty much all the white matter in his brain has been destroyed, in essence the thing that makes you, you is no longer there.

b) As you say it's all involuntary and any reactions are as such. They're not made through a conscious effort of will unfortunately.

The problem is that a lot of people view the issue as you state in your points (not that I'm saying those are your views) in that they see a headline and form their views from that. They think it's not diagnosed so it might be curable, he moves and responds to stimuli so he must be lucid. Sadly though that's not the case. The boy is, to all intents and purposes just a shell now, their son has already gone and all that's left is to let his body pass on peacefully.

It's horrific and is something no parent should ever have to go through but I just hope at some point they realise they would be better being with their son for whatever time he has left.
 

King_Moc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,136
The cherry on the shit cake is the American Conservatives exploiting the whole sad situation to demonise the NHS and "socialist healthcare". That really boiled my piss as I read about it this morning: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...d-cruz?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Saw loads of people doing this shit last night, even going into non related Facebook stories with their bullshit.

However, until you are a parent for real, you simply cannot understand the pain his parents are suffering through. The issue as I see it is a) he's not be diagnosed definitively with anything b) he's still somewhat responsive to things or appears to be at least he smiles (albeit likely involuntarily) and can open his eyes.

Clearly its easy to rationally say a child who since 7 months has been in a semi-vegetative state with an undiagnosed neurological condition is not going to pull through and survive. But his parents simply won't and can't think like that.

ANY parent who sees the picture of him sleeping in his mothers arms from yesterday will instantly imagine their own child there in that position and even just imaging it is unbearable pain. Living through it must be....unspeakably difficult.

The parents deserve every sympathy and piece of understanding possible here. Sadly they aren't always getting that, which is a shame.

This is exactly why the decision has been taken out of their hands. They have no rationality. If anything, theyre harming their child more by refusing to let go. And in creating their own army, they're harming their country. My sympathy has long gone for them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,159
China
The way hangers on are behaving outside the hospital is a disgrace. Threatening staff doing their jobs is simply uncalled for.

However, until you are a parent for real, you simply cannot understand the pain his parents are suffering through. The issue as I see it is a) he's not be diagnosed definitively with anything b) he's still somewhat responsive to things or appears to be at least he smiles (albeit likely involuntarily) and can open his eyes.

Clearly its easy to rationally say a child who since 7 months has been in a semi-vegetative state with an undiagnosed neurological condition is not going to pull through and survive. But his parents simply won't and can't think like that.

ANY parent who sees the picture of him sleeping in his mothers arms from yesterday will instantly imagine their own child there in that position and even just imaging it is unbearable pain. Living through it must be....unspeakably difficult.

The parents deserve every sympathy and piece of understanding possible here. Sadly they aren't always getting that, which is a shame.

I'm a parent and I disagree. Playing the "You wouldn't understand because your not a parent card" is so played out and assuming that others here are not parents.
 

danowat

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,783
What are the parents hoping to achieve?
What can they realistically expect to achieve?, the end game remains the same whatever happens, I can understand the pain of what they are going through, but the demonization of the NHS and the staff of Alder Hay isn't the right thing to do at all, and the formation of a group that are actively abusing the staff of the hospital is sickening.
 
Oct 27, 2017
979
The way hangers on are behaving outside the hospital is a disgrace. Threatening staff doing their jobs is simply uncalled for.

However, until you are a parent for real, you simply cannot understand the pain his parents are suffering through. The issue as I see it is a) he's not be diagnosed definitively with anything b) he's still somewhat responsive to things or appears to be at least he smiles (albeit likely involuntarily) and can open his eyes.

Clearly its easy to rationally say a child who since 7 months has been in a semi-vegetative state with an undiagnosed neurological condition is not going to pull through and survive. But his parents simply won't and can't think like that.

ANY parent who sees the picture of him sleeping in his mothers arms from yesterday will instantly imagine their own child there in that position and even just imaging it is unbearable pain. Living through it must be....unspeakably difficult.

The parents deserve every sympathy and piece of understanding possible here. Sadly they aren't always getting that, which is a shame.

Regardless of whether you are a parent or not, when you are told by every medical professional that there is a 0.0% chance of any recovery, and when you have seen the scans showing that 70% of his brain has dissolved into water, there comes a point when you should accept the inevitable and do what is best for the child. Taking this to the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court numerous times was ridiculous. Raising absurd arguments in court, such as Alfie's brain may regenerate, is ridiculous. Filing private prosecution papers against the Doctors for 'conspiracy to murder' is ridiculous. Their aim of getting Alfie to Rome would achieve nothing as even their medical staff have stated that they could not cure or treat him. They would therefore be subjecting their weak and ill child to such an ordeal for nothing at all, except to make them feel better.

Furthermore, the parents have actively manipulated and stoked the fires of hate against the NHS by posting pictures on social media maing it appear that a comatose and vegetated Alfie is hugging his mother and by the father making vitriolic posts on social media.

Then there is the complete circus of uninformed scallies, 'Alfies Army', that have no idea what the situation is. You only need to watch the interviews were they are saying that the government should let him 'go to Italy to get the cure' to see that these are morons. Alfie has 0% chance of recovery and all doctors have agreed that all that is left is EOL care, yet these morons outside are screaming 'BABY KILLER' and 'MURDERERS' to the medical staff trying to care for Alfie and other sick children. Absolutely disgusting.

I feel so sorry for Alfie for his condition, and for the fact that his parents and the morons outside have turned his life and his last days into an absolute circus and shambles.
 
OP
OP
Norwegian_Imposter

Norwegian_Imposter

Circumventing a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,757
Oh wow I checked out the "official" Alfie Evans facebook page. The parents are being insane now.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,483
Well this is a new take.

TaI66G9.png
We can't ban guns that are used in school shootings because we need them to ensure that the socialised healthcare we oppose is used to keep brain dead children alive indefinitely.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,696
The way hangers on are behaving outside the hospital is a disgrace. Threatening staff doing their jobs is simply uncalled for.

However, until you are a parent for real, you simply cannot understand the pain his parents are suffering through. The issue as I see it is a) he's not be diagnosed definitively with anything b) he's still somewhat responsive to things or appears to be at least he smiles (albeit likely involuntarily) and can open his eyes.

a) He's been generally diagnosed with a 'degenerative condition which is patterned by mitochondrial malfunction in the brain itself'.

b) The Doctors have said there is very little muscle control outside of the uncontrolled spasms, which are unchecked despite the medication he's receiving.

I'd agree with you on the Parental aspect, and if you're able to get BBC iPlayer, looking up one of the episodes of 'Hospital' which focusses on Paeds, and just how 'involved' parents can get; I'd be physically intimidated if a parent got in my face while I was trying to administer to their child.

The episode is here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0b05y8n/hospital-series-3-episode-4
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
Regardless of whether you are a parent or not, when you are told by every medical professional that there is a 0.0% chance of any recovery, and when you have seen the scans showing that 70% of his brain has dissolved into water, there comes a point when you should accept the inevitable and do what is best for the child. Taking this to the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court numerous times was ridiculous. Raising absurd arguments in court, such as Alfie's brain may regenerate, is ridiculous. Filing private prosecution papers against the Doctors for 'conspiracy to murder' is ridiculous. Their aim of getting Alfie to Rome would achieve nothing as even their medical staff have stated that they could not cure or treat him. They would therefore be subjecting their weak and ill child to such an ordeal for nothing at all, except to make them feel better.

Furthermore, the parents have actively manipulated and stoked the fires of hate against the NHS by posting pictures on social media maing it appear that a comatose and vegetated Alfie is hugging his mother and by the father making vitriolic posts on social media.

Then there is the complete circus of uninformed scallies, 'Alfies Army', that have no idea what the situation is. You only need to watch the interviews were they are saying that the government should let him 'go to Italy to get the cure' to see that these are morons. Alfie has 0% chance of recovery and all doctors have agreed that all that is left is EOL care, yet these morons outside are screaming 'BABY KILLER' and 'MURDERERS' to the medical staff trying to care for Alfie and other sick children. Absolutely disgusting.

I feel so sorry for Alfie for his condition, and for the fact that his parents and the morons outside have turned his life and his last days into an absolute circus and shambles.

I'm not saying I agree with their overall position or what they've done. I'm saying they deserve compassion rather than condemnation. I feel their pain. As human beings that should be our first thought in my view.

It is much more difficult to be rational as a parent, I've experienced this. I suspect deep down they feel they've backed themselves into a corner but have to keep going. I feel for them, desperately feel for them.
 

Pyramid Head

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,850
The mob of cunts outside the hospital don't give a shit about the child, nor any of the other kids inside there whose lives they are risking every day they continue to cause disruption. My girlfriend works for the blood and transplant service and one of their vans was unable to make a delivery to Alder Hey because of these vile, attention seeking little pricks. They remind me of the same locals who decided to ram-raid shops, set fires and smash windows in the wake of the Mark Duggan shooting a few years back, a man whose name I would bet none of them remember, if they ever knew at all. It will be the same 12 months from now when they can't quite get Alfie Evans name off the tip of their tongues but clearly remember the laughs they had 'proper frontin' all the fukkin posh nob dokterz an' tha'.

Same for those posters on the Facebook page. Christ. You're going to need the NHS one day you stupid twats.
 
Oct 27, 2017
979
I'm not saying I agree with their overall position or what they've done. I'm saying they deserve compassion rather than condemnation. I feel their pain. As human beings that should be our first thought in my view.

It is much more difficult to be rational as a parent, I've experienced this. I suspect deep down they feel they've backed themselves into a corner but have to keep going. I feel for them, desperately feel for them.

I did sympathise with them initially. Then they started stirring up tons of shit, accusing the hospital, doctors and nurses of 'conspiracy to murder' and invoked a mob outside to hurl abuse at staff and upset other sick children in there. The continuous legal action that they pursued was obviously redundant as they lost every hearing and have gone through seven sets of solicitors. They went to court and made absurd and bizarre arguments that had no merit what so ever. Even when the Courts decided against them they continued to make numerous appeals whilst spewing vitriol against the NHS. They have done all this to make themselves feel better, and have forgotten what is in the best interest of Alfie. He is braindead, suffering regular epileptic-like seizures and has a 0% chance of recovery and only sufficient brainstem activity to regulate his heart beat and temperature control. Although it is unlikely he can feel anything, the medical professionals have not ruled out that he may still have some senses so it possible he is still suffering and feeling pain. It is clearly not in Alfies best interest to drag this out and he should be allowed to pass-away with dignity, but instead his last days have turned into an absolute shambles and media circus because of his parents and 'Alfie's army'.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,367
I can't bloody stand that this isn't resolved by now, and that people as far away as bloody America are attacking doctors, nurses, and the hospital itself.

Christ imagine if people on this crusade were fighting for a better Health service then this no hope case. Of course it's tragic, of course the parents deserve sympathy, but you can't let grief twist you into these caricatures. What are they even fighting for at this point?
 

Praxis

Sausage Tycoon
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,282
UK
Desperately sad for the child and his family, but you just can't win an argument with this level of dumb people.
 
Nov 18, 2017
2,932
I dont get why police arent dispersing them or arresting those disrupting hospital access and staff. A hospital is not an appropriate place for a peaceful protest let alone a rabble.
 

ahoyhoy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,320
So the kid's brain is just water?

It seems like that should mean he's clinically dead already. Seems the long term solution here is that we need to redefine what it means to be "alive".
 

King_Moc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,136
So the kid's brain is just water?

It seems like that should mean he's clinically dead already. Seems the long term solution here is that we need to redefine what it means to be "alive".

The parts at the base of the brain that control the subliminal functions, such as heart beat and breathing are still there. The grey matter that contains the mind and all of that stuff is gone. He's effectively had a lobotomy on the entire thing.
 

ahoyhoy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,320
The parts at the base of the brain that control the subliminal functions, such as heart beat and breathing are still there. The grey matter that contains the mind and all of that stuff is gone. He's effectively had a lobotomy on the entire thing.

Yeah, and I suppose the issue with using brain function to determine death would be the question "how much of your brain needs to be functional to still be considered alive?"

This instance seems obvious, but others might not be.

Whatever the case, the traditional reliance on heart beat is obviously outdated and needs to be changed.
 

danowat

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,783
The parts at the base of the brain that control the subliminal functions, such as heart beat and breathing are still there. The grey matter that contains the mind and all of that stuff is gone. He's effectively had a lobotomy on the entire thing.
SMH at the R2 phone in.

Guy from Christian fellowship saying Alfies cognitive functions are improving, where as the medical experts are disputing it 100%, I know who I'd believe.

Guy on the phone saying that it's the hospitals fault he's in a vegetative state, as he wasn't like that when he went in, and banging on about vaccinations.

It seems the biggest sticking point is the parents "right to decide" what happens to their child, and the "state" having control, I've know of a ton of cases where the parents are deciding to mistreat their children, and the state has to step in, it happens a lot, for good reason, there has to come a point where the child's welfare takes priority over the parents "right to decide".
 

Y2Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,931
This is an odd question but what regulates growth? With no brain, does he continue to develop and grow? Or do cells develop autonomously without instruction from the central nervous system?
 

liquidtmd

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,139
I dont get why police arent dispersing them or arresting those disrupting hospital access and staff. A hospital is not an appropriate place for a peaceful protest let alone a rabble.

Police have to proceed with caution. Any hint of dispersing or arresting 'peaceful protest' (I use the term lightly since it's a fucking carnival that could kick off any time), then you'll make them martyrs and the press will eat it up.

I made a bad error of reading some Twitter comments last night though....someone was literally saying 'fuck da hospital for searching all our bags, the paranoid fucks so we can't bring Alfie da cuddly toys' when explicit violent threats have been made loudly to the staff
 

King_Moc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,136
SMH at the R2 phone in.

Guy from Christian fellowship saying Alfies cognitive functions are improving, where as the medical experts are disputing it 100%, I know who I'd believe.

Guy on the phone saying that it's the hospitals fault he's in a vegetative state, as he wasn't like that when he went in, and banging on about vaccinations.

It seems the biggest sticking point is the parents "right to decide" what happens to their child, and the "state" having control, I've know of a ton of cases where the parents are deciding to mistreat their children, and the state has to step in, it happens a lot, for good reason, there has to come a point where the child's welfare takes priority over the parents "right to decide".

I hope the host of the show disputed what they were saying? I feel like I should be able to assume that, but the BBC's insistence on giving bullshit equal coverage to facts makes me worry that they didn't.
 

danowat

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,783
I hope the host of the show disputed what they were saying? I feel like I should be able to assume that, but the BBC's insistence on giving bullshit equal coverage to facts makes me worry that they didn't.
That's not Jeremy Vines style, he just winds them up and let's them go and plays devils advocate.
 

Stuart444

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,074
Just curious but at what point does the Alfie Army shit go from 'protesting' to inciting violence. I mean disrupting staff trying to get to the hospital already seems like a dangerous enough thing (endangering the kids in the hospital)

Basically what I don't get is why is this 'army' allowed to be more or less unchecked, disrupting cars, etc outside the hospital. Feels like it should be illegal but idk...
 

Mino

Member
Oct 28, 2017
50
The amount of misinformation and conspiracies surrounding all this is staggering. At work yesterday I heard that the doctors were going to kill Alfie via lethal injection but had to stop because his brain had started to repair itself. I've believed some dumb stuff in my life but this is ridiculous.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
6,367
This is an odd question but what regulates growth? With no brain, does he continue to develop and grow? Or do cells develop autonomously without instruction from the central nervous system?

I read something about him putting on weight that's normal for someone their age, so I guess something is going right with his metabolism. I thinking the consensus is that higher functions aren't there, but a lot of the stuff regulating regular bodily processes are.
 
Oct 27, 2017
979
The amount of misinformation and conspiracies surrounding all this is staggering. At work yesterday I heard that the doctors were going to kill Alfie via lethal injection but had to stop because his brain had started to repair itself. I've believed some dumb stuff in my life but this is ridiculous.

Which country are you from, if you don't mind me asking? That conspiracy sounds like something that would not originate in the UK - Doctors wouldn't use a 'lethal injection' in this country if they wanted him to die, but would just give him enough morphine to let him slip away. That is how it is often done (in my experiences of family death) at the conclusion of EOL care, as it is more merciful then letting the patient struggle on desperately when no recovery Is possible.
 

Empyrean Cocytus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,800
Upstate NY
As a parent myself, believe you me, I would do whatever it takes so that I don't have to bury my child. If there is a chance, no matter the cost, I'll take it.
 

danowat

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,783
Which country are you from, if you don't mind me asking? That conspiracy sounds like something that would not originate in the UK - Doctors wouldn't use a 'lethal injection' in this country if they wanted him to die, but would just give him enough morphine to let him slip away. That is how it is often done (in my experiences of family death) at the conclusion of EOL care, as it is more merciful then letting the patient struggle on desperately when no recovery Is possible.
The guy on Radio 2 said that (there was something in the court order) stated they were going to use the same drug "we" sold to America to kill prisoners (midazolam?) to kill Alfie, so that particular conspiracy seems to have it's roots in the UK.