"The easily offended deserve to be."
I actually agree with you otherwise.
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Amy Hennig: People ask for linear Story-Based Games but aren’t necessarily buying them
- Thread starter Soulymist
- Start date
"The easily offended deserve to be."
I actually agree with you otherwise.
If that's what they (as in, the industry) truly believe (and I think they do), then they're tackling the problem through the wrong end.
If you can't sell your games as much as you need to justify the costs, then how a about you target more reasonable costs?
Many solo-oriented games still sell well enough and were adequately budgeted so that they turn out a profit in the end.
Gotta go back to the drawing board and revive that "double-A" space. That's where those beloved linear story-based games came from in the first place.
If you can't sell your games as much as you need to justify the costs, then how a about you target more reasonable costs?
Many solo-oriented games still sell well enough and were adequately budgeted so that they turn out a profit in the end.
Gotta go back to the drawing board and revive that "double-A" space. That's where those beloved linear story-based games came from in the first place.
going to indie-style development practices isn't going to improve that though. On the contrary.
In fact, service games are the most stable games to be working on. As you have a continous revenue stream and aren't quite as deadline bound.
Playstation has always been popular exactly because it appeals to a broad spectrum of tastes and Sony has been pretty good at filling any gaps that third party publishers leave including narrow SP experiences. On top of that, Sony really cares about games that look good graphically in order to advertise the PS4 better and there are no better games to show that than SP games.
You have to bring your A game with story driven experiences. If you put out something that is shitty or generic, it's not going to sell well. Open world games tend to get an extra push of sales as some suck up anything open world, even if it's terrible. Some players are getting burnout from open world games though, and you can expect more and more not to actually complete an open world game if they don't like it. That might eventually turn into some gamers stopping blindly buying everything open world just because it's open world. You're supposed to buy games to enjoy playing them, not just buy them because "omg a review said this game has 100+ hours of collectathons! VALUE FOR MONEY!". Yeah, how about trying value for enjoyment? What is the point spending 100 hours slogging through something you are not enjoying just to shout online about how your $60 took up weeks of your leisure time?
There's also the reality of SP games need to be happy making a lot of money, rather than crying about Minecraft/PUBG/COD money. You're not going to make as much, but if your publisher is happy with some projects just making them rich, rather than every project having to make it rain soo hard 65 yachts can be purchased, per boardroom executive, you should be good to go after some IP diversity.
EA aren't exactly on the forefront of being happy with some projects making them rich, considering everything is being rammed with lootboxes, MTs, and GaaS'd out the ass.
There's also the reality of SP games need to be happy making a lot of money, rather than crying about Minecraft/PUBG/COD money. You're not going to make as much, but if your publisher is happy with some projects just making them rich, rather than every project having to make it rain soo hard 65 yachts can be purchased, per boardroom executive, you should be good to go after some IP diversity.
EA aren't exactly on the forefront of being happy with some projects making them rich, considering everything is being rammed with lootboxes, MTs, and GaaS'd out the ass.
But how much of that can be attributed to being bundled with consoles. It came with my PS4 and it's still left in shrink wrap.
It already has.
People point to charts, but those in the top 10 are the biggest of the biggest, in the MP market. For every PUBG there are dozens of Lawbreakers, and I've lost count of the number of titles trying to capture the Rocket League magic.
Fact is even the smaller SP titles mentioned in this thread like Yakuza and Nier are doing enough to generate profits and sequels. I'm pretty sure most of the MP titles that hit the market are one and done.
It's telling that you have to arbitrarily restrict this to the console space to make this argument. If you look at the audience that actively buys and plays games on platforms suited for storytelling (I.e. subtract the enormous number of people who just play mobile games), even they are overwhelmingly playing Call of Duty, Counterstrike, PUBG, etc.
Storytelling in games is a niche that's carried by a handful of developers that became big a decade ago, and is only going to get smaller.
Henning has always been a bit of a hater. I think she should scale down, and work on very small budget games.
What sort of games? And how exactly does that sold the problems she is talking about?
Anyone ever gonna explain why someone that likes to play video games would watch someone else play a video game? A single player game at that. I am slowly somewhat coming around to understanding why people watch competitive games, but seriously people sit on YouTube and twitch to watch others play story based games? What? Seriously why? Different strokes...
Most of those articles defending single player games point out open world games, when the discussion is talking about linear story driven games. Sure, they point out games like Wolfenstein 2, but Bethesda's open world games do way better than Wolfenstein 2 did, let alone Dishonored 2. How many versions of Skyrim did Bethesda release this year? And also, Bethesda is making a multiplayer online shooter themselves so I'm not convinced they're a great example of "AAA linear story driven games are here to stay!"
I also don't like the implication that I'm trying to defend EA because I have some personal investment in them. That's unfair and and untrue, and isn't arguing in good faith. Try arguing with facts instead of pulling that crap.
And usually the most successful movies and shows are terrible, and are all franchises and oh my god the world is going to end.
A lot of high profile single player games have not been selling well. Deus ex, dishonored 2, prey, come to mind with a bunch more as well.
That makes too much sense.
Spending more and trying to reach a wider audience is a better idea.
There is a twisted part of me that wants the industry to move totally to 'GaaS / lifestyle' games within the AAA space, so I can ignore them entirely.
I don't think her point is in any way valid however. There just aren't enough releases to prove the how the market would respond to them. Uncharteds/TLoU are nothing like Deus Ex, or Wolfenstein, or Prey, or Dishonoured, etc. Hardly anyone is making the kinds of games that Sony makes at the moment. Rise of the Tomb Raider sold great, and it wasn't even very good. I don't know how Quantum Break did, but it was XBO exclusive for a long time, and it was filled with TV style cutscenes that had a mixed reception.
Star Wars 1313 was canned, as was Hennig's game. There just aren't a lot of these games to compare.
I don't think her point is in any way valid however. There just aren't enough releases to prove the how the market would respond to them. Uncharteds/TLoU are nothing like Deus Ex, or Wolfenstein, or Prey, or Dishonoured, etc. Hardly anyone is making the kinds of games that Sony makes at the moment. Rise of the Tomb Raider sold great, and it wasn't even very good. I don't know how Quantum Break did, but it was XBO exclusive for a long time, and it was filled with TV style cutscenes that had a mixed reception.
Star Wars 1313 was canned, as was Hennig's game. There just aren't a lot of these games to compare.
Not really using the latter for evidence, I just had to say it because I can relate to the point I was making. I wouldn't doubt a large chunk of the game's success comes from being bundled.
Its stated success can possibly be misleading, and perhaps may not be the most viable example of linear story-focused games being successful. Alls I'm saying.
What boggles me the most is that those old-timers which are often recalled as awesome linear single-player experiences weren't (usually) huge "triple-A" games back in the day.
It's like they all fell into some over-inflation trap and can't see they are digging their hole even deeper instead of asking themselves if they couldn't find a way to get out of said hole.
What does this mean, lol.
Imagine that you have a really niche movie getting the same budget as a Marvel movie. You would probably agree that their expectations are unrealistic.
Clearly not as compelling as the publisher thought they would be.
I know it's just me, but I don't play multiplayer games, and I never bought, nor am interested in any of those.
How? You can't magically reduce costs. Games cost 100+ million dollars because that's how much it costs to pay hundreds of people salaries to create X hours of content at Y level of quality. You try to cut costs and you get ELEX. You get ECHO. You get low budget games which are widely dismissed by audiences. The reason why Obsidian haven't made a game like Fallout: New Vegas since Fallout: New Vegas is because you simply cannot make a game like that without a huge budget behind you. These developers don't make isometric RPGs purely because they've got some burning passion for isometric RPGs. They make them because they're the only economically viable way to make RPGs because you either go big or you go home. You can't half-ass a game like Fallout: New Vegas. You can't say, "Let's just not have voice acting." Or "Let's have 3 character models because hey, Hellblade got away with it!" Enjoy your hundreds of thousands of refunds.
I mean there's certainly demand. And if big publishers want to bail out, some other studios will come out and fill that void, bringing quality up without the pressures of big publishing.
This is why I think Hellblade was the most important game released last year, above BoTW.
Big P can keep their loot boxes, AA is flourishing and 2017 was just the beginning.
Gaming as a media is maturing, we will have our Fast & Furiouses but we will also have our Moonlights.
This is why I think Hellblade was the most important game released last year, above BoTW.
Big P can keep their loot boxes, AA is flourishing and 2017 was just the beginning.
Gaming as a media is maturing, we will have our Fast & Furiouses but we will also have our Moonlights.
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Games are expensive these days. If I can buy single player only, $60 game and beat it in a weekend, then I just don't find very much value in that, especially when I can buy a game like Overwatch or Rainbow six and play it for years.
What does ERA think about publishers banning the streaming of single player games for at least the first year of release? Maybe just allow certain sections to be recorded for those that review games? It's obvious that streaming is a big contributor to people not buying sp games.
They need to start making games where selling 2 millions of them is a brilliant success instead of a failure.
Scale down teams, scale down graphical targets, scale down everything and produce more.
A game doesn't need to look like the 2018 equivalent of what Crysis looked at launch to be good and sell and neither do they need this big names voice actors to do B tier movie cutscenes.
Scale down teams, scale down graphical targets, scale down everything and produce more.
A game doesn't need to look like the 2018 equivalent of what Crysis looked at launch to be good and sell and neither do they need this big names voice actors to do B tier movie cutscenes.
As long as you can recoup your costs, why is that a problem?
Not all games need to be played by everyone.
If the furore over Persona 5's streaming restrictions are anything to go by then I assume the wider gaming community wouldn't take it very well.
Maybe it's just me, then. I've never watched someone play a single player game online if I have even a passing interest in possibly purchasing it in the future.
I have a Steam library full of linear story games.
Here's the actual issue: We have too many games to play, all of them demanding more and more of our time to "complete" them. With only so many hours in the day, I'm pretty sure a lot of gamers are straight up backlogged. I still have games from 2016 in shrink wrap and Steam games older than that which have never been installed or played.
It's not that we don't want more linear story games; we're just having a hard time fitting them in with the deluge of other SP and time-draining MP games...or justifying buying them at launch given all the other games we need to play.
I have a Steam library full of linear story games.
Here's the actual issue: We have too many games to play, all of them demanding more and more of our time to "complete" them. With only so many hours in the day, I'm pretty sure a lot of gamers are straight up backlogged. I still have games from 2016 in shrink wrap and Steam games older than that which have never been installed or played.
It's not that we don't want more linear story games; we're just having a hard time fitting them in with the deluge of other SP and time-draining MP games...or justifying buying them at launch given all the other games we need to play.
I don't think watching somebody play a game is a bad thing, but choosing to watch somebody play a game rather than purchase/play yourself is bizarre.
My 10 year old will watch people play games on YouTube (DanTDM and Squid are favourites), but he still wants to play the game. He watched Dan complete Hello Neighbor, but can't wait to buy the game so he can experience it himself.
There aren't many examples because Devs have uniformly moved away for them for reasons I stated before. And those links were provided not to prove a definitive answer but to show the SOURCE of the conversation all went back to EA's cancellation, which even includes the quotes and do not talk about sales nor specific answers from fans about linear story based games.
I simply stated you sound like you are going to bat for EA. I didn't elaborate about personal investment. I am just pointing out that is what it seems like despite EA themselves not even expressing that same sentiment.
I feel like gamers need to get over it (and I think they eventually would). Films are banned from streaming and you don't see movie goers throwing a tantrum.
Absolutely pointless and infringing on the rights/sensibilities of consumers.
Evidence and studies are needed to backup your claim, just like for ages we kept hearing how piracy stopped lots of sales, before repeated studies showed, no, piracy doesn't. Most people who pirate were never going to buy your game anyway. Even if you cram in draconic DRM systems. Most will wait it out, or move onto pirating something else.
Focus on those/the market who will buy your game, rather than crying about "missed sales" from people you pretty much had no chance of getting a sale from anyway. Many who sit watching 100's of hours of YouTube like its an addiction aren't going to buy anyway. What some are seeking is friendship from YouTube as many of them are lonely. The main draw isn't playing a game, but feeling like their favourite YouTuber is their best buddy.
What is next? Kinect stops you playing a game on Xbox if there are multiple people in your living room watching you play it? For whatever reasons, some are just going to watch others doing things rather than having an interest doing said thing themselves. We do not require devs/publishers upping the draconic DRM to outright banning video recording for 12 months.
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Because instead of selling 200,000 copies and potentially snowballing to a major success your game dies with 10-20,000 copies sold because you couldn't afford a huge marketing budget. A vast majority of "viral success" games are sandbox "make your own fun" titles, and/or multiplayer in some capacity. This is why publishers don't chase those ostensibly "low risk, high reward" indie-style games, because the reality is that most of those games fail. Like, an overwhelming majority of those games fail.
The difference is there's an ever growing legitimate community/industry built up around streaming, unlike film streaming. It's hard to pull the plug on that. It would be easier if developers/publishers never let it get off the ground but it's too well established and accepted by the industry to just suddenly condemn it.
Well what you're saying doesn't hold. No game can be forced down people's throats even if they've seen some bundling. Especially when there are many other bundles you can acquire in order to get the console you desire. If a game is not good, it will not be bought. None of this takes away from U4's success. It is an excellent game and one of the most successful single player AAA games ever. And these days the digital purchasing ratio needs to be considered too, but we don't have that information for U4 I believe.
Also, I'm sure there are Mario Odyssey's copies still left in shrink wrap (a bundled game as well, funnily enough), just as there must be Halo 5 copies (another bundled game, oh my!). Anecdotal is anecdotal.
Games as a service seems great for monopolistic practices and bad for pretty much everyone who doesn't benefit directly from that. But then, games as a service also hasn't been around long enough among major developers to actually say they are stable. They seem just as hit or miss as any other sales practice, if I'm being honest. That said, they're also relatively new in the domain, much like ARGs. So we'll see, but at least initially I can't say I see how they're more successful (near as I can tell, it's basically just creating a different boom and bust cycle, with considerably less risk for those higher up the food chain, while the stability for everyone lower is still lacking at best).
Also, what evidence do you have that a smaller group workforce wouldn't be successful among a major developer/publisher? Near as I'm aware there's no big publisher that's tried it. Again, inertia's a powerful thing.
Unlike Naughty Dogs, most other devs don't have the luxury of:
- premium 1st party funding
- free from 30% publishing cut
- marketing budget which cost as much as the development cost
So yeah, you can keep clinging to ND games, but for how long? Are you fine with waiting 3-4 years to play their games?
Prey, Wolfenstein 2, Evil Within 2 off the top of my head.
EDIT: Dishonored 2 as well.
Sure people ask for them, but they are no longer the majority, I'm sure the people asking are still buying.....but their friends are skipping.
Are you being ironic or serious because Uncharted and TLOU literally have multiplayer with microtransactions.
I admit I just Redbox single player games. I always get free codes so I don't even end up paying anything. I've probably saved thousands of dollars.
For me, the root for all the publishers' misery on today's video game industry is that there are too many games on the market. Twenty years ago i could keep record of every single game in development for all the platforms, nowadays that seems impossible. I lost the count of how many times i heard about a game that caught my interest and a few months later i find out that it was already released months before. The number of people playing games has increased, but i feel that the number of games available is substantially higher than the average consumer can "digest".
To people asking what story-focussed games haven't sold well just look at every bethesda game in the last year.
Which is a shame because they are all ciritically well regarded.
The issue with these linear story focussed games for me is that I know they will eventually go down in price so why buy them on day 1.
I hvae a huge backlog as it is so I'll just wait a while and grab them in a sale.
That story will still be as good a few months down the line as it is on day 1.
I'm part of the problem here but I have a budget for games and want to maximise it.
Which is a shame because they are all ciritically well regarded.
The issue with these linear story focussed games for me is that I know they will eventually go down in price so why buy them on day 1.
I hvae a huge backlog as it is so I'll just wait a while and grab them in a sale.
That story will still be as good a few months down the line as it is on day 1.
I'm part of the problem here but I have a budget for games and want to maximise it.