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Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,400
Just an FYI, from a legal sense, if there is evidence that exists, it might not be disclosed yet because then there will be no "privilege" attached to it. When parties are in a lawsuit, there is a period called discovery where the parties exchange documents and are questioned on their evidence. If something is disclosed now, it will be forever available without restrictions. His lawyer(s) might simply be reviewing shit as we speak to determine what is good and what is bad.

With respect to him not apologizing, I can tell you right now that it is extremely common to include a "I didn't do it" clause in any minutes of settlement and release. Can't tell you how many times I've negotiated this in when acting for a company, and also had to explain to an individual client why it is normal. This could the basis if his lawyer instructed him not to apologize publicly.

Just giving some insight into the legal process, because this is what I would do if Joe was my client.
To be clear in this: this is what you would do in instances of accusations around sexual harassment and predatory behaviour? There wasn't an accusation of sexual assault but it's been muddied so I want to be sure we're reading right by your post, even if it's the same advice in each instance.

People have an issue around the distortion of the accusation and him falsely saying she walked it back, alongside the victim blaming. Interested to know your thoughts on whether that and the tweet were a recommendation from his lawyers, since to a lay it would seem you could deny the accusation without attempting to distort it to your fanbase?

Appreciate the input. We had input from another lawyer earlier who said they would be shocked if this ever went to a courtroom and doubted that's the hope on the part of AJ and his team. Something you align with?
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
Except the C&D is in even more bad faith, especially when Joe hasn't outright denied the entire story and actually does lend credence to parts of it.

The way I see it, the woman has a much stronger case now.
While we in the court of public opinion may rule a C&D as in bad faith it is a very customary response to this type of accusation and puts the accused in an advantageous position from PR perspective. The woman having a "stronger" case is the wrong way to look at it at this point.
 

ArjanN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,127
Except the C&D is in even more bad faith, especially when Joe hasn't outright denied the entire story and actually does lend credence to parts of it.

The way I see it, the woman has a much stronger case now.

The C&D is more directly aggressive, the police argument is just dumb given that he knows very well it would always just come down to his word versus hers, it's so obviously hollow.
 

Skulldead

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,458
User banned (1 month): dismissing concerns around sexual harassment and predatory behaviour, ignoring staff post
I am not an Angry Joe fan in the slightest.

With that said, I have been accused of something similar. This was before cellphones were like they are now. I spent time in jail, two weeks, only for them to find out she was lying. My employer had evidence of her actions towards me. I was furious, sad, lonely, and confused at the same time. I never want to feel like that again. Had it not been for my employer, I don't know what would have happened. It changed my life forever.

I begged and pleaded with the police that I did nothing wrong, but they didn't listen. I told the police that I had evidence, and they still didn't look.

I am not victim-blaming or saying Joe is innocent, but I think we should wait until things play out. As someone that has been through this, it's hard for me to choose a side until everything has been settled. The feeling of being blamed for something so serious is a blow to your soul. It's rough.

One of my best friend got similar story but with a child in 5th grade, he was a teacher in primary school, he lost everything, money, job, wife, house, everything. All that for false accusation from that little girl. It took 3 month before she told the true. It was right in the middle of the court session. Now he is not the same person he was before..... he doesn't trust anybody, pretty hard to have a serious discution with him.... Where i'm from he could pursue their parent.... but they got divorse after that event and he didn't want to add fuel to the flame. (the wife keep the girl and the father dissapear)

Must be pretty hard to hit jail for thing you haven't done. I'll wait for lawer of Joe to create proof before saying he have done it or not.

I don't want to sound like ass, but why you don't take a lawer, then go see the police to make a deposition, other then go on internet and write all that ? I mean there must be a reason ? She got reject by police ?
 

Het_Nkik

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,409
I don't want to sound like ass, but why you don't take a lawer, then go see the police to make a deposition, other then go on internet and write all that ? I mean there must be a reason ? She got reject by police ?
Did you read her story? He didn't do anything illegal (aside from briefly putting his hands on her at the bar, but most people wouldn't even think that's something to go to the police over). The story is about him being a creep, not about him sexually assaulting her.
 

stn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,609
To be clear in this: this is what you would do in instances of accusations around sexual harassment and predatory behaviour? There wasn't an accusation of sexual assault but it's been muddied so I want to be sure we're reading right by your post, even if it's the same advice in each instance.

People have an issue around the distortion of the accusation and him falsely saying she walked it back, alongside the victim blaming. Interested to know your thoughts on whether that and the tweet were a recommendation from his lawyers, since to a lay it would seem you could deny the accusation without attempting to distort it to your fanbase?

Appreciate the input. We had input from another lawyer earlier who said they would be shocked if this ever went to a courtroom and doubted that's the hope on the part of AJ and his team. Something you align with?
Yup, what I posted before this would be my general advice to a person accused of something, whether its sexual harassment, assault, or what have you. Regarding the tweet he made, I am just speculating but it is probably on the advice of his lawyer. Usually I would advise a person not to say or do anything, but this is different since Joe is a celebrity, and he basically has to do something.

Regarding the comment from another ERA lawyer - yeah, I doubt this is the type of case that would go to court. If Joe is responsible for the accusations, he will want to settle it immediately. If he is not responsible, it is still cheaper and more efficient to resolve it now than wait years for it to go to trial. There are lots of hoops one needs to go through before a trial is scheduled, so a lot of times it doesn't make sense from a cost and time perspective. For what its worth, most of the claims I pursue or defend are worth maybe $50k to $150k on average, and they basically almost never go to trial because it becomes not worth it for both parties. Mileage may vary based on jurisdiction, but I doubt the legal process is cheap anywhere.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
One of my best friend got similar story but with a child in 5th grade, he was a teacher in primary school, he lost everything, money, job, wife, house, everything. All that for false accusation from that little girl. It took 3 month before she told the true. It was right in the middle of the court session. Now he is not the same person he was before..... he doesn't trust anybody, pretty hard to have a serious discution with him.... Where i'm from he could pursue their parent.... but they got divorse after that event and he didn't want to add fuel to the flame. (the wife keep the girl and the father dissapear)

Must be pretty hard to hit jail for thing you haven't done. I'll wait for lawer of Joe to create proof before saying he have done it or not.

I don't want to sound like ass, but why you don't take a lawer, then go see the police to make a deposition, other then go on internet and write all that ? I mean there must be a reason ? She got reject by police ?
Probably because there was no assault, and being a sexual predator is something thats really hard to get a conviction for.
And yeah, people are to eager to jump to conclusions, we need to wait till the cards are on the table for a definitive decision whats going on.
(And im really not a fan of him and find him rather toxic...)
 

Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
8,852
I don't want to sound like ass, but why you don't take a lawer, then go see the police to make a deposition, other then go on internet and write all that ? I mean there must be a reason ? She got reject by police ?

Others have responded before, but he didn't do anything actionable by the police, he was "just" being a controlling creep. That of course is abhorrent and predatory behaviour and it gives some insight into how he likely treats women, but it's not illegal.
 

Malakym

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 17, 2019
361
FWIW I think Joe's a shitheel, his persona is one of machismo and toxic masculinity and I 100% believe this victim. That said, I don't think logic plays much into your stance if you're swayed by such a ridiculously egregious false equivalency. A high school fight or vending machine have fuck all to do with sexual coercion/grooming/harassment/assault/etc... That kind of nonsense would be an instant permaban if he made the comparison in reverse.
The fuck are you talking about? "Here's a story about how I was bullied years ago" vs. "Here's a story about a really creepy uncomfortable situation I was in a few years ago". How the fuck are those incomparable? This is nothing to do with saying who had it worse, it's about relating to someone about a possibly traumatic event, and showing some fucking empathy to that person.

And that's not even what I was talking about with the logic comment so maybe actually read what I said instead of wasting my fucking time?
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
Regarding the comment from another ERA lawyer - yeah, I doubt this is the type of case that would go to court. If Joe is responsible for the accusations, he will want to settle it immediately. If he is not responsible, it is still cheaper and more efficient to resolve it now than wait years for it to go to trial. There are lots of hoops one needs to go through before a trial is scheduled, so a lot of times it doesn't make sense from a cost and time perspective. For what its worth, most of the claims I pursue or defend are worth maybe $50k to $150k on average, and they basically almost never go to trial because it becomes not worth it for both parties. Mileage may vary based on jurisdiction, but I doubt the legal process is cheap anywhere.
Yeah the people saying that either side should go to court to determine "the truth" don't seem to understand that some truth and justice they saw on a TV show is not usually not a factor in an actual courtroom, lol. Neither side can predict the outcome so it would basically be mutually assured destruction. Joe is trying to scare the woman into submission with a legal threat and it may work.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,126
FWIW I think Joe's a shitheel, his persona is one of machismo and toxic masculinity and I 100% believe this victim. That said, I don't think logic plays much into your stance if you're swayed by such a ridiculously egregious false equivalency. A high school fight or vending machine have fuck all to do with sexual coercion/grooming/harassment/assault/etc... That kind of nonsense would be an instant permaban if he made the comparison in reverse.
The first equivalency has to do with how the title was presented. The idea isn't that a vending machine is equivalent to this situation, it's that the phrase "my interaction with a soda vending machine" is just as comprehensible as "my interaction with AngryJoe", the title of the original post that the thread was based on. In fact, the point is that two very different things can both work in that phrase. They're both describing an experience, and the reason AngryJoe was in the title was to specify what kind of an experience it was. The focus isn't on AngryJoe, but it's on the experience that involves him. The actor here is unstated because the whole title is a noun phrase, but you can extend it to something like "I'm going to tell you about my interaction with AngryJoe", where the actor is the speaker, the victim.

For comparison, you can't do that with the thread title. "Soda vending machine accused of sexual harassment" would be a ridiculous situation, but that's because the presentation is totally different in this title. In the thread title, AngryJoe is the focus. It's not just talking about the victim's experience. It's a passive statement where the victim isn't a major factor, as Angry Joe being accused is the action that we are focusing on.

As for a high school fight and grooming, they're both negative experiences being communicated. They're both things that could potentially have legal action involved - battery is a criminal offense, remember? - but we're talking about a situation where they aren't being framed that way. But despite these similarities, when we're dealing with sexual harassment and sexual assault specifically, there are always attempts to shift that narrative away from simply the relating of an experience into a legal threat which needs to be approached from a legalistic stance. The point there was the contrast between the reactions these situations generate, although you'd be perfectly capable of reacting the same way with one as to the other.



Bearing in mind these particular specifics, how would you do this argument in reverse? What would that look like? What is the reverse argument that uses the contrast in framing, the disparity in empathetic reaction when particular experiences are discussed, and the distortion of narrative and bullying of a party through overextention of legal ideas? I don't think you can easily provide that, because all of these things are operating in only one direction.

You said that I'd be banned if I posted the reverse, what what would that bannable post contain?
 
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Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
Most comments that are aggressive towards him are under the assumption that these accusations are true, not people taking what happened as fact and jumping on him.

I genuinely cannot understand what you are saying. What the hell lmao?

"He's getting these comments because people believe he did a bad thing, not because they think it's a fact he did a bad thing."

Like what? None of these comments are "assuming he did this, that's pretty bad." Like maybe a couple are. But by and large they are "fuck angry Joe for doing this." The hell you mean they aren't taking it as fact. That's what assuming fucking means. No one here is making theoretical assumptions. They are for all intents and purposes taking this as fact until contradicted.

What a pedantic, laughable evaluation. Fucking hell.

Say what you will about whether you think it's justified. I think evidence is against him, but this is a ridiculous evaluation.
 

4 Get!

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 8, 2019
1,326
After reading both sides' wording of events, I have a question that needs answering (one that I'm hoping there's information about out there):

What in the world was OtherJoe(she called him littleJoe) doing in the hotel room and cab?

How things are told makes it seem like he was there next to her and Angry Joe, but also at the same time nonexistent during two very crucial moments. I'm not attacking anyone or either side, I'm seriously just wondering what the hell he was doing for those two moments because it seems odd to me that he stayed absolutely quiet the whole time while next to Angry Joe and her.
 

Starseer

Banned
Apr 12, 2020
22
What damage has there even been? What damage do you see there being? He isn't a rapist or a paedophile. There is no crime here. He has his rabid fanbase who do not give a single iota of a fuck about what he might or might have not done to women & will defend him even if irrefutable proof came out because of what kind of accusation this is (i.e. man makes woman feel uncomfortable by being a creep -> they just think she should have said so in the moment and/or left and because she didn't, these accusations aren't anything all that objectionable, just a man possibly trying to get some and a woman "being a bitch" about it).

www.law.cornell.edu

defamation

 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,686
Costa Rica
I decided to check his stream and the guy literally just called TLOU2 "The Last of Us, Women" after a rant about the game being mean to males on stream.

Sounds like a cool guy! /s
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,810
United Kingdom
I decided to check his stream and the guy literally just called TLOU2 "The Last of Us, Women" after a rant about the game being mean to males on stream.

Sounds like a cool guy! /s

Joe's always been like this.

It just got ignored when one of the bigger parts of his schtick was "Ewww, gay people! They might take an interest in me! That's disgusting." He's a self-centred prick. Now he's pandering further and further to the angry alt-right crowd, more and more people are noticing what he's actually like. Or his online persona, if I want to be generous.
 

Love Machine

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,234
Tokyo, Japan
Joe's always been like this.

It just got ignored when one of the bigger parts of his schtick was "Ewww, gay people! They might take an interest in me! That's disgusting." He's a self-centred prick. Now he's pandering further and further to the angry alt-right crowd, more and more people are noticing what he's actually like. Or his online persona, if I want to be generous.
Never watched his streams so didn't realise he was actually one of those people. His VOD content was always somewhat filtered in that respect.

What an absolute prick.
 

Deleted member 2172

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,577
Joe's always been like this.

It just got ignored when one of the bigger parts of his schtick was "Ewww, gay people! They might take an interest in me! That's disgusting." He's a self-centred prick. Now he's pandering further and further to the angry alt-right crowd, more and more people are noticing what he's actually like. Or his online persona, if I want to be generous.
And yet he continues to get entire threads dedicated to his game reviews. If the predatory accusations against him in this thread are true: Fuck this guy. If they are false: Fuck this guy.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
4,127
London, UK
It doesn't matter if it's gaming or wharever.

if you are popular on YouTube / twitch you will have both an army of fans who will defend your regardless of facts and a platformholder who cares about nothing but a mouth of views so will in no way punish you - and in some cases like Logan Paul a few years ago, they will continue to promote you

it's an absolutely rotten situation and it needs to be sorted
 

ProfessorLobo

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,523
I kind of do try to give people a chance when accusations come up, because their responses say a lot, even if their responses are complete denials.

His response had all the thoughtfulness and awareness of Brett Kavanaugh and Evilore. The very bottom tier thing someone could say is "I'm sorry she felt that way, I saw things differently." And that's still shit. When someone responds by legal threats and "I never even tried to rape her!" strawmen, it immediately makes me think they're entirely guilty of what they're accused of, and even if they're not, they're shit people anyhow.
 

ProfessorLobo

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,523
Indeed. She never claims what happened to her was assault or that he assaulted anyone else. She simply says that she apologizes if by taking time to speak up that lead to him actually assaulting someone, not claiming whether such a thing actually occurred or not.

It's a huge case if misdirection/creating and attacking a strawman instead of what she's actually claiming.

And if get really wants to go "but what about the implication though," that's even more sad and creepy.

Because, oh, you suddenly want to talk about implications then?

Well, let's talk about implications.

Starting with the implication of not just taking a shower, but asking her to join you.

"But, but I never explicitly asked her to have sex with me"

Something that was never claimed and another huge strawman.

All she claimed was that he asked her to join him in the shower, no duh you didn't ask her explicitly for sex, that was never claimed to begin with.

How about the actual claim of asking her to join?

And moreover, since he's apparently an expert on implications, how about addressing the obvious implication of such an offer and addressing how it made her feel even if by some off chance you didn't actually mean it that way, even if that somehow wasn't an intentional implication, since you're nonetheless admitting to taking a shower anyway, why not just at the absolute very least go "now in hindsight I see how it could have been taken that way and though that's not what I intended intent only goes so far and I apologise all the same" or something like that?

Or does he truly only understand very particular implications and have nothing to say suddenly about ones like that?

But yeah, that's the insidious nature if this. That he actually does confirm large parts of her story, but then creates strawman after strawman instead of addressing what she's actually claiming.

And that's what's gets me.

Because if it's indeed all false, if it's nothing but lies, why not just say that to begin with?

Why create strawmen and attack those instead?

Surely it should be just as easy if not easier to address what she's actually saying and shoot it down?

Why instead put words in her mouth and shoot those down instead?

What reason could there be for him attacking strawmen instead of her actual claims?

Doesn't make sense to me any other way than she's telling the truth and he obviously doesn't want to admit it for obvious reasons and so play misdirection instead of having to outright lie.

And that's a consistent thing with his account. Where he pretty much admits almost everything happens just as she said it did... Until he gets to the "worst part" where he either avoids talking about it at all or only attacks a strawman of a claim.

He doesn't really deny any if her account. He either admits to it, or avoids talking about it entirely to attack something else instead.

That itself makes it pretty hard for me not to believe her and take her side because I can't really explain that, I can't really explain the respective claims and actions of both people unless she is. It's really the only way everything works.
This post says it better than mine did.
 

PAFenix

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Nov 21, 2019
14,773
I decided to check his stream and the guy literally just called TLOU2 "The Last of Us, Women" after a rant about the game being mean to males on stream.

Sounds like a cool guy! /s
Joe's always been like this.

It just got ignored when one of the bigger parts of his schtick was "Ewww, gay people! They might take an interest in me! That's disgusting." He's a self-centred prick. Now he's pandering further and further to the angry alt-right crowd, more and more people are noticing what he's actually like. Or his online persona, if I want to be generous.

To be honest, I was unaware of this side of his videos. I really only ever watched his Angry Reviews and only dipped a toe in his other content. An occasional movie review or whenever he reported on microtransactions. I should have caught on sooner, as his twitter interaction with Alanah Pearce over the Cyberpunk Character Creation should have sent up red flags. But alas.
 

garion333

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,722
Can we get threadmarks for their updated responses? Thread title indicates they exist, but this damn thread is too long to find em.
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
To be honest, I was unaware of this side of his videos. I really only ever watched his Angry Reviews and only dipped a toe in his other content. An occasional movie review or whenever he reported on microtransactions. I should have caught on sooner, as his twitter interaction with Alanah Pearce over the Cyberpunk Character Creation should have sent up red flags. But alas.
A good way to really find out if a youtuber is OK is by watching their streams.

Take for example Boogie, he made his name with his produced videos (both good and bad) but most of the heinous shit he did was on live streams and interviews. I remember stopping any intake of his content after his Jontron defence video but after that I found out some really horrible and quite frankly worrying attitudes he has towards women from clips people collected of his live streams.

YouTubers tend to be less rehearsed and more relaxed in live streams and eventually, if they are a shitty person, they show their true colours because they feel comfortable with their most hand core fans.
 

Ushay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,365
Interesting, just saw Joe's response.

In retrospect, what evidence did she provide ie messages etc? Not saying she's wrong, but some proof would go a long way. Also if she was lying, what does she gain by admitting this 2 years later.. Whole situation is messy to say the least.
 

PAFenix

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Nov 21, 2019
14,773
A good way to really find out if a youtuber is OK is by watching their streams.

Take for example Boogie, he made his name with his produced videos (both good and bad) but most of the heinous shit he did was on live streams and interviews. I remember stopping any intake of his content after his Jontron defence video but after that I found out some really horrible and quite frankly worrying attitudes he has towards women from clips people collected of his live streams.

YouTubers tend to be less rehearsed and more relaxed in live streams and eventually, if they are a shitty person, they show their true colours because they feel comfortable with their most hand core fans.

Good to know. I don't really watch livestreams much of anyone. I'll keep this in mind for the future, thanks for the tip.

Interesting, just saw Joe's response.

In retrospect, what evidence did she provide ie messages etc? Not saying she's wrong, but some proof would go a long way. Also if she was lying, what does she gain by admitting this 2 years later.. Whole situation is messy to say the least.

She had messages between the two of them in her article, but they have since been removed. (Or at least they were last I checked yesterday) All they were was initiating the exchange between them and he inviting her (which he corroborates in his own response). Granted, I read some of his messages as being flirty in nature, but that could just be my interpretation.
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
Good to know. I don't really watch livestreams much of anyone. I'll keep this in mind for the future, thanks for the tip.
Yeah I don't watch many streams myself either as I prefer more structured content but since the whole Boogie thing I realised what a difference there is between 10 minute produced content and 2 hour live stream behaviours.
 

Ikaruga

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,055
Austria
I saw the very end of his TLOU2 playthrough and
he was cheering for Abby to get murdered because Joel was such a cool guy
. I don't think hes very emotionally mature and/or intelligent on top of all the things that are happening.
You do realize that he is overreacting on purpose, right? That's what most youtuber/streamers do in general, it attracts especially a younger audience and kids these days are all over twitch and youtube.

About the tlou2 spoiler
I think the execution of the ending was really bad, Ellie kills hundreds of people, clickers, runners, bloaters just to get rid of abby, to then NOT getting rid of Abby, it's just stupid and meaningless, especially as it was the second time and run she was trying to kill her
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,761
You do realize that he is overreacting on purpose, right? That's what most youtuber/streamers do in general, it attracts especially a younger audience and kids these days are all over twitch and youtube.

About the tlou2 spoiler
I think the execution of the ending was really bad, Ellie kills hundreds of people, clickers, runners, bloaters just to get rid of abby, to then NOT getting rid of Abby, it's just stupid and meaningless

Overreacting or not, his stance on the things that happen in that game are no secret and it seems like its staying that way. It looks like you misinterpreted the ending too.
She stops drowning Abby because shes reminded of the situation with Joel (the final scene) where she says she doesn't think she can forgive him but shes going to try, but ultimately never got the chance to really forgive him. Feeling the parallel to her and Joel, doing something that will permanently damage the most important relationship but ultimately it was too late and Dina leaves her, presumably permanently.

You can feel that its stupid or whatever, but its not meaningless in any sense.
 
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seroun

Member
Oct 25, 2018
4,465
Indeed. She never claims what happened to her was assault or that he assaulted anyone else. She simply says that she apologizes if by taking time to speak up that lead to him actually assaulting someone, not claiming whether such a thing actually occurred or not.

It's a huge case if misdirection/creating and attacking a strawman instead of what she's actually claiming.

And if get really wants to go "but what about the implication though," that's even more sad and creepy.

Because, oh, you suddenly want to talk about implications then?

Well, let's talk about implications.

Starting with the implication of not just taking a shower, but asking her to join you.

"But, but I never explicitly asked her to have sex with me"

Something that was never claimed and another huge strawman.

All she claimed was that he asked her to join him in the shower, no duh you didn't ask her explicitly for sex, that was never claimed to begin with.

How about the actual claim of asking her to join?

And moreover, since he's apparently an expert on implications, how about addressing the obvious implication of such an offer and addressing how it made her feel even if by some off chance you didn't actually mean it that way, even if that somehow wasn't an intentional implication, since you're nonetheless admitting to taking a shower anyway, why not just at the absolute very least go "now in hindsight I see how it could have been taken that way and though that's not what I intended intent only goes so far and I apologise all the same" or something like that?

Or does he truly only understand very particular implications and have nothing to say suddenly about ones like that?

But yeah, that's the insidious nature if this. That he actually does confirm large parts of her story, but then creates strawman after strawman instead of addressing what she's actually claiming.

And that's what's gets me.

Because if it's indeed all false, if it's nothing but lies, why not just say that to begin with?

Why create strawmen and attack those instead?

Surely it should be just as easy if not easier to address what she's actually saying and shoot it down?

Why instead put words in her mouth and shoot those down instead?

What reason could there be for him attacking strawmen instead of her actual claims?

Doesn't make sense to me any other way than she's telling the truth and he obviously doesn't want to admit it for obvious reasons and so play misdirection instead of having to outright lie.

And that's a consistent thing with his account. Where he pretty much admits almost everything happens just as she said it did... Until he gets to the "worst part" where he either avoids talking about it at all or only attacks a strawman of a claim.

He doesn't really deny any if her account. He either admits to it, or avoids talking about it entirely to attack something else instead.

That itself makes it pretty hard for me not to believe her and take her side because I can't really explain that, I can't really explain the respective claims and actions of both people unless she is. It's really the only way everything works.


Couldn't have said it better.
 

Ikaruga

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,055
Austria
Overreacting or not, his stance on the things that happen in that game are no secret and it seems like its staying that way. It looks like you misinterpreted the ending too.
I got the ending, don't worry I get the idea ND wanted to get across however the execution felt lacking especially with
all the murdering Ellie has done to get to this point. I probably would have spared Abby as well, seeing her in that condition, but I wouldn't have slaughtered everyone to get to her either, especially not after finding some peace with Dina and her child on the farm, after failing to kill Abby the first time and almost dying at the attempt.

As for Joe, I don't really watch his content or have watched his playthrough, I've seen some snippets of him and year he definitely is living his persona, he's angryJoe after all. He built a reputation and he has to live up to it, for better or worse. Youtube is a business especially at the size of his channel
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,761
I got the ending, don't worry I get the idea ND wanted to get across however the execution felt lacking especially with
all the murdering Ellie has done to get to this point. I probably would have spared Abby as well, seeing her in that condition, but I wouldn't have slaughtered everyone to get to her either, especially not after finding some peace with Dina and her child on the farm, after failing to kill Abby the first time and almost dying at the attempt.

As for Joe, I don't really watch his content or have watched his playthrough, I've seen some snippets of him and year he definitely is living his persona, he's angryJoe after all. He built a reputation and he has to live up to it, for better or worse. Youtube is a business especially at the size of his channel

I really, really don't think we can state what we would personally do... because that's not a situation nor world we will ever be part of. After all, its not our story.
 

Gradon

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,479
UK
And yet he continues to get entire threads dedicated to his game reviews.

Dunky too, whose said racist and homophobic slurs in the past and never once apologised but "he might've changed."

You can get away with homophobia / racism when you're charismatic and funny.

Joe used SJW unironically in one of his videos too about Cyberpunk sooo.... the signs were always there that he was a prick regardless. 🙄

Joes statement is dubious as hell, basically doesn't dispute several of the creepy things she says he did at all, but disputes things she never even said.
 

Ikaruga

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,055
Austria
I really, really don't think we can state what we would personally do... because that's not a situation nor world we will ever be part of. After all, its not our story.
I don't mean personally in real life, I mean personally in the game, if I were given a chance to act differently, the game is sadly very linear but I understand having multiple choices wouldn't be possible with a game of that scale.
 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,645
Does anyone have a post number with the "[Updates from both posted]"? Assuming this is updates that came after Joe's initial reply? EDIT: Or is "both" refering to Joe's reply only?
 
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Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
I don't mean personally in real life, I mean personally in the game, if I were given a chance to act differently, the game is sadly very linear but I understand having multiple choices wouldn't be possible with a game of that scale.
Its not about the ability to do that but the choice of the developers to tell that story.

Not saying you have to enjoy it but ultimately they are telling you a story, not allowing people to tell their own.
 

Psittacus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,947
It's always so hard to tell which of the "just hash the truth out in court" takes are in bad faith and which are just unbearably naive
 

Tagg

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,717
Does anyone have a post number with the "[Updates from both posted]"? Assuming this is updates that came after Joe's initial reply? EDIT: Or is "both" refering to Joe's reply only?
Yeah, the thread title is misleading if there is only, in fact, Joe's response after the initial allegations.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,810
United Kingdom
To be honest, I was unaware of this side of his videos. I really only ever watched his Angry Reviews and only dipped a toe in his other content. An occasional movie review or whenever he reported on microtransactions. I should have caught on sooner, as his twitter interaction with Alanah Pearce over the Cyberpunk Character Creation should have sent up red flags. But alas.

One of my first encounters with his homophobia was when he made his Dragon Age II review, and he got mad that people of the same gender could try and initiate a romatic relationship with your character, and he made this skit.



It wasn't the last time he was like it either. It's been a recurring pattern that got ignored.
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,408
Joe's effort to add a subtle layer of "strawman" to deflect from her accusations is frustrating (and transparent) to see. That doesn't demonstrate guilt per-se, but it REALLY doesn't reflect well on his character, or make his statement feel frank or sincere.

The idea of insisting she go to the police when he knows her accusation isn't about illegal behavior is oddly damning to him, in my opinion.
 

PAFenix

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Nov 21, 2019
14,773
One of my first encounters with his homophobia was when he made his Dragon Age II review, and he got mad that people of the same gender could try and initiate a romatic relationship with your character, and he made this skit.



It wasn't the last time he was like it either. It's been a recurring pattern that got ignored.


Yeah, as much as I had issues with the way DA2 jumped from 0-100 with some of the romance dialogue, this isn't the way to go about discussing it. I hadn't seen this one, as it was before I started looking at his stuff. Thanks for bringing awareness.

was the other thread merged with this one?

Yes, it looks like it was. Sometime yesterday.
 

The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,159
Yeah, as much as I had issues with the way DA2 jumped from 0-100 with some of the romance dialogue, this isn't the way to go about discussing it. I hadn't seen this one, as it was before I started looking at his stuff. Thanks for bringing awareness.



Yes, it looks like it was. Sometime yesterday.
Ok thanks
 

BronzeWolf

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,643
Mexico
I read both accounts.

Although nothing overly illegal happened, and placing myself in the high-speed hectic social situation of a convention party, the lady is facing a lot of hate going her way in order to speak up. Angry Joe should acknowledge that, and IMO is being a total asshole and totally over-reacting to her account.

At most, this was a super shitty hook-up, and at best, some minor misunderstanding. Apologize, offer some remedy, and move on, this fight is not one worth having.