Are we over-labeling the alt-right?

Deleted member 37687 · May 3, 2018

Im sorry why arent these people speaking out then ??? So they get to vote for racist shit stain and watch as he shits on everyone one else but the sec somone calls them out immmmm noooottttt racist i only care about my tax money. Nah fuck that want to stopped called nazi stop fucking supporting them.

Deleted member 4461 · May 3, 2018

Elegant Weapon said:
https://www.splcenter.org/20180205/alt-right-killing-people

if you don't want to defend them, then stop defending them. Don't create qualifiers like "organized violence" as if all these murders are in a vacuum

the kid who bombed people, the Florida school shooter, the Waffle house murderer, the nazi that killed his girlfriend's parents, etc are all related

Again, I wasn't and will not defend actual Nazis. They're horrible. Not who this thread is about.

xbhaskarx said:
Why are you reading his site in the first place? And why are you posting his garbage on here? And why are you trying to explain his awful views?

Read the OP.

Cranston · May 3, 2018

4859 said:
You seriously don't understand the difference between the color of your skin, and what political party you have CHOSEN to support?

You don't understand why that is a massive false equivalence?

You raised skin colour. I was talking about religion. Anyway, of course I understand. Some would say that religion is a choice, but of course, for different faiths, the ability to leave is very difficult.

I'm not going to get in a daft argument no matter how exciteable you get. If you, to use your own approach, can't understand that it's silly to claim that a moderate is responsible, *no matter what*, for the activities of the extreme, then there's no point talking.

4859 · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
Honestly, no, I'm not, and a quick Wiki search offered very little information on her.

That's funny, the first google result is her wikipedia page, and the first paragraph calls her "recognized by Time magazine as the second most influential woman in America next to Eleanor Roosevelt" and the "First Lady of American Journalism."

Vlaphor · May 3, 2018

To be honest, I don't even like the term "Alt-Right" as it assumes that these people are somewhat different than your normal bog-standard conservative. Everything the "Alt-Right" says, the regular Right has been saying for years, just with code words. The only difference between the alt and the regular is skill with a dog whistle.

Metallix87 · May 3, 2018

4859 said:
That's funny, the first google result is her wikipedia page, and the first paragraph calls her "recognized by Time magazine as the second most influential woman in America next to Eleanor Roosevelt" and the "First Lady of American Journalism."

Unless I'm looking at the wrong article, I didn't see any details on her achievements. It's very cursory.

Skelepuzzle · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
I can't watch videos at work, sorry. I'm a teacher.

As for when it would be appropriate versus when it's not: I would call Richard Spencer a Nazi. He's a white supremacist, and has shown repeated interest in being an actual Nazi. I would not call random Republican senators Nazis. I probably wouldn't even call Milo a Nazi.

Richard Spencer is the self described leader of the alt right. You acknowledge he is a nazi. What are his followers, or people who self describe as alt right? Or people who follow their methods?

Metallix87 · May 3, 2018

Skelepuzzle said:
Richard Spencer is the self described leader of the alt right. You acknowledge he is a nazi. What are his followers, or people who self describe as alt right? Or people who follow their methods?

Those are not exclusively the ones being called Nazis, and you know it.

Tickling · May 3, 2018

Yes. Alt right is being used so unceremoniously it's beginning to lose meaning. It is being used to describe anyone who is conservative even people who are very left leaning conservatives. It also leads to the mob mentality of if you not with with us you against us and are a Nazi. What people who can't see people who use the term against people so much and unwarranted is they are pushing them to the right.

excelsiorlef · May 3, 2018

Tickling said:
very left leaning conservatives

No one is calling the more conservative Democrats alt-right.

Metallix87 · May 3, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
No one is calling the more conservative Democrats alt-right.

No, but they're calling all Republicans alt-right or Nazi.

Just_a_Mouse · May 3, 2018

Alt right/right....just varying degrees of xenophobic white supremacist bigots. In the end they all voted for the same piece of shit so fuck them.

hydrophilic attack · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
No, but they're calling all Republicans alt-right or Nazi.

i don't think anyone is calling jeb bush alt-right or nazi

legacyzero · May 3, 2018

Yes. Not only should we not be using the term "Alt Right", we're putting too many people in that camp which is growing its power.

We shouldn't allow a bunch of Nazis to relable themselves to pretty up the movement for the mainstream. They don't get to do that. They deserve to be called what they are. Nazis.

And also be punched in the face.

Bandage said:
The right, "far right", and alt right aren't that different.
It's just different levels of public racism.

This isn't true necessarily. "Enablers of"? Possibly. But I know plenty of conservatives that aren't evil ass clowns. Shitty views I don't agree with, but not Nazi / racist / shit person.

Calling a right wing person an alt right fascist is kinda like calling me, a Far lefty, a communist. I don't take that very well.

The Alt Right is trying to exist on our current political spectrum, and they fucking shouldn't. And we shouldn't let them. They're fucking Nazis.

The right side of the spectrum isn't going anywhere. As a matter of fact, I feel that it'll only grow and get stronger if we continue to mislabel it.

Our best hope is to move the Overton Window to the left, gradually if need be. Because right now we're one of the most conservative nation's in the world compared to many of the most modern nations.

excelsiorlef · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
No, but they're calling all Republicans alt-right or Nazi.

There are no real left leaning Republicans, which left leaning conservatives are Democrats... The GOP is a far right party period. The reality is if the GOP was so against the alt-right they'd have stopped Trump, they'd work against him, but they don't because the GOP is mostly made up of White supremacists, those who might not be one themselves but ally and work with them and do nothing to stop them and like 5 irrelevant GOPers who Cosplay as moderates to to give cover to the rest of the party.

Skelepuzzle · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
Those are not exclusively the ones being called Nazis, and you know it.

I'm not calling all Republicans nazis and I don't see many people who do.

What I do see are people who call Republicans supporters of racism, which is almost inarguable given their leader and AG.

Metallix87 · May 3, 2018

hydrophilic attack said:
i don't think anyone is calling jeb bush alt-right or nazi

Clearly that's not true, as evidenced by excelsiorlef's response above.

Skelepuzzle said:
I'm not calling all Republicans nazis and I don't see many people who do.

What I do see are people who call Republicans supporters of racism, which is almost inarguable given their leader and AG.

For the most part, I would agree with you then. I just disagree about not many people doing that.

excelsiorlef · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
Clearly that's not true, as evidenced by excelsiorlef's response above.

Where did I call Jeb Bush a Nazi....

4859 · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
Unless I'm looking at the wrong article, I didn't see any details on her achievements. It's very cursory.

....
........
....
Dude.
It's the first result of the Google search, her wikipedia page.

That shit was in the first paragraph.

But I think you've established well how you are going to handle this.

Cranston said:
You raised skin colour. I was talking about religion. Anyway, of course I understand. Some would say that religion is a choice, but of course, for different faiths, the ability to leave is very difficult.

I'm not going to get in a daft argument no matter how exciteable you get. If you, to use your own approach, can't understand that it's silly to claim that a moderate is responsible, *no matter what*, for the activities of the extreme, then there's no point talking.

Of course you have no argument, you have incredibly poorly disguised gotchas trying to equivilate cultures and aspects people are born Into with a choice of American political party.

Metallix87 · May 3, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
Where did I call Jeb Bush a Nazi....

You referred to them all as far right or in support of the alt-right. I didn't see a Jeb Bush exclusion in there.

4859 said:
....
........
....
Dude.
It's the first result of the Google search, her wikipedia page.

That shit was in the first paragraph.

But I think you've established well how you are going to handle this.

Just summarize the point you're trying to make, please?

excelsiorlef · May 3, 2018

Like legit of you can;'t handle the reality that the GOP is a far right party.... I can't help you. That's just a fact. That's why this hemming and hawing about are we too mean to them is irrelevant because the GOP is a far right party, Donald trump is a far right president, they are a party of oppression of the poor and of racial, sexual and gender minorities. I don't really care that some might not personally say bigoted things, they sit in their elected seats and support and enable policies that are exactly that.

What some of you want is for words to speak louder than actions... fuck that.

Cranston · May 3, 2018

4859 said:
Of course you have no argument, you have incredibly poorly disguised gotchas.

And I've just noticed that you have, as your profile picture, a Nazi pamphlet on the extermination of the Jews. Is that supposed to impress people? A grotesquely distasteful picture to justify your self righteous abuse?

excelsiorlef · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
You referred to them all as far right or in support of the alt-right. I didn't see a Jeb Bush exclusion in there.

Jeb Bush is a man who has a moral objection to same-sex marriage, wants religious rights to discriminate against LGBT folk, opposes abortion, wants to defund planned parenthood, skpetical about Global warming, opposes EPA restrictions on clean water and clean power, wants to cut the government, fuck over the poor, move the US embassy to Jerusalem, cancel the Iran deal, hates ACA, pro Gitmo, anti-marijuana, etc.. etc.. etc... Is he a Nazi, of course not, but he's also now just another private citizen.

Deleted member 7207 · May 3, 2018

When you say "we" who are you referring to exactly? If you mean this community, then yes, we definitely throw around that label with complete disregard for the facts (the irony...). Anyone that believes there are 63M or more Alt-Right members/sympathizers in the US needs a reality check.

As someone else already explained, it's often used in exaggerated fashion in order to draw more attention to a particular case, such as Kanye's, but if you're intentionally being deceptive or dishonest with your words then you lose credibility and that, in turn, makes it that much more difficult to have serious discussions.

Metallix87 · May 3, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
Do you deny The GOP is itself a far-right part?

I would deny that all members are far-right. I think the current majority are far-right, though.

Coyote Starrk · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
By this logic, we're all complicit with a lot of fucking shit. Voted for Trump? Complicit in him bombing Syria. Voted for Obama? Complicit in him devastating Libya. Voted for Bush? Complicit in destabilizing Iraq.

Obama didn't run on devastating Libya.

Bush didn't run on destabilizing Iraq .

Trump and various other republicans however DID run on racism, xenophobia and blatant falsehoods.

So yes if you vote for someone that is pushing for racist/homophobic/xenophobic policies then guess what? YOU SUPPORT THOSE POLICIES.

Don't fucking sit there and try to tell me that Republican voters didn't know what they were voting for when they voted these people into office. They KNEW what they were doing because the idiots TOLD THEM THEY WERE GONNA DO IT. So no you don't get to wave that away.

You can't just say "Oh well geez when Trump said he was gonna ban Muslims I thought he was just joshing me man. And that whole wall money pit? Yeah I thought that was a metaphor."

Stouffers · May 3, 2018

The competition for attention today is insane compared to decades past. There are millions of information channels to suckle forcing the content providers and opinion generators to resort to extreme and sustained hyperbole to get and stay noticed. This has more than seeped into the public and is now how many of us view "others" and converse on a daily basis. It's more than a little sick and will eventually come to a head.

hydrophilic attack · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
You referred to them all as far right or in support of the alt-right. I didn't see a Jeb Bush exclusion in there.

for being a teacher, your reading comprehension is not very good

she said that the GOP is a far-right party and that the GOP is a party mostly made up of white supremacists and people okay with allying with white supremacists to further their own goals

both of those statements are true, and neither of those statements is saying that every republican is far-right or in support of the alt-right

Metallix87 · May 3, 2018

Coyote Starrk said:
Obama didn't run on devastating Libya.

Bush didn't run on destabilizing Iraq .

Trump and various other republicans however DID run on racism, xenophobia and blatant falsehoods.

Okay, fine. If you voted to re-elect Bush or Obama, you're fucking complicit, then. Better?

hydrophilic attack said:
for being a teacher, your reading comprehension is not very good

she said that the GOP is a far-right party and that it is a party mostly made up of white supremacists and people okay at allying with white supremacists to further their own goals

both of those statements are true, and neither of those statementsis saying that every republican is far-right or in support of the alt-right

Obviously reading comprehension is an issue for you, as well, since the following statement in her post is that anyone in the party is ok sitting next to bigots and racists. So by that, Jeb may not be a bigot, but he's a-ok with working with them.

Deleted member 15737 · May 3, 2018

Vermillion said:
I mean, in the same post he explains that women can deal with the abortion question without men getting involved. So I'm not sure I'm with you there.

Did you just read the title?

That's definitely not what he was saying. Nazis are Nazis. He's saying that people call any other person who supports Trump "Nazis." Which is hella broad.

What? Is this a reverse purity test? Hold one mildly progressive view and you're exempt from being alt right?

That's ridiculous logic.

What a weird nutjob to go to bat for.

That link goes to his personal site (not happy about giving him the traffic), where he states wikileaks has never been wrong and intelligence agencies are professional liars.

Holy shit this list of conspiracy theories he gives that are on an equal plane in his mind "

Birtherism
Russian Collusion
Paris Climate Agreement
Seth Rich murdered by Clinton
Benghazi
President Trump is mentally incompetent
Charlottesville hoax
Syrian chemical weapons
Serge Kovaleski hoax
WMD in Iraq
Dossier
Anything that Clapper and Brennan say
The "racist dog whistle" theory of everything"

This is his justification for appearing on info wars
He doesn't care that Alex Jones lead to the harassment of dead kids parents, because CNN talks about racist dog whistles?

That link is trash conspiracy theory both sides garbage.

I'd urge others not to click it, as it supports a pretty insane alt right mouthpiece.

Coyote Starrk · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
Okay, fine. If you voted to re-elect Bush or Obama, you're fucking complicit, then. Better?

Sure.

Just show me the video of Obama or Bush talking about it being one of their goals and main campaign promises. You know like Trump stood on stage after stage citing racist and xenophobic fearmongering. Then I will call it my bad.

4859 · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
You referred to them all as far right or in support of the alt-right. I didn't see a Jeb Bush exclusion in there.

Just summarize the point you're trying to make, please?

That's no longer necessary for me, Mr. G. It would be redundant.

Metallix87 · May 3, 2018

Coyote Starrk said:
Sure.

Just show me the video of Obama or Bush talking about it being one of their goals and main campaign promises. Then I will call it my bad.

I mean, when you run for re-election, you're running on your record.

4859 said:
That's no longer necessary for me, Mr. G. It would be redundant.

Cool.

Dubbedinenglish · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
I would deny that all members are far-right. I think the current majority are far-right, though.

Framing it as majority/minority is frankly disingenuous. The entire core, those in power, and the overwhelming majority of new recruits are far right. Moderate Republicans are all but extinct

VISION · May 3, 2018

If you dont oppose bigotry and hate, you are complicit in it. That doesnt mean i hate you. You could be misguided or being manipulated by the right's propaganda machine. But in the end it doesnt really matter why you perpetuate bigotry because the end result is the same. Dilbert guy gets the same one vote as the guy flying a nazi flag on his truck.

hydrophilic attack · May 3, 2018

Vermillion said:
The issue is still that by making it "the alt-right ecosystem," we start overexaggerating the number of people who are alt-right. Then they really don't take the rest of what we say to heart. If I had a penny for the amount of times I've seen someone mockingly say "but to liberals, that makes me a Nazi/alt-right" after expressing an opinion, I'd be a wealthy man.

well, people who would say that would be using a disingenuous debating tactic in order to push right-wing opinions, which according to the post of mine that you quoted is sort of THE defining tactic of the alt-right ecosystem

legacyzero · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
Okay, fine. If you voted to re-elect Bush or Obama, you're fucking complicit, then. Better?

Obviously reading comprehension is an issue for you, as well, since the following statement in her post is that anyone in the party is ok sitting next to bigots and racists. So by that, Jeb may not be a bigot, but he's a-ok with working with them.

American exceptionalism is a bipartisan stance. Unfortunately

4859 · May 3, 2018

Cranston said:
And I've just noticed that you have, as your profile picture, a Nazi pamphlet on the extermination of the Jews. Is that supposed to impress people? A grotesquely distasteful picture to justify your self righteous abuse?

It's supposed to be an instant shutdown to very specific people who are very often apt to make a very commonly used specific whataboutism argument.... and has been put to good use several times already on this board alone, on people 'just asking questions'.

Let's see if you go there, you have the right the behavior patterns for it.

Skelepuzzle · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
Obviously reading comprehension is an issue for you, as well, since the following statement in her post is that anyone in the party is ok sitting next to bigots and racists. So by that, Jeb may not be a bigot, but he's a-ok with working with them.

Nearly every Republican in a position of power supports Donald Trump. The majority of the party does too by a decent margin. How is it inaccurate to say that Republicans are okay with having racist allies?

Metallix87 · May 3, 2018

Dubbedinenglish said:
Framing it as majority/minority is frankly disingenuous. The entire core, those in power, and the overwhelming majority of new recruits are far right. Moderate Republicans are all but extinct

I do not agree with your conclusion.

Coyote Starrk · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
I mean, when you run for re-election, you're running on your record.

Yeah and when you are voting for someone for the first time like Trump you are voting for them based on campaign promises.

What we're his main lines again? Oh right the racism and xenophobia. The promises to ban a religion and build a wall to keep out the dirty rapist criminal drug dealing immigrants. Oh and let's not forget the admitting of sexual harassment of women, and the numerous allegations of sexual assault and payoffs (which we now know are true)

Yes surely only the best people with the best character and intentions would vote for such a man. I mean clearly how could they have known any better? I mean it's not like he presented himself in such a way ALL THE FUCKING TIME.

Just stop.

hydrophilic attack · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
Obviously reading comprehension is an issue for you, as well, since the following statement in her post is that anyone in the party is ok sitting next to bigots and racists. So by that, Jeb may not be a bigot, but he's a-ok with working with them.

as a teacher, you should really know the difference between the two bolded expressions below:

excelsiorlef said:
the GOP is mostly made up of White supremacists, those who might not be one themselves but ally and work with them and do nothing to stop them

Metallix87 said:
anyone in the party is ok sitting next to bigots and racists

excelsiorlef · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
I would deny that all members are far-right. I think the current majority are far-right, though.

So uh why are you taking any issue with what I said.

Metallix87 · May 3, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
So uh why are you taking any issue with what I said.

I'm not? You said what you said, and I feel it backs up my running thesis to a degree.

hydrophilic attack said:
as a teacher, you should really know the difference between the two bolded expressions below:

Keep reading.

motherless · May 3, 2018

I don't put much weight if any in people that label all or the majority of people GOP Alt-Right or Nazi's. The same goes for Libtards or others phrases used. There are racist people in the GOP and DNC.

excelsiorlef · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
Obviously reading comprehension is an issue for you, as well, since the following statement in her post is that anyone in the party is ok sitting next to bigots and racists. So by that, Jeb may not be a bigot, but he's a-ok with working with them.

Yes of course he is.

Why is that even remotely controversial.

He's also not even a elected official anymore and hasn't been for oh 11 years.

And literally he's probably one of the closest things the GOP has to a guy with integrity and he is still a guy who would prefer women have no access to abortion, planned parenthood not exist, that gay people not be allowed to marry and that religious folk be allowed to discriminate against LGBt folk.... and he's the "good" side of the GOP.

This is my point, the party is fucking rotten, it is oppressive and it is harmful, period. And everyone who enables them knows exactly what they are getting and what they are supporting.

Deleted member 15737 · May 3, 2018

Coyote Starrk said:
Yeah and when you are voting for someone for the first time like Trump you are voting for them based on campaign promises.

What we're his main lines again? Oh right the racism and xenophobia. The promises to ban a religion and build a wall to keep out the dirty rapist criminal drug dealing immigrants. Oh and let's not forget the admitting of sexual harassment of women, and the numerous allegations of sexual assault and payoffs (which we now know are true)

Yes surely only the best people with the best character and intentions would vote for such a man. I mean clearly how could they have known any better? I mean it's not like he presented himself in such a way ALL THE FUCKIMG TIME.

Just stop.

And his involvement in birtherism. And his campaign to arrest 5 innocent black men.

Trump was not a very subtle racist leading up to the election. So yeah, people who voted for him are racist or ignorant to an exceptional degree. Usually a combo of the two.

Cyan · May 3, 2018

tbf Adams just doesn't want to be a top-ten assassination target in the coming race wars.

hydrophilic attack · May 3, 2018

Metallix87 said:
Keep reading.

what are you even saying in this pseudo-discussion at this point?

madstrike · May 3, 2018

Are we over-labeling the alt-right?

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