So the Xavier NX has 512 CUDA cores really but they just disable some of them?
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Based on how tech has progressed since the Switch, how powerful could a Switch Pro in early 2021 actually be?
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So the Xavier NX has 512 CUDA cores really but they just disable some of them?
We don't know tegra xavier's performances. It uses way more IO space than Xbox one x's chip (47% GPU die space allocated vs less than a third for Xavier). It has a really large part dedicated to hardware acceleration and it has 2 to 3x the number of DDR channels needed for a new switch.
That being said, it probably has the best GPU in the mobile market but we don't know the Carmel core performance. We only know that it is roughly on par with 10/7 nm A75/[email protected] in spec 2006 CPU benchmark running @2GHz on 12 nm. And it is fully compatible with ARMv8.1 ISA and thus TX1's A57.
And I forgot to mention that Volta GPUs are not meant for gaming, as Volta GPUs are currently used in automotive cars and supercomputers.
I think it's probably safe to assume it would be about double the existing Switch at least, enough to have the "Pro" moniker.
If you're going past that I'm not really even sure what product you're making anymore ... is that supposed to be a new console entirely?
Yes. The same as shield TV stick and Jetson nano running Nintendo switch's defective SOCs and shield TV pro using too hot or power consuming nintendo switch SOCs.
The problem with tegra Xavier is die space lost for unnecessary logic such as hardware video acceleration or DDR/PCIe/NVLINK channels.
GPU and CPU are not arguments against the use of this chip in a successor. $/die space is, even on 8 or 7 nm. Actually, Xavier CPU may have a better single threaded performance than the ARM A70 line on the same node/same clocks. Especially with the Cortex X1 existence and A78 being aimed at best PPA.
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Yeah but the NX board is pretty small overall and it consumes not a ton of power.
I just think the economics play into this ... Nvidia probably spent as much or more making that Xavier chip as the Tegra X1 and I'm guessing they haven't gotten the return on it they would have liked. Car automation has not really taken off as quickly as maybe was being hyped 2-3 years ago.
They have this perfectly good, usable chip that has some nice horsepower but they don't really have a vendor for it.
Even if it isn't the most efficient design and wasn't intended for game systems, I guess neither really was the Tegra X1.
What performance does Nintendo even want for a Pro model? I don't think they're asking for the moon here.
Xavier is probably in its EOL period due to it being on 12 nm. That being said, all you said will still be true for Orin that is targeted towards devices consuming from 5W to 45W. A range in which one could easily find a Switch with a magnesium alloy.
But Nintendo could also try to drawn more power from the existing TX1 SOC on 8 nm in 2021 and 2022 (as rumoured on this thread) and reserve an Orin/Ampere/Hooper derivative chip for a 2023 or 2024 model with a high density and cheaper 7EUV node or better.
The X1 isn't the greatest mobile SoC ever, but I don't think you're really going to be finding a better x86-based one that would fit in with the Switch's constraints.
Nintendo generally doesn't mandate that all games must run on the base console like Sony and Microsoft do. I don't see why they'd start now. Especially when it would probably really help them get more ports.
Regardless, there's always some sort of extra selling point to these revisions. GBC had the color screen. DSi had a camera, a music player, and DSiWare. New 3DS had an incorporated Circle Pad Pro and the vastly improved, more stable 3D. I'm sure Switch Pro will have some additional feature or two, it's just not super clear what that looks like right now.
Xbox One X is the only one that came close to that, and that was only really the GPU, with the CPU and RAM getting very modest upgrades in both Xbox One X and PS4 Pro. A Switch Pro could realistically be 2x across the board.
Nintendo isn't chasing parity with pure performance, as I doubt they won't even be able to match something remotely "numbers specwise" without costs balooning.
This gets me excited can't wait to more rumors start popping up. If they are beginning production Q4 this year we don't have long before some serious info starts dropping.
Best info will probably be Orin die size. Maybe September 1st or October 1st.
lol no. The worst case scenario is a die shrunk model of Tegra X1 model at 8 or 7nm. And that's what we will likely get, mostly for easy CPU compatibility (A57s). But that's not absolutely the worst case scenario, its if we don't 2x power in CPU, RAM and GPU and it ends up being a new 3DS with boosts to CPU and RAM, that would be a worst case scenario.
Might as well keep the momentum going until Switch 2 arrives in 2024 and get more xbone and PS4 compatible games, past and future (2 years). If it ends up being 2x as powerful as OG Switch in every way, then it will be on par with xbone. How might they advertise this you say?
-guaranteed past and future support of switch games, with higher performance on Switch pro. Can a 2.25x jump in resolution, or some gramerate upgrade or etc. Games like BOTW 1, Odyssey, and xenoblade games get 1080p support, and select third party games (up to them) get performance boosts as well (Doom, Witcher 3). Also future games like Doom Eternal, BOTW2, MP4 are highlighted, and Nintendo guarantees 1080p support for 1st party games
-handheld specs bein able to play current OG docked specs + enhanced battery life in both handheld modes
-better Labo VR performance
I think 1 October 2020 would be the most likely date for any news about the Orin SoC since 1 September 2020 is all about the consumer Ampere GPUs and the Orin SoC is a SoC for automotive cars and other professional applications.
We must temper our expectations. Nintendo hasn't even significantly upgraded their GPU for past handhelds for pro revisions. 2x in CPU, GPU and Ram is realistic, and I'm really hoping we get those and nothing worse. We can't reach more than 2x unless its not on TX1, which I'm not betting on.
I'm thinking more now that Switch 2 will be a 2024 release if we get a switch pro next year.
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If the "Nintendo Switch 2" releases on 2024, I wonder what are the chances of Nintendo and Nvidia going for a Tegra SoC with a Hopper based GPU.
Could go eitherway, i'd say if it was early 2024 it'd be more likely to be an upgraded Ampere type. With late 2024 being slightly more likely.
From a technical standpoint, I would say the same as going for an Ampere based SOC in 2021.
Edit: actually the same for an hooper based SOC in 2023 instead of 2024.
I'm ready for it. Just the information that kind of proves it's coming then we can really get into speculation.
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That article mentioning image quality being improved is interesting. That all but confirms a GPU upgrade, but it could also be just a better quality screen as well. I'm not expecting a 1080p screen, but it would be a surprise. Battery life would take a hit, but who knows what Nintendo would do. They could release two models with a bigger switch Pro being 1080p and a better battery and a smaller pro being cheaper and retaining 720p. I don't care if they stick to 720p, but hopefully its 2.2.5x powerful in every way all around.
That article mentioning image quality being improved is interesting. That all but confirms a GPU upgrade, but it could also be just a better quality screen as well. I'm not expecting a 1080p screen, but it would be a surprise. Battery life would take a hit, but who knows what Nintendo would do. They could release two models with a bigger switch Pro being 1080p and a better battery and a smaller pro being cheaper and retaining 720p. I don't care if they stick to 720p, but hopefully its 2.2.5x powerful in every way all around.
2K is 1080p while 1440p is 2.5K.
Pretty safe bet that their games will definitely hit 1080p on a revision, which would be really nice.
No, 2k is 1440p.
Yes, nobody is expecting more than 1080p for a pro revision.
If a new and more powerful model is scheduled for early 2021, Nintendo will probably have to reveal it before showing trailer of games supporting a supposed better power profile otherwise it could mean that there will only be a QOL update (stable 720p in handheld mode and 1080p in docked mode)
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I wonder if Nvidia might be interested in entering the market where mobile smartphones might be running on Windows 10 on Arm. It seems that Windows 10 on Arm developers managed to get dual display support working on the Microsoft Lumia 950 XL. If Nvidia does manage to successfully acquire Arm, I think this might give us a hint about how the CPU cores are configured on the Tegra SoC on the "Nintendo Switch 2".
Knowing Nintendo they will wait and showcase a game running on the hardware, then highlight the new hardware afterwards... I really do think the first time we really see BoTW2, Bayo3 and MP4 will be on the new Switch.
yeah I don't expect to see any of those this year either... I think this is a likely scenario
Nintendo Switch Pro: Everything We Know - 4K Visuals, Nvidia Tegra And 2021 'OLED Model'
All the rumours regarding a more powerful Switch
www.nintendolife.com
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For a Pro revision the only things I expect are a 1080p screen and an approrprate amount of increased CPU/GPU clock speed so that Switch game performance can much more comfortably run games in 1080p or 900p or 720p, without having to go below native 720p HD in portable, handheld or docked modes, and more comfortably handle various new and future Switch games at 1080p 60fps or 1080p 30fps. That wouldinclude BoTW2 naturally. and Bayo2, and anything Monolith does in 2021-2023. The next 3D Mario game, for late in OG Switche's life (i.e. 2023). Perhaps even Metroid Prime 4, assuming it does not skip current gen Switch and get made exclusively for Nintendo's next-generation Hybrid console (Switch 2, or whatever something they name it) which should be on store shelves not later than Q1 2024.
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I highly doubt a Switch Pro would get anywhere near 4k. Unless they release a dock with processing power in it as well I would be very surprised.
The dock is actually the main thing holding it back from 4k right now. The Tegra X1 is perfectly capable of outputting 4k but the HDMI controller in the dock can't output 4k at 60Hz.
I think the Switch Pro is or new Switch will be a nicer, 1080p machine.
1080p screen.
50% higher clocked CPU. 50% higher clocked GPU
2x the memory bandwidth (128-bit bus, instead of 64-bit, but not 256-bit like Xavier)
Same ARM CPU architecture as Switch/Tegra X1 - However. more efficient Volta GPU cores, instead of Maxwell cores.
but still just 256 of them like in Switch / Tegra X1, not 512 GPU cores like Xavier. Nintendo won't go beyond 256-GPU/CUDA cores until its true next-gen system in 3-4 years.
Much better able to handle 1080p + AA in games at 30fps or 60fps when docked and on a large 1080p display. The next Monster Hunter game for Switch will take full advantage of Switch Pro, so will BoTW2 and Metroid Prime Trilogy HD/Remastered. Not to mention Metroid Prime 4 in ~2023m assuming that game has not been slated for Nintendo's next-gen Hybrid without cross-gen support.
1080p screen.
50% higher clocked CPU. 50% higher clocked GPU
2x the memory bandwidth (128-bit bus, instead of 64-bit, but not 256-bit like Xavier)
Same ARM CPU architecture as Switch/Tegra X1 - However. more efficient Volta GPU cores, instead of Maxwell cores.
but still just 256 of them like in Switch / Tegra X1, not 512 GPU cores like Xavier. Nintendo won't go beyond 256-GPU/CUDA cores until its true next-gen system in 3-4 years.
Much better able to handle 1080p + AA in games at 30fps or 60fps when docked and on a large 1080p display. The next Monster Hunter game for Switch will take full advantage of Switch Pro, so will BoTW2 and Metroid Prime Trilogy HD/Remastered. Not to mention Metroid Prime 4 in ~2023m assuming that game has not been slated for Nintendo's next-gen Hybrid without cross-gen support.
I hope I'm wrong but I still don't think we will see a 1080p screen in a Switch product until the successor comes along. We could still get a Sharp display with 720p resolution but with smaller bezels and better power draw. The whole Volta theory would be interesting if it also corroborates those rumors of Nintendo testing out Xavier chips a little while back. I'm actually of the mind hoping they double the gpu cores to get a significant enough performance gain vs max clocking of the 256 cores.
At this point I'm not holding my breath for MP Trilogy having drastic improvements over the original version, BoTW2, Bayo3 and MP4 though I fully expect to be the crown jewels for what the new hardware can do.
They could die shrink X1 again and squeeze a little extra blood out of the stone but it seems very unlikely the direction they would go. Something like Xavier NX would make more sense. Its a scaled down Xavier with alot of the fluff cut from it and in a much lower thermal package. NX is a 384 Core Volta Product with 48 Tensor Cores as well. The CPU cores seem like the only questionable aspect
Is the a reason for this assumption? I genuinely don't know enough about the tech to understand why it would have to wait.
I would've though were Nintendo and NVidia collaborating on a revision and were open to improvements all across the board, DLSS would be part of the discussion.
If the 4K thing is legit then it almost certainly has to be some kind of DLSS implimentation.
I just wonder though if that means Xavier NX is still in play. It does have Tensor cores, but it's not a Turing card. Maybe DLSS 2.0 runs just fine as long as you have the available Tensor cores.
I just wonder though if that means Xavier NX is still in play. It does have Tensor cores, but it's not a Turing card. Maybe DLSS 2.0 runs just fine as long as you have the available Tensor cores.
The way that bloomberg article is written, almost sounds like its saying next year's switch model will support it natively, vs output. Now I personally don't believe it will be natively though and they probably got it mixed with output... unless there is a dock with an scd involved that has an additional GPU and some crazy fast speed thunderbolt connection, or its a docked version of the switch...
They would have to make a Xavier NX SOC on 8nm specifically, as the full Xavier would be too big even after the 8nm shrink (I guess something around 200 mm^2).
This of course would be possible, but why not build a Nintendo specific SOC then without all the unnecessary silicon of Xavier? The GPU part of Xavier is only 1/4 of the die area (it is the half on the now disclosed XBSX die for comparison), Carmel CPU cores are also extremely huge compared to ARM designs (Cortex A7x).
From my point of view it either is another die shrink of TX1 (or TX2 if they want the bigger memory interface) or a custom chip based on the Orin architecture with A78 CPU cores (hopefully 8) and at least 512 CUDA cores and without the automotive related "fat". I am keeping the CUDA core count conservative here, next week we should be wiser how big they are on 8nm.
the framebuffer bus on the NX can _not_ deal with 4k resolution throughput at a reasonable framerate, lol
To be clear, there is no Xavier NX chip. Xavier is a 350mm2 chip with 8 Carmel core and 512 Volta GPU core with tensor capabilities. NX is just running defective Xavier SOCs with 386 GPU core and 6 Carmel core activated. But it's still the full 350mm2 chip.
If the rumor from Mr Moshizuki from Bloomberg is true (4k capabilities), we can assume that this new model is not running with a 256 cuda core Maxwell or Pascal based SOC. It could be a Xavier/Orin derivative or full chip. It could be a completely new Ampere based chip. We will have to wait for more informations.
A die shrunk TX1 on 8 nm is still a possibility.
If the rumor from Mr Moshizuki from Bloomberg is true (4k capabilities), we can assume that this new model is not running with a 256 cuda core Maxwell or Pascal based SOC. It could be a Xavier/Orin derivative or full chip. It could be a completely new Ampere based chip. We will have to wait for more informations.
A die shrunk TX1 on 8 nm is still a possibility.
A "market" with no apps and no reasonable expectations of the apps that are there being optimized for your platform, no push or development for your formfactor from the developer, while paying licenses for the honor of doing the business development, marketing, and running all the risks. Maybe no.
I dunno about the latter. That's too ambitious for Nintendo to be releasing tech a couple months old. TX 1 or hell a die shrunk modified Xavier NX is more possible at this point. But still.. the CPU is the issue here for compatibility reasons. Would they really go with a different CPU for a pro model (regardless of backwards compatibility, still takes work, especially Carmel cores)
Also, the dude just updated his Twitter saying he never used switch pro, and reiterated that "it's been looking into." The latter implies the whole 4k thing.
Well for one the Nvidia job posting looking for a software engineer was not to long ago and they currently don't have a chip designed to take advantage of DLSS in a Tegra(like) form factor. Even if both companies were looking to use some kind of Xavier variation, it would kind of be pointless because they could probably get the same performance metric out of Maxwell/Pascal cores @8nm and then move on to newer architecture for Switch 2.
Turing and Ampere actually have Tensor cores built into the SM's where as Xavier has DL accelerators added on to perform machine learning tasks.
Tegra Xavier - Nvidia - WikiChip
Tegra Xavier is a 64-bit ARM high-performance system on a chip for autonomous machines designed by Nvidia and introduced in 2018. Xavier is incorporated into a number of Nvidia's computers including the Jetson Xavier, Drive Xavier, and the Drive Pegasus.
en.wikichip.org
In addition the "gen 1" Tensors that Xavier has can't run DLSS or similar software.Well for one the Nvidia job posting looking for a software engineer was not to long ago and they currently don't have a chip designed to take advantage of DLSS in a Tegra(like) form factor. Even if both companies were looking to use some kind of Xavier variation, it would kind of be pointless because they could probably get the same performance metric out of Maxwell/Pascal cores @8nm and then move on to newer architecture for Switch 2.
Turing and Ampere actually have Tensor cores built into the SM's where as Xavier has DL accelerators added on to perform machine learning tasks.
Tegra Xavier - Nvidia - WikiChip
Tegra Xavier is a 64-bit ARM high-performance system on a chip for autonomous machines designed by Nvidia and introduced in 2018. Xavier is incorporated into a number of Nvidia's computers including the Jetson Xavier, Drive Xavier, and the Drive Pegasus.
Can someone please tell me what are the chances of a custom Tegra chipset for the Switch Pro that will be DLSS 2.0 compatible? I am currently daydreaming about them having the Switch Pro just powerful to get some extra resolution, or example BOTW at native 1080p and use DLSS 2.0 to get it running at 4k. Or having Witcher 3 run at dynamic 1440p using DLSS.
I still think if it isn't a Xavier dump, it could be a chip largely based on the existing Xavier design just tuned for gaming specific functions. Maybe instead of a Caramel CPU you get an ARM A57 cluster, instead of first gen tensor cores you get more modern ones. Put that on an 8nm node.
It's probably a heckuva lot cheaper to do that. I don't think an Orin based chip or some other entirely new because I just don't think Nintendo would spend that kind of money on a revision.
I think 384 Cuda core Xavier revision @ 8nm with a different CPU config capped at 78% max clock.
788 GFLOPS docked, 394 GFLOPS undocked. They're not going to want to splinter the userbase, having all Switch games at least have a 394 GFLOP profile ensures some level of compatibility.
Enough of an upgrade that you can see real benefit for games like Zelda BOTW2 and Monster Hunter Switch and opens the door to easier ports of some higher profile Japanese 3rd party games perhaps (FF7 Remake, RE2 Remake).
It's probably a heckuva lot cheaper to do that. I don't think an Orin based chip or some other entirely new because I just don't think Nintendo would spend that kind of money on a revision.
I think 384 Cuda core Xavier revision @ 8nm with a different CPU config capped at 78% max clock.
788 GFLOPS docked, 394 GFLOPS undocked. They're not going to want to splinter the userbase, having all Switch games at least have a 394 GFLOP profile ensures some level of compatibility.
Enough of an upgrade that you can see real benefit for games like Zelda BOTW2 and Monster Hunter Switch and opens the door to easier ports of some higher profile Japanese 3rd party games perhaps (FF7 Remake, RE2 Remake).
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