oty

Member
Feb 28, 2023
4,626
Get FF7III to wrap up the trilogy and put a pause on FF development until they can formulate a solid package for a next mainline title that can hit the heights of the classics again. Games like XV and XVI have fallen short in many aspects and damaged the brand. They need to earn it back.

The 7R trilogy has tapped into a lot of that magic of the classics by virtue of having a strong foundation to work from with a team that knew how to reinvigorate for a three part requel. But that clearly has a ceiling in regards to growing the brand, and only an original mainline title that's firing on all cylinders like FF7R has been can do that.
XV damaged the brand by...selling absolute bonkers! yeah, people just bought it and kept buying it because they obviously hated it too much, and then they made a mobile game out of it that made tons of money because people really hated XV

when are we going to stop with that argument as if it makes sense?
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,101
Need actual data than someone who has not shown clear bias against SE and FFXVI first. We don't know what the expectations even are.

I mean, SE is down 15% today so while he could be uh "inaccurately reporting" we'll find out soon enough.

FF16 is the game that controversially didn't have any/many POC's in it?

Damn, it's a shame it didn't sell as well as they anticipated. Lol.

Correct.

BTW, it's worth noting that the concerns about XVI's post-launch sales go back to that one IGN article where they had heard that the legs had collapsed only a couple months in. S-E's response was to dodge the main question entirely, and deflect by reiterating that the initial sales met expectations.

That response got stripped of context so it could be spun for months across the internet (including here) as evidence that sales were fine.

Yep. Met expectations was repeated ad nauseum.

"Confident it will hit its 18 month goal"

Do we just ignore their confidence in reaching their 18 month goal?

What goal is that? There are ranges of expectations. Meeting the minimum/low end isn't really that great. There's still no PC release date in sight and we're quickly approaching the one year mark.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,015
XV damaged the brand by...selling absolute bonkers! yeah, people just bought it and kept buying it because they obviously hated it too much, and then they made a mobile game out of it that made tons of money because people really hated XV

when are we going to stop with that argument as if it makes sense?

Well it kinda damaged brand when they abruptly ended post launch support and canceled planned DLCs XD
 

DeSolos

Member
Nov 14, 2017
565
Sucks cause FF16 and FF7Rebirth are so good, and FF7R is pretty much my ideal kind of game. After FF7R3, I worry if they'll keep making games like it anymore...

The gaming business seems hellbent on pushing games away from the kind of games I like. I know it's "just a AAA problem", but the FF7Rebirth type of game is only possible at the AAA scale of production, indie and AA could never make a FF7Rebirth. I hope multiplat will improve things, but I don't see late captialism, infinite money potential in simply increasing the market. Put me out to pasture I guess.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,727
Well it kinda damaged brand when they abruptly ended post launch support and canceled planned DLCs XD

I don't actually think it did. People do not want to buy three years of paid post-launch DLC for a single-player game. They likely had performance metrics for Episode Ardyn that made it abundantly clear that continuing to ask people for more money for three more DLC wouldn't have been worth the effort.

Like, that's a LOT of time spent on development for paid DLC for a SP game and that was three years after launch. At some point you gotta cut bait. Even From Software like "lol no" when asked if they're gonna do more DLC after Elden Ring's expansion. Better to move on to the next game.
 

amara

Member
Nov 23, 2021
4,131
It's time to start putting the young people in charge of the direction of the games like how Nintendo did. Multi platform means nothing if they don't have any legs
 

CenaToon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,444
If you have a developer that every time they had some kind of "good" sales, they brag about it in social media almost inmediately without wait, you got to know things are not going really well when they stopped doing that social media bragging.

That's why studios has to have a standard "social media sales bragging" in every release, six months after release, 1 year, i dont know, but we dont have to be insiders or shareholders to know that when those kind of studios like to brag inmediately about sales, goes radio silent, is because sales are not going well.

I feel sad for ff16, but at least has 1 tweet of 3 million, Rebirth not even having nothing makes me wonder how much the game really has sold until now.
 

AwakenedCloud

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,827
It's sad that Rebirth isn't a financial success, but it and Remake are the happiest I've been with Square Enix since the PS2 days.
 

Cantaim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,563
The Stussining
While it sounds like doom and gloom. My own hot take is that this is a fixable ship by doing day and date multiplatform releases. There is only so much marketing money so being able to front load it and get positive word of mouth that trickles down to all versions would be a great bump. At least being able to synergize with PC should help. Throw in Xbox and Switch 2 and I think this is a fixable problem.
 

Toth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,149
I mean, SE is down 15% today so while he could be uh "inaccurately reporting" we'll find out soon enough.



Correct.



Yep. Met expectations was repeated ad nauseum.





What goal is that? There are ranges of expectations. Meeting the minimum/low end isn't really that great. There's still no PC release date in sight and we're quickly approaching the one year mark.

Meeting expecations even at the low end would be fine for SE at this point as all their HD games have been underwhelming. That PS5 exclusivity deal has been quite damaging overall. Maybe thats why Wada really left.

edit: also the stock is down because operating costs were so high, not because of this information.
 
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Bebpo

Member
Feb 4, 2018
4,787
Also at this point anyone who thinks Remake part 3 is "safe" and going to be "just fine" is an extremely optimistic individual.
 

ChocoBuddy

Banned
Apr 9, 2024
254
Yeah so in regards to XVI, it's post launch legs aren't as good as they hoped. I'm curious what figures they were hoping for there.

Rebirth sales confirm what we know but no numbers for that specifically is...concerning. it probably ballparks to around a million less than XVI.

XVI's PC port might give them the legs they're looking for which is why they sound confident about the 18 month goal.

Not looking good overall, though. Hopefully they turn it around.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,727
While it sounds like doom and gloom. My own hot take is that this is a fixable ship by doing day and date multiplatform releases. There is only so much marketing money so being able to front load it and get positive word of mouth that trickles down to all versions would be a great bump. At least being able to synergize with PC should help. Throw in Xbox and Switch 2 and I think this is a fixable problem.

The thing is that expanding your development out to that many platforms has its drawbacks, and also including Switch 2 in day one launch consideration basically kills any ambition or technical growth the series COULD have dead in its tracks. It's not as simple as "just make more versions of the game" - now the game's entire core design has to be built around the worst platform. Which means every game will be a PS4 game in its core essence and just "prettier" on the other three platforms. That's not a GREAT sales pitch for Final Fantasy.

I'm gonna be mean for a second and just say...I don't think FF has anything if it isn't pushing technology. The series has progressively sanded off every single bit of identity it used to have over the past decade or so, that I'm not sure what's left if they can't even claim "AAA graphics and tech" as their calling card.
 

Leeness

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,028
As an Old Final Fantasy Lover™️, this all just makes me sad. FF16, and 7R2 were both awesome games (Rebirth is honestly up there in my fave FFs. The entire remake project as a trilogy will probably be high up on my list). Hope KH4 will be okay (in terms of not bombing).

I hope they can turn it around.
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
19,102
Get FF7RIII to wrap up the trilogy and put a pause on FF development until they can formulate a solid package for a next mainline title that can hit the heights of the classics again. Games like XV and XVI have fallen short in many aspects and damaged the brand. They need to earn it back.

The 7R trilogy has tapped into a lot of that magic of the classics by virtue of having a strong foundation to work from with a team that knew how to reinvigorate for a three part requel. But that clearly has a ceiling in regards to growing the brand, and only an original mainline title that's firing on all cylinders like FF7R has been can do that.
100%

Final Fantasy needs its BOTW moment. They can and should use Rebirth as the foundation to achieve that, especially with the tone and how amazing the combat is, but they're not gonna achieve that brand invigoration with a sequel that's heavily plot-reliant on both Remake and the original FF7 at the same time (as much as I love them), they need a fresh start with that Rebirth magic applied to it

I want an original open world Final Fantasy with lots of charm, a job system, and something similar to Rebirth's combat. IMO there would be a lot of potential with that.
 

Dreamboum

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
23,031
man, we can't be having that. now the final fantasy era war will keep going for another fiscal year
it's time to get posting again until we make one or the other a success

giphy.gif
 

Doctor_Thomas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,806
I will always maintain that, despite being "full" games, splitting FFVIIR in to three full priced releases was always going to alienate people and now my concern is the third part will be downscaled due to the sales despite Rebirth being top tier.
 
Oct 27, 2017
43,077
Rebirth is a long game. I wonder if that turned people off to it? HLTB shows a roughly 90 hour average playtime... it took me 115 and I was nowhere near getting the plat.
I don't think that made any difference whatsoever. There are plenty of long games. The Persona games keep selling more and more and those are crazy long as well
 

Dougieflesh

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,421
Milky Way Ghetto
The thing is that expanding your development out to that many platforms has its drawbacks, and also including Switch 2 in day one launch consideration basically kills any ambition or technical growth the series COULD have dead in its tracks. It's not as simple as "just make more versions of the game" - now the game's entire core design has to be built around the worst platform. Which means every game will be a PS4 game in its core essence and just "prettier" on the other three platforms. That's not a GREAT sales pitch for Final Fantasy.

I'm gonna be mean for a second and just say...I don't think FF has anything if it isn't pushing technology. The series has progressively sanded off every single bit of identity it used to have over the past decade or so, that I'm not sure what's left if they can't even claim "AAA graphics and tech" as their calling card.
The current sales pitch ain't great.
 

kyorii

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,993
Splatlandia
Yeah I don't think going multiplat would really fix this problem entirely. There's been jokes about how Final Fantasy is the the boomer JRPG out there, and quite frankly, I think it's on the mark with today's market and demographics.
 

Toth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,149
He saying FFRebirth and Foamstar didnt meet expectations yet didnt sell badly is weird. Perhaps their expectations were just too high. We know thats been an issue for them in the past lol
 

crimmy88

Member
Aug 7, 2023
279
What goal is that? There are ranges of expectations. Meeting the minimum/low end isn't really that great. There's still no PC release date in sight and we're quickly approaching the one year mark.

If they believe they'll meet that mark, then let's see if they do make it in December. If they think they will be satisfied come December, then why should what we believe matter?

Given their release schedule, their best time to release XVI PC will be after Dawntrail. I think its best to expect it around September or October tbh. Thats also in line with their 18 month plan.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,101
Via BNN Bloomberg.ca

Shares in Square Enix fell by their daily limit on Tuesday to a four-month interday low.

Kiryu, 48, has overhauled the company's structure around big-budget games while scrapping many mobile and console games under development to focus on quality over quantity. The publisher's also departing from its practice of releasing its top-tier games first on PlayStation, and will make them available to as many platforms as possible, including Nintendo Co.'s platforms, Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox and the PC, Kiryu said.

But it will take time for such efforts to translate into sales, he said.

"It may be great that the company's overhauled its game-making pipelines and is rebooting the company, but what do they have to sell this year and next?" Toyo Securities analyst Hideki Yasuda said. Jefferies analyst Atul Goyal downgraded his recommendation on the stock to underperform and cut his target price to ¥4,600 per share.

Kiryu's remarks suggest the company's failed to lift sales momentum on Final Fantasy XVI, which investors had anticipated would bolster its bottom line after its June release last year. After the game's tepid reception in its first week of sales, Kiryu had said the company planned to sustain sales of the title over the longterm. No sales figures have been released for Final Fantasy VII Rebirth and Foamstars.

Square Enix's mobile games have also been struggling, with many games shut down in a little over a year due to poor sales. "Our winning formula is no longer effective," Kiryu said. "It took us a long time to adjust the course."



Meeting expecations even at the low end would be fine for SE at this point as all their HD games have been underwhelming. That PS5 exclusivity deal has been quite damaging overall. Maybe thats why Wada really left.

I mean the outlook is not good for Square Enix which is what I was saying in the other thread because right now all the FF brand has is Part 3 in the next few years and outside of FF, whenever they reveal more about KH4 and DQ12 but neither of them are this fiscal year.

Also at this point anyone who thinks Remake part 3 is "safe" and going to be "just fine" is an extremely optimistic individual.

There's no way they're going to cancel Part 3 and its already in development / contracts in place with Sony.
 

Diablos

has a title.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,687
I hope development of FF7R part 3 isn't hindered in any way because of this…
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,649
So what big SE projects do we know of? There's Kingdom Hearts 4, Dragon Quest 12, DQ3 remake, FF7-3... anything else? Anything that could conceivably come out within a year?
 

Son of Sparda

"This guy are sick" says The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,812
FF16 is the game that controversially didn't have any/many POC's in it?
It's the game where a lot of non-brown/non-middle eastern people decided that middle eastern/brown people are just white people with tans and don't count as PoC, yes.

It's also the game with horrible sexism and misogynistic undertones, but since those aren't superficially obvious in first glance from jiggling boobs and asses, a lot of people are fine with it.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,727
The current sales pitch ain't great.

I don't really think there is a solution. Not that will make everyone happy. FF as a franchise just does not have the kind of appeal it used to because it keeps bouncing around in genres and the games take so long to make that it's impossible to keep a fanbase entrenched because even if you like a given FF game, there's no chance in hell the next one will have anything in common with it.

The series is simply too many different things to too many people now, and that overextension makes it impossible to retain a captive audience. Square's staff and producers seem super proud of the "FF can be ANYTHING!!!!!!!" idea but I just don't think that's healthy for the proliferation of a struggling brand. If FF can be anything, that also means FF is kinda nothing at the same time. "Moogles and Chocobos!" isn't a brand.

So what big SE projects do we know of? There's Kingdom Hearts 4, Dragon Quest 12, DQ3 remake, FF7-3... anything else? Anything that could conceivably come out within a year?

I would really just say KH4, DQ12 and 7-3. DQ3R isn't going to be a big seller outside of Japan.
 

entut1

Member
Mar 31, 2023
663
The thing is that expanding your development out to that many platforms has its drawbacks, and also including Switch 2 in day one launch consideration basically kills any ambition or technical growth the series COULD have dead in its tracks. It's not as simple as "just make more versions of the game" - now the game's entire core design has to be built around the worst platform. Which means every game will be a PS4 game in its core essence and just "prettier" on the other three platforms. That's not a GREAT sales pitch for Final Fantasy.

I'm gonna be mean for a second and just say...I don't think FF has anything if it isn't pushing technology. The series has progressively sanded off every single bit of identity it used to have over the past decade or so, that I'm not sure what's left if they can't even claim "AAA graphics and tech" as their calling card.
I think what you need to consider is... does it need to be even prettier to sell more? or does it need to have a larger audience?

Nintendo learned this lesson decades ago. It was only a matter of time before the industry was going to get there eventually.
 

MrPink

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,343
Honestly not expecting 16 to have much impact on PC either, but I don't know what Square's expectations are. Just feel like 16's reception wasn't strong enough to have people salivating for it several months down the line.
 

NukeRunner

Member
Feb 8, 2024
436
Kinda shows the narrative about the sales of 16 were not in bad faith, a lot of people kept claiming Square would be happy with that result and it seemed obvious it wouldn't, it barely felt like it even released.
 

Geg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,621
I loved both XVI and Rebirth so this sucks. I hope they can find a way to turn things around, but yeah like people have said the fact that there aren't any other big releases on the horizon other than Dawntrail and the pc release of XVI is worrying.

So despite people trying to push one FF game above the other to fit their narratives, in the end everybody lost...
It's the end of Wano all over again
 

Fanuilos

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,200
I'm not against the ARPG angle, but uh, maybe they try turn-based. Idk, I bought rebirth but haven't played it yet and was disappointed with 16 and didn't finish it. 14 is also in a weird spot imo, but that's the safest bet/least of their worries.
 

MaverickHunterAsh

Good Vibes Gaming
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
1,429
Los Angeles, CA.
Damn shame. Rebirth is one of the best, most impressive games modern Square has ever made, and that itself is a high bar. FFXVI was really good too. I just hope Remake part 3 isn't impacted and the Remake trilogy is completed as originally envisioned.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,008
I feel like we go through this dance with Square every few years.

As I said before with Square. A solution is more Octopath Traveler/FF tactics style games. Lower the budget considerably, pump out a new title every year or two with an experimental story/plot. Use that title to train your next generation of FF developers and experiment with the formula.
 

ChocoBuddy

Banned
Apr 9, 2024
254
Also at this point anyone who thinks Remake part 3 is "safe" and going to be "just fine" is an extremely optimistic individual.

Yeah I don't think that game isn't going to be affected in some way because of this. It sounds like Rebirth just didn't do well at all, which SE obviously didn't expect.

We're already in uncharted territory with a 3 part remake like this, I dunno what's gonna happen lol.
 

Toth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,149
So is that article saying they wanted FFXVI to bolster their bottom line? That's a tall order for a PS5 exclusive game that was likely very pricey. Maybe they expected the PC version earlier? Also, there seems to be a lot of 'suggests' in that article.
 

Bebpo

Member
Feb 4, 2018
4,787
What does "safe" and "just fine" mean? Are you implying they won't make Part 3 at all?

There's no way they're going to cancel Part 3 and its already in development / contracts in place with Sony.

It will definitely come out.

But if you think SE is going to throw the same amount of money that they did into Rebirth into it, only to post another fiscal year of losing tons of money because of it.....
It's a known issue at this point for SE, they did not know this before Rebirth came out.

Imo, there is 0% chance that part 3's development isn't dramatically effected by these sales. They need to make a product that makes them money. I'd guess the simplest way would be to cut the scope down beyond the main scenario that's already in voice recording. But I know nothing about AAA development so I'm not going to assume the best way for SE to get part 3 in a shape where it can successfully make money on its end budget.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,649
I would really just say KH4, DQ12 and 7-3. DQ3R isn't going to be a big seller outside of Japan.

Is DQ3 still the most popular Dragon Quest game in Japan or am I just showing my age?

Also, given the length of development on DQ3 remake and the gap since we've heard anything new about it, I'm guessing it's not just DQ3 with 2.5D graphics. I'm guessing there's either new content that connects it to later games OR it's turned into Dragon Quest Trilogy remake.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,498
100%

Final Fantasy needs its BOTW moment. They can and should use Rebirth as the foundation to achieve that, especially with the tone and how amazing the combat is, but they're not gonna achieve that brand invigoration with a sequel that's heavily plot-reliant on both Remake and the original FF7 at the same time (as much as I love them), they need a fresh start with that Rebirth magic applied to it

I want an original open world Final Fantasy with lots of charm, a job system, and something similar to Rebirth's combat. IMO there would be a lot of potential with that.
It's gonna be years I feel until FF has a chance at a BotW moment.
Don't think 7r part 3 has a chance of being that given it's narrative positioning. The only team that could make a follow up based on the foundations in rebirth in a reasonable time is also occupied with 7r part 3. So even if they decide to keep on that design road it's probably 3 years till part 3 releases and then optimistically another 5 until the next game from that team assuming also they largely keep together. Also how is gonna an even weaker performance of part 3 affect their ability to pitch their vision after?
Add on top of that 17 itself is probably quite far away as well.
Dunno how they wanna do it but if Square wants a BotW moment they gotta build an audience and deliver a product that can build an audience that is in love with it vs one that just changes from game to game.

People can hate pokemon all they want but clearly staying the same and having consistent releases does a lot on keeping that franchise in the public mindset and evergreen for people as it passes generations of players. You might not like pokemon anymore right now as a game but clearly younger players do.
Clearly the value of 40 something boomers that don't even have the time to play anymore liking FF7 from 23 years ago pales as a strategy in comparison.
Of course I don't feel it has to be either or but it's maybe time to really think about the audience Square is trying to build up to a BotW moment.
Fromsoft did it over a span of 10 years rising from niche hardcore game to Elden Ring phenomenon.