Its a moot point now anyway because thats what they will be doing moving forward.
[Bloomberg] Sales of FFXVI, VII Rebirth, and Foamstars failed to meet expectations
- Thread starter Clippy
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Its a moot point now anyway because thats what they will be doing moving forward.
The hook needs to be developing an identity again.
Focus on making a couple games with more similar stories, similar battle systems, similar music, etc. Less individuality of directors would be a huge boon in this situation.
When each game feels so radically different from 12 to 13 to 15 to 16, there's no brand identity.
7 through 10 all felt a lot more similar to one another and that's when FF's brand identity was at its peak as the definitive JRPG in the west. Go back to building an identity and really focus on making the games evoke one another. 17 through 20 need to feel like similar games. Not like the mish mash of 12 through 16.
And yes, abandon graphics fidelity. Literally nobody cares that BotW and TotK and Odyssey and Animal Crossing and whatever else are on Switch. They're amazing games first and foremost that look pretty good for the hardware they're on... nobody is buying any of those games for graphics fidelity.
Switch 2 will be more than good enough for FF games, it needs to be getting them day 1 just like PS5/Xbox X; if that means getting off the cutting edge fidelity line, then so be it.
DQ3R maybe can make it, but KH4/DQ12 which I assume are their next big games will probably just come out in the next FY at best.
That said they have their most important release this FY, which is Dawntrail. Right now MMOs are SE most significant source of income, with mobile coming in second. I assume HD games segment will continue to struggle for the time being.
FF14 is going to have to carry SE hard because they are going to be hurting for revenue. Just no legs on these major titles anymore.
It really makes you wonder how far away FF17 is and what team is working on it. Feels like it might only have been in preprod by the 16 team while the rest was still working on the DLC at best. The next "big" thing is probably KH4 and after that it's FF7 part 3? I guess DQ12 also slots in somewhere in that timeframe but last time we heard about it was a new producer coming on that project.
I think comparing Persona 5 + Persona 5 Royale worldwide sales across all platforms with Final Fantasy VII Remake + Final Fantasy VII Remake Integrate worldwide sales across all platforms puts them really close. Both should be in the 7 million range, and Persona 5 might actually edge FFVII out being 4 years older.
If they were to narrow down an identity to go with, I wonder what it would even be. Turn based does seem to do well these days if you add some style. Personally I'd go for the FF7R hybrid system since it's my favorite.
Eh, Rebirth is the 2nd part of a trilogy. I think it'll have strong legs after part 3 drops and it moves beyond PS5.
Real shame to hear though, the game is incredible, deserves it's place at the top of Opencritic for 2024 so far.
Real shame to hear though, the game is incredible, deserves it's place at the top of Opencritic for 2024 so far.
I can interpret simple data, thanks. You didn't need to include a snippy comment for no reason. Square is never shy about commenting on the performance of its titles. If they state that a title is performing within expectations /at the time/, then it's worth believing them. There were loads of gaming journalists and keyboard warriors who were giddy to run headlines or create 30 page threads every time FFXVI and sales came up. The discourse on the game became toxic quickly and people twisted any little thing to prove whatever point they were trying to make.
I mean if the end result of this is the same caliber of games, but released on every platform possible day-and-date, then cool I'm glad they underperformed.
Dark day for a big FF fan like me. They release great games but their sales suffer for it. Then again, it wound is partly selbst inflicted. No ports ready even after exclusivity is up, games releasing too close to each other, in thw case of FF7 dubious naming schemes and game overload and not so great marketing.
I hope with their new vision they can turn the ship around and things can be better for 7R part 3 and XVII (and Rebirth + XVI with hopefully upcoming ports).
I hope with their new vision they can turn the ship around and things can be better for 7R part 3 and XVII (and Rebirth + XVI with hopefully upcoming ports).
For a good while, it was their second best selling game after Final Fantasy XIV:
Square-Enix's top selling Steam game is currently FF14. The second top selling game? PowerWash Simulator.
https://store.steampowered.com/developer/squareenix Alright, I'll bite. I need a chill game to play this weekend. Is it worth it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unvuuweAW_w https://store.steampowered.com/app/1290000/PowerWash_Simulator/ Please note, I know that FuturLab is the developer...
www.resetera.com
One other issue SE is facing is that there may be a sizeable number of FF14 players that don't come back for Dawntrail since Endwalker was the conclusion of basically the entire FF14 and a lot of people were happy with it and aren't planning on coming back for what looks like "party island side adventure" (I am personally excited for party island side adventure).
If FF14 revenue goes down, that just makes their situation even worse.
The funny thing is that Dawntrail might still do that next month if they play their cards right
Rebirth is one of the best games Square Enix has put out in a long time but I'm not surprised. There's a lot working against it. PS5 exclusive, middle chapter in a Remake trilogy project with a lot of complicated conversations about it's relation to the original, releasing during an onslaught of high quality releases for RPG fans, Remake itself not being representative of the quality of Rebirth, etc.
XVI I have less positive feelings for as it represents basically the opposite of what I want from Final Fantasy in almost every way. But indeed it just seems like Final Fantasy in general needs some kind of shake up and redirection.
XVI I have less positive feelings for as it represents basically the opposite of what I want from Final Fantasy in almost every way. But indeed it just seems like Final Fantasy in general needs some kind of shake up and redirection.
It doesn't help that post-Endwalker have been the most boring two years of the game ever, both in terms of story and content.
This.
Mochizuki is a very strong journalist and no matter how people try and frame it, or what the companies may say externally, regularly hits the mark for the actual information. These games did not do as well as they'd liked privately. PSVR2 completely fell off the map and is essentially nonexistent now, etc. People don't like to accept bad news if it isn't in line with their hopes.
FF14 is probably the one steady ship title that has only performed better over time. Releases are always largely on time with deviations of a few weeks at most and the player base has just kept on increasing.
This is only kind of related but since I've seen posts in the past few days of people talking about games like 16 and Rebirth coming to the Switch 2 it has me wondering like, if the Switch 2 is supposedly around the strength of a PS4 to PS4 Pro, could a PS4 Pro run those games? I don't know enough about the technical side of things to know what exactly makes those "PS5 games" and what kind of sacrifices would need to be made to get them running on weaker hardware
I don't view it as a bad day for an FF fan.
The mainline series has not had any sort of consistent vision; it needs to show that for the next couple of mainline iterations. As a poster above said, all they've focused on is maximizing graphics fidelity as the hook of the series, but if they can get off that train and focus on more important aspects of games that cause players to come back, the titles can feed off one another in a positive way.
The series has been all over the place since 12.
If this leads to some sort of more consistent FF identity for the next batch of mainline FF games (whether battle system/gameplay loop wise or story wise) that could have a ton of benefits for the long run.
The good news is every mainline game is another attempt at renewal, so 17 will be another chance.
15 and 7 Remake were both great performers in terms of sales by pretty much every metric in every region.
Well reading the article, he is making a lot of assumptions. I do wonder if this will spurn SE to release something to ease stockholders and fans.
I won't come back for Dawntrail, but I'll be resubscribing at some point to finish Endwalker! That'll still be revenue for them... right? :D
I just don't think it's gonna work. Even trying to establish a "consistent identity" would take 10-15 years, and they don't have that kind of time. The gaps between games are getting so big that people are literally aging out of the franchise between installments.
Here's another issue Square has to joust with: young people don't play RPGs. They aren't interested in RPGs. They play gacha games and Fortnite/Apex. The genre - yes, EVEN PERSONA - is a boomer genre for old people. And every year, less people are into it than there were the year before. It's a shrinking demographic. I keep saying it, but I just don't think there's actually any fixing this. They can put bandages on the bullet holes with pivots, but the blood loss has already set in. FF will never be what it was in the PS2 era again, and Square needs to make their peace with that.
I also think people are going to be in for a wakeup call when Persona 6 releases on all platforms simultaneously and doesn't have the benefit of getting released four times in six years. It will probably sell less than P5 did overall and reach critical mass faster, because you don't have people buying the game over and over again on multiple platforms.
Let's put it this way: Rebirth looks pretty messy on PS5 already, especially in performance mode. Trying to downport it to a PS4-level console would be devastating, visually. Is it possible? Maybe. But the visual downgrade needed to make that happen might be too much for the game.
I haven't found any firm sales data, but just looking at Steam review counts, Powerwash Simulator was a massive success for an indie game.
I'm expecting Persona 6 will be a breakthrough moment for the series. Wouldn't surprise me if the first year of P6 sales exceed P5+P5R combine LTD. All the ingredients are there for a breakaway success - P5 was massively popular and critically acclaimed, they've kept interest in the series strong, there's a huge gap in time since the last main entry so anticipation is high, and they're moved to a multiplatform & worldwide simultaneous release strategy.
2022 -
Final Fantasy 14: Endwalker carries Square Enix to a year of improved game sales
In a year of minor gains, Final Fantasy 14 saw enormous growth
2023 - Idk. I thought Octopath II did well but apparently it sold a lot worse than the original despite much higher critic reviews. That really surprised me when I just googled that.
It shows its from the windows store, not Steam or PS. So i bet those sales aren't even pass 1 million.For a good while, it was their second best selling game after Final Fantasy XIV:
Square-Enix's top selling Steam game is currently FF14. The second top selling game? PowerWash Simulator.
https://store.steampowered.com/developer/squareenix Alright, I'll bite. I need a chill game to play this weekend. Is it worth it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unvuuweAW_w https://store.steampowered.com/app/1290000/PowerWash_Simulator/ Please note, I know that FuturLab is the developer...
I mean, every popular indie is a success. I just haven't seen anyone saying it sold 7 million cause we would already have the sequel.
It was super obvious from day 1 that FF7 was underperforming, but people who don't really know anything about sales kept shouting others down and pointing out chart positions. It was also obvious 16 would underperform in the long run.
Nah, it was pretty easy to see the trend that the game was underperforming. Square just didn't want to admit it at the time.
I don't think this is gonna happen. A LOT of P5's sales are repeat purchases. People who bought P5 also bought P5R, and then you have the people who owned both versions and also re-bought the game on Steam or Xbox or Switch.
I think P6 will do more than fine but expecting it to be this absolutely ABSURD sales growth OVER P5+P5R combined, when a HUGE portion of P5's sales were double and triple dips, is likely going to lead to disappointment.
Will P6 still be popular without being the main P3/P4/P5/Metaphor team making it?
P6 is without a doubt going to be heavily compared to P3/P4/P5/Metaphor when it comes out and if the B-team isn't as good, it could get shredded in reviews and word of mouth from the fanbase.
I don't think P6 being bigger than P5 is a sure thing at all. Could happen. Could not happen. Personally I'm less interested in P6 because of the developers and more interested in Metaphor.
I just hope that this doesn't impact FF7 Part 3, Rebirth is fucking amazing and it's one of those "how is this game even real" kind of experiences.
I really hope that they take the whole multiplat strategy seriously because they need to do so.
I really hope that they take the whole multiplat strategy seriously because they need to do so.
This may not be new for them, but it seems that inhouse developed AA titles are really dead.
If they had something positive to spin i doubt they would've waited for the stock to drop 25% over the last year.
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Asano team projects seem to be like that it's quite weird.
Bravely Default was like that.
If a Triangle Strategy 2 happens I wouldn't be surprised if it can't pass 1 mil.
Those people seem to have no issues in launching new IPs with the worst names and getting into the million range but their sequels don't retain, refresh nor expand the playerbase it seems.
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I mean Square is on the 18 month plan "copium".
I dunno what their expectations for PC 16 are but personally I can't see it doing more than a few extra 100ks. If they're hoping for another fast mil of sales it seems unrealistic. They squandered that chance with the long wait time(whether it was because of production reasons or exclusivity reasons).
Sorry, I'm one of those that got Ff16 day one but because I was underwhelmed, completely ignored the DLC.
I'm a little sad that the ps5 user base in general is not paying much attention to Final fantasy anymore, but honestly imo Ff16 wasn't going to be the game to reignite interest in the franchise and sell gangbusters. They needed a Baldurs gate 3 level of game to do that.
FF7 remake project, like others said, has a few things holding it back, in addition to the waning interest in FF. However I hope they realise they've hit on a great new formula with rebirth, it didn't do well for PS or SE, but it was a dream game for many of us. The third and final game should get some boost by simply being the one to close out the trilogy and I hope they don't skimp on it (although admittedly Rebirth had a few spots where I didn't mind if they trimmed back).
It's reassuring though that in spite of its sales performance they recognized the directors achievement and gave him a promotion.
I'm a little sad that the ps5 user base in general is not paying much attention to Final fantasy anymore, but honestly imo Ff16 wasn't going to be the game to reignite interest in the franchise and sell gangbusters. They needed a Baldurs gate 3 level of game to do that.
FF7 remake project, like others said, has a few things holding it back, in addition to the waning interest in FF. However I hope they realise they've hit on a great new formula with rebirth, it didn't do well for PS or SE, but it was a dream game for many of us. The third and final game should get some boost by simply being the one to close out the trilogy and I hope they don't skimp on it (although admittedly Rebirth had a few spots where I didn't mind if they trimmed back).
It's reassuring though that in spite of its sales performance they recognized the directors achievement and gave him a promotion.
You are right, but still. Rebirth and XVI both deserve more sales than they go.
RPGs are selling just fine though outside of 16 and 7 Rebirth.
15 launched in 2016 and 7 Remake in 2020 and both had great sales numbers across the board; each hit 700k physical opening in Japan, and they're #1 and #2 by $ sales for FFs in the US. Yes the late 90s peaks will never return when Square could pump out multi-million mega sellers every year, but that doesn't need to be the goal.
Perhaps it's a more niche genre than it was perhaps in the 90s and 00s, but it hasn't disappeared; FF should still have the branding to be the best performing global JRPG outside of Pokemon.
When you look at the JRPG scene, there's a bunch that are consistently coming out and hitting 2-3 million sales for mainline/remake iterations. FF should be above those in a class of its own, only below Pokemon.
But that comes back to brand identity, and it needs to develop that across several mainline titles (say 17-20) and they need to be coming every 4-5 years if possible. Just establish a model that says "this is what an FF is in terms of battle system/gameplay loop, story, music, etc." and have them be considerably more similar for a bunch of mainline iterations than they've been from 12 to 16.
I suspect that would be a bit hard, given how the time span between P5 and P5R was substantial enough that a large number of sales for R would be existing P5 fans as well. If Persona doesn't lose any momentum with P6, I could see sales of 5-6 million being possible over time. There's no real indication in terms of general series demand that it is quite there for an instant 7 million jump just yet.
FFXIV Endwalker surpassed expectations.
Did we all forget how SE had to temporarily halt new sales of the game because there were way too many people trying to log in for an entire month? The 2+ hour long queue times?
It's going to be interesting to see how Dawntrail performs. When Dawntrail went up for preorder about a month and a half ago, SE's storefront servers couldn't handle the amount of people trying to preorder for the first few days.
It was even super obvious to me that this was going to be Rebirth's fate even a whole month before release. When I explained why I thought there was a strong possibility it wouldn't even hit XVI's sales throughout February, I just kept getting the kind of responses you'd only ever see from FF fans who decided to make hating on XVI part of their identity, and didn't care to see what the rest of the industry is doing and what the franchise looks like to everyone else on the outside. Though they probably care now.
FF ERA only saw a project heavily catering to them on an almost mastrubatory level and thought it'd succeed based on perceived brand strength alone, while all I saw was a project that was failing to convince today's wider gaming community about why they should even care.
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Well, he's paid to do analysis -- and he's undoubtedly getting information off the record that plays into his statements. Bloomberg is one of the biggest news agencies in the world.. they're not hiring hacks. I'm not suggesting you think he is one, but so many people on here clearly do because he says things they don't want to hear.
That should also put a rest to the theory that "Sony paid for the game developpement/a good part of it".
they both have some seriously huge flaws in them, whether it is marketing or platform choice or design decisions, etc
i dont think it's a shame that they both have problem with sales. a company can't just make repeatedly bad calls and expect things to just work out. what's sad is people inside SE suffering from decisions made by higher-ups that clearly did not work
Well, it could still be true in an absolute sense that the games could be so expensive and inefficiently resourced, that even with Sony paying a chunk for exclusivity, the overall result is still a loss for S-E. What it does mean is that the theory is irrelevant even if it is true because it clearly didn't tip the needle enough.
I think people overestimate the amount of money exchanged for a 6 month/3 month exclusivity deal.
Though this might hurt some die-hard fans, SE needs to manage the Final Fantasy ip as Capcom manages their Resident Evil one. If SE wants FF to still be relevant and profitable they have to improve their efficiency and its output, make it fully multiplatform releasing it on every current platform to recoup investment and grow its audience. They can still sell some sort of exclusive content as Capcom does, but they can't still try to survive by following the same business model it used to work back at the PS1/PS2/PS3 eras
It seems you have no concept of something reaching a wide audience but failing to capitalize on that reach with a fully fleshed out product. I don't think it's a mystery as to how 15 failed to feel like a complete, cohesive game in quite a few regards as a result of its supremely troubled development. And I say this as someone who loved it enough to do every side mission and extras on the vanilla version.
When a game has the fortune of netting a playerbase that size with a divisive product, it stands to reason that a good portion of that base may come away disappointed resulting in less of that audience returning for the next title.
We see this often in other media. DC rushed out of the gate in an attempt to catch up with Marvel's cinematic universe and initially netted massive numbers with their earlier films as well thanks to the cape craze. You can say it was also "bonkers" how much money Man of Steel or Batman V Superman made. But because of that mixed audience reception, the same thing happened here where there was less enthusiasm to turn up for the next chapter in the story.
Yeah I don't mean to re-litigate the discussion for that subject, but it's kind of a "Last Jedi" situation where something was critically well received but highly divisive amongst some of the audience. It's no question that FFXVI a polished quality product, and yeah would have sold more multiplatform, but it's equally clear there was a gulf in how people received the characters/tone/gameplay choices, etc that didn't give this the tail the brand needed.
My logic as to why there is stagnation in the numbers is rooted in the divisive reception to these titles- there's sort of a cumulative "damage" (and I'm using that as sort of an umbrella term that encompasses the range from the portion of the audience that hated something to just thinking it was okay) that ultimately results in less people returning for the next mainline title.
But circling back on what we both agree on, like you said- it failed to grow the brand. depending on the time of day or who you ask, you can ascribe that stagnation to 15/16's WoM, tone, disinterest in RPGs, timing, any number of things, but the result is the same.
These used to be titles that were bleeding edge showcases for console tech, storytelling and characters that you simply wouldn't see anywhere else, and worlds that set the bar for fantasy and depth. The tech thing aside (the visual arms race is sinking the industry as we know it) SE needs to really regroup on making sure the next original title isn't green-lit until they're confident it can check check the other boxes in the same way as they used to.
That might involve younger leadership (which we're seeing some of), fresher faces, more creative risks, any number of things. But something has to change.