Bloomberg: Sony PSVR2 Headset Off to Slow Start, “price cut may be needed to avoid complete disaster”

[denverchickennuggets]

That's the conundrum. It's a niche product. It's expensive as hell and money is generally tight. Games take long to make and cost a fucking ton. Do you really want your top studios spending 3-5 years to develop a triple-A game to be played on VR with a installed base of half a million? What about the other 25 million players who own a PS5 but not a VR2? How do you support them too?

This is a niche product and will continue to be. World is not ready for vr and no one figured out those to properly support it yet. It's indies indies indies, an extra mode in a 1st party game and that's it.

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Anyone following it should've seen it coming. VR is still a niche, especially with the high price tag. To top it off Sony didn't really have any "killer" apps to make the thing a must have.

I think VR has a tough battle to fight in the sense that I think most people prefer 2D/non VR experiences because they can play them longer and without sickness. VR is cool and has a wow factor when you use it, but it's still hard to get into something VR for more than 20-40 minutes before feeling sick and headachey, at least speaking for myself in this regard.

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That, and depending on the game there is a very real sense of 'flight/fight' that you are less likely to feel with 2D gaming. Case in point, the difference between playing something like RE Village 'flat' and in VR. I'd love to experience the VR version but I don't know if I could stomach it for more than a few moments at a time. Generally I have to be in a certain mood to commit myself to a VR session vs just picking up a controller and playing on a TV.

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I think another thing is that a lot of people, myself included, don't actually want a fully immersive headset experience. I like being able to pause my game and talk to my wife, etc. The headset adds an additional barrier to the outside world, and I'm not sure it's one that many people want.

 

[MattB]

Make PC drivers and see what happens. Please

 

[Dragonyeuw]

I think another thing is that a lot of people, myself included, don't actually want a fully immersive headset experience. I like being able to pause my game and talk to my wife, etc. The headset adds an additional barrier to the outside world, and I'm not sure it's one that many people want.

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Yes, while I got used to it over time a big issue for me was having your periperhal vision cut off, it's a bit unsettling being cut off from the real world like that. It's even worse when you're by yourself because at least with my wife in the room there's a certain comfort knowing someone else is there with you.

 

[OtakuCoder]

Something that I don't think gets mentioned enough is that Sony's shuttering of its smaller studios looks to have really bitten them on the arse here.

Wipeout likely won't get anything because they shut Psygnosis. Everybody's Golf? Oops, Clap Hanz got away.

Your Insomniacs and Naughty Dogs likely won't want the distraction of VR, so now that GT7's out you're left hoping that Asobi and a few other studios (like London? Maybe?) can fill that first-party void on their own.

 

[Synth]

Not to mention probably one of the biggest challenges in VR - actual mobility. The solution to which, right now at least, seems to be to strap someone into a treadmill which completely moots the issue of a wired/wireless headset. In that case, I'd definitely prefer wired since wireless offers no real benefit in this scenario while wired can provide higher fidelity visual experience and no worries about battery life.

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Mobility is one of the worst cases for being wired, either with a treadmill or not.

If you have a large playspace, a wire restricts how much of it you can move around, and you'll feel the wire losing slack as you approach the limits of its reach.

If you're playing a fast paced game (such as Echo VR), losing track of which direction is your origin is easy and common, which also means you lose track of where your wire is originating from. In slower games this isn't an issue as you start to instinctually feel when you need to step over the cable, or when you can no longer turn in one direction because you're starting to coil yourself. In a fast paced game this can easily sneak up on you, and be a significant inconvenience.

With a treadmill the wire becomes even worse, as you're now strapped into a device that is supposed to allow for more natural locomotion, meaning you're more inclined to turn your body itself rather than using sticks to turn yourself virtually. So unless you have an additional means of cable management, such as the cable being suspended from the ceiling, the issue with a wire coiling as it rotates continously in one direction becomes a bigger problem, especially as you're now strapped in and not as easily able to grab and move it out of the way as easily when required.

The other issue with having a wired headset along with a treadmill is the simple inconvenience factor that is always present with a wired solution. Your headset has to be played in the same space that the console itself is. Most people will have to play their PSVR2 in the family room, in front of the television, because that's where the PS5 lives. If you were to add a treadmill into the equation, it would basically need to live there too.

Having a headset be wired carries a great many negatives that'll work to keep VR niche. It may not matter as much today where the entire landscape for VR is still niche... but if/when VR sees any real mainstream adoption, having it be tethered will likely remain a death sentence for any given headset.

 

[bdbdbd]

So unless you have an additional means of cable management

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Like this is some kind of major stretch for anyone considering assembling, installing and regularly strapping themselves into a VR treadmill? This is nitpicking and its completely unnecessary because I am not arguing against going wireless at all. Just that, maybe right now, we're not quite in a period of time where "wireless or nothing" is the right motto and we don't need to be so aggressively belligerent towards the idea that some headsets may still use a wire.

There are "simple inconvenience factors" present with wireless solutions as well - battery life, weight, cost, and compression quality among them. Now, you can say these are worthwhile tradeoffs IYHO, and that's fine. But they *are* inconveniences nonetheless that are certainly at least on the same scale of some of the conveniences to having a wire.

And anyone trying to maneuver in a space untethered while basically blinded by a VR headset is going to have a host of balance and awareness issues that being wireless isn't going to help them with. The "VR hilarity ensues" youtube vids practically link themselves.

Mainstream adoption is years down the road, at least 1-2 major iterations on headset hardware. I'm not talking about that period in time, I'm clearly talking about the here and now. Wired and wireless both have their pros and cons right now and I certainly expect that assessment to increasingly weigh in favor of wireless as time passes.

 

[Synth]

Like this is some kind of major stretch for anyone considering assembling, installing and regularly strapping themselves into a VR treadmill? This is nitpicking and its completely unnecessary because I am not arguing against going wireless at all. Just that, maybe right now, we're not quite in a period of time where "wireless or nothing" is the right motto and we don't need to be so aggressively belligerent towards the idea that some headsets may still use a wire.

There are "simple inconvenience factors" present with wireless solutions as well - battery life, weight, cost, and compression quality among them. Now, you can say these are worthwhile tradeoffs IYHO, and that's fine. But they *are* inconveniences nonetheless that are certainly at least on the same scale of some of the conveniences to having a wire.

And anyone trying to maneuver in a space untethered while basically blinded by a VR headset is going to have a host of balance and awareness issues that being wireless isn't going to help them with. The "VR hilarity ensues" youtube vids practically link themselves.

Mainstream adoption is years down the road, at least 1-2 major iterations on headset hardware. I'm not talking about that period in time, I'm clearly talking about the here and now. Wired and wireless both have their pros and cons right now and I certainly expect that assessment to increasingly weigh in favor of wireless as time passes.

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I'd say bringing treadmills in as an argument is enough of a stretch as is. VR treadmills are as niche within VR, as VR itself is within gaming as a whole. With that said though, I answered based on you introducing it as a factor, and then arguing wireless had no benefits in that use case. It absolutely does, and in many ways being strapped into a treadmill makes the inconveniences of a wire more pronounced than they are in standard VR use cases.

I didn't argue "wireless or nothing". I argued that a treadmill...

completely moots the issue of a wired/wireless headset

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...isn't remotely true. I'm not acting aggressively belligerent towards the idea that some headsets may still use a wire. I own this headset we're talking about... obviously I'm not as militant as you're making out. If anything I'd argue you respond more aggressively to the suggestion that wireless contributes significantly to a VR headsets mainstream accessibility and acceptance. There's still a place for wired headsets, yes... but for a headset aimed towards the more mainstream audience that PlayStation as a brand typically serves, the wired route may be well be more of a detriment than for something like say a Valve Index, precisely because a PlayStation is typically less likely to be set up in a space specifically designed to accommodate the enthusiast and their passions.

And yes, there are downsides to a headset being wireless, but one of the main ones you cite "battery life" is actually kinda irrelevant, because any wireless headset can become wired if low on battery, but not the other way around... and if a wire is such a non-factor, then plugging the headset in anywhere (and not only within 5m from the console) shouldn't be a problem.

 

[bdbdbd]

JFC, Synth , I'm not saying you're belligerent. You're inserting yourself into a conversation in progress and overlooking the context. I'm explaining the context.

Look, I get it, I used the word "completely" so you come in and tell me wired + treadmill is bad in "many ways" which apparently so far is just some basic cable management and hardware co-location. I'll alter my statement to say the differences between wired/wireless are largely negligible. It's not completely moot, but it's close enough that it's utterly pedantic to argue about it.

 

[writhingcorpse897]

Fully aware of the sarcasm here. In all seriousness though it's too much hassle to be a game changer so to speak. Having to wear something to play a game just isn't as easy as turning on the TV picking up a controller - or double clicking a game icon, and switching from work to game.

Gaming is a media form, and we tend to like media forms that are easy to ingest. If you alter and increase the difficulty with which I have to invest to even start the thing up, or play for however long I'd like then it's not going to be some large scale success.

Games are always going to be played with a screen, and a handheld controller. That's probably never going to change on a mass-scale. Don't care how many folks argue that the future will be different. Convenience is life.

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I agree with everything you said.

 

[elLOaSTy]

I think we should all be waiting at least 6-12 months before we start with Doom. People dont have money right now, consoles are more expensive than they were at launch 2.5 years ago. It's going to be a slow burn but they put amazing tech into this headset, so if it drops to $400 in a year or so that will be great to get loads of new people in. Either way this system is designed for another 6 years or so of runway, lets give it a beat shall we.

 

[Deleted member 93062]

I think we should all be waiting at least 6-12 months before we start with Doom. People dont have money right now, consoles are more expensive than they were at launch 2.5 years ago. It's going to be a slow burn but they put amazing tech into this headset, so if it drops to $400 in a year or so that will be great to get loads of new people in. Either way this system is designed for another 6 years or so of runway, lets give it a beat shall we.

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Aside from Apple products, how many products that struggle selling at launch make a turn around in at least 6-12 months?

 

[elLOaSTy]

Aside from Apple products, how many products that struggle selling at launch make a turn around in at least 6-12 months?

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I dont think an accessory to a console that is selling well is a comparable thing to any apple products.

Honestly we can really only compare this to the original PSVR which was less money and came halfway through the lifecycle of that console. Maybe we shouldn't be in such a hurry to make assumptions as to what will come down the road, the obvious problem here is the price is too high, that will change we are in an almost incomparable time having most of this generation last through a pandemic and major shipping and chip shortage.

The fact is no one knows what will come and it's foolish to pretend anyone does.

 

[Dragonyeuw]

I think we should all be waiting at least 6-12 months before we start with Doom. People dont have money right now, consoles are more expensive than they were at launch 2.5 years ago. It's going to be a slow burn but they put amazing tech into this headset, so if it drops to $400 in a year or so that will be great to get loads of new people in. Either way this system is designed for another 6 years or so of runway, lets give it a beat shall we.

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Are people going to be in a better financial position this time next year, though? Even if the first year doesn't produce gangbuster sales, the system has to have enough sales momentum to encourage development, which in turn leads to more sales. It's the perpentual chicken and egg nature of VR to this point.

 

[elLOaSTy]

Are people going to be in a better financial position this time next year, though? Even if the first year doesn't produce gangbuster sales, the system has to have enough sales momentum to encourage development, which in turn leads to more sales. It's the perpentual chicken and egg nature of VR to this point.

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It's not as cut and dry as this, costs to produce can still come down over time, it's not just on sales to do that. Sony can also try to be more aggressive with taking a loss or larger one, I would have no issue with this but Its hard to predict considering console prices went up.

However this isn't some bespoke device that no one else makes software for. VR exists on PC and with things like quest, yes not having strong sales support in year 1 is going to delay bigger and more exclusive titles, however so long as software sales can be good enough, or if Sony can provide incentives to developers there will still be plenty of games being made in VR that can be ported an also built for PC/PSVR2/Quest.

It's not the chicken and egg when there are other chickens already, games are being made for VR, they will be ported to PSVR2 barring exclusive deals.

 

[Dragonyeuw]

It's not as cut and dry as this, costs to produce can still come down over time, it's not just on sales to do that. Sony can also try to be more aggressive with taking a loss or larger one, I would have no issue with this but Its hard to predict considering console prices went up.

However this isn't some bespoke device that no one else makes software for. VR exists on PC and with things like quest, yes not having strong sales support in year 1 is going to delay bigger and more exclusive titles, however so long as software sales can be good enough, or if Sony can provide incentives to developers there will still be plenty of games being made in VR that can be ported an also built for PC/PSVR2/Quest.

It's not the chicken and egg when there are other chickens already, games are being made for VR, they will be ported to PSVR2 barring exclusive deals.

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What factors make those costs come down over time? I would have thought steady sales would lead to the economies of scale that leads to reduction in costs, but I won't claim by any means to be an economic expert on how these things work, or even what the stress point is for Sony to consider dropping the price. The question also remains, if the common talking point is 'the economy' then I would wager that will be the issue for the foreseeable future into 2024, so it will still be a question of affordabillity even if they managed to lop $100 off the current MSRP.

 

[Clippy]

Aside from Apple products, how many products that struggle selling at launch make a turn around in at least 6-12 months?

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Adding to this: if you're gonna look ahead 12 months you shouldn't only consider the possibility that people will have more money to spend. You should also consider that PSVR2 will no longer be the new thing in VR by that point. It's likely we'll have multiple new VR system launches by then, accompanied by actual marketing campaigns and already compatible with existing VR software for all non-Apple devices.

 

[zoodoo]

Fully aware of the sarcasm here. In all seriousness though it's too much hassle to be a game changer so to speak. Having to wear something to play a game just isn't as easy as turning on the TV picking up a controller - or double clicking a game icon, and switching from work to game.

Gaming is a media form, and we tend to like media forms that are easy to ingest. If you alter and increase the difficulty with which I have to invest to even start the thing up, or play for however long I'd like then it's not going to be some large scale success.

Games are always going to be played with a screen, and a handheld controller. That's probably never going to change on a mass-scale. Don't care how many folks argue that the future will be different. Convenience is life.

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One of the main reasons digital gaming got so popular. I have been playing ps2 recently and every time I want to switch games I go through the same thought process: "yeah I actually have to physically remove the game from the tray and put another disk ". I takes like a minute and I do it but digital is so much more convenient if you are not a collector and just want to play games.

 

[LeMillion]

I'm far from the only person to have this thought, but PSVR2 really strikes me as hardware that just came too late. Sony made a bet that VR would continue to grow, but it slowed down faster that they anticipated. By then, they were already too far along to justify outright cancelling the project.

If they expected VR2 to take off, we'd see better/more marketing and more aggressive pricing. As it stands I see a piece of hardware that's just trying to recoup some losses.

I'd love for Sony to announce software support that proves me wrong in the next 6 to 12 months!

 

[elLOaSTy]

What factors make those costs come down over time? I would have thought steady sales would lead to the economies of scale that leads to reduction in costs, but I won't claim by any means to be an economic expert on how these things work, or even what the stress point is for Sony to consider dropping the price. The question also remains, if the common talking point is 'the economy' then I would wager that will be the issue for the foreseeable future into 2024, so it will still be a question of affordabillity even if they managed to lop $100 off the current MSRP.

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The displays arent custom nor are some of the sensors which is still a really expensive part of it. Those can come down overtime along with the actual manufacturing coming down as they do sell more, especially with this launching outside of holiday.

I also find people being so down on this really kind of shortsighted, Sony never claimed to plan on selling x millions, Im certain their market research had them understanding what sales would be.

Like we cant forget the current economic climate, I mean hell you cant even buy this in retail yet. Do people think Sony is unaware enough of the market for VR to think their sales arent limited by the purchase process.

I suspect when it hits Amazon, Costco, Target, Walmart and Gamestop there will be more sales. Many people have their gaming funds wrapped up in discounts on CC, gift cards and trade in credit.

So I just think maybe we should wait for this to be more than 2 months old before we make strong claims about the future of a platform that it seems even Sony understands is a slow burn partly of their own making.

 

[Dragonyeuw]

The displays arent custom nor are some of the sensors which is still a really expensive part of it. Those can come down overtime along with the actual manufacturing coming down as they do sell more, especially with this launching outside of holiday.

I also find people being so down on this really kind of shortsighted, Sony never claimed to plan on selling x millions, Im certain their market research had them understanding what sales would be.

Like we cant forget the current economic climate, I mean hell you cant even buy this in retail yet. Do people think Sony is unaware enough of the market for VR to think their sales arent limited by the purchase process.

I suspect when it hits Amazon, Costco, Target, Walmart and Gamestop there will be more sales. Many people have their gaming funds wrapped up in discounts on CC, gift cards and trade in credit.

So I just think maybe we should wait for this to be more than 2 months old before we make strong claims about the future of a platform that it seems even Sony understands is a slow burn partly of their own making.

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You're correct here but for my part, I haven't made any proclamations about the device's future one way or another ( and I'm not saying you're addressing the comment about making strong claims to me specifically, I assume that's meant in a general sense, but to be sure....). I'd be curious to know why Sony pushed it into Canadian retail stores( based on what I've read here) but not U.S based ones.

 

[invincible2020]

Lemillion prepare to be proved wrong!

 

[elLOaSTy]

You're correct here but for my part, I haven't made any proclamations about the device's future one way or another ( and I'm not saying you're addressing the comment about making strong claims to me specifically, I assume that's meant in a general sense, but to be sure....). I'd be curious to know why Sony pushed it into Canadian retail stores( based on what I've read here) but not U.S based ones.

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Honestly it could just be the market penetration for online sales is not the same but I would just be guessing.

I am confused as to why they dont sell in stores and maybe it currently being too low margins or it would be too big of a loss to use retail.

And yes I meant the discourse as a whole not you, I just find some of the responses to be really assured about something we have very little knowledge of and is happening during very unique market and social circumstances

 

[duckroll]

I'm far from the only person to have this thought, but PSVR2 really strikes me as hardware that just came too late. Sony made a bet that VR would continue to grow, but it slowed down faster that they anticipated. By then, they were already too far along to justify outright cancelling the project.

If they expected VR2 to take off, we'd see better/more marketing and more aggressive pricing. As it stands I see a piece of hardware that's just trying to recoup some losses.

I'd love for Sony to announce software support that proves me wrong in the next 6 to 12 months!

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I feel that no matter what the PSVR as a proprietary device is doomed. The barrier of entry requiring both PS5 and the VR device is too much for it to ever get mainstream penetration. Same with wired VR headsets on PC previously. The Quest took off because it's a stand alone device that can also work wired with a PC. If Sony tapped into that market making the hardware cross compatible at the very least, then it can ride the wave of VR popularity even as it dwindles and possibly even revive it. But as it is, it's too expensive and too limited.

 

[elLOaSTy]

I feel that no matter what the PSVR as a proprietary device is doomed. The barrier of entry requiring both PS5 and the VR device is too much for it to ever get mainstream penetration. Same with wired VR headsets on PC previously. The Quest took off because it's a stand alone device that can also work wired with a PC. If Sony tapped into that market making the hardware cross compatible at the very least, then it can ride the wave of VR popularity even as it dwindles and possibly even revive it. But as it is, it's too expensive and too limited.

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Barrier of entry is cheaper than buying a PC its only a barrier for people who have a PC, however PSVR2 is by far the best hardware you can get for under $1k when you combine VR/PC cost

 

[stormfire]

View: https://twitter.com/DeekeTweak/status/1645434050360819713

 

[Darknight]

View: https://twitter.com/DeekeTweak/status/1645434050360819713

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That really doesn't tell you anything because they're not comparing the same time period. If rate of sales was linear, sure, that would be true, but launches tend to be more front loaded. So I don't see how you can make that conclusion of comparing one month of sales to five months of sales where they've sold 1/3rd the total of that 5 month period. There's not enough data there to declare that.

 

[big_z]

View: https://twitter.com/DeekeTweak/status/1645434050360819713

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This is some spin in an attempt to create a hopeful image for psvr2. The original psvr had limited launch and was supply constrained for a while. In comparison there are plenty of psvr2 sitting on shelves collecting dust. If there was demand it would have no issue surpassing the original headsets sales.

 

[duckroll]

Barrier of entry is cheaper than buying a PC its only a barrier for people who have a PC, however PSVR2 is by far the best hardware you can get for under $1k when you combine VR/PC cost

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Erm, do you realise that both the Quest 1 and Quest 2 work without PCs? That's exactly why they became so popular. I specifically pointed out that the VR market would never had exploded without the Quest as a market option because wired headsets that require PCs were going nowhere fast.

Ideally the only way to compete in the mainstream would for the PSVR2 to be a standalone device, but in lieu of that, if Sony cannot afford to or are unable to make a device that can run games on its own, then allowing the PSVR2 to work with both PS5 and PCs would make the product more appealing to people who already play VR on PC and want an upgrade.

 

[Synth]

JFC, Synth , I'm not saying you're belligerent. You're inserting yourself into a conversation in progress and overlooking the context. I'm explaining the context.

Look, I get it, I used the word "completely" so you come in and tell me wired + treadmill is bad in "many ways" which apparently so far is just some basic cable management and hardware co-location. I'll alter my statement to say the differences between wired/wireless are largely negligible. It's not completely moot, but it's close enough that it's utterly pedantic to argue about it.

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Ok, fair enough if that was intended to be added context and not directed specifically at myself. Though the person you're responding to also didn't claim it was "wireless or nothing", so it's easy to miss the intended context when it doesn't really apply to anyone you're engaging with.

I do think wireless is a significant requirement for mainstream adoption of a headset, but there are clearly other aspects also. Price being one of them. I guess this is where the whole "Rift S" part of the argument comes in, because price is often to go to response when anyone questions the current choices made for PSVR2, both regarding wireless or it's ability to function as a PC headset. And so I do think it's a valid question as to whether the other technology the headset is incorporating that likely drives its cost up (eye-tracking being the most significant) are actually worth those trade-offs, especially if so much of the library is going to be made up of software a drastically weaker headset is able to run without any form of foveated rendering.

Anyways, I didn't mean to insert myself into the conversation as such. I was simply responding to something in your post that I disagreed with, similarly to how you responded to cakefoo's post with something in that post you took issue with. And though I responded more specifically to the bit regarding the treadmill, my general view is obviously that being tethered is directly opposed to mobility in general for VR. Many people have a need to turn their bodies in VR to lessen feelings of nausea, and this is especially true on PSVR2 with it's one-two punch of higher persistence displays combined with rudimentary reprojection. The moment you've turned yourself more than 180 degrees in the same direction with a cable, you've started to coil yourself. It's something a lot of people start to subconsciously micromanage, either by stepping over the cable, or being aware of how much they're turning in one direction compared to the other... but it fundamentally only restricts mobility.