The Brexity Labour MPs will support the negotiated deal, the remainy ones will support remain.
BREXIT |OT2.0| A parade of endless victories for Boris Johnson
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The Brexity Labour MPs will support the negotiated deal, the remainy ones will support remain.
Thing is, nothing about the current situation is normal. So in that particular context, having a second ref is likely the best chance to revocation. Even if the same people who broker a leave deal are the same ones who can and likely will campaign against it.
Compared to remaining, sure it'll be a shit deal, but dealing with 10+ million voters who would, and demand, some sort of leave option and then casting them aside for full blown revocation would, in short time, ensure the likes of Farage swoop into power. Its fucking shit, but it is what it is. Those in labour who have to bat for leave because they choose to, will. Sure, there wont be many.
The EU would bother a great deal about having a negotiation partner who, at a base level, would heavily engage with them and not be driven by a bunch of red lines that effectively stand on the way of any sort of decent deal being reached.
Will the former be true though? Surely that depends on the deal. I can't see Kate Hoey types defending a deal which might be similar to a Norway thing. So you may end up with some Labour MPs arguing with both options.
You're entitled to your views. Doesn't stop them being wrong and tedious. Fact is the only route to remaining is through a Corbyn government. Whatever his personal views are, it is Labour policy for a second ref so a Corbyn government would organise a second ref. If he didn't the backlash would end him and he knows it.
No one thinks Corbyn is a remain hero and God knows I have issues with the man's stance on brexit and many other things but in the real world he is a soft Eurosceptic who will do what his party wants and not a "mad brexiter" who will make Brexit happen regardless of what the vast majority of his party wants.
Fair play, I was wrong about that.
Laura was decent on the BBC there. Boris has nothing and she kept prodding.
Kate Hoey is a law unto herself and not really worth considering what she would do (especially as the referendum will be after the election she's not going to stand in, at least as a Labour candidate), but even so, the options on the ballot are going to be negotiated deal or remain, and I don't see her backing remain. I was talking of the more "sensible" pro-brexit Labour MPs, or those with pro-brexit constituencies.
It's like the UK already knew what was possible with daft hope the EU were morons to offer them cake or no intention of getting a deal, certainly for some in the Tory party. The red lines made it so clear a long time ago. Negotiating in bad faith then and certainly now.
That's the thing, will these brexiters be OK with a labour brexit deal? Or will they compain it's a labour referendum and a substantial part of the public isn't represented in either option.
A 2nd ref could end up being worse (from a "definite answer to brexit" perspective) if there's a sense of lack of representation.
From a negotiation perspective, why would the EU concede anything for a government that won't support that deal in a referendum? Why might happen is a PM Corbyn spending political capital defending a deal only to (very likely) be defeated by remain.
It's quite the conundrum for labour and I don't know how they solve that with a referendum. That's why I think Parliament doing it makes more sense (for other reasons as well)
How many are there? 4-5? From a legitimacy POV, how would it look if Brexiters started saying "this is not a proper referendum without no-deal on the table"? To be fair, as stupid as their position is, they would have a legitimate point about the validity of the referendum.
That's why the only way out of this mess IMO is parliament revoking A50 itself fresh out of a GE and if Labour are smart they starting throwing that out (not Corbyn obviously)
Very gracious of you and I apologise for boring you with my usual tedious shit.
I'm not going to argue over labels if you want to call Corbyn a 'soft Eurosceptic' rather than mad Brexiteer; I'm less generous in my terminology when it comes to leavers. The man has had to be dragged to his current position which has nothing to do with his beliefs and everything to do with pure political pragmatism. At heart he's an ideologue who wants to reshape Britain unconstrained by EU fetters just like the ERG.
The only path to revocation is a majority Labour or Lib/ Lab gov. This will not happen with Corbyn as party leader.
you do realise the election is more than just about Brexit, yeah
Yup. In the end it all boils down to british politicians and civil servants misreading continental europe. It started with cameron and TM aswell as BJ still follow the same mistakes.
Cameron still hasn't understood how bad he misread the EU.
From his memoires:
Merkel even warned cameron about it:
election is on monday
revocation is tuesday
what happens wednesday?
So apparently the best solution is to sabotage it before it's even got off the ground, instead of trying to see if it works
Meanwhile the Tories just have to exist and the 31st Oct gets ever closer
How is that any different to the original referendum? If the governments supported remain why did we have the initial referendum? It was to give people the choice.
It's not rocket science.
Sunday Boris calls himself the Incredible HulkBoris pulled out of the press conference because the protesters were making too much noise lol
This perfectly sums up Brexit tbh
Monday Thanos snaps him out of existence.
Cameron didn't have a deal to defend that he negotiated, although I have nothing positive to say about how he managed the referendum.
The issue is not presenting a choice, it's a) going against the choice (and your motivation/determination to reach that choice) and b) how representative that choice is to the electorate in order for the referendum to be considered "legitimate" or satisfactory for the country.
But he isn't following the far right, he's pushing Labour party policy, his long history of Bennite euro-sceptism has a completely different aim to the right and nationalism. He isn't a brexiteer and he was being honest during the referendum when he said he could take it or leave it when it came to the EU, for a Brexiteer it comes before everything else.
I would think if we want to win a second referendum we could at least learn to not treat the people as monolithic bloc and target arguments that might change minds, i realise a good chunk are beyond reach but not all are.
Astounding isn't it. Cloth ears at best. Red light red light, nah, keep going.
I said he agreed in practice (as opposed to "in principle"). But saying "I'm in favor of the key party policy of European far-right ultranationalists.....but for my own reasons!" is very clearly not a good stance for energizing people who are fans of multi-culturalism, who I would argue make up a large part of the base of a supposed left-wing party. It's not better that he can take or leave it. The issue is pretty important!
Surprised at the kick back about Lib Dem's position, I would be on board for full on mocking them for a fake promise, there is zero chance due to fptp for them to become a majority party in the commons...zero.. so they could say what they want, it matters not a jot.
ESP as they have said no coalitions, totally meaningless policy, other than if you believe there is no such thing as bad publicity
ESP as they have said no coalitions, totally meaningless policy, other than if you believe there is no such thing as bad publicity
Since the Lib Dems defenders have been so prolific these last few days (some with fair points no doubt), anyone wanna explain this one for me?
All these people quitting it's just a shame we won't get to see their sad little faces on election night when they realise nobody cares about them and they were only there because of the party they stood for. Good riddance though.
You just have to look at her voting record to see what she thinks about austerity and such. Seems very much like boot straps and good luck.
It's unforgivable, it's something that effectively rules them out for me in terms of considering voting for them.
I'm happy for them to be sowing discord amongst the Tories and boosting the Remain voice but I'd never vote for them if she's defending that shit.
You see, when she repeatedly comes out with all this awful right wing stuff for the entire length of time she's been in parliament, she doesn't actually mean it, it's merely a ruse to trick tories into voting for her. She'll reveal herself to be a dyed in the wool Corbynista after the election, just you wait.
You can't treat the political question (Brexit) independently from the social question (Austerity), because they both feed into the other.
Labour were previously trying to ignore the former and focus on the latter, which was dumb because the former massively affects the latter. But fortunately they've recently improved on that front.
The Lib Dems are focusing on the former, and just haven't moved at all on the latter, which means that they either really don't understand the conditions that led to the former, or they just don't care. I'm not sure which would be worse.
Labour were previously trying to ignore the former and focus on the latter, which was dumb because the former massively affects the latter. But fortunately they've recently improved on that front.
The Lib Dems are focusing on the former, and just haven't moved at all on the latter, which means that they either really don't understand the conditions that led to the former, or they just don't care. I'm not sure which would be worse.
I don't really understand this stance to be honest, and it just seems like she's trying to score political points. I am the last person to vote Lib Dem, but I fail to see how them saying they'd revoke art 50 is undermining democracy. If a party wants to run in the election on the promise that they would revoke art 50, and they happened to win, I would just view that result as superseding the referendum result.
Also, upholding the result of the original referendum as some "will of the people" bullshit in spite of mounting evidence of foreign influence and illegal campaign tactics, feels like its way more damaging to our democracy.
I would love to pretend that I'm shocked, but that would take too much effort.
My sides
This is what makes the "They are just ruling out working with Labour because there are more marginal CON/LIB seats" so funny. It's like those people lost their long term memory.
I said in the UK poli thread but this defense is quickly becoming 'to defeat a monster you must become a monster' levels of disgusting.
Not for me. They're the only viable competition for the Tories where I vote, and our MP is a particularly noxious variety of Tory. Not voting Lib Dem is basically a vote for the Brexit Party wing of the Conservative party, so they'd have to go quite a lot further towards the dark side to persuade me to vote against them (Note to Jo: this is not a challenge...)
Fair enough, I'm from a Labour safe seat so I'm lucky I guess.
Long term memory? It's of the LIbs propping up a failing Labour government in 1977. That's what older target voters will remember.
For certain values of lucky - neither of our votes really count for much. The lucky ones are in Lab/Con marginals. :D
Just remember FPTP essentially means unless you're very lucky you're voting against the party you dislike the most, and rarely voting for the party you'd actually prefer. If you're a Labour voter in a Lib/Con seat, there is a good chance the Liberal may disappoint you, but the Tory certainly will.
genuinely made me feel a bit ill listening to that swinson comment about austerity and knowing i have to vote lib dem because my seat is a lib-dem/tory battle. austerity has destroyed so many lives, to attack boris from the right finally allowing schools and hospitals to function above a bare minimum is grim.
but then ultimately i do want a lot of people who don't like corbyn because of brexit or anti-semitism or his allies or anything else to hold their noses and vote labour to stop the tories anyway, so can't complain. FPTP is clapped.
but then ultimately i do want a lot of people who don't like corbyn because of brexit or anti-semitism or his allies or anything else to hold their noses and vote labour to stop the tories anyway, so can't complain. FPTP is clapped.
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