BREXIT |OT2.0| A parade of endless victories for Boris Johnson

[Breqesk]

Well, I got asked in a YouGov survey today whether I'd still vote for Labour if I were living in a Lib Dem/Tory marginal. My finger hovered over the 'I'd vote Lib Dem' option for a while, but then I thought about, uh, pretty much everything they've said and done since I've been politically active - came of voting age under the Coalition - annnnnnd I just couldn't bring myself to do it, honestly.

Whether I'd be able to hold my nose come actual polling day if I lived in a marginal seat - I don't: my home constituency is a Tory stronghold, and my uni's constituency is a Labour/Tory marginal that I can't vote in 'cause I commute to campus (and that I'm quite worried the Lib Dems' current posturing might win for the Tories, considering how close it was last time) - I don't know, but for now, I just can't stomach the idea of my vote being taken as an endorsement of that party.

 

[Deleted member 18857]

Just remember FPTP essentially means unless you're very lucky you're voting against the party you dislike the most, and rarely voting for the party you'd actually prefer. If you're a Labour voter in a Lib/Con seat, there is a good chance the Liberal may disappoint you, but the Tory certainly will.

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Suddenly I'm imagining a Tory forum where some people are reacting to the Libdem pledge on Remain with a lot of negativity, and then some moaning they live in a Lab/Lib seat and they'd have to hold their noses and vote Libdem because it's still the lesser of two evils.
Does it exist? I'm sure it must exist somewhere.

 

[MidweekCoyote]

Okay... Who the fuck is Carole Malone and why is she a thing in public life? I have seen her in The Pledge and now commenting headlines and she is like a one-dimensional caricature.

 

[Rodelero]

Since the Lib Dems defenders have been so prolific these last few days (some with fair points no doubt), anyone wanna explain this one for me?

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I watched this clip waiting for the big moment and then the clip ended.

I guess this is going to be one of those things where I'm simply not inferring enough things that she didn't say.

May as well wait to see what they actually pledge to do. Their economic plans going in to the 2017 election were pretty decent on the whole.

Okay... Who the fuck is Carole Malone and why is she a thing in public life? I have seen her in The Pledge and now commenting headlines and she is like a one-dimensional caricature.

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She's a professional troll as far as I'm concerned. I don't think she believes a word that comes out of her gob.

 

[PJV3]

Not for me. They're the only viable competition for the Tories where I vote, and our MP is a particularly noxious variety of Tory. Not voting Lib Dem is basically a vote for the Brexit Party wing of the Conservative party, so they'd have to go quite a lot further towards the dark side to persuade me to vote against them (Note to Jo: this is not a challenge...)

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The way I see it everything begins with getting the Tories out and worrying about the rest later, do whatever it takes to get that result first.

My libdem MP could easily have been on the left of the Tory party but he isn't and that's enough for me to help stop the Tories.

 

[iapetus]

The way I see it everything begins with getting the Tories out and worrying about the rest later, do whatever it takes to get that result first.

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Hell, I'd even vote Tory to stop Brexit. Short term damage against long and all that.

 

[PJV3]

Hell, I'd even vote Tory to stop Brexit. Short term damage against long and all that.

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I think you might struggle with that since the Boris purge happened. I mean you would be relying on Nicky Morgan types and she has been absolutely pathetic at putting country and party in the right order.

 

[IpKaiFung]

Okay... Who the fuck is Carole Malone and why is she a thing in public life? I have seen her in The Pledge and now commenting headlines and she is like a one-dimensional caricature.

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Proto Katie Hopkins

 

[iapetus]

I think you might struggle with that since the Boris purge happened. I mean you would be relying on Nicky Morgan types and she has been absolutely pathetic at putting country and party in the right order.

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Yeah, obviously I mean in a crazy situation where that was actually a possibility. I guess if the Brexit Party were in danger of winning a previously safe Tory seat it might be a real possibility for someone...

 

[Ravensmash]

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Labour: We don't want to leave the EU, but we kind of do - let us negotiate a deal and then we'll campaign against it.

Like ffs, at least the Lib Dems are clear(er) on the subject.

They've made their stance clear, why would they work with a party who's messaging is still muddled and trying to appeal to a 50/50 base?

laura k is definitely getting on a tory pm's honours list sooner rather than later

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I just happened to watch her actual report, and it certainly didn't seem very pro-PM. Ended on a fairly hilarious image of a protestor with a sign saying "Bog-off Boris".

I don't know how much of a personal bias you can ascertain from a tweet that was posted in the midst of an ongoing situation. It also implies that she's moved from a pro-Tory bias, to a pro-Boris bias.

And if we've learnt anything in the last week or so, that's quite a leap.

 

[Ravensmash]

Not for me. They're the only viable competition for the Tories where I vote, and our MP is a particularly noxious variety of Tory. Not voting Lib Dem is basically a vote for the Brexit Party wing of the Conservative party, so they'd have to go quite a lot further towards the dark side to persuade me to vote against them (Note to Jo: this is not a challenge...)

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This is pretty much my position.

Labour will not get in around here, and I'd far rather the Lib Dems the incumbent.

Fake edit: My MP is also a particularly noxious variety.

 

[Anton]

I'm in a Con-Lib marginal and my current MP is in the ERG so I hope we can get that fucker out, dude is a complete pillock even if I'd rather vote Labour or Green personally

 

[Ravensmash]

I'm in a Con-Lib marginal and my current MP is in the ERG so I hope we can get that fucker out, dude is a complete pillock even if I'd rather vote Labour or Green personally

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All I see locally is people complaining about our Tory MP, yet her majority keeps going up. We've flitted between Labour and Lib Dem in a very distant second place for the last few elections.

I don't agree with austerity, and I worry that Jo is running around hoops to defend the mess of the coaliation (certainly could have handled that question better*), but I agree with a lot of their messages so would probably vote for them round here next election.

A huge part of that is because I genuinely don't think that any Labour candidate would do well round here at present.

*Would love to see the full response/follow up to that btw.

Although I absolutely despise the phrase 'tough choices' in regards to austerity. Eurgh.

 

[Simon21]

Funnily enough, in the full interview, almost immediately after that clip being shared on twitter cuts off, Swinson states that in the coalition they let through policies that they regret letting the Tories push through, highlighting the bedroom tax as one of them, and those were mistakes that they made but would not be repeated.

Wonder why whoever edited that clip chose to cut it off when they did.

 

[Ravensmash]

Funnily enough, in the full interview, almost immediately after that clip being shared on twitter cuts off, Swinson states that in the coalition they let through policies that they regret letting the Tories push through, highlighting the bedroom tax as one of them, and those were mistakes that they made but would not be repeated.

Wonder why whoever edited that clip chose to cut it off when they did.

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I've become very skeptical on a lot of the Twitter 'clips' posted online, so I presumed that there was a bit more to the answer here. What's the full source?

It's very easy for someone to post a clipped video* and then editorialise it. Just something I've noticed since ignoring the Twitter crowd and since really starting to watch full interviews/shows as of late.

*Swinson related, the Marr twitter clip that was posted here yesterday was a fantastic example of this, as it implied that she was only attacking Corbyn.

 

[Simon21]

I've become very skeptical on a lot of the Twitter 'clips' posted online, so I presumed that there was a bit more to the answer here. What's the full source?

It's very easy for someone to post a clipped video* and then editorialise it. Just something I've noticed since ignoring the Twitter crowd and since really starting to watch full interviews/shows as of late.

*Swinson related, the Marr twitter clip that was posted here yesterday was a fantastic example of this, as it implied that she was only attacking Corbyn.

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At the end of the clip in here: https://www.channel4.com/news/jo-sw...-anyone-that-the-lib-dems-want-to-stop-brexit

Still a pretty clumsy answer, IMO (and I think she is trying to walk that line of not wanting to defend the worst parts of the coalition, but not wanting to keep throwing her own party under the bus over it) but far from the full on celebration of austerity *certain people* on twitter are trying to characterise it as.

 

[Ravensmash]

At the end of the clip in here: https://www.channel4.com/news/jo-sw...-anyone-that-the-lib-dems-want-to-stop-brexit

Still a pretty clumsy answer, IMO (and I think she is trying to walk that line of not wanting to defend the worst parts of the coalition, but not wanting to keep throwing her own party under the bus over it) but far from the full on celebration of austerity *certain people* on twitter are trying to characterise it as.

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Ta!

Yeah, not the best answer- but seems like it was something odd to omit from the already very short clip, as it does change the framing of her response somewhat.

We're going to get political fucking Vines (is that a still a thing?) at this rate.

 

[Deleted member 835]

At the end of the clip in here: https://www.channel4.com/news/jo-sw...-anyone-that-the-lib-dems-want-to-stop-brexit

Still a pretty clumsy answer, IMO (and I think she is trying to walk that line of not wanting to defend the worst parts of the coalition, but not wanting to keep throwing her own party under the bus over it) but far from the full on celebration of austerity *certain people* on twitter are trying to characterise it as.

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She voted for it.. she voted for a hell of a lot of awful things. Her also going on about " magic money tree" also show all you need to know. She is very much Torylite, until she changes how she votes you can't convince me otherwise, it is way more than just "clumsy".

People need to stop defending shit, just because it is from a party they support.

 

[Ravensmash]

Well hopefully when the election rolls around, they'll make pledges which are vehemently away from the coalition platform.

That's not to defend her specifically, but it will be an indicator as to the current direction of the party.

 

[twofold]

The 2017 Lib Dem manifesto would have been better for lower income deciles than Labour's, according to the IFS' analysis -

I'll be disappointed if they reverse tack and go in the opposite direction.

At the end of the clip in here: https://www.channel4.com/news/jo-sw...-anyone-that-the-lib-dems-want-to-stop-brexit

Still a pretty clumsy answer, IMO (and I think she is trying to walk that line of not wanting to defend the worst parts of the coalition, but not wanting to keep throwing her own party under the bus over it) but far from the full on celebration of austerity *certain people* on twitter are trying to characterise it as.

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Thanks for posting this. Can't say I disagree with what she said - it was a fine answer, in my opinion.

 

[theaface]

Well well well, if it ain't the invisible cunt.

 

[SMD]

The 2017 Lib Dem manifesto would have been better for lower income deciles than Labour's, according to the IFS' analysis -

I'll be disappointed if they reverse tack and go in the opposite direction.



Thanks for posting this. Can't say I disagree with what she said - it was a fine answer, in my opinion.

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Aren't the IFS fairly neoliberal though?

 

[Joni]

Yeah, obviously I mean in a crazy situation where that was actually a possibility. I guess if the Brexit Party were in danger of winning a previously safe Tory seat it might be a real possibility for someone...

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Voting tactical, you would better vote brexit party then because it steals a con vote.

 

[SMD]

Voting tactical, you would better vote brexit party then because it steals a con vote.

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Some galaxy brain fuck is probably seriously advocating this somewhere on twitter.

 

[Stuart444]

So looking up info on today's proceedings:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...r-claims-suspension-of-parliament-is-unlawful

Eleven supreme court justices will hear the politically charged claim that Boris Johnson acted unlawfully in advising the Queen to suspend parliament for five weeks in order to stifle debate over the Brexit crisis.

All but one of the judges on the UK's highest court will be on the bench on Tuesday when the case opens. The hearing will be livestreamed on the supreme court website.

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Starts at 10:30am if I'm reading the website correctly.

Gonna be an interesting day considering the different positions between English and Scots Law/judgements.

 

[Ando]

The 2017 Lib Dem manifesto would have been better for lower income deciles than Labour's, according to the IFS' analysis -

I'll be disappointed if they reverse tack and go in the opposite direction.
.

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that chart only looked at a very small part of the spending commitments in the labour manifesto and did it in isolation with assumptions about existing choices, though all three manifesto's last elections were the most left wing since the seventies. the approach used by the IFS doesn't quite capture mcdonnell's preference for universalism and under such a mode of analysis most of the atlee government would not be considered progressive. though there was definitely a big hole when it came to "forgetting" to scrap welfare changes which mcdonnell took a long time to actually change when it was pointed out instead of being "oh well that was a mistake, we wouldn't do that"

i think there's fear because last time around the lib dems were led by farron who was an austerity critic who actively protested their choices during the coalition, ran against austerity afterwards and is from the beveridge wing of the party whereas swinson was a happy participant, defends austerity while inviting thatcherites like philip lee and gyimah to join and is from the orange book wing.

 

[Goodlifr]

Swinson today going with the "lump Corbyn in with Johnson and Garage" attack, said he's populist and nationalist or something.

 

[Moosichu]

Funnily enough, in the full interview, almost immediately after that clip being shared on twitter cuts off, Swinson states that in the coalition they let through policies that they regret letting the Tories push through, highlighting the bedroom tax as one of them, and those were mistakes that they made but would not be repeated.

Wonder why whoever edited that clip chose to cut it off when they did.

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Because it's not about which political party she support, but the fact that she is still willing to use the language that was used to justify Austerity (like magic money tree) - the thing that actually led to Brexit happening.

That's the problem with the Lib Dems right now, they claim to be the only "enlightened" political party which are "above" Brexit, yet they haven't identified yet that they are part of the problem (as much as any of the other parties) and that revoking Article 50 will do absolutely nothing to resolve the underlying issues this country faces that led to the Brexit vote in the first place.

The word "magic money tree" is a loaded term predicated on the idea that a government needs to be run like a private household. It's based on a lie and false economics. It doesn't matter what she said afterwards, even the fact that she was willing to use that language at all was enough for me to know that the Lib Dems are not well equiped to tackle any of the problems facing the UK today, includig Brexit.

 

[SMD]

Because it's not about which political party she support, but the fact that she is still willing to use the language that was used to justify Austerity (like magic money tree) - the thing that actually led to Brexit happening.

That's the problem with the Lib Dems right now, they claim to be the only "enlightened" political party which are "above" Brexit, yet they haven't identified yet that they are part of the problem (as much as any of the other parties) and that revoking Article 50 will do absolutely nothing to resolve the underlying issues this country faces that led to the Brexit vote in the first place.

The word "magic money tree" is a loaded term predicated on the idea that a government needs to be run like a private household. It's based on a lie and false economics. It doesn't matter what she said afterwards, even the fact that she was willing to use that language at all was enough for me to know that the Lib Dems are not well equiped to tackle any of the problems facing the UK today, includig Brexit.

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I heard they just revoke article 50 and everything is solved though.

 

[Uzzy]

No work today!

 

[phisheep]

The timetable for the Supreme Court is interesting. Appellants go first (as is usual) today and defendants tomorrow (interveners Thursday). But because there are two conflicting cases being appealed we get pro-roguement and anti-roguement arguments on both days.

So today there's Gina Miller seeking to overturn the High Court, and the Government seeking to overturn the Court of Session. That should give a reasonably good overview of the arguments both sides before we get the same thing back-to-front tomorrow.

(Mrs phisheep is minding the shop today, so I'll have a chance to follow it).

 

[Rodelero]

Because it's not about which political party she support, but the fact that she is still willing to use the language that was used to justify Austerity (like magic money tree) - the thing that actually led to Brexit happening.

That's the problem with the Lib Dems right now, they claim to be the only "enlightened" political party which are "above" Brexit, yet they haven't identified yet that they are part of the problem (as much as any of the other parties) and that revoking Article 50 will do absolutely nothing to resolve the underlying issues this country faces that led to the Brexit vote in the first place.

The word "magic money tree" is a loaded term predicated on the idea that a government needs to be run like a private household. It's based on a lie and false economics. It doesn't matter what she said afterwards, even the fact that she was willing to use that language at all was enough for me to know that the Lib Dems are not well equiped to tackle any of the problems facing the UK today, includig Brexit.

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The term "magic money tree" is one that basically only become relevant during the last general election when the Conservatives used it as a catchall way of lambasting the economic plans of the other parties without actually applying any detail. Using the term magic money tree now is not an endorsement of austerity, it is a clear way to highlight Conservative hypocrisy now they've decided that they can spend money willy-nilly while simultaneously pursuing a headline policy that is going to cost the country a fortune. Pointing out that the Conservatives are hypocrites is sensible politics whether or not you agree with austerity.

It's not hard to find things that the Lib Dems do and have done that deserve criticism. It's fucking embarrassing that people are falling over themselves about a clip that has been intentionally cut to make the Lib Dems look bad and that does such a poor job of that. The bitch eating crackers vibe in here is fucking nuts at times.

 

[danowat]

I'll be shocked if the supreme court say it was unlawful, I just can't see it happening.

That said.........I have been regularly shocked about the state of the world in the last few years, so who the hell knows.

 

[Beer Monkey]

are laws really laws when nothing has meaning any more

 

[Stuart444]

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...erything-you-need-know-supreme-court-showdown

Quick info on this all.

 

[phisheep]

I'll be shocked if the supreme court say it was unlawful, I just can't see it happening.

That said.........I have been regularly shocked about the state of the world in the last few years, so who the hell knows.

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Remember this is the same court that sided with Parliament over the Government on invoking Article 50. So it's not a hopeless case at all.

 

[Gawge]

Labour: We don't want to leave the EU, but we kind of do - let us negotiate a deal and then we'll campaign against it.

Like ffs, at least the Lib Dems are clear(er) on the subject.

They've made their stance clear, why would they work with a party who's messaging is still muddled and trying to appeal to a 50/50 base?

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The country is 50/50. Labour are the only major party who seem to realise you can't just make Brexit go away by going all in on one side. Whether you No Deal or Unilaterally Revoke, the issue is not going away. You can have your 'simple message' but it's not going to do anything to make this issue go away.

There is a significant possibility that in another referendum the majority vote to Leave, so the only sensible approach, and the one that learns from mistakes is to prepare as best as possible for that eventuality with a sensible plan which you can enact.

 

[DeltaRed]

I don't really understand this stance to be honest, and it just seems like she's trying to score political points. I am the last person to vote Lib Dem, but I fail to see how them saying they'd revoke art 50 is undermining democracy. If a party wants to run in the election on the promise that they would revoke art 50, and they happened to win, I would just view that result as superseding the referendum result.

Also, upholding the result of the original referendum as some "will of the people" bullshit in spite of mounting evidence of foreign influence and illegal campaign tactics, feels like its way more damaging to our democracy.

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There are lots of people that want to Remain but would only support it via s second referendum. They're actually going to lose voters with the extreme position they're taking.

 

[Simon21]

It's not hard to find things that the Lib Dems do and have done that deserve criticism. It's fucking embarrassing that people are falling over themselves about a clip that has been intentionally cut to make the Lib Dems look bad and that does such a poor job of that. The bitch eating crackers vibe in here is fucking nuts at times.

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It's concerning how many people, even those more switched on to politics than the general public, seem to just get all their political "news" from the same group of people posting bad-faith tweets to bounce around their particular echo chamber.

 

[31GhostsIV]

Buckland refusing to rule out a second prorogation before Oct 31s - what in the actual fuck is going on? Johnson and Cummings need to be dragged out of No 10.

 

[Xando]

Man, reading german media this morning really shows how the tune has changed.

One or two months ago UK remaining was still seen as the best outcome while now it's mostly about having the UK out and maybe join again when it has sorted its domnestic turmoil. Brexit is starting to be seen as a issue that is hampering the EU and articles are starting to turn into 'A end with disaster is better than disaster without end'.

 

[Goodlifr]

What's impressed me recently is how quickly the Tories have gone from

"We need to keep no deal on the table because the EU are scared of it and they will give us a good deal if we threaten them with no deal"

To

"The EU might not offer an extension even if we ask as they want the whole thing over and done with"

 

[*Splinter]

About three weeks ago the Liberal Democrats were ensuring no deal when they weren't on board with Corbyn becoming interim PM. That entire narrative was bollocks, but didn't stop many in here from hounding anyone who dared to point out that the interim Corbyn plan was incredibly unlikely to work regardless of the Lib Dems position.

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Feel like you're rewriting history a bit here. At the time everyone, including the Lib Dems, thought a unity government was our only option, they were only arguing over who should lead it.

Later it turned out that it was possible to legislate against no deal, so that became the easier route and is what happened, but at the time Swinson was risking everything just to prevent Corbyn being a puppet of a PM.

The latest outrage, for me at least, is that this is just a tactically poor move by Swinson (at least, for the purpose of remaining). There are no votes to be gained by being more remain, the Lib Dems were already the remainiest remainers in town. But a policy of revoke without a ref will push away soft remainers, those who have bought into the will of the people narrative. Swinson is appealing to an extreme she already has locked down, and pushing away moderate votes in exchange.

 

[jelly]

.

Man, reading german media this morning really shows how the tune has changed.

One or two months ago UK remaining was still seen as the best outcome while now it's mostly about having the UK out and maybe join again when it has sorted its domnestic turmoil. Brexit is starting to be seen as a issue that is hampering the EU and articles are starting to turn into 'A end with disaster is better than disaster without end'.

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I think they are just fed up with the blame EU narrative coming to a head and turned up to 11 by Boris and co when liars are allowed to go unchalleged here. It's the goverment they don't like, not the UK but seperating the two and getting a result is impossible at the moment.

 

[Simon21]

What's impressed me recently is how quickly the Tories have gone from

"We need to keep no deal on the table because the EU are scared of it and they will give us a good deal if we threaten them with no deal"

To

"The EU might not offer an extension even if we ask as they want the whole thing over and done with"

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Say what you want about May, at least she seemed to have some idea that she would need a plan, and would need to actually do some good faith negotiating with the EU to carry it out. Everyone else at the top of that party has just been doing the "Homer running around in circles on the ground" routine.

 

[jelly]

No work today!

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Don't they decide over three days. I guess you could get an answer earlier, I don't know.

 

[MrKlaw]

Hell, I'd even vote Tory to stop Brexit. Short term damage against long and all that.

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Yep - anything goes right now if you can vote to try and get a remain/2nd vote candidate in thats all that matters. Any other policies will be drops in the ocean over the term of a parliament vs Brexit

 

[Koukalaka]

What's impressed me recently is how quickly the Tories have gone from

"We need to keep no deal on the table because the EU are scared of it and they will give us a good deal if we threaten them with no deal"

To

"The EU might not offer an extension even if we ask as they want the whole thing over and done with"

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Pure, distilled desperation. Happened with the last extension - you had MPs and commentators take a break from bashing EU27 leaders to beg and grovel at them to refuse an extension.

 

[Joni]

Some galaxy brain fuck is probably seriously advocating this somewhere on twitter.

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Honestly, you should try and send as many leavers as possible to Brexit Party. The Leave vote should be as divided as possible between Brexit and Con. Thanks to FPTP it is required.

Yep - anything goes right now if you can vote to try and get a remain/2nd vote candidate in thats all that matters. Any other policies will be drops in the ocean over the term of a parliament vs Brexit

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Will a Tory remainer be able to vote that?

 

[CD_93]

I wasn't expecting Norris from Corrie.