This is the strangest and weirdest fucking thing ever. I really hope the judge sides and gets her out of that hellhole.
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Oh, give me a break comparing documented events with "Q level bullshit". The timeline I posted in that exact same post links to the complete documents while highlighting what they found problematic.
And what reason is that? And what "serious place" would they otherwise post it? Actually curious.
This entire thing feels like the Black Mirror episode with Miley Cirus. Goes to show that Mental Health issues in the US are so fucked up beyond the pale that even a millionaire will find themselves in a position of despair.
The IUD thing is a violation of human rights plain and simple. People who were responsible for that should go straight to jail.
The IUD thing is a violation of human rights plain and simple. People who were responsible for that should go straight to jail.
In your experience, then, what's a plausible reason why the lawyer said that they wouldn't touch the termination application and that they were willing to be subbed out instead of doing so?
You have a sense of ethics and empathy. They don't. It's as simple as that.
That "racing horse" comment by her father say it all. He has stopped viewing his daughter as an human being and see her as an income source to be exploited.
I wish the judge could order both that family and the lawyers to fully reimburse Britney for all the money that leeched of her. Then disbarrment for hte lawyer and prison for the father...
"We don't know what her capacity is" ≠ "she might be lying or crazy"
We truly don't know her medical history AND what she has been going through would be unacceptable under any condition.
Are you serious? She has 13 years worth of accomplishments proving that she is capable of functionning and working correctly, answering questions throughout thousands of interviews asking her different questions requiring her to elaborate about her life, providing for herself and more than 10 people around her. Not only that, she partly wrote the lyrics of her track, assisted in production and songwriting, developped choreographies, remembered choreographies, had fully understandable discussion and interaction with her fans at shows between 2013-2018. What else does she have to do to prove she is capable?
Even if she needs Vallium to calm her anxiety once in a while, doesn't not mean she should be abused and stripped from all her rights. How many people consume drugs and alcohol abusively, and make a lifestyle and a business out of it. By this reasoning, half of the DJs touring the world should be under conservatorship. Let's end the bullcrap, now, cuz you are allowing people to doubt the validity of her claims.
I mean, obviously we don't know about her medical records, those are obviously sealed. But we're talking about Britney Spears. She's not sitting at home since the conservatorship was put in place. And you don't send a mentally unstable person to work her ass off on multiple world tours, albums, fragrance and lingerie deals, TV appearances, a Vegas residency and so on. Those are all things Britney has done in the last 13 years. And at least some of it she was forced to do.
Yeah seems logically inconsistent. If she's able to perform at a high level, then she obviously has the ability to do other things. Does she maybe need a therapist or someone else? Maybe, maybe not. But that doesn't mean she needs her life completely controlled in a clearly exploitative and abusive way.
TMZ would be a legitimate step up. Their documentation is very incomplete though. If they're really concerned they should hire an experienced probate lawyer to review what they have then explain and advise. Remember that these court documents often refer to or are supplemented by other documents and I don't see that everything is there.
Saw it when it aired and while generally enjoy his deep dives I felt this was lacking at least as how it relates to California. I've see a lot of protections for a lot of his concerns. Bullshit can still happen though. There's a good reason why the court reviews these yearly or biannually. I've seen judges be very hard, but fair, on fiduciary fees.
It's a bit puzzling and I could only speculate. He may not believe that termination is in her best interests and thus disagrees with the direction of the case and he therefore would be unable to zealously represent her case. It's also a possibility that he's not experienced in this type of litigation involving a termination proceeding since those can be jury trials. He could also be receiving conflicting directions from his client regarding the termination petition. He can't really discuss his client's confidences, so we may never know.
It is exactly like the Black Mirror episode with Miley.. Terrifying. Another hilarious(terrifying) thing is they are claiming she has dementia.. and literally choreographs professional dance LOL. And remembers it for hours long concerts.. Not only that, she teaches it. Literally a skill based on memorization which she does to a degree she is probably one of the top people in her job.
As a lawyer, this topic also helps me recognize how annoying it is to talk with other lawyers.
What doesn't sit right with me is the constant cast of doubt on her memory, her competence, her knowledge, etc as she tries to life a life outside of her father's approval at the age of 39.
I don't see what's gained by this relentless skepticism of a woman who is claiming abusive circumstances.
That A.) Doesn't negate what was said.
And B.) This, again, is making assumptions about her care and her treatment that aren't available publicly.
Again, what happened to Britney (the forced tours with no input, the forced management and PR decisions, the forced lawyers, the forced medical treatments inclusive of the forced slave labor and forced contraceptive) should never happen to anyone under any circumstance.
As much as I hate the "I care" movie on Netflix, in the sense that what I watched made my blood boil like never before...I'm so glad it exists and raised awareness of conservatorship. It's bullshit what happened to Brittney and she is a pop star. Think of how many vulnerable people are in the hands of abusers that will never get their voices heard.
There is a place for conservatorship...but it desperately needs to be properly regulated and subject to audits.
There is a place for conservatorship...but it desperately needs to be properly regulated and subject to audits.
I didn't read what I quoted as skepticism. I really do think there's a firm, clear, and solid line between "She's not well. She doesn't know what she's saying. She couldn't possibly be in control of her own life," and, "We don't know exactly what her circumstances are, were, and will continue to be."
What I will personally say and support is that Britney clearly wants this to end, her (father's) lawyers have obviously not been honest with her or have withheld information, and that her wishes should be respected. Nothing she told the judge sounded unreasonable to me at all. It couldn't be further from unreasonable.
And the fact that all her father could say after this public statement was that "he loves his daughter very much and is sad to see she's suffering" is, again, very telling.
Really? TMZ? A tabloid focused mostly on gossip that has historically published false information?
You seem to be missing the point of that Twitter thread or the Google Docs file. Firstly, they were written and gathered by Britney's fans, hence they're published on the platforms available to them. It makes very little to no difference if they were to be posted on such a website like TMZ. It's not like TMZ has any legal credibility to vet any of that information.
The documents linked on the Google Docs are public documents, every link on that file directs to the original source of information. If you feel there are missing documents, you're free to look them up to back up your argument here.
Additionally, these are fans rallying to make the judge look into the conservatorship more carefully. They're not the ones making the final decision. They're not in court legally defending Britney. Their main goal is to make enough noise so the case receives more scrutiny, and vocally support Britney. Judge Penny is the one making the final decision, and I assume she has access to all documents.
But hey, you don't need to take my word or Free Britney's word for it. Here is a more reputable source than TMZ bringing enough information to warrant concern:
Britney Spears Quietly Pushed for Years to End Her Conservatorship (Published 2021)
Confidential court records obtained by The Times reveal that the singer has urged changes to the arrangement that controls her life, and her father’s role in leading it.
Hound sounds like they really wish they were Spears' lawyer, they're missing out on a lot of easily and personally justifiable money there it would seem.
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This is the kind of patronizing dismissal that victimizes people like her and keeps it that way.
'She's telling her truth, and good for her.' Makes me genuinely shudder.
Really? TMZ? A tabloid focused mostly on gossip that has historically published false information?
You seem to be missing the point of that Twitter thread or the Google Docs file. Firstly, they were written and gathered by Britney's fans, hence they're published on the platforms available to them. It makes very little to no difference if they were to be posted on such a website like TMZ. It's not like TMZ has any legal credibility to vet any of that information.
The documents linked on the Google Docs are public documents, every link on that file directs to the original source of information. If you feel there are missing documents, you're free to look them up to back up your argument here.
Additionally, these are fans rallying to make the judge look into the conservatorship more carefully. They're not the ones making the final decision. They're not in court legally defending Britney. Their main goal is to make enough noise so the case receives more scrutiny, and vocally support Britney. Judge Penny is the one making the final decision, and I assume she has access to all documents.
But hey, you don't need to take my word or Free Britney's word for it. Here is a more reputable source than TMZ bringing enough information to warrant concern:
Britney Spears Quietly Pushed for Years to End Her Conservatorship (Published 2021)
Confidential court records obtained by The Times reveal that the singer has urged changes to the arrangement that controls her life, and her father’s role in leading it.www.nytimes.com
Thats a somewhat decent article. It references a portion of the investigator's report, which is of interest and raises a concern. The investigators' reports are really the eyes and ears of the court, and they're typically very detailed and include information about a conservatees demeanor, ability to respond intelligently to questions, medical history, statements of family, etc. It's a human creation, so they're not perfect, but they can be very helpful to the court when placed in context, which we don't fully have. However there are valid reasons why she might say this to the investigator and then decline to direct her attorney to file the paperwork. It sounds like there's been a gradual buildup in her requests for her independence, starting with asking to have her father removed. Hope a petition gets filed and she gets her day in court with an attorney who's got her back. :)
No thanks, I have enough stuff to deal with and I don't qualify for a 475 an hour rate anyway. More than anything right now I want to work less and take a real vacation. lol if you think this shit is easy.
Oh believe me, I'm sure it takes a lot of professional experience, diligence and dedication to figure out how to consistently use one's credentials, loop holes, weaknesses in the system not to mention a client's ignorance of their overall rights and options in order to bleed a person dry and keep the money flowing. Interesting you admittedly don't qualify to be her lawyer anyways yet you feel the need to make endless sanctimonious posts justifying what an apparently steaming pile of corrupt excrement her current lawyer is. But I'm sure it's just some innocent misunderstanding or confusion somewhere that all the lay people and journalists reporting on this just aren't understanding, of course. Also lol @ you mentioning a predatory tabloid outlet like TMZ which profits from this culture of celeb exploitation and looking down your nose at the NYT's "somewhat decent" coverage of this as though the severity of this story is all just the result of some imagined, ephemeral obsession from fans online. We are way past that point of possibility. But please, keep spinning for the crappy lawyer defense force.
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Dude, in 2008, Britney was promised out of the conservatorship after the Circus Tour. It's what she wanted from Day One. Do you get that this is less than 6 months after she was put in that situation? They lied to her and made a new arrangement, and change her medication. During the Femme Fatale Era in 2010-2011 she appared completely drugged out, and I guess this is directly related to that arrangement. Britney has always wanted out, and by sealing the records of the court, they have silenced her entirely - that is until very recently, in 2019, a concerned intern in a law firm leaked that Andrew Wallet, the co-conservator at the time, has expressed very serious concerns about the gravity of the situation, even stating that him staying in this conservatorship and supporting Jamie's decisions and claims could be dangerous to the conservatee - Britney. Turns out this was entirely true, as Britney had been forced to facility at that time and forced to take Lithium.
Thank you. In no moment she wanted the conservatorship. She simply trusted people around her that they would do the best for her in a SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME and then it would end.
13 years.
For real. I gave up after that.
No one should be even questioning her at this point. She's confirmed every rumor and every fear yesterday. Fans have been worried about her being forced and drugged to perform for years. We've seen her look tired or out of her element on stage, like she was under the influence. We've all seen it, on interviews, on The X Factor. We've all seen her look at her team during interviews, completely insecure of what she was going to say, obviously scared. She's confirmed on stage multiple times that she was sick while performing. We all remember the multiple reports of journalists saying they had a very strict list of subjects they could talk about when interviewing Britney. We've been seeing it for all this time. It's all the evidence one would need to believe her testimony was honest.
Hasan is going through a bunch of Brittany Spears shit on his show and I'm just like...Fuck.
Like I grew up while this shit was happening, and I didn't really think much about it at the time because I was a kid (I also didn't go out of my way to read into it more when something would inevitably pop up on TV or something) , but seeing it in a more condensed form as an adult, and actually paying attention to it...Even just a fraction of the shit she had to deal with would have driven me fucking insane.
Like I grew up while this shit was happening, and I didn't really think much about it at the time because I was a kid (I also didn't go out of my way to read into it more when something would inevitably pop up on TV or something) , but seeing it in a more condensed form as an adult, and actually paying attention to it...Even just a fraction of the shit she had to deal with would have driven me fucking insane.
Based on the info in this article Spears may be able to get her father removed and some of restrictions loosened, otherwise sounds she's basically stuck in a horrible catch-22 and will be at the mercy of an investigation based largely on testimony from her "family:"
www.nbcnews.com
That NBC legal analyst talking head in the article though: "people in conservatorships don't get better." Obviously this is not a typical or ideally implemented conservatorship involving a person who clearly needs indefinite help due to being critically incapacitated in some ongoing form.
Britney Spears didn't hold back in her rare testimony. But it might not be enough.
One legal expert said the most realistic scenario would be that some restrictions are lifted and her father is removed — but the conservatorship would remain.
www.nbcnews.com
That NBC legal analyst talking head in the article though: "people in conservatorships don't get better." Obviously this is not a typical or ideally implemented conservatorship involving a person who clearly needs indefinite help due to being critically incapacitated in some ongoing form.
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This is very sad. I was hoping for Britney's sake that some of what her fans were saying the last year or two were exaggerated but that recent documentary plus her testimony here show to me that is all true. Hope that she is freed from this and gets to enjoy wherever she goes next.
I just caught up on all this today after seeing the initial headlines yesterday. Jfc what awful people surrounding her, I hope she gets her freedom.
I also think the state of California is somewhat complicit in this, though I suppose all states are where these conservatorships are allowed to operate indefinitely with barely any oversight. I hope she sues all the guilty parties involved into oblivion and gets her life back. Her father should legit serve time for this level of abuse.
I also think the state of California is somewhat complicit in this, though I suppose all states are where these conservatorships are allowed to operate indefinitely with barely any oversight. I hope she sues all the guilty parties involved into oblivion and gets her life back. Her father should legit serve time for this level of abuse.
Yeah. I hadn't seen this thread on this forum, but yeah, I'm a huge Britney fan and we've been following this for years now.
Either way it doesn't make any sense, if she's under a conservatorship because she's mentally incapable of making the most basic decisions, how has she been able to do all these things the past 13 years (she literally started working less than a month after the conservatorship was put in place, which was February 2008, by March she was a guest on How I Met Your Mother)? But if she really is so mentally ill that the conservatorship is justified (is not) then they've been literally abusing and exploiting a mentally disabled person just for money purposes.
Her conservatorship is equivalent to one that an old person with Alzheimer would get (and only after lots of evaluations). So this would be as if someone that has an old parent with Alzheimer, sent this ill person to work and he was the one providing for the entire family for 13 years. Can you imagine a person with Alzheimer doing world tours, having Meet and greets, being a judge on The X Factor, giving interviews, teaching dance lessons in Los Angeles, directing a show, writing songs, etc? Because that's all that Britney has done.
I don't know if there are other Britney fans in here, but all of us that are, we know how powerful it was to finally hear Britney from her own words say all these things. In one hand it was relieving to finally have a confirmation of all these "conspiracy theories" but at the same time it was horrible to know she's actually had to go through all of that and even worse details we didn't have idea like the IUD. I was literally in tears as I was listening to the livestream while it was happening. And she only narrated what happened from 2018 onwards.
The worst part is that there's probably still a lot of stuff she's unaware of, like what they've done with her fortune behind the scenes, the involvement of Lou M. Taylor, and also the former co-conservator Andrew Wallet and who knows who else have been profiting with this besides them and her father.
That's the whole point.
There are two types of conservatorships, one for mental illnesses, which only last for a year, and after this period of time, they have to evaluate again whether it continues or not. They cannot be made permanent. This however, is not the kind of conservatorship Britney was put under.
She's under the one that's normally used for patients with Alzheimer or similar conditions, that as you say, are typically for people of old age, that won't get any better, but all the opposite, they'll get worse with time as these are degenerative conditions. Most people don't get to live more than 10 years after the diagnosis.
Sadly, the law is very loose in terms of who can fall under this conservatorship, even if anyone familiarized with the law know these are typically for old people, the law doesn't specified a minimum age, and that's how Britney at 26 years old was put under one.
The main excuse they've kept this in place is because "she's susceptible to undue influence" based on God knows what. The ironic part is that there are actually cases where people really want / need a conservatorship to take care of their ill parents, and they get denied, because they can't prove that their 90+ year old parent with Alzheimer lacks the capacity to take their own decisions. Sometimes even the fact that they have someone around them willing to help them disqualifies them for the conservatorship because they're considered as not entirely incapacitated. Britney's conservatorship was granted in a record time, in a matter of days. They violated the process specified by the law, which was to notify her with 5 days in advance, allow her to hire a lawyer of her preference and contest the petition. They only notified her once the conservatorship was already granted, because her father asked the judge not to tell her, and the corrupt judge agreed.
The judge, btw, Reva Goetz, is linked to many other cases of conservatorship abuse, but the sneaky witch retired from the case in 2016 before all this exploded. She needs to be investigated too.
Here's Exactly What Needs to Happen for Britney Spears to End Her Conservatorship
An attorney who specializes in these cases walked us through what's next for Britney Spears, step by step.
www.vice.com
From this it doesn't sound likely she's ever going to get out of it. The US really is an insane place, land of the free, yeah right.
And the doctors and lawyers he hired. All of them are complicit and guilty in cooperating in human rights abuses.
Britney is under a conservatorship that's for old people and people that, like said previously "don't get better". Are we seriously supposed to believe this woman is so badly impaired mentally that she's been working non stop for these years and is basically the person that's feeding everyone around her while her father controls her, changes her medications against her will, tells her if she can or not get married, have kids, etc...
And when i say "work non stop" i mean traveling around the world, with 2 kids, doing tours with some heavy choreography work involved, etc.
Give me a break.
The woman that was speaking 2 days ago sounded quite lucid to me. Specially considering everything she went through so far in life.
There's clearly something quite fishy about this, and it's weird to see so many posts trying to justify the abuse she's going through.
Its very weird.
No person deserves have their rights taken away like this, especially for 13 (and counting) years.
The details of this are extremely disturbing and my main take aways are that her dad is a massive piece of abusive shit and these laws are pure insanity.
She is not a threat to herself or others. So why is he not allowed to do as she pleases?
OP
OP
I have been since '98 and have been feeling some guilt about attending the PoM world tour knowing now how unhappy she was during it.
Makes perfect sense, like you said this kind of arrangement is obviously for people with serious, permanent illnesses like Alzheimer's. Thanks for the additional info, I wouldn't be surprised if the current judge is corrupt like the last one you mentioned. The problematic conservatorship laws aside, there also definitely is not enough oversight and accountability for judges in this country either.
edit: Brief search on both Twitter and online regarding that Reva Goetz shows she's a completely corrupt whore who helped orchestrate and assist her father in Spears being denied her rights by the conservatorship. She's now an arbitrator who works for a private company of course (just a few examples I found, I take no responsibility for these links/Twitter ppl and apologize in advance if they are actually problematic sources):
Corrupt Judge Reva G. Goetz - Court Victim Network
Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Reva Garfunkel Goetz #102692 Hon. Reva G. Goetz, Los Angeles Superior Court, Retired, joined ARC after serving as a highly regarded Probate Judge from 2007 to 2014. Judge Goetz handled hundreds of contested, complex probate, trust and estate and conservatorship...
courtvictim.com
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It just seems logically inconsistent to me to hold that someone is so incapable of handling themselves that they need basically their human rights removed, but they're also capable of performing at a high level consistently along with doing all of the associated work needed to put on performances.
I think everyone feels a bit of guilt from everything, from going to her shows, to buying her music, streaming, etc, but tbh we were all told she was ok, that it was all for her own good. In my personal experience, it was obvious that in 2011 she was heavily medicated, but then she got better over the years, at least in her public appearances and onstage, so I was like, hey maybe they're really helping her with whatever she's dealing with. I had no idea how restrictive the conservatorship was, since that concept doesn't even exist in my country. 2012 was better than 2011, then 2013 was better than 2012 and so on until 2016 which we all may agree was even one of the peaks of her career. After that she just went backwards again, until 2018 where she looked very anxious onstage, and now we know why :(
Makes perfect sense, like you said this kind of arrangement is obviously for people with serious, permanent illnesses like Alzheimer's. Thanks for the additional info, I wouldn't be surprised if the current judge is corrupt like the last one you mentioned. The problematic conservatorship laws aside, there also definitely is not enough oversight and accountability for judges in this country either.
edit: Brief search on both Twitter and online regarding that Reva Goetz shows she's a completely corrupt whore who helped orchestrate and assist her father in Spears being denied her rights by the conservatorship. She's now an arbitrator who works for a private company of course (just a few examples I found, I take no responsibility for these links/Twitter ppl and apologize in advance if they are actually problematic sources):
Corrupt Judge Reva G. Goetz - Court Victim Network
Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Reva Garfunkel Goetz #102692 Hon. Reva G. Goetz, Los Angeles Superior Court, Retired, joined ARC after serving as a highly regarded Probate Judge from 2007 to 2014. Judge Goetz handled hundreds of contested, complex probate, trust and estate and conservatorship...courtvictim.com
Yeah, she's also friends with the court appointed lawyer, Sam Ingham, so it makes perfect sense that there's a whole net of lawyers, judges, doctors that literally live off of these conservatorships, and they won the lottery with Britney Spears, because I don't know of any other conservatee as rich as her.
As you said, sadly there's no accountability for judges, but I wish there was some sort of punishment for them.
But an interesting key in this whole scam was Lou M. Taylor, a woman that made her way into the Spears family through Jamie Lynn, Britney's sister. At first she had no connection with Britney, but according to leaked emails, she was basically stalking her, sending her gifts and pictures of her and her religious husband to try to convince Britney to seek help. This woman is the president of TriStar entertainment, and ultimately became Britney's business manager, once the conservatorship was put in place. She seems to have a very deep power over Britney's father, and we all believe she was the one that came up with the idea of the conservatorship, since she also tried that with Lindsay Lohan, according to Lindsay's father. In her case, it was him who opposed to it, and that's why Lindsay's free nowadays unlike Britney.
Here they are, Britney's father, Lou M. Taylor and Lou's husband, getting baptized at the Jordan River in 2017, while Britney was touring Asia
Also, Lou's involvement is not only speculative, Britney's mom literally revealed it on her book in 2008. They were planning the conservatorship with months in advance. It wasn't just because Britney was put in the 5150, the 5150's were part of the plan.
Lou only quit last year as Britney's business management after all the legal battle started, not before asking Britney's father a minimum of $300,000 a year whether Britney was performing or not (she's been on hiatus since 2019). In turn, James Spears hired (without asking Britney of course) Michael Kane as the new business manager, no other than Michael Jackson's final business manager who got involved with his estate shortly before he passed away. It really is like a horror movie.
Exactly what i said in my post above.
She can't handle her finances or her health...but she can go around the world fully jet-lagged doing 2 hour shows involving heavy choreography for decades?
Also you can tell by her body that she's someone that takes care of it. She still has that athletic body, she works for that. That's not something you get just by "being rich". She's not some sloppy incoherent human being that needs to be dragged around, clearly.
Even if she wasn't capable of handling her businesses, she seems perfectly capable of hiring people to do that. She said in court she was handling some choreography work for her tour as a director. wow...lock her up. Someone that has been working for decades and working for everyone around her and directing other people's jobs can't live without her own daddy's help. /s
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Here they are, Britney's father, Lou M. Taylor and Lou's husband, getting baptized at the Jordan River in 2017, while Britney was touring Asia
Also, Lou's involvement is not only speculative, Britney's mom literally revealed it on her book in 2008. They were planning the conservatorship with months in advance. It wasn't just because Britney was put in the 5150, the 5150's were part of the plan.
Lou only quit last year as Britney's business management after all the legal battle started, not before asking Britney's father a minimum of $300,000 a year whether Britney was performing or not (she's been on hiatus since 2019). In turn, James Spears hired (without asking Britney of course) Michael Kane as the new business manager, no other than Michael Jackson's final business manager who got involved with his estate shortly before he passed away. It really is like a horror movie.
Horror movie is right, it's like a deranged mini cult and corrupt legal network all working in tandem against the vulnerable in Hollywood. I feel like I'm seeing the makings of a major Netflix or HBO Max docu-series in the future.
They're actually readying a Netflix documentary after the one released by the New York Times (Framing Britney Spears), but we don't know when it's coming out.