Bungie is looking for Designers to create "player progression behind lootboxes"

[Omegasquash]

Short answer: no. Longer answer: in a game that depends on microtransactions, what drives the game market is basically your whales, and those are the players you need to keep happy. Everyone else is kinda secondary, as long as there are enough to give the game an appearance of "being played" you're probably fine (also assumes the whales aren't being driven by other players, which, sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't, depends on the whale).

You'd need to look at Bungie's financials to really get a deeper understanding of what exactly they're prioritizing. If the average purchase from a customer looks like them buying the game and maybe the DLC, that means they need to keep developing more content, rather than focusing on microtransactions, because there aren't enough whales to keep that loop up. Alternatively, if there is a small, but focused group spending large amounts of money on microtransactions (in the range of $100 - $1000), then there's probably going to be more focus on that. If the company is looking to increase microtransaction profitability, that's probably what the microtransaction lead posting is for (i.e., they didn't make as much as they expected via microtransactions, and are trying to fix that). I'd argue that the current microtransaction loop for Destiny 2 would probably need to be reworked substantially for it to be successful, largely because it's simply not something that's terribly present or desirable in the current state of the game. Cosmetics only really work as microtransactions if they're highly desirable, but there's not a huge focus on the cosmetic aspects of items in the game to begin with, and there are already lots of options available to players for free. Masterworks in Curse of Osiris might help this, as you're spending more time modding the weapons now, but it's still a relatively minor part of the overall gameplay loop. Cosmetics aren't really presented as collectibles right now, and that's a big problem.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...i-to-profile-each-player-and-keep-them-hooked

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Thank you! More to come below, as your answer is (I think) in semi-conflict with another.

Regarding the XP throttle, I think it was sloppy design.
Basically, whoever was in charge of their monetization (traditionally someone in the product manager role, supported by business intelligence) determined an optimal time to earn a Bright Engram.
They probably did some math, and figured out that flat XP gains wouldn't do very well to fit that optimal time and still remain satisfactory. For example, they want Public Events to be satisfactory, but you can't have them give good rewards for someone who does them once in a while, yet still keep it balanced for the grinder who's clearing them at a rate of 12/hour. That's where the throttling algorithm comes in. Their igniting mistake, as with a lot of their mistakes, arose from a poor user experience. We know that they can tweak everything XP-related serverside, but their XP display is handled by the client. So while the client was led to believe players were getting some amount of XP, the server was receiving a different number, leading to confusion. Now, this wasn't a good system in the first place--a good design lead wouldn't have allowed them to use such a nonsensical, obtuse XP algorithm, so this is definitely one of those things I'd expect an experienced progression lead to prevent in the future. Generally, you don't want to confuse players, and while there's plenty of precedent for doing complicated things under the hood, you'll want to respect the intelligence of your playerbase and be forthcoming about how your systems work. My guess is that the gating algorithm was implemented after the UI was completed, and they didn't have time to streamline and reconcile both systems.

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So, the short version of this is that they simply didn't display the right numbers. If they'd have displayed, to the player, the xp number that ACTUALLY went towards progress versus the number that's seen by the player, it wouldn't have been as big a deal, or a non-issue (best case scenario).

Regarding the Eververse loot pool, yes. More items would drive more purchases.
Strong monetization systems drive a deep spend--that is, create potential for spending a lot of money. Eververse does NOT do that, and the value proposition per Bright Engram is really low considering you can get a lot of "trash" (basically, anything that's not Exotic). It also lacks any sort of long-term goals, such as rewards for completing sets. Another problem is that the loot pool is simply way too deep, and players are dependent upon weekly resets for guaranteed content. They could actually make a really simple change to improve the system immediately with a very low implementation cost: reset Eververse daily instead of weekly. There's a lot of other things they could do to improve Eververse, and I could go on and on, but suffice to say it's a really basic implementation right now, and it could be made way better without making players feel bad about it.

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So, this and the above answer from Esserius seem at odds, but it also looks like it could be perspectives from two different angles...one where the game depends on microtransactions, and one where it doesn't, which actually may or may not at the heart of the issue...is Destiny 2 built for and/or intended to be reliant on microtransactions, or not? That's not a question I think can be answered without having incite into Bungie's prioritization, as Esserius says, but again, I'm a figurative toddler when it comes to an understanding of the how and why of monetization design.

 

[Arsic]

What they need to hire is a new PR person.

I'll take the gig at 6 figure salary. I'll gladly get this all back on track.

 

[Darkspineslayer]

"But games are expensive to make guys!"

Sorry Bungie, not buying it. People enjoyed Halo for years without this garbage.

 

[Soul Unison]

Those "responsibilities" are just straight-up "Help us manipulate our playerbase while sharpening new methods of obscuring the manipulation!"

 

[Robdraggoo]

Uugh. I'm done. I defended bungie and Destiny for 3 years. Put well over 2k hours Through all the shit. I was disappointed with destiny 2 but played it for a little while.

But after this boring as shit dlc I paid in advance for, and all this slimey business practices, I can safely say I'm out now.

Feels good to be free

 

[takriel]

Suddenly I'm proud that I never bought a game from them.

 

[Legitmcfalls]

Because the expectation is that Bungie is investing in progression designs that further push players to buy those bright engrams. Doubling down rather than moving away from them.

Destiny is already a full priced game with several nigh-mandatory premium DLC expansions making it one of the most expensive games you can play right now (am excluding subscription MMOs here). You'd think that would be enough to ask of their playerbase in terms of support, but instead we'll see them push for additional never ending upsells, with deeper hooks into the game's core progression as time goes on, if MTX trends are anything to go by.

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But everyone here is assuming the absolute worst without thinking clearly. Eververse and bright engrams are not going away. They either saw what happened with BF2 and weary of heading down that same path or they want to expaned the eververse team to make purchasing mtx a more worth while experience, and thats why they are hiring for this position. Bungie has said their will be no pay to win aspects in eververse and until they actually add something like that we need to just chill out.

 

[esserius]

So, this and the above answer from Esserius seem at odds, but it also looks like it could be perspectives from two different angles...one where the game depends on microtransactions, and one where it doesn't, which actually may or may not at the heart of the issue...is Destiny 2 built for and/or intended to be reliant on microtransactions, or not? That's not a question I think can be answered without having incite into Bungie's prioritization, as Esserius says, but again, I'm a figurative toddler when it comes to an understanding of the how and why of monetization design.

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They're definitely at odds, but they are coming at microtransactions from different angles. I think it's a Content vs. Quality of Life discussion we're getting involved in.

 

[NullPointer]

But everyone here is assuming the absolute worst without thinking clearly. Eververse and bright engrams are not going away. They either saw what happened with BF2 and weary of heading down that same path or they want to expaned the eververse team to make purchasing mtx a more worth while experience, and thats why they are hiring for this position. Bungie has said their will be no pay to win aspects in eververse and until they actually add something like that we need to just chill out.

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Said each year as MTX continue to get worse and worse and more game affecting and less avoidable.

People chilled out and waited to see what BF2 would be like at release. How well did that work out for anybody involved? If anything, its the early days when people should make noise.

 

[Alek]

There are people that fill similar roles at almost every major triple A game that you play today. Any game with loot, or microtransactions, someone designed with the intent to have players engage with the system.

Many of these major publishers have hundreds of employees essentially searching for that perfect formula to engage players with the game, its reward systems, and its monetisation.

 

[Legitmcfalls]

Said each year as MTX continue to get worse and worse and more game affecting and less avoidable.

People chilled out and waited to see what BF2 would be like at release. How well did that work out for anybody involved? If anything, its the early days when people should make noise.

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So complaining about a job posting is the way to speak up? And your forgetting BF2 was absolutely torn apart pre launch by people so much so EA had to turn off all micro transactions and nearly sever the game economy in half just prior to release. We have spoken up before when something wasnt right and we will again if Destiny pulls any BF2 pay to progress style mtx.

 

[Grim]

I'm shitting bricks of worry for Borderlands 3. They're taking it way too far with these types of game. My only hope is that Randy like to 1 up everyone else he might exclude these practices lol.

 

[NullPointer]

So complaining about a job posting is the way to speak up? And your forgetting BF2 was absolutely torn apart pre launch by people so much so EA had to turn off all micro transactions and nearly sever the game economy in half just prior to release. We have spoken up before when something wasnt right and we will again if Destiny pulls any BF2 pay to progress style mtx.

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No, this news just signals a clear intention for Bungie to further expand upon the Eververse system and its monetization.

I don't know how that's good news for the players in any way.

 

[Anti]

I wonder how many people in this thread will end up buying it anyway...

They will still sell millions.

 

[Legitmcfalls]

No, this news just signals a clear intention for Bungie to further expand upon the Eververse system and its monetization.

I don't know how that's good news for the players in any way.

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Or they are trying to improve a system that isn't very good.

 

[Alek]

I'm shitting bricks of worry for Borderlands 3. They're taking it way too far with these types of game. My only hope is that Randy like to 1 up everyone else he might exclude these practices lol.

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He already said they don't agree with randomised monetisation.

 

[Al3x1s]

Will the game still be alive by the time they find the right candidate and he starts actual work on that and they decide on it and then implement it, and then can't they just fire him at that point since they'll have what they wanted?

 

[NullPointer]

Or they are trying to improve a system that isn't very good.

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The fact the Eververse is there at all isn't very good. Because of the incentives to make game designs and design changes to push players towards the premium store and up-sells. So you put all cosmetic drops into those crates. You make shaders single use. You have ever more reason to throttle progression, etc.

Improvement in this context means providing more reasons for players to buy more, on top of the already hefty cost of the core game and expansions. Improvement just means more will be locked behind those crates as time goes on.

I won't apologize for being cynical here; if anything I haven't been cynical enough about the way these systems have developed and will continue to develop.

 

[boxfactory]

lol. American style capitalism lead to the innovation that allowed you to play videogames like destiny. Get a grip son.

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Oh what would I do without games like Destiny 2 and Battlefront 2? Thank you Activision/Blizzard and EA. Yeah, no thanks, I have too many games I haven't played to buy their garbage.

'Greed' is a human construct engrained in every person's DNA in some form (yes, even you), not a nationalistic, ideological, or racial one.

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Oh so this is the straw that is breaking your back, as many things that you probably spend money on? How many people have the iPhone X or are buying hats and junk in Team Fortress, also...


...what does this has to do with America? Pretty sure 99% of businesses, and all entertainment businesses, are trying to get as much money as possible from a given market if consumers allow it. Let's not equate lootboxes to food prices or the cost of medicine.

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Greed exists, but there is usually a system in place to check the worse excesses of capitalism and in the US those checks don't seem to exist as much as other wealthy countries.

Sorry to break it to you, but the innovators of game monetization are Japan, Finland, and China. So blame Socialism or something. The Americans are playing catch-up.

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That's not how I understand it. Zynga and EA's Ultimate Team were there from the beginning. I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Nome]

So, the short version of this is that they simply didn't display the right numbers. If they'd have displayed, to the player, the xp number that ACTUALLY went towards progress versus the number that's seen by the player, it wouldn't have been as big a deal, or a non-issue (best case scenario).

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It wouldn't have been spun into "Bungie is trying to deceive us", that's for sure.
For the record, I don't think Bungie was trying to fool anyone. What got them into trouble is their communications policy, which seems to be more dependent on heavily-edited weekly blog posts than responsive dialogue. But I also cannot overstate how unnecessary it was to implement a complicated XP gating algorithm in the first place. WoW solved the progression problem years ago with rested XP, which D2 does have, just... with more unnecessary stuff on top.

So, this and the above answer from Esserius seem at odds, but it also looks like it could be perspectives from two different angles...one where the game depends on microtransactions, and one where it doesn't, which actually may or may not at the heart of the issue...is Destiny 2 built for and/or intended to be reliant on microtransactions, or not? That's not a question I think can be answered without having incite into Bungie's prioritization, as Esserius says, but again, I'm a figurative toddler when it comes to an understanding of the how and why of monetization design.

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There's no inherent conflict in our answers.

The goal of monetization in any game is always going to be to make more money, and hence the goal of any monetization design is to incentivize players to monetize. Destiny 2 is NOT designed to be a MTX-dependent game, but it doesn't need to be to have a successful MTX model. Counterstrike, Dota 2, and Overwatch are some successful examples of games that are not MTX-dependent, yet have great conversion rates and monetization models. Meanwhile, there are plenty of games that were designed to be MTX-dependent, but have poor monetization models (see 99% of the app store).

But as the other dude also mentions, D2's monetized elements simply aren't attractive enough. There's a lot of stuff, but most of it is junk. The Bright Engram armor is (IMO) some of the ugliest in the game, and doesn't have the right stats for min/maxers. I don't think the system needs an overhaul though, it just needs to be deeper.

 

[AkuMifune]

I feel like Luke Smith circa 2005 would have had some brilliantly snarky comments for what Destiny has become. Oh the ironing.

 

[Lord Brady]

I feel like Luke Smith circa 2005 would have had some brilliantly snarky comments for what Destiny has become. Oh the ironing.

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Luke Smith in September 2015: "The frustration is not surprising to us ... I think we didn't do a great job of explaining [locking content behind DLC] ahead of time, and in fact needed to do a better job ... we also haven't done a great job explaining what content players own."

 

[Nome]

That's not how I understand it. Zynga and EA's Ultimate Team were there from the beginning. I don't know what you're talking about.

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Sorry, should have clarified that current trends are primarily from those countries. You're right that the US did pioneer the initial techniques.

 

[Akita One]

Greed exists, but there is usually a system in place to check the worse excesses of capitalism and in the US those checks don't seem to exist as much as other wealthy countries.

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This is totally false, and whether checks and balances exist has nothing to do with how wealthy a country is...and certain, microsanctions are not an "excess"...the people have voted with their wallets that they don't mind it.

 

[Omegasquash]

They're definitely at odds, but they are coming at microtransactions from different angles. I think it's a Content vs. Quality of Life discussion we're getting involved in.

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One affects the other, that's for sure (Content/QoL)

It wouldn't have been spun into "Bungie is trying to deceive us", that's for sure.
For the record, I don't think Bungie was trying to fool anyone. What got them into trouble is their communications policy, which seems to be more dependent on heavily-edited weekly blog posts than responsive dialogue. But I also cannot overstate how unnecessary it was to implement a complicated XP gating algorithm in the first place. WoW solved the progression problem years ago with rested XP, which D2 does have, just... with more unnecessary stuff on top.

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I don't think that the base intent was to trick players, but I do think that they were perfectly content to let it go, since they had to know that the numbers displayed were deceptive. The response to that was, I agree, comms policy as demonstrated in the response once the algorithm was exposed.

There's no inherent conflict in our answers.

The goal of monetization in any game is always going to be to make more money, and hence the goal of any monetization design is to incentivize players to monetize. Destiny 2 is NOT designed to be a MTX-dependent game, but it doesn't need to be to have a successful MTX model. Counterstrike, Dota 2, and Overwatch are some successful examples of games that are not MTX-dependent, yet have great conversion rates and monetization models. Meanwhile, there are plenty of games that were designed to be MTX-dependent, but have poor monetization models (see 99% of the app store).

But as the other dude also mentions, D2's monetized elements simply aren't attractive enough. There's a lot of stuff, but most of it is junk. The Bright Engram armor is (IMO) some of the ugliest in the game, and doesn't have the right stats for min/maxers. I don't think the system needs an overhaul though, it just needs to be deeper.

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For sure, monetization is there to make more money, but my question was centered more around intent...is Destiny as a whole intended to be a traditional (as we know it) game, or a vehicle for improving MTX. The general consensus on the side that's upset is that it's more the latter than the former. Again, with better, and more direct, forthright, honest communication, most of this could have been avoided.

I'll admit that I'm still not buying the DLC until things are smoothed over, since I'm a believer in "money talks". The difficulty bump and prestige raid lock is a little concerning to me. I emphasize "concern" since I never got to finish the vanilla raid anyway, but that's more squad issues than being able to shoot things in the weak spot.

I appreciate you both taking the time to respond. Being better informed on, or at least having a resource that has understanding of these topics and the issues that relate to them go a long way. Thank you!

 

[Hubologist]

I hope the customer base responds in kind. They've lost me as a customer, that's for sure.

 

[methodiczero]

still upset i bought this game

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Same. Im gong to finish my titan so i can get the platinum trophy, cause i have an addiction, but then im deleting this from my PS4. And D1 as well. im done with Bungie

 

[Yasuke]

Not like this, Bungie.

Not like this.

 

[BBboy20]

Not like this, Bungie.

Not like this.

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This is the bed they've made.

 

[Earvin Infinity]

Bungie is just terrible now. What happened to the Bungie that made the Halo 3? That game was perfection. I think they need a reality check after all the backlash they get and once they break off from Activision's grips.

 

[theDidact]

Y'all should be supporting Titanfall 2.

 

[Orochinagis]

Remember when the addition of microtransactions was justified due to it only being there to fuel free content in the future?

Now they want to make microtransactions a progression system. Absolutely disgusting.

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Yeah like Sparrow races and seasonal events which incentives buy stuff with real money...and huh....not real content storywise

 

[Berserking-Guts]

As a Star Wars/Dice, Halo/Bungie fan, I can proudly say that I don't own Battlefront 2 or Destiny 2. I did my part.

 

[Deleted member 15395]

Bungie's dead to me. I hope people catch on quickly to this so D3 tanks when it releases.

 

[Deleted member 224]

Same. Im gong to finish my titan so i can get the platinum trophy, cause i have an addiction, but then im deleting this from my PS4. And D1 as well. im done with Bungie

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If you don't have the dlc you can't get the platinum trophy

 

[Stealthy Cockatrice]

Bungie, Bioware, Dice, etc. all but a shadow of their former selves. Its time to support smaller indie developers that are still free of corporations and hopefully someone will finally make a proper sci-fi game because I'm starving for some.

 

[Derrick01]

Games arent about fun anymore are they?

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In Destiny's case it never was. They designed the 1st game from the very start with psychologists instructing them on how to make it as addictive as possible.

This series was designed from the bottom to the top to be as profitable and manipulative as possible. When you're dealing with a project like that there's no art or creativity behind it, your only job is to keep the wheels spinning as smoothly as possible and letting the thing psychologists made do what it's supposed to do.

 

[VN1X]

"But games are expensive to make guys!"

Sorry Bungie, not buying it. People enjoyed Halo for years without this garbage.

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This made me laugh. Twice.

 

[Servbot24]

He already said they don't agree with randomised monetisation.

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I don't agree with the practices of major telecom companies, but one of them still gives me my paycheck. At the end of the day it will be about the money - though it may be that some devs look for the money in the good will of treating gamers right. I hope so anyways.

 

[dancegrenade]

Games arent about fun anymore are they?

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Only a few devs left who make "video games".

 

[Corncob]

Buying Destiny 2 and the season pass is my biggest gaming regret in years. I refuse to play the DLC and I'm done with those greedy fucks forever.

 

[i20bot]

Y'all should be supporting Titanfall 2.

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That reminds me. I bought during Thanksgiving and forgot about it. Gonna go install it later when I get home and after TGA.

 

[Boxxy]

Perhaps I'm just out of the loop, so feel free to school me on Bungie. Is there a specific eververse team at Bungie? If so, would it be so egregious that they're advertising a seat on said team?

Just trying to view this through the lens of an employer that manages multiple teams. An advert for an open position wouldn't scream "this is what they're focusing on???!" to me.

 

[nogoodnamesleft]

i used to be interested in getting this game one day

sounds like fuckin cancer now.

 

[Chettlar]

Perhaps I'm just out of the loop, so feel free to school me on Bungie. Is there a specific eververse team at Bungie? If so, would it be so egregious that they're advertising a seat on said team?

Just trying to view this through the lens of an employer that manages multiple teams. An advert for an open position wouldn't scream "this is what they're focusing on???!" to me.

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There are people that fill similar roles at almost every major triple A game that you play today. Any game with loot, or microtransactions, someone designed with the intent to have players engage with the system.

Many of these major publishers have hundreds of employees essentially searching for that perfect formula to engage players with the game, its reward systems, and its monetisation.

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Right but often this microtransaction loot is separate from the main loot if there is any. Bungie in this listing is equating the two under one designer with the sole purpose of pushing the former. This demonstrates that the perceived weakness in the normal loot is not just a perception, but on purpose on Bungie's part. That is depressing.

If it was just a new person to head up Eververse then I mean sure whatever that's expected. Every game dev needs that.

 

[SOLDIER]

I'm so happy.

I'm happy because these piece of shit companies are finally getting the public flogging they deserve, because everyone is in perfect harmony towards their hatred of them.

Don't stop when they're on the ground and reeling...keep on kicking them.

 

[Cyanity]

It's becoming impossibly difficult to defend Bungie as of late. I don't even know how to respond to this.

 

[Roshin]

The game is already out yet they still have to figure things out?

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Also, it's the second game.

 

[Kyrios]

AAA gaming at it's best /s

 

[Ryouji Gunblade]

I don't even like lootboxes in Overwatch. Can't defend it.

Hammer them into prioritizing activity rewards and not "level ups."