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Deleted member 25108

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The reason why the western market had no interest in past MH games was because of the obtuse systems and the restriction to handheld platform.

MHW has added tons of quality of life improvements and is now available to all three major systems and still maintaining the spirit of what makes the game great.

That's great an all, but improved controls are the hardest thing to sell to an uninterested audience.

People have to want to play something before they even give new control and QOL improvements a chance. And as of right now, that audience is not there.

Maybe a sequel to MHW will reap the benefits, but unless the game literally is lightening in a bottle, it' n going to be as big a success either in Japan or the west as the previous titles, despite costing alot more to make.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,933
and PS4 sold more than Switch since Switch launch
Wrong.

Problem is that Dark Souls 1 and 2 sold around 2.5 million respectively, with Dark Souls 3 hitting around 3 million. Assuming it sells over a million in Japan and does at least as good as a Dark Souls game does elsewhere, 4 million is probably the limit.

Just depends on what Capcom expects of it.
Are those figures console only? Because on Steam alone DS1 sold 3m, DS2 sold 2.5m and DS3 sold 2m.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,495
And you're ignoring the fact that it's an incredibly niche series in the West still compared to Resident Evil. Did two million western players show up for Nier? Persona? I'm not sure. But why do people think millions of players are gonna magically show up now just because it's on PS4. I'm buying it, but that's because I always followed the series. Are there gonna be millions of bitter Sony fans who ignored MonHun the last six years who will all suddenly show up in the millions?

This is not a surefire hit and capcom has to know that.

Niche as designed but not niche within the scope of what it should be

This push feels new and we can stop acting like MH is some special snowflake that couldn't capture co op audiences the way that other games in similar genres do

MHWorld is the best effort they have made in this space so Im excited to see how it does instead of predicting its doom because I have a damn chip on my shoulder
 

Kouriozan

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Oct 25, 2017
21,158
A bit crazy they are praising Capcom's Switch games performance when they don't want to commit more support there.
 

Deleted member 25108

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What do you propose they do? Make all future RE releases action co-op titles? Have MH be PS4/NSW/3DS going forward?

Honestly, I have no answers for Capcoms problems. I can only say their current strategy clearly isn't working despite investor confidence, confidence that could be related to a myriad of factors outside of successful game development and publishing.
 
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Freddie13

Member
Nov 2, 2017
640
And you're ignoring the fact that it's an incredibly niche series in the West still compared to Resident Evil. Did two million western players show up for Nier? Persona? I'm not sure. But why do people think millions of players are gonna magically show up now just because it's on PS4. I'm buying it, but that's because I always followed the series. Are there gonna be millions of bitter Sony fans who ignored MonHun the last six years who will all suddenly show up in the millions?

This is not a surefire hit and capcom has to know that.
Fair assessment I think
 

Deleted member 9584

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Niche as designed but not niche within the scope of what it should be

This push feels new and we can stop acting like MH is some special snowflake that couldn't capture co op audiences the way that other games in similar genres do

MHWorld is the best effort they have made in this space so Im excited to see how it does instead of predicting its doom because I have a damn chip on my shoulder


And you're ignoring the fact that I said I'm buying it, just as I did Nier and Persona. If there's a chip on my shoulder, it must've not been salted.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,072
Then you might ask yourself: how are these parts going to affect those people that weren't into MH before?

1) QoL improvements -> not noticed by those who never played MH before; not enough to make the game really palatable to Western gamers.
2) On popular platforms -> doesn't assure automatic success.
3) Modern graphic -> MHW is gorgeous but it's not really the prettier game out there; PS4 and Xbox One audience is pretty graphic demanding.
4) Modern controls -> I don't see what this has to do with MH gameplay...?
5) Strong Marketing -> indeed, that's a point in favor.
6) Strong word of mouth -> we need to understand this.
7) No lootboxes -> general audience doesn't even know what a lootboxe is (and those who know probably like them).

Look, I'm pretty sure MHW will be able to attract new gamers to the franchise. But will it be able to attract enough gamers to make the venture profitable? I don't think so.

Also, people keep mentioning Dark Souls. But Dark Souls is not a huge seller by any means. Its success, also, was built across the years, across consistent releases.

- QoL Improvement brings back people who were burned by past games
- On Consoles and PC opens up a large market
- Modern graphics and controls brings back people who were burned by past games and allows a smooth introduction for newcomers
- No lootboxes add to the positive reception which in turns helps the word of mouth spread.

Marketing is obvious.

Like I've said, it's the sum of all these things that tips the scale in MHW's favor.

I only brought up Dark Souls to make a point that difficulty is not really the deterrent that it once was anymore.
 

Deleted member 5167

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Why do they need the mobile market exactly? Would you call any company that doesn't do mobile games "doomed"?

Other Japanese publishers have strong mobile sales to help offset any failures in the 'core' markets.
Capcom don't have any strong mobile presence, and are currently only making failures*

*unexpected successes on Nintendo hardware they're not particularly supporting excluded.
 

Rogote

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,606
Nice to see Switch so healthy even though I'm not propably buying it. It seems like Sony and Nintendo will finish this gen hand in hand as rivals. Microsoft gonna have to do dat work in the future.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,495
When we talk precedent with regards to monster hunter we forget that this series has never been given a serious console effort since PS2

MH Tri on Wii was the serious and on a popular system but the Online co op audience was on Xbox and we all knew it. Thankfully it still sold well despite its problems because Wii was cheap and most people had one. As good as Tri was lets not pretend it was the golden beacon for the series for the long term... and it never got a follow up until

MH3U - Arguably the best and most full featured Console MH game to date and my favorite console edition until now. Do I need to explain to people why this ACUTALLY failed? It's not because MH is a niche serious that stupid westerner dont like or cant wrap their head around (MH fans showed up on 3DS even those that preferred playing on console). They console was unfortunately doomed... which is sad cuz I still liked the WiiU and this effort

My point being... There is no BASELINE or precedent for how well a console MH could do because this level of effort and evoliution of the series hasnt happened... in its history

To be exactly where and when you need to be, on the top global platform of online co op gaming, as well as the top global platform period (PC) is a very good place to be for what is arguably the most accessible and modern MH game ever made.

So forgive me for being bullish on its chances.
 
- QoL Improvement brings back people who were burned by past games
- On Consoles and PC opens up a large market
- Modern graphics and controls brings back people who were burned by past games and allows a smooth introduction for newcomers
- No lootboxes add to the positive reception which in turns helps the word of mouth spread.

Marketing is obvious.

Like I've said, it's the sum of all these things that tips the scale in MHW's favor.

I only brought up Dark Souls to make a point that difficulty is not really the deterrent that it once was anymore.
This is a point that I see brought up a lot, but I'm not sure how realistic a goal this is when the Monster Hunter fan base in the US has only grown and grown, leading me to believe that the only people that care about the QOL improvements are already fans of the series. How many people do you really think have been put off by the series are going to come back because you have a tracker for materials or can access an in-game Wiki for damage zones?
 

Jawmuncher

Crisis Dino
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Oct 25, 2017
38,564
Ibis Island
A bit crazy they are praising Capcom's Switch games performance when they don't want to commit more support there.
What? The other threads came off more like "fuck we gotta scramble to put out more games" than "we ain't gonna bother with Switch"

Of course they're not gonna just come out and say what titles they have planned.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,072
This is a point that I see brought up a lot, but I'm not sure how realistic a goal this is when the Monster Hunter fan base in the US has only grown and grown, leading me to believe that the only people that care about the QOL improvements are already fans of the series. How many people do you really think have been put off by the series are going to come back because you have a tracker for materials or can access an in-game Wiki for damage zones?

Well, I think anything that makes a game system less obtuse can do wonders to bring Back a crowd. Assuming it doesn't compromise the core gameplay.

And by all accounts it's not just one or two changes, it seems they made tons of improvements. Enough to fill a 20min YouTube video!
 

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
Italy
- QoL Improvement brings back people who were burned by past games
- On Consoles and PC opens up a large market
- Modern graphics and controls brings back people who were burned by past games and allows a smooth introduction for newcomers
- No lootboxes add to the positive reception which in turns helps the word of mouth spread.

Marketing is obvious.

Like I've said, it's the sum of all these things that tips the scale in MHW's favor.

I only brought up Dark Souls to make a point that difficulty is not really the deterrent that it once was anymore.

The series grew on 3DS, and in fact it grew entry over entry in Western markets. Hard to say whether the number of people that "got burned" by past games is significant. Also, the issue is not the difficulty per se, but the gameplay style. There's a reason why MH is not that popular over here and is not related to the console where it was released (PS2 and Wii included!).

The only thing I agree with is the possibilities of becoming big on PC. Otherwise, I'm not expecting MHW to break out over here because of nicer graphics and QOL improvements.
 

SgtCobra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,867
And I have a negative outlook for the JP market for everything that's not Nintendo related.
 
Well, I think anything that makes a game system less obtuse can do wonders to bring Back a crowd. Assuming it doesn't compromise the core gameplay.

And by all accounts it's not just one or two changes, it seems they made tons of improvements. Enough to fill a 20min YouTube video!
But that's my point: what "crowd" have they lost in the first place? MH1 sold so poorly in the west that they didn't localize the second game, and from what we saw in the past for NPD numbers back when our cups were runneth over, the sales of the PSP titles weren't remarkably better than that. Even if you stick to just Nintendo hardware, the series has only grown and grown with each entry. Who have they really lost that they need to bring back?
 

DrROBschiz

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Oct 25, 2017
16,495
But that's my point: what "crowd" have they lost in the first place? MH1 sold so poorly in the west that they didn't localize the second game, and from what we saw in the past for NPD numbers back when our cups were runneth over, the sales of the PSP titles weren't remarkably better than that. Even if you stick to just Nintendo hardware, the series has only grown and grown with each entry. Who have they really lost that they need to bring back?

You are gonna use MH1 as your example? Seriously?

Im convinced that we have been in a "bubble" with this series for sooo long that we cannot fathom the broad appeal this game could have

MHW is the shot in the arm we need to wake the hell up seriously
 
You are gonna use MH1 as your example? Seriously?

Im convinced that we have been in a "bubble" with this series for sooo long that we cannot fathom the broad appeal this game could have

MHW is the shot in the arm we need to wake the hell up seriously
Why wouldn't I? It's outdated as all hell now, but back then, the only point of comparison it had was PSO and had the market all to itself as far as the west and the PS2 was concerned, as PSU wasn't even a glimmer in someone's eye at that point. Capcom even went as far as giving the western release more content than the original Japanese release, including the dual blades. It's not like they didn't make a serious effort to try to appeal to the mainstream even back then.
 

Deleted member 5167

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Im convinced that we have been in a "bubble" with this series for sooo long that we cannot fathom the broad appeal this game could have

MHW hasn't done anything like enough to fundamentally change its core gameplay loops to have broad appeal though - "its the most accessible MonHun ever!" is still incredibly far removed from "Its an accessible game".
If you're already a fan of the series things like QoL improvements matter.
If you're not, it is still - apologies in advance to people that like the series - a pretty tedious and unfulfilling single player game, and a frustrating experience jumping into a random group with 3 other people that you do not already know.

Which is the experience most people are going to have.
 

Anteo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,101
I still think is hiliarous that Capcom despite basically ignoring the Switch they are actually getting great results on it.

Looks like a lot of people here really don't want MHW to be successful.

Maybe, but there are also a lot of people that think MHW wont be succesful.
I think capcom will put a imposible sales target for mhw.
 

zomgbbqftw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
331
London, UK
And I have a negative outlook for the JP market for everything that's not Nintendo related.
Given there are going to be ~80m PS4s sold in by the end of March that seems a little bit silly. There's a lot of room for Japanese pubs to succeed on PS4 and Switch, in fact that should become the standard release strategy going forwards. I think a lot of publishers were caught unawares by the success of the Switch. You can't blame them after the Wii U and the Switch was a similar enough concept to make them wary, western publishers certainly took the same attitude.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,495
MHW hasn't done anything like enough to fundamentally change its core gameplay loops to have broad appeal though - "its the most accessible MonHun ever!" is still incredibly far removed from "Its an accessible game".
If you're already a fan of the series things like QoL improvements matter.
If you're not, it is still - apologies in advance to people that like the series - a pretty tedious and unfulfilling single player game, and a frustrating experience jumping into a random group with 3 other people that you do not already know.

Which is the experience most people are going to have.

The entire game has been fundamentally changed what? MHW is a massive shift for the series and anyone familiar with the game recognizes this

Are you wearing blinders and choosing to ignore this? The information is all over the place
 

Deleted member 3017

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I think the best case scenario for MHW is around 5 million units lifetime, which would put it in line with Portable 3rd. With three platforms to support the game, that number seems possible.
 

fiendcode

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Oct 26, 2017
24,933
I think capcom will put a imposible sales target for mhw.
They're not giving a target for MHW. The wagons are already circling.

I think the best case scenario for MHW is around 5 million units lifetime, which would put it in line with Portable 3rd. With three platforms to support the game, that number seems possible.
5m would still be a decline from Gen 4 which debuted with 5.6m globally (4.1m MH4 Japan + 1.5m MH4U west).
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
Other Japanese publishers have strong mobile sales to help offset any failures in the 'core' markets.
Capcom don't have any strong mobile presence, and are currently only making failures*

*unexpected successes on Nintendo hardware they're not particularly supporting excluded.
But they have been doing fine so far and I don't think it's fair to call their games failures just because they don't reach their forcasts, underperform? Yes, but as I've said in the other thread, they always aim for the sky with their forcasts, they should try to be reasonable with them.
 
The entire game has been fundamentally changed what? MHW is a massive shift for the series and anyone familiar with the game recognizes this

Are you wearing blinders and choosing to ignore this? The information is all over the place
At the end of the day, the seamless zones, larger lobbies and better interactions between multiple monsters are window dressing for the gameplay flow, which remains unchanged on a fundamental level. All the QOL changes in the world will mean jack shit if they can't hook people with that, and that can't be denied.

I would love for this game to succeed wildly, but I think that there are very real obstacles in its path that can't be easily avoided.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,495
At the end of the day, the seamless zones, larger lobbies and better interactions between multiple monsters are window dressing for the gameplay flow, which remains unchanged on a fundamental level. All the QOL changes in the world will mean jack shit if they can't hook people with that, and that can't be denied.

I would love for this game to succeed wildly, but I think that there are very real obstacles in its path that can't be easily avoided.

You guys are massively underselling the changes

Nothing about the game went untouched and you listing a couple examples and claiming they wont matter doesnt make that statement true
 
You guys are massively underselling the changes

Nothing about the game went untouched and you listing a couple examples and claiming they wont matter doesnt make that statement true
If someone doesn't want to keep running the same monster multiple times to get what they need for their next set, what feature is going to overcome that objection? That's the game right there.
 

DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,495
If someone doesn't want to keep running the same monster multiple times to get what they need for their next set, what feature is going to overcome that objection? That's the game right there.

People play loot games all the time. MH isn't some special snowflake that drives away players. It seems weird to me that people that love the series so much would go through so much trouble to talk potential players out of it

As for that particular example they have removed the Gunner/Blademaster split (so let materials required to complete sets), added tracking towards desired pieces, and even outlined how to get desired pieces through ingame "wiki" mechanic there for reducing time spent grinding. But this isnt the topic for discussing info on MHW specifically
 

Anteo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,101
If someone doesn't want to keep running the same monster multiple times to get what they need for their next set, what feature is going to overcome that objection? That's the game right there.

Oh and before anyone comes and says "its totally posible to go through the game with one or two armor sets, no need to grind", this is not true for novice players.
 

SgtCobra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,867
Given there are going to be ~80m PS4s sold in by the end of March that seems a little bit silly. There's a lot of room for Japanese pubs to succeed on PS4 and Switch, in fact that should become the standard release strategy going forwards. I think a lot of publishers were caught unawares by the success of the Switch. You can't blame them after the Wii U and the Switch was a similar enough concept to make them wary, western publishers certainly took the same attitude.
You're looking at the WW sales of Japanese software right? Because in that case I wholeheartedly agree with you.
But if we look at how the market is in Japan then the current state of affairs paints a quite disappointing picture for the future in my eyes. The PS4 isn't really a competitive system compared to the Switch right now, we know Sony's not gonna make a new portable so that area of the market is empty for them (Except for the Vita but c'mon..). And let's not talk about the Xbox brand which has almost 0 relevance over there.
In a few years I'm afraid it will become almost a one man's show, I'm not saying the others will quit in Japan but there won't be much competition over there.
 
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DrROBschiz

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Oct 25, 2017
16,495
Oh and before anyone comes and says "its totally posible to go through the game with one or two armor sets, no need to grind", this is not true for novice players.

Well its a good thing we have

- Environmental tools
- Slingers
- Better movement options
- Mantles
- Drop in Co Op
- Training room and Expanded Tutorials
- etc etc etc etc

Ya know... we have great community and front page topic dedicated to the game
 

zomgbbqftw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
331
London, UK
You're looking at the WW sales of Japanese games right? In that case I wholeheartedly agree with you. But if we look at how the market is in Japan then the current state of affairs paints a quite disappointing picture for the future in my eyes. The PS4 is not really a competitive system compared to the Switch and we know Sony's not gonna make a new portable. And let's not talk about the Xbox brand which has almost 0 relevance over there.
In a few years I'm afraid it will become almost a one man's show, I'm not saying the others will quit in Japan but there won't be much competition over there.
Well you have to look at the WW picture, anyone who doesn't is excluding 90% of the market. In Japan the story is different, but Japanese publishers who only look at the Japanese market are probably investing in mobile more than anything else, dedicated consoles are facing an increasingly tough uphill battle. The reason Capcom have gone down the route they have with MHW is that they can't take a massive punt on the Japanese market and completely ignore RoW consumers. It's a gamble, but probably about the same as betting on Japan alone is as well.
 

Deleted member 5167

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The entire game has been fundamentally changed what? MHW is a massive shift for the series and anyone familiar with the game recognizes this

Are you wearing blinders and choosing to ignore this? The information is all over the place

With all due respect, you're obviously a fan of the series and I would suggest you are the one who has blinders on.
MHW is still recognisably MonHun. It hasn't "fundamentally changed".

People who have bounced off of its gameplay loops in prior titles are not going to change their minds suddenly.
It is still going to be a fairly opaque and grindy title that is unforgiving to newcomers.
Its core gameplay is intact - and for fans of the series, that is a good thing. It is still recognisably a MonHun game.

If you are not already a fan, it is not crazy talk to suggest that those gameplay loops are not in fact particularly accessible or hold much broad appeal.
 
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