Concerning Spider-man's pro-NYPD/surveillance state messages

[TheModestGun]

Yeah I never said anyone shouldn't criticize this. Just felt that "If games want to be treated as art they need to start acting like it." isn't a strong argument against Spider-man in this case because games can be treated as art without everyone game acting like some expected definition of art. Like I said, this doesn't free it from criticism, but it also doesn't make games on a whole any less artistic as a medium. That was the only intent of my response!

Click to shrink...

Criticism is fine and often can be important, but I think it's gotten a little silly with how self serious people have become about the games as Art line of thinking. Maybe it's a byproduct of it being historically considered a "child's plaything". But it seems like people are trying way too hard to prove something to themselves and others by being so self serious.

No one would ever say Eternal Sunshine isn't art just because Transformers is product placement as a movie.

And for that matter I think people need to acknowledge and realize that sometimes the perspectives their critique are coming from are only one lens to view something through. Only in the most staunchly leftist view could you ever read Spider-Man as being "pro cop" and that isn't even addressing the issue that some of the things people are claiming aren't even in the game. There are too many people that are treating their lens as objective fact.

 

[iliketopaint_93]

I think it's weird that people are bringing up the "games as art" argument. Has the Spider-man IP ever attempted being art? It's escapism. It's entertainment and power fantasy for someone who wants to see a more just world, but the goals of the authors of that comic were never about challenging the status quo or offering complicated insights about humanity the way comics from Marjane Satrapi, Art Spiegelman , R. Crumb and Alan Moore attempt to do. I guess anything can be art if you want, but from an art history perspective Spider-Man isn't attempting to do what memorable art has done and does, so applying those standards to the video game doesn't make sense to me.

That's not to say its story can't be improved by portraying of the police more truthfully. Depending on your perspective, cops as a whole are monsters or heros but in reality the shades of grey of morality apply to them as much as anyone else in society. So I think (and keep in mind I'm about 60% through the game) the issue of portraying the cops as all good guys in MSM can be solved simply by adding several cop characters in the sequel who are terrible people. And also some who are morally conflicted and more neutral. Ideally they would all be as heroic IRL as they are portrayed as in the game, but that's just not how it is, unfortunately, and there's no reason to whitewash it via defaulting your game's adaptation of that story to the perspectives of the comic's writers several decades ago.

 

[Vicious17]

the issue of portraying the cops as all good guys in MSM can be solved simply by adding several cop characters in the sequel who are terrible people.

Click to shrink...

2 things.

1. The first 10 minutes of the game has corrupt cops on Fisk's payroll. The rest of the game has several points where Yuri comes to you because she doesn't know who she can trust.

2. I obviously have no proof on this, and this is just a stab in the dark, but the way cops are portrayed in this game, is how they're portrayed in most Marvel Superhero comics. Spider-Man especially. It's an ideal world where the majority of the cops in NYC are doing the right thing. I believe that even if Insomniac wants to, Marvel may not allow them to go further with that.

 

[Mzo]

This is so cringy. Art doesn't have to be reverent to be art. Also if you ever thought a mainstream comic hero game would EVER tackle the idea drug dealers in a subtle deep depiction, that's on you for being completely out of touch.

This is the video game equivalent of an action blockbuster. Not a deep independent art house drama.

Your idea of "art critique"' is naval gazing stupidity.

You wouldn't see a film critic approaching a movie like Die Hard asking for a realistic reverent depiction of a hostage crisis and complaining "why didn't they explore the deeper motivations of the bad guys and make them more human and empathetic"

Everyone knows what Die Hard is trying to be. Anyone who isn't a complete moron should be able to deduce the same about Spider-Man.

Click to shrink...

This is a great argument because Die Hard is actually full of great subtext. So much of it's production is really well thought-out and any film critic would have a field day with it. It's such a well-made movie.

A better example would be brainless garbage like A Good Day to Die Hard.

Also, weird misconception going around that something has to try and be art. If it's made by human hands, it's influenced by the lives and biases of its creators and can be examined by anyone that cares to in order to draw out the messages in subtext.

Also weird thing with the drugs. No matter where you live, poor people are doing drugs, rich people are doing drugs, possibly in the house next to you right now. Whether that industry gets decriminalized or not won't affect you since I assume you don't do drugs in this scenario. There's a demand for the product whether you think it's right to possibly damage yourself with addictive substances or not. Decriminalization clears up the crime necessity of it and makes it a lot safer. Millions of people die as it is from tobacco and alcohol, yet they're super strong industries. What's the difference?

I guess maybe if you tie your personal morality down to regional laws, which would be really weird if you were to travel to different countries.

 

[TheModestGun]

This is a great argument because Die Hard is actually full of great subtext. So much of it's production is really well thought-out and any film critic would have a field day with it. It's such a well-made movie.

A better example would be brainless garbage like A Good Day to Die Hard.

Click to shrink...

Subtext yes, but it does not concern itself with making you feel bad for the bad guys. The film kills them off one by one without ever trying to portray them as sympathetic.

The point being that there really isn't that complex of a morality to the films internal logic. Hans Gruber is compelling but he is still ultimately portrayed as scummy.

It knows it's a gritty action movie. And gasp it portrays police in positive manner (depending on the officer).

And I mainly used it as an example because it's a better comparison in my mind to Marvel's Spider-Man than Transformers. Transformers is garbage. Spider-Man is not.

 

[Kurtofan]

ACAB

even Spider-cops

 

[Khanimus]

I agree that the NYPD among many other US LE institutions are corrupt and broken in entirety, and I also agree that those many good apples among the bad not doing enough to fight against said corruption from within become complicit in the crimes of said institution, but to pretend that every LEO is a corrupt, evil, indidvudial that should never have the good they do recognised is counterproductive and factually wrong.

The way I see it, you'll never see change in a corrupt policing system when you continue to smear the few good cops within the system with the same brush as the many rotten apples.

Click to shrink...

I don't understand this... how does portraying the police system as trustworthy not just shove the reality under the rug? Like "oh well if you keep being critical of their problems, they'll never improve" is such backwards logic.

 

[BigTnaples]

I don't understand this... how does portraying the police system as trustworthy not just shove the reality under the rug? Like "oh well if you keep being critical of their problems, they'll never improve" is such backwards logic.

Click to shrink...

There's a difference between being critical and shaming.


The conversation is happening, that does not mean that anything pro law enforcement should be frowned upon or labeled problematic. The fact is less than one half of one percent of law enforcement interactions have a bad turn out.

Sure there are some egregious incidents with horrific outcomes, and not to diminish the horror that is those, but although you could watch body cam and cell phone videos of these incidents, maybe a few hours worth, one could have their eyes spread open Clockwork Orange style and be made to watch 24/7 video of LEOs being gunned down, stabbed, performing heroic acts, 24/7 for weeks worth of footage.

Point being is, yes there is a problem, but you are doing millions of people who risk their lives daily a huge disservice by dismissing them as "bad".

 

[Khanimus]

There's a difference between being critical and shaming.


The conversation is happening, that does not mean that anything pro law enforcement should be frowned upon or labeled problematic. The fact is less than one half of one percent of law enforcement interactions have a bad turn out.

Sure there are some Egregious incidents with horrific outcomes, and not to diminish the horror that is those, but although you could watch body cam and cell phone videos of these incidents, maybe a few hours worth, one could have there eyes spread open clockwork Orange style and be made to watch 24/7 video of LEOs being gunned down, stabbed, performing heroic acts, 24/7 for weeks worth of footage.

Point being is, yes there is a problem, but you are doing millions of people who risk their lives daily a huge disservice by dismissing them as "bad".

Click to shrink...

When young black kids have to be taught in schools how to interact with the police as to not be killed, I really really don't fucking care what percentage you pull out of thin air because that suggests a culture that is far too fucked up to say "Don't be hard on the cops..." And you're also assuming that those "bad apples" are dealt with promptly and appropriately, as if police unions don't go out of their way to protect those bad apples. Accountability fucking matter, and among police organizations, it does not exist.

 

[CastorKrieg]

Which is kind of the point. Shit like that doesn't happen on every corner of New York on a 20 min interval. By having the only real depiction of the drug trade in the city being 20 dudes with military grade weaponry shooting up people it reinforces the narrative that places like fox news pedals by reducing a complex real world issue down to a complete caricature of reality for no other reason than gameplay convenience.

Click to shrink...

You want to smoke weed. Weed is illegal. Thus by buying weed you are breaking the law. Try to spin it as much as you want and to normalize weed, it still won't change the fact that it is illegal in many states. 'Complex real world issue' is you wanting to get high legally.

 

[Khanimus]

You want to smoke weed. Weed is illegal. Thus by buying weed you are breaking the law. Try to spin it as much as you want and to normalize weed, it still won't change the fact that it is illegal in many states. 'Complex real world issue' is you wanting to get high legally.

Click to shrink...

Yes, let's defend laws brazenly meant to target black people and hippies under the Nixon administration. Because that's where the moral line is.

 

[CastorKrieg]

Yes, let's defend laws brazenly meant to target black people and hippies under the Nixon administration. Because that's where the moral line is.

Click to shrink...

Do only black people smoke weed?

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Congratulations on being the umpteenth person in this thread that never touched the game.

These "non violent drug offenders" are running around with military grade fucking weaponry and literal truck loads of cocaine. He's not hospitalizing the random dude buying fucking weed.

Click to shrink...

"That was just 100 kilos of sugar blocks in the back of my car; honest officer!"

 

[Mr. Sam]

That people are almost trying to position this as something that shouldn't even be discussed astonishes me. That a game can have overt allusions to Alex Jones and Donald Trump and even have an in-universe social media feed in which characters argue over politics but apparently should be immune from discussion about how Spider-Man spends a good portion of the game mending police surveillance towers is basically the definition of having a cake and eating it.

 

[Mzo]

If you read the tweets you'd know webs dissolve after a couple of hours!

Click to shrink...

Except when it's an old, webbed backpack from high school.

 

[BigTnaples]

That people are almost trying to position this as something that shouldn't even be discussed astonishes me. That a game can have overt allusions to Alex Jones and Donald Trump and even have an in-universe social media feed in which characters argue over politics but apparently should be immune from discussion about how Spider-Man spends a good portion of the game mending police surveillance towers is basically the definition of having a cake and eating it.

Click to shrink...

They aren't survailence towers though... They aren't listening in to private conversations... They literally just broadcast the dispatch calls and spider Man can then respond to robberies and car chases and whatnot.

In the real world you can do this with an app on your phone.

The whole premise of this thread is misleading.

 

[TheKidObi]

Everyone knows what Die Hard is trying to be. Anyone who isn't a complete moron should be able to deduce the same about Spider-Man.

Click to shrink...

Exactly, after reading the last couple pages I'm amazed how people want spider man to tackle real life issues because his busting people for drugs lol, it's a fucking video game about a super hero people don't seem to get.

 

[Khanimus]

Do only black people smoke weed?

Click to shrink...

Not at all, but that doesn't stop law enforcement from disproportionately targeting them over white people for low level drug offenses.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn...chard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html

 

[HotTakeCakes]

I like a lot of drugs. They never explicitly say what the drugs are.

Click to shrink...

He literally does say what they are and you see someone use it too.

Edit. Oh didn't realise I was 28 pages lttp.

 

[Bishop89]

If games want to be treated as art they need to start acting like it.

Click to shrink...

Who wants games treated as art?
It's OK to have games just be fun and nothing else.

 

[Gold Arsene]

Edit:fuck it I'm not getting into this.

 

[Keldroc]

Except when it's an old, webbed backpack from high school.

Click to shrink...

He hadn't perfected the web formula back then. City spent a fortune cleaning off the streetlamps the first three years.

Who wants games treated as art?
It's OK to have games just be fun and nothing else.

Click to shrink...

Anyone who doesn't want the industry regulated by a government agency? Being art comes with a lot of advantages in terms of content choice and portrayal.

 

[Deleted member 6230]

Spider-man sold 3.3 million copies in 3 days. It's not art-art. That would be like looking to a Michael Bay or Marvel movie and wondering what's with the lack of nuance in the politics depicted lol.


But they do, so your point here is stupid. They just didn't take one political stance some people wanted them to take, they have lots of other political stances in the game. It's not a subtle game. Political corruption and the dangers of a privatized police state are major parts of the storyline.

Click to shrink...

That's a really silly argument to make. People should be encouraged to analyze the subtext of any piece of media they want to whether it's a summer blockbuster or a Sundance film festival darling.

In fact there's someone going that with Michael Bay's Transformers movies. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJGOq3JclTH8J73o2Z4VMaSYZDNG3xeZ7

 

[Saint-14]

This is such a silly article after playing the game.

 

[jawzpause]

I noticed it bit saw it as a trivial gameplay mechanic so they couod get Assassin's Creed towers in.

I would not go as far as calling it gross because at the end of the day spidey does good, the cops in the game were actually good and on Spidey's side all the way and it us after all a video game.

Click to shrink...

Yes this is how i see it too, i don't think they intentionally meant to endorse the police in this way but it is being portrayed like that

 

[Andy Mac]

Anyone remember when we used to just have these conversations for fun?

You know, you'd be sitting around with your buddies and you'd have a laugh at how Batman is a complete asshole and how when you just get down to it the fundamental concept is ridiculous and in real life this guy would be seen as an unhinged terrorist.

Or maybe you'd discuss how Luke Skywalker must have literally killed millions when he blew up the death star etc but it wasn't like a serious conversation.

Whatever happened to those days?

Now it seems like people are legitimately angry because Spider-Man is battering the shite out of drug dealers and is helping the cops.

OF COURSE Spider-Man is going to be unrealistic and OF COURSE in the game there are going to be some things that don't jive with reality.

"Hey, we need some way for players to unlock the map and then get notifications of activities they can complete"
"Also, we need to offer players combat related activities that involve Spider-Man stopping crimes"

I think it's OK to look at the absurdity of the game and the way it obviously wouldn't work in reality but I don't get why it's so serious for folks.

They should just make it if Spider-Man dies in the game then that's it. Game Over and you can't play anymore because Spider-Man is dead.

 

[alexiswrite]

Of course, people are going to have this problem when the game tries to engage in nuance, in regards to societal issues, when it comes to "Peter Parker", but immediately loses that nuance when it comes to "SpiderMan". That jarring nature is why we're having this conversation in the first place. This game is actually trying to be nuanced in some areas which is why it's lack of nuance in some areas is so puzzling, comparing this to something like John Wick or something like that, which is not trying to be nuanced, is a false comparison.

 

[Jedeye Sniv]

Street level vigilante fiction is by its nature authoritarian and anti-crime. Every superhero that's focusing on cleaning up the streets is targeting the marginalised. Spider-Man, Batman, Daredevil, Moon Knight - they're all tools of The Man.

 

[Riderz1337]

I heard it too.

Also will say it's rather disingenuous to have such an expectation to record every second of gameplay in case some dude on the internet wants proof. This isn't a PC with an Nvidia card and shadowplay enabled lol

Click to shrink...

You heard him say he likes to hospitalize non violent drug busts?

Show me where the non violent drug busts are in the game.

 

[Deleted member 4461]

Getting deeper into this game and I really don't like Mary Jane, I feel emotionally abused

Click to shrink...

Mary Jane is a dumbass & Peter was right the whole time. Worst depiction of her.

Would have actually been better if she were some form of law enforcement (funny enough) as opposed to a reporter that constantly makes stupid, life-threatening choices.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I don't understand this... how does portraying the police system as trustworthy not just shove the reality under the rug? Like "oh well if you keep being critical of their problems, they'll never improve" is such backwards logic.

Click to shrink...

I understand that it's sometimes hard to follow a thread of discussion within an already fast moving thread topic but at least try to understand the post you're responding to in context.

For your benefit, see below the posts I was resppnding to:

As already covered there is no surveillance state.


And what the hell is wrong with Pro NYPD? The anti police retoric here is disgusting. By and large LEOs are fantastic at their jobs, and lose their lives defending others at am absolutely alarming rate.

Yes there are bad apples, but to act like anything pro law enforcement is in the wrong is absolutely insane.

Click to shrink...

This was responded to by Vela who wrote this:

Read up on the history of the NYPD. They're a racist institution. It's not just some bad apples, it's the whole system.

The US police should never be glorified. They do horrible, horrible things to civilians.

Click to shrink...

To which I responded this:

I agree that the NYPD among many other US LE institutions are corrupt and broken in entirety, and I also agree that those many good apples among the bad not doing enough to fight against said corruption from within become complicit in the crimes of said institution, but to pretend that every LEO is a corrupt, evil, indidvudial that should never have the good they do recognised is counterproductive and factually wrong.

The way I see it, you'll never see change in a corrupt policing system when you continue to smear the few good cops within the system with the same brush as the many rotten apples.

Click to shrink...

No where was I advotlcating portraying he US policing system as trustworthy, so I have no idea what strawman you pulled that out of.

I was merely commenting on Vela's response to BigTnaples' post that "US Police should never be glorified", which I disagree with as entirely bonkers and counter-productive in fight against institutionalized racism within a corrupt US policing system.

If you're equating my disagreement with the above statement as a statement that the US Policing institutions should always be glorified and that reality should be swept under the rug, then I'd argue that a gross failure in your logic.

The evils of the US policing system need to be openly and transparently publicized so that everyone can see how rotten it is. However, the good that the few good cops within said system do shouldn't be hidden either. That's not glorifying US cops, and frankly neither is the fictional NYPD's depiction in Spiderman comics, imho.

I don't consider taking a stand against the tyrrany of US policing institutions while simulatenously recognising the good that the few good cops within said system who get it right do as two mutually incompatible things. An institution can be both corrupt and contain individuals who are not themselves actively such.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

They aren't survailence towers though... They aren't listening in to private conversations... They literally just broadcast the dispatch calls and spider Man can then respond to robberies and car chases and whatnot.

In the real world you can do this with an app on your phone.

The whole premise of this thread is misleading.

Click to shrink...

I agree. Not sure what we're supposed to be outraged about?

He helps the police fix their communication towers to broadcast APBs about crimes. He then listens in for locations to try and stop said crimes.

He stops drug deals where the perpetrators are always armed and/or violent. I believe you will always see big white blocks in the back of the car where the deal is happening, so we're presumably not dealing with weed or whatever harmless like that.

The rest of the crimes he stops vary between burglaries, kidnappings, hostage situations, car chases (usually with gunfire), gangs shooting at the police, etc.

I don't know if the criminals have a high representation of black people/minorities, but I can't say I noticed anything? (outside of the Demon gang speaking Japanese, but we never even see their faces).

 

[Kyzer]

How much cocaine do I have to have on me to justify Spiderman punching my jaw off of my face

What's the threshold here

 

[Kyzer]

Mary Jane is a dumbass & Peter was right the whole time. Worst depiction of her.

Would have actually been better if she were some form of law enforcement (funny enough) as opposed to a reporter that constantly makes stupid, life-threatening choices.

Click to shrink...

Seriously, and then she's like "don't talk to me" and leaves you to feel guilty while she continues living her life without communicating, while Peter just goes in sadly playing along. He should get with black cat tbh

 

[TheGhost]

You want to smoke weed. Weed is illegal. Thus by buying weed you are breaking the law. Try to spin it as much as you want and to normalize weed, it still won't change the fact that it is illegal in many states. 'Complex real world issue' is you wanting to get high legally.

Click to shrink...

Actually cops were told not to arrest for marijuana smoking in the city recently.

 

[Kyzer]

You want to smoke weed. Weed is illegal. Thus by buying weed you are breaking the law. Try to spin it as much as you want and to normalize weed, it still won't change the fact that it is illegal in many states. 'Complex real world issue' is you wanting to get high legally.

Click to shrink...

Spiderman is that you

 

[TheGhost]

Which is kind of the point. Shit like that doesn't happen on every corner of New York on a 20 min interval. By having the only real depiction of the drug trade in the city being 20 dudes with military grade weaponry shooting up people it reinforces the narrative that places like fox news pedals by reducing a complex real world issue down to a complete caricature of reality for no other reason than gameplay convenience.

If games want to be treated as art they need to start acting like it. Don't include complex real world issues in your game if all you're going to do with it is "solve" it by having spiderman beat the shit out of dudes with machine guns, spout a pippy line, and pop off somewhere else to do it all over again. The drug trade isn't anywhere near that simple in reality, and if Spiderman doesn't want to catch flack for it's absurdly reductionist and thoughtless portrayl of it maybe they shouldn't have boiled down such a complex issue to dumb open world fluff.

Click to shrink...

You're playing a super hero game. In reality cocaine dealers got smarter with technology. In the 80's it was the wild west in NY.

The sheer minority of people who are given Spider-Man said flack is not a blip on general consumers radar.

It's a super hero game where the cops are always in over their head when dealing with over whelming volumes of lawlessness. It's Marvel's Manhattan not the one 20 minutes away from me.

Stop worrying about Fox News narratives, the people who watch Fox News already have their mind made up.

 

[Francesco]

Except when it's an old, webbed backpack from high school.

Click to shrink...

That is true indeed.

 

[Echelon079]

When young black kids have to be taught in schools how to interact with the police as to not be killed, I really really don't fucking care what percentage you pull out of thin air because that suggests a culture that is far too fucked up to say "Don't be hard on the cops..." And you're also assuming that those "bad apples" are dealt with promptly and appropriately, as if police unions don't go out of their way to protect those bad apples. Accountability fucking matter, and among police organizations, it does not exist.

Click to shrink...

If young black kids have to be taught in school that you fucking comply with police the thats because their parents arent fucking raising them right. Treat people how you want to be treated. Period .doesn't matter the fucking color. Doesn't matter about whether or not police should be trusted.

Does bias exist? Yeah it comes from somewhere though and as a reminder, more white people are hurt each year by police violence.

Police violence is the issue, and if you think that issue residues soley on the police than reread rerenfucking thread and think again .

P.S. it's a fucking video game. It's a super hero game. It's a Spiderman game. The video games as art bullshit in this case is fucking stupid.

Thank you again for.social.media giving everyone a "voice" and the ability to put their own shit on everything for fucks sake.

 

[internet rabbit]

Yeah man, Spider-Man used to swing by holding a boom box blasting F*ck the Police by N.W.A, and punch cops in the face before Sony forced him to play nice with cops.

Click to shrink...

That's enough.

 

[internet rabbit]

How is Spider-Man a cop. Please, elaborate.

Click to shrink...

That's also enough.

 

[SENPAIatLARGE]

That's enough.

Click to shrink...

Last time I checked, you weren't a mod, so you have no place telling me I can't discuss my options on on a discussiin forum

 

[BradGrenz]

That people are almost trying to position this as something that shouldn't even be discussed astonishes me. That a game can have overt allusions to Alex Jones and Donald Trump and even have an in-universe social media feed in which characters argue over politics but apparently should be immune from discussion about how Spider-Man spends a good portion of the game mending police surveillance towers is basically the definition of having a cake and eating it.

Click to shrink...

I would love it if we could have a discussion about what is actually in the game. Unfortunately the "Spider-man is a cop" critique is largely being promoted by people who have not, or have barely played the game, and who have built their entire argument around a series of demonstrably false premises. But people aren't good at being told they're wrong, especially when they aren't familiar enough with the work to actually verify their mistake, so many have dug their heels in rather than actually reflect on the counter evidence being presented.

For example, you describe Spider-man mending a network of "police surveillance towers". However, in the game the network is actually depicted as a communications network used to coordinate first responders. Spider-man uses his intrusion into the system to surreptitiously surveil the police dispatch activity, which may explain where the confusion comes from. But the fact remains this in no way depicts Spider-man as an ally of some surveillance state.

 

[Deleted member 1589]

Street level vigilante fiction is by its nature authoritarian and anti-crime. Every superhero that's focusing on cleaning up the streets is targeting the marginalised. Spider-Man, Batman, Daredevil, Moon Knight - they're all tools of The Man.

Click to shrink...

wat

 

[boontobias]

All I know is Peter should leave that awful woman Mary Jane and get with the chief lady.

 

[Deleted member 6949]

I just felt like it was on some simplistic cops and robbers bullshit that is a reflection of the 50 year old source material.