I'm already not a liberal, liberals are too pro-capitalist for me. I do vote Democrat though, for lack of a better option.
Could anything make you not liberal?
- Thread starter Thatonedice1
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Gotta disagree again, but that would involve another debate entirely. My problem with the idea of the ideaological revolution is that it will be a sudden shift, rather than a turn decades in the making. However, those turns are stifled by the inability to sift through the mountain of daily information in the modern world. Maybe fifty years ago a radicalization might have been possible, but it is no longer possible to supply people with a proper binary.
climate change is that shift. we are quickly reaching an inflection point where people will be forced to confront the reality that if the first world is to continue on as it has for the past hundred years, billions of people will have to be liquidated. with liberalism having been a large cause of this situation and obviously being totally incapable of providing a solution we will have fascists who are ready and willing to commit genocide opposed by people radicalized into real leftist politics.
and everyone you see here typing up apologia for imperialism and war will be on the fascist side.
No one is going to convince me that people shouldn't have rights and no one is going to convince me that the past 40 years of wage stagnation is good for society, so no. Nothing can make me not liberal.
I could go back to not identifying as a liberal/democrat like I did about 10 years or so ago, but I'd still be championing those causes regardless of how i want to carry a title.
I could go back to not identifying as a liberal/democrat like I did about 10 years or so ago, but I'd still be championing those causes regardless of how i want to carry a title.
Look, I have to be honest here. Liberalism has not been the cause of this. Economic liberalism? Yeah, sure. Liberal as the way the layman understands it? No, definitely not. However, there is another issue of what other choice is there even? Fascist authoritarianism the the base form of human morality, as sickening as that is. Every system eventually moves toward it. Fascism is easy, simple, and makes supporters feel "safe." I hate that, but it will be the victor in the end.
not according to how we define these terms in europe
social democrats and liberals agree on many issues, and often make for good allies, but there are differences too, especially regarding labour issues
Given the implication of the question - Fuck no, nothing could ever make me slide right and turn into a conservative monster.
Going right means giving up empathy, compassion, and reason. It means not giving a shit about the world or anyone else. You have to be a weak willed, pathetic piece of shit to think People of Color are less than you if you're white or that women are your subservient brood mares if you're a man. You have to be completely incapable of critical thinking and rational thought to bury your head in the sand and not care about climate change and the insane downward spiral that we're in. And you have to be a completely dumbass motherfucker to give up all power and rights to corporations and value them over people.
The Nazi-filled right is completely incompatible with who I am as a human being on a fundamental level. Republicans/Conservatives might as well be from an entirely different country and culture.
Going right means giving up empathy, compassion, and reason. It means not giving a shit about the world or anyone else. You have to be a weak willed, pathetic piece of shit to think People of Color are less than you if you're white or that women are your subservient brood mares if you're a man. You have to be completely incapable of critical thinking and rational thought to bury your head in the sand and not care about climate change and the insane downward spiral that we're in. And you have to be a completely dumbass motherfucker to give up all power and rights to corporations and value them over people.
The Nazi-filled right is completely incompatible with who I am as a human being on a fundamental level. Republicans/Conservatives might as well be from an entirely different country and culture.
i don't believe you can separate economic liberalism from any other definition of the word. it's all one piece.
No offense, but you do know that economics liberalism and social liberalism are two distinct things, right? Durkheim, Popper, and Dewey thought in completely different methods than Smith, Bentham, and Hayek.
How are the metrics for the climate and the environment?
What about poverty?
"Censoring" racism, sexualization of children, and anti-LGBTQ bigotry in children's movies and video games appears to be this trigger for quite a few people here on Era.
"You covered up the boobs in my video game so I'm voting for Trump."
An instructor of mine described the difference between left and right political philosophy as being equivalent to democracy and fascism, respectively. Both are acutely aware that they're threatened by overthrow from the masses, however democratic people believe that individuals can be socialized into rational actors by institutions like public education, thus ensuring the security of the system, while fascists simply see this as a waste of time and use primarily force, coercion, and hierarchical structure.
Maybe not everything about the democratic attitude will be easy to scale up effectively, but the fascist alternative is just so absurdly cynical. I also think it's basically been proven now that if you give most people the opportunity to help themselves and realize themselves, that they actually will. So no, I have difficulty imagining scenarios where I might turn conservative, unless I became so defeated that I lost all idealism.
Maybe not everything about the democratic attitude will be easy to scale up effectively, but the fascist alternative is just so absurdly cynical. I also think it's basically been proven now that if you give most people the opportunity to help themselves and realize themselves, that they actually will. So no, I have difficulty imagining scenarios where I might turn conservative, unless I became so defeated that I lost all idealism.
I'll always be progressive, because it just makes logical sense in terms of policy and how we treat each other, how business is run etc..
I'm not a liberal lol. I'm a socialist.
Though to answer your question, I'll never shift towards the Right.
Though to answer your question, I'll never shift towards the Right.
Same for me comrade.
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I consider myself a progressive rather than liberal.
Nothing would ever turn me towards being conservative. I'm soon 33 and I'm only becoming more open and more progressive.
To become more right leaning it would go against ALL of my personal beliefs, and would involve turning my back on my family and loved ones.
I'd rather be broke and destitute than ever become a fucking fascist. In fact, I'd rather die.
Nothing would ever turn me towards being conservative. I'm soon 33 and I'm only becoming more open and more progressive.
To become more right leaning it would go against ALL of my personal beliefs, and would involve turning my back on my family and loved ones.
I'd rather be broke and destitute than ever become a fucking fascist. In fact, I'd rather die.
For conservatives? Anyone who believes in LGBTQ rights, women's rights, and that institutional racism is a problem.
Believing in having humanity means you're just some softie librul.
I'm a socialist rather than a liberal, so the answer to your question is: the series of books and conversations that convinced me of socialism.
Do you make a lot of money? If not, you don't have much to worry about, or any increases would likely be offset by a rising tide for everyone.
I'm already not a liberal. I'd define myself as a socialist. What did it for me? Well, I was never a strong believer in capitalism. As a black American, capitalism is clearly not, nor was it ever, a meritocracy, and it isn't the most efficient system necessarily (without artificial scarcity, capitalism doesn't function in the modern Western world, lol). Obama's presidency pushed me over the edge. Using the language of progress to protect the status quo, being paid to try and compromise with, and ultimately lose against, the worst of the American right, it was a waste of such a charismatic political talent.
At this point the Democratic Party, for me, serves as the only available vehicle of progress towards eroding American capitalism. I'll vote for Dems where it makes sense and I'll vote independent where Dems don't advance us. I'll remain a registered Democrat like I have for almost 20 years until there's a better alternative.
At this point the Democratic Party, for me, serves as the only available vehicle of progress towards eroding American capitalism. I'll vote for Dems where it makes sense and I'll vote independent where Dems don't advance us. I'll remain a registered Democrat like I have for almost 20 years until there's a better alternative.
Conservatism is great for people with a huge pile of money. The thing that always amazes me is that the people who seem drawn to it are so often people without a huge pile of money, who conservatism works hard to prevent from ever getting a huge pile of money.
As I get older, I feel myself being driven further and further left. I'm more of a socialist leftist than a liberal at this point. I'm 38.
Evidence is the entire reason we're not flat earthers. With your "ignore evidence" approach there would be no way to distinguish flat earth beliefs from any other.
I'm assuming you're referring to Chile? It's doing well economically. Most Chileans seem to accept that Pinochet's actions improved the economy in the long run. The problem was the toppling of democracy and death squads, not "neoliberal economic policy", which has been enacted democractically in the vast majority of cases.
The metrics are poor. But that has little or nothing to do with neoliberalism. It has a lot to do with people voting for parties that are either unwilling or unable to fix things.
The metrics of non-neoliberal economies have been far worse, historically. The Soviets and pre-reform Chinese ran rampant environmentally, especially relative to the relatively small size of their economies.
Neoliberalism has done more to help poverty than any other system yet devised. The writer of the points you mention, Hickel, tacitly agrees with that. If you're interested in reading more, check this: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/2/12/18215534/bill-gates-global-poverty-chart
Neoliberalism is far from perfect. But I haven't seen a convincing alternative demonstrated.
I don't think anything will make me non-acceptant of ethnicities, genders or sexual orientations. It is a core value that people should be accepted for whoever they are. Vive le difference.
Could something make me skeptical of the merit of high taxes, socialized benefits? Sure, the level of taxes vs benefits should always be up for debate.
Or skeptical of the kind of social justice that involves people tribalistically shitting on one another? Yes. In fact it is for the reason in my first paragraph that I began to question the value of the kind of social justice that involves people hating on each other for not throwing up the right tribal symbols. Saying the right or wrong words. My core value of liberalism has eaten away at a kind of cheap tribal liberalism.
Could something make me skeptical of the merit of high taxes, socialized benefits? Sure, the level of taxes vs benefits should always be up for debate.
Or skeptical of the kind of social justice that involves people tribalistically shitting on one another? Yes. In fact it is for the reason in my first paragraph that I began to question the value of the kind of social justice that involves people hating on each other for not throwing up the right tribal symbols. Saying the right or wrong words. My core value of liberalism has eaten away at a kind of cheap tribal liberalism.
I'm curious about your definition of tribalism. Can you give an example of liberals tribalistically shitting on other groups of people who don't deserve to be shitted on?
Hell yeah!Liberals ?
Nope. But i'll tell you what they are though.
Oh yeah, economy is doing great if you take this quote from Parra "Hay dos panes. Usted se come dos. Yo ninguno. Consumo promedio: un pan por persona"
Also, I want to see your receipts on "most Chileans agree" thing.
In my view it's all around us in our age. The liberalism that shits on people for making the wrong jokes, having the wrong opinion about how much taxes vs benefits we should have, being the kind of bigot that is obsessed with trying to accuse other people of bigotry... I could go on really. It's been the story of this decade. Intolerance in the aim of promoting tolorance.
Liberalism is a generally good tendency. But like any tribe possessed of its own righteousness and trying to battle other groups in the name of ideology... it can get nasty.
I'd almost be curious to meet liberals who are so hunky dory that they don't see any of this nastiness. Do they see something I don't about the inherant righteousness of their side? Or do I see something they don't?