I'd love to Taliesin play an Oathbreaker Paladin. I feel like he could really sell it.
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Critical Role |OT| Is It Thursday Yet?
- Thread starter Dream Machine
- Start date
- Video/Streaming OT
Damn, didn't think he would take it that hard. Because honestly from a viewer perspective it never seemed like he invested himself heavily in the character.
I think charging into that fight was absolutely the right thing because it made sense for those characters. They are inexperienced, brash, and full of themselves. And someone was trying to take three of their friends into slavery and if they didn't act quickly they might never see them again. For Molly especially, I think he probably felt a protectorship role with Yasha to some degree, so he might have had the most reason.
And yeah, I can't really agree on bringing back Molly. Taliesin is obviously shook up about it; having to see and possibly fight someone else in his resurrected body would be all kinds of fucked up for him. But who knows, maybe Taliesin would agree to it. I don't think Matt would ever try to force Tal to roleplay whoever Molly was before though, especially as an antagonist to the party; it wouldn't make sense for a number of reasons. And just straight up bringing back Molly would make death meaningless, and we already got too much of that last campaign.
One thing that confused me then and still does is that Taliesin has played a lot of D&D, and yet he was insistent that Nott try to free people from the cages, even though they were in a situation where they were outnumbered and where opening a lock for each cage and untying them would take a glacially long time.
From a narrative stand point I feel like Molly is the perfect person to die out of the Mighty Nein. Of everyone in the group I feel like Molly was the most good, he only took what he needed when stealing, he was devoid of conscious secret keeping for the most part and it hurts the most to see the nicest go down.
I really hope Taliesin can keep the variation going hopefully. Molly was interesting in that he was everything Percy wasn't. Percy was always willing to do horrible things for the greater good, and willing to take those sins upon himself. Molly seemed to have a much more strict moral code, he's not above dirty work but he would never cross the lines Percy did.
I'd love if Taliesin's next character was absolutely capable of being horrible, but actively never saw themselves as such. Someone that is absolutely convinced of their own righteousness, like someone who could burn their parents alive like Caleb did but actually see it as the right thing to do.
Heck I'd flip out if somehow Taliesin's next character was a member of the Dwendalian Empire proper. Maybe someone who deals with the law and brings justice wherever and whenever asked.
What I'm saying is I want Taliesin to play Robocop.
I really hope Taliesin can keep the variation going hopefully. Molly was interesting in that he was everything Percy wasn't. Percy was always willing to do horrible things for the greater good, and willing to take those sins upon himself. Molly seemed to have a much more strict moral code, he's not above dirty work but he would never cross the lines Percy did.
I'd love if Taliesin's next character was absolutely capable of being horrible, but actively never saw themselves as such. Someone that is absolutely convinced of their own righteousness, like someone who could burn their parents alive like Caleb did but actually see it as the right thing to do.
Heck I'd flip out if somehow Taliesin's next character was a member of the Dwendalian Empire proper. Maybe someone who deals with the law and brings justice wherever and whenever asked.
What I'm saying is I want Taliesin to play Robocop.
Molly was his 'ready to go' replacement character from campaign 1. Ironically, in that campaign, he was totally ready to move on and left his character's fate up to his friends. He, weirdly, might be way more invested on a certain level in Molly.
And I agree that it was totally in character for them to throw themselves into that doomed fight, even though everything was telegraphing that they absolutely should not be.
Yeah, I'd really like to see Taliesin roll a character that's kind of a foil to the rest of The Mighty Nein in that sense. Then again, I imagine that it would be quite a task RP-wise to get a character like that on board with everyone else.
... But then again again, I could see The Mighty Nein making a more seedy ally with half the group missing. Desperate times and all. That would be pretty interesting.
You can watch either channel but G&S channel is the one broadcasting while the CR channel will be hosting it. The giveaways will be on CR's channel though and any future shows/games that aren't CR specifically but are done by them will be on the CR channel.
Some may complain and say *blah blah the show has no risks* but I would really love for that to happen.
I think he's invested in whatever story Matt was gonna come up with. He was ready leave with Percy cause the Briarwood arc was done. He only stuck around when he thought the Vex stuff was still worth pursuing. He made Molly a blank slate in part because he was such a fan of the Briarwood arc, and gave Matt a blank check this time to go wild.
And luckily there are still many ways they could still cover that ground in some way. Even if he's completely done, they still made contact with someone who knew him and who hangs out around a person they do work for.
All I know is, unless M9 find some higher-level help, it could take them several months or longer to get strong enough to take on Lorenzo with a good chance of winning. Which means Laura and Travis are probably going to be gone longer than most expected.
I didn't get to watch the episode until this afternoon, but I knew something was up seeing the thread on the front page all day. What an episode. God I hope the internet doesn't give Ashly shit for this. I'm okay with how everything played out, except I think Matt pulled back at the end when Lorenzo could've taken out Beau. Lorenzo though, what. a. badass. I love this guy.
I feel like, if the other three were in play, they could have done it.
But I look forward to what could be our first half-episode fight.
Yeah, I honestly feel the biggest mistake in the plan was Nott being essentially in the middle of the group of enemies. Of course having bad intel on the class composition didn't help matters either. But had the group focused on attacking from range and only engaging melee to melee, then they would have had a better shot.
So yeah, I don't think the encounter was too difficult a CR for the group necessarily but the plan had poor goal priorities and positioning. Combined with some bad rolls it was just all downhill.
So yeah, I don't think the encounter was too difficult a CR for the group necessarily but the plan had poor goal priorities and positioning. Combined with some bad rolls it was just all downhill.
I don't think that fight was winnable under the circumstances. They were without a healer, going in outnumbered, and operating on inaccurate info. The battle was over the second cone of cold was cast.
I gotta agree with SilentMike03, it was unwinnable. Lorenzo not only has powerful spells but also deadly melee skills with a long range. And then the barbarian who was about to clown Caleb. Bo could've tanked one of them for a bit, but they just didn't have enough muscle to protect the ranged/weak members of the party. Plus the lack of healing and revive skills, which I was sadly prescient enough to point out a couple minutes before Molly went down. I mean if Keg had tanked Lorenzo and Caleb had used Slow on him, maybe they could've lasted longer, maybe Molly wouldn't be dead. But that fight was 99% doomed from the start.
This is my first campaign watching. What are the chances that since Lorenzo's debut as a villain was better than expected, Matt may make him stronger in the future than originally planned?
So even though this first encounter was not winnable, it ends up being a proto-version that is not as tough as the one they will ultimately have to defeat.
So even though this first encounter was not winnable, it ends up being a proto-version that is not as tough as the one they will ultimately have to defeat.
It could happen NPCs don't just sit around and twiddle their thumbs in Matts world he has made it clear during some key parts of the previous campaign with certain *villains* that they improve and evolve as much as the main cast do, even one time where he outright admitted if they didn't stop "him/her" they would have came back with a vengeance and better prepared themselves. One reason I love the way Matthew DMs he makes sure almost every element in his story flows so well and each character has their own character growth regardless of how insignificant they may seem at the time.
I really don't see it. If they block the path just as they did, but attack from the front at long range, keeping their melee in cover at a distance until the enemies closed in to engage at melee, I think they have a much better chance. A whole lot of why things went as badly as they did was because the each person got into trouble quickly, with little option for escape because they charged right into the midst of the enemy. Keep in mind that they got almost zero offensive damage off in that fight. And if Lorenzo is at a distance and Keg, instead of being 20~ft from him was twice that or more and fighting literally anyone else, she's more likely to get some damage in as well. And when they take hits, they're in much better positions to potion themselves or each other fighting afield rather than in the midst of horses and wagons and enemies that make movement almost guaranteed to induce AoO. Lorenzo also would have to either pare his spells down to single target or damage his own fighters to at M9, which is still better than what happened.
I mean all of this is, of course, Monday Morning Quarterback. It's entirely possible they still lose that fight, only differently. I just feel like had they engaged at range and been less spread apart from supporting each other they would've had a solid chance. I really don't feel like that fight was completely unwinnable.
If they fight him again at 5, he'll be 5. If it's 6, he'll be 6.
The only reason the fight was so one-sided was:
1) It was uneven in number of bad guys.
2) It was fixed in the sense that Keg was obviously created as a Red Herring, and Matt was not going to let this be the end of the slaver plot. Even if they won, it would end up being the wrong group or something. If they killed Lorenzo, he'd end up having a boss.
3) The group had no healers or tanks.
4) This was obviously meant to be a Long Fight and it was nearing 4 hours and 30 minutes already.
5) Matt needed to keep the stakes from last episode raised.
And honestly? This was all improv, but in the narrative, it worked almost too well. The writers for Critical Role had a job to do, which was to make the Post-Hiatus Episode great, and they knocked it out of the park. Every beat was perfect.
Yeah I am excited. No punches pulled, fun storylines to come of this. Probably the best shot in the arm the show needed.
Yeah it was written all over the wall that it was a bad idea. Keg wasn't super excited at the idea of attacking them. And clearly even with wanting her vengeance it was to much for her. She has seen some shit to react like that during the battle.
When Matt explained that usually they go to their base, unload the marchandise and go celebrate for the night, I thought "Hey listen to that! It's when you want to sneak in and rescue them!" (well I was in fact screaming it at my screen).
When they realize the combat was a mistake it was too late. You can see on Taelsin face after Lorenzo spell that he know they're fucked.
The action I really don't understand is Nott trying to unlock a cage again and again. Matt said to them before the fight that people in cages are restrained, he said it when he described the man in the cage Nott was in front of, and after he said that people in this cart were frozen. Even with Nott panicking it felts weird to me.
I'm really curious to see how players will integrate this event in how they play their characters. That's a great moment for character growth, in a wrong or good direction.
I'm not sure they'll be more cautious. We are 26 episodes in of the second campaign, and this group of players mostly never planed their action. I don't think they'll change that. But there'll definitely be a trauma.
Maybe they can use their connexion to the Gentleman to get some help. Especially with their mission linked to a family rival to the one for which the slavers group is working.
By they way, didn't Molly had a magic necklace or something like that which brings him back to one hit point if he falls to zero? It might not have change his fate but it wouldn't have been automatic fail to saving throw for both attack.
They'll be in a pretty shitty state in next episode, and the burying of Molly will be super emotional. So is it Thursday yet?
When Matt explained that usually they go to their base, unload the marchandise and go celebrate for the night, I thought "Hey listen to that! It's when you want to sneak in and rescue them!" (well I was in fact screaming it at my screen).
When they realize the combat was a mistake it was too late. You can see on Taelsin face after Lorenzo spell that he know they're fucked.
The action I really don't understand is Nott trying to unlock a cage again and again. Matt said to them before the fight that people in cages are restrained, he said it when he described the man in the cage Nott was in front of, and after he said that people in this cart were frozen. Even with Nott panicking it felts weird to me.
I'm really curious to see how players will integrate this event in how they play their characters. That's a great moment for character growth, in a wrong or good direction.
I'm not sure they'll be more cautious. We are 26 episodes in of the second campaign, and this group of players mostly never planed their action. I don't think they'll change that. But there'll definitely be a trauma.
Maybe they can use their connexion to the Gentleman to get some help. Especially with their mission linked to a family rival to the one for which the slavers group is working.
By they way, didn't Molly had a magic necklace or something like that which brings him back to one hit point if he falls to zero? It might not have change his fate but it wouldn't have been automatic fail to saving throw for both attack.
They'll be in a pretty shitty state in next episode, and the burying of Molly will be super emotional. So is it Thursday yet?
I'm not certain the rules of when that necklace would activate (sometimes it's something like on your next turn instead of a death throw you stabilize) but either way hits on a downed opponent auto crit for 2 failed death throws. Molly was doomed the moment the Blood Maledict dropped him.
Oh yeah that's right, its two automatic failures. It wouldn't have change anything.
And I totaly understand him not using Twitter for a while. Losing your character is already bad, you think of things you should have done differently and all. But having a lot of people tweeting at you about what they think you did wrong, that must be super depressing and exasperating.
And also fuck people attacking Ashly!
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Man, I don't want to seem callous but I think they have to accept they are not going to be able to save Fjord, Jester, and Yasha anytime soon. I think their best chance was to get to the fantasy Deadwood first and ally with the Gentleman's target. I think Keg had said she was on the opposite side of the Shepard's employers.
Now I don't see any safe way to even get into the town. Keg is well known, and while Nott and Caleb can use disguise self, Beau is going to stand out. I just don't see any way to get in that doesn't end in an ambush.
I honestly think their best option is to go to that city where the kids were being abducted from. At least there they can buy a disguise for Beau and see about making an alliance with the authorities there. The only problem is, that they lose their friends. I am kind of hoping that Beau will be able to get everyone to think about their own self preservation. i don't want to lose another character anytime soon.
Now I don't see any safe way to even get into the town. Keg is well known, and while Nott and Caleb can use disguise self, Beau is going to stand out. I just don't see any way to get in that doesn't end in an ambush.
I honestly think their best option is to go to that city where the kids were being abducted from. At least there they can buy a disguise for Beau and see about making an alliance with the authorities there. The only problem is, that they lose their friends. I am kind of hoping that Beau will be able to get everyone to think about their own self preservation. i don't want to lose another character anytime soon.
I could see them doing some sort of prison break thing for Yasha, Fjord, and Jester if things are taking too long, and the others can't rescue them.
You mean like an episode about them breaking themselves out? That would be awesome. I'm mostly expecting them to sold out and scattered, so that if only either Travis or Laura become available at any point the party can find just their character.
A jailbreak with them being on the run though would be a super fun story though.
Yeah like that, either one or two who escape and eventually find their friends with info at hand on how the rescue the others, or they escape as a group either by themselves or with the aid of other captives.
Only that have them come back to save the other prisoners who couldn't escape to have been executed setting up a final battle with the survivors of the Mighty Nein and the Iron Shepards.
Did we ever find out what the slaves are even intended for? Is it just labor, and if so for who? I know the Empire is kind of terrible, but I don't remember any mention of slaves in Zedash, just the occasional servant. We know this group of slavers have been working for a while, but I'm very curious about the scope of this organization. Are the slaves only sold in the criminal city, or throughout the empire? It is a very morbid topic, but I'm really curious how large an operation this is.
I haven't really had a chance to play a real D&D game yet, but I've played enough board games with family to know that stopping the game to argue about rules is just the worst. I think that's why I enjoy this show so much, while things do get bogged down from time to time, it never seems to get too heated or annoying. The players seem to respect Matt's rulings when he makes them, and go on with the show.
The Crit Role chat is populated by the most fucking stupid people on the planet.
10% actual human beings, 90% toxic waste.
You should see it anytime Sam makes a slam on politics or political situations. You should see it whenever Liam or Tali-Son wear a shirt about diversity. Or whenever Marisha breathes. It got so bad a few weeks ago, that they even had to spend half of Talks Machina discussing it.
Besides all of the actual hateposts, you then have backseat gamers. These assholes think it is their job to regulate how other people play a fucking game. It absolutely blows my fucking mind. Sometimes, they'll even post the same message three or four times as if that will make the cast or even Matt do something. None of the people on Crit Role are stupid. I have no idea in the world why anyone would actually attribute intelligence to how a bunch of people play other people.
Don't even get me started on people fucking following the cast to Twitter to harass them there.
And I really do not want to think about the Real Life bullshit that they must have to go through. I'm 100% sure that Matt Mercer has to have some sort of security set-up at his house.
Man stuff like this is just the worst. I am so glad I discovered this show over the last year, but part of me is really glad I haven't really dived into the fandom yet. Part of the fun with this show for me is seeing how much human error and rng impacts the narrative. I'm so used to seeing stories that treat themselves like intricate watches, where every detail is tightly scripted and placed. Here, there are plenty of well crafted details, but things can spiral at any moment. The hospital heist from earlier this campaign is a perfect example. The fact that things can go as bad as they did last night is wonderful.
Hell Keg giving herself disadvantage last night was the most interesting thing about the character. Combined with what little we know about her and her past, it paints a very dark and captivating picture. It helped elevate a generic slaver villain, into a larger than life terror. Molly knocking himself out, just makes his death more tragic. I hope the fandom can just chill and not go too crazy over the next few episodes.
I used to be all "yeah, but you can ignore that shit" when people would explain why they're not guesting on Critical Role.
Now I completely understand. It is 100% a valid concern. It's a mental health issue. Comment Fatigue is very, very real.
It wasn't Sam's fault on that. Taliesin kept insisting during the planning phase that the best strategy was to free as many of the slaves as possible so they could fight. As I said before, I don't know why a guy with as much D&D experience as Taliesin would think Nott could open those cages in any reasonable amount of time. It was a dumb choice, but Nott just followed orders.
Yeah, they are pretty much persona non grata in that town considering they just attacked the biggest mafia group there. I'm not sure they can even complete the Gentleman's mission now, so they could be in hot water with him too.
I've been assuming Yasha would escape on her own since Ashley will probably only be busy for a few weeks. That would give the party more muscle during the rematch and maybe a lead to go on in terms of finding Fjord and Jester. But it could really go in any direction at this point.
Yeah there's a portion of the fanbase that's going to freak out anytime the players aren't min-maxing or playing "optimally". It's really annoying. With as long as the show has been going, you'd assume those people would figure out that the crew don't play like that. The scene with Ashly giving herself disadvantage was great, especially given what we've seen of Lorenzo now. It reminded me of Sam sitting out the fight with the fishmen because Nott was afraid of water.
Only caught up today, I just saw quickly peaking when it was live that Ashley was the guest and I already knew that it was going to be grat ,but holy hell didn't I expect this !
Game logic would be a character with some healing capabilities, but we all know that they don't necessarily take that route, and if Taliesin does, he's most likely to find the weirdest class that can do that an play it.
Same here, with a DM like Matt, an event like this and all the parts of molly's backstory that are still hidden from us I'm sure there is a whole story-arc that could be built around it for the party.
The fact that half the party is missing is equally interesting with how the dynamic between all of them could shift either way around this event.
I must say I felt like the last few episodes were becoming a bit boring without nothing significant happening, now with what happened at the end of the last episode (because reasons :p), the new villain introduced, the stakes raised by Molly's death, and the non-completed Gentleman task in the background along with the possible consequences of the abduction for the adbuctees, this is back to being very tasty !
Game logic would be a character with some healing capabilities, but we all know that they don't necessarily take that route, and if Taliesin does, he's most likely to find the weirdest class that can do that an play it.
Same here, with a DM like Matt, an event like this and all the parts of molly's backstory that are still hidden from us I'm sure there is a whole story-arc that could be built around it for the party.
The fact that half the party is missing is equally interesting with how the dynamic between all of them could shift either way around this event.
I must say I felt like the last few episodes were becoming a bit boring without nothing significant happening, now with what happened at the end of the last episode (because reasons :p), the new villain introduced, the stakes raised by Molly's death, and the non-completed Gentleman task in the background along with the possible consequences of the abduction for the adbuctees, this is back to being very tasty !
I liked Molly's personality but Bloodhunter just didn't fit and it make him largely a useless character.
Taliesin should go bard next character, it's what Molly should have been anyways
Taliesin should go bard next character, it's what Molly should have been anyways
Ah well, silly but great episode really. Both the episode fights were unnecessary.
The abandoned farmhouse screamed 'bait', and when you hear/feel things burrowing then just bail out of there fast (I lost too many fights to the ankhegs in baldurs gate to try that again).
The ambush on the slavers also had nowhere near enough detail or recon in the planning, and they'd already heard that they spend the first night after returning home drinking and carousing.
I appreciate that means friends in chains a bit longer, but the party can stealth pretty well, and a straight up fight was lost when they saw it was 5 vs 7, and that assumed that their new 'friend' would not buckle when she saw her ex slave-mates up close. Keg (who I did like) was either not tough enough and got kicked, or she did something to offend Lorenzo. Either way, she couldn't face him. Ah well, Molly's not really that much of a loss, and it did make an enjoyable car crash session to watch, and was pretty much how I'd previously expected the Kraken fight to end up in C1.
It'll either forge them into a better co-ordinated unit, or people (Caled and Nott) will be walking next sess.
Beau could end up haunted by Molly if he plays Matt's 'lingering soul' class next.
The abandoned farmhouse screamed 'bait', and when you hear/feel things burrowing then just bail out of there fast (I lost too many fights to the ankhegs in baldurs gate to try that again).
The ambush on the slavers also had nowhere near enough detail or recon in the planning, and they'd already heard that they spend the first night after returning home drinking and carousing.
I appreciate that means friends in chains a bit longer, but the party can stealth pretty well, and a straight up fight was lost when they saw it was 5 vs 7, and that assumed that their new 'friend' would not buckle when she saw her ex slave-mates up close. Keg (who I did like) was either not tough enough and got kicked, or she did something to offend Lorenzo. Either way, she couldn't face him. Ah well, Molly's not really that much of a loss, and it did make an enjoyable car crash session to watch, and was pretty much how I'd previously expected the Kraken fight to end up in C1.
It'll either forge them into a better co-ordinated unit, or people (Caled and Nott) will be walking next sess.
Beau could end up haunted by Molly if he plays Matt's 'lingering soul' class next.
When I play I do bring up the rules when it goes mechanically against why I chose to play a particular archetype. I usually do a fair amount of research and have the sage advice or some other pg number on hand to provide the DM so it doesn't bog it down. Nothing worse than feeling punished for choosing a way to play something and not being able to do so. I also always caveat that at the end of the day it is the DMs ruling and try to have the situation resolved in a minute or under. I don't think I have had a situation where I have had to discuss with the DM after the fact because it is usually resolved very quickly (agreeing with the sage ruling or simply agreeing with the DM that we will play it differently). Hell, I play a paladin in a game with the Shield Master feat and found an old sage ruling that stated it was done in such a way that made it a good feat. We played off of that for nearly a year. However I found a new ruling they did that significantly nerfed it and I brought it to my DMs attention because I knew he would want to know. So it isn't like I am doing it either for powergaming, just an internal consistency to how the game is played. I have also done like Ashly given myself disadvantage or some other penalty for RP reasons. I have even taken lower scores after rolling really well for a character flaw.
It bothers me time to time when I hear a ruling mistake in the show(which honestly are pretty few and far between as of late with I think the last time it bothered me was Travis not knowing that Armor of Agathys is way more powerful than how he played it) but I would never tweet at them or throw the weird vitriol some of the gatekeepers in the community throw at them. Hell I wouldn't even tweet at them politely reminding them, because at the end of the day who am I to tell them that, I am not in their game.
Just trying to say I think there is a time and a place for it, but it should be handled by the players themselves and can be handled respectively and not like this
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It seems a lot of nerds still don't understand that they treat it as improvised theater with dice rather jam a video game to beat which is why players like Ashly first consider the RP ramifications of the situation on their character rather than making optimum combat choices. So yeah I don't think any suggestions of how they should have fought it really mean anything because, man, the bungling of this fight has upped this whole story to the next level.
Of course when Lorenzo pulled out of the fifth level cone of cold it was time to run. Caleb doesn't even get a fifth level spell slot until level 9 so they were outnumbered and outleveled by a large margin. Still the characters don't know that so I think they RPed it quite well. Can't wait to see how this plays out over the weeks. Great episode, I was hooked.
Of course when Lorenzo pulled out of the fifth level cone of cold it was time to run. Caleb doesn't even get a fifth level spell slot until level 9 so they were outnumbered and outleveled by a large margin. Still the characters don't know that so I think they RPed it quite well. Can't wait to see how this plays out over the weeks. Great episode, I was hooked.
They play it like I like to play, so I enjoy watching it. The characters and their motives before the roll of a dice.
Cone of Cold is a nasty spell and I would have shat myself if that got dropped on a party at level 5 that I was in. The fact that Tal was resistant to cold and that Sam was able to do dodge pretty much prevented a total TPK.
To be fair, last campaign some of the CR cast kind of played it as a video game. Liam and Marisha were constantly trying to min-max and rules lawyer with Matt. So I don't think some of the audience has quite understood (or want) the tonal shift with the new party. Liam still tries to get the rules on his side, but it's way way less than the Vax days. He's 100% focused on RP now, along with Sam. I think that's pulled the rest of the cast in that direction as well.