Pretty sure even indie devs have no choice but to crunch themselves, it's a thing that happens in the game industry and most entertainment industry's I would assume as time is money and you just want to get the final product delivered
#CrunchNoMore I will not buy Last of Us 2. Join me
- Thread starter RexNovis
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I plan on not buying it either and I think hurting their bottom line is the only way to break through to publishers.
Sakurai is freelancer who Nintendo hires. He doesn't work directly for Nintendo and never has, he came from HAL an independent studio. Sakurai does stuff like that to himself. And the only other employees under him is his wife, since Namco is a contractor for Smash 4 and Ultimate.
Sorry while I think no one should have to deal with crunch boycotting games will only hurt the people working on them This should be a union issue and they should be the ones to step in when things get to bad. Instead of boycotting people should push for everyone working in games to unionize but for some reason Americans seems to detest unions but I could be wrong.
Not going to boycott ND. But I was never planning to buy the game at launch. The whole emotional zombie apocalypse thing is a been-there-done-that for me.
Te problem with this sort of action is it effecrs the lowest denominators the most. A decline in sales or poor performance for a product regardless of work practices means staff may be let go or people made redundant or out of work. By purchasing a product your keeping peoples livelhoods intact. The problem is a work industry practice one whereby putting in stricter rules on labour hours and working arrangements.
Not at all. Won't even register. The 10 people that will actually boycott this won't be remotely felt.
There's far better ways to do this than to "stick it to the man" like this.
Wait, I'm aware the goal is to protest and end work crunch times resulting in unfair work practices. Wouldn't this also mean that all the extra work and time people put into development of this game would be in vain if no one buys?
Can not buying it really be the solution?
I'm all for it if it's the answer but I dont see how choosing not to buy the game will help any unless a ton of people really dont buy and word gets up there as to why.
Can not buying it really be the solution?
I'm all for it if it's the answer but I dont see how choosing not to buy the game will help any unless a ton of people really dont buy and word gets up there as to why.
I don't think boycotts like this are effective. All they potentially do is punish employees who crunched that were counting on sales performance based bonuses. Cultural changes at a studio have to be self directed. Employees have to organize and agitate for a change themselves. Consumer pressure is never going to be the answer.
I fully understand what you are saying and it is valuable. The problem is that I don't think (obviously it's my opinion) that it changes anything. The only way you can change it without relying on a company's good faith or bad faith is if the policy intercedes. That the politicians are corrupt and that they are managed by the lobby of large corporations is absolutely real. But this is where the attention has to be focused. Demand better politicians, and that they make a positive change in the laws in favor of the worker. Do you know why this doesn't happen? Because the day this happens, most corporations will move to another country with the same job flexibility. And in that case, the State would lose a large amount of resources generated by these companies, and politicians care too much about money to think about the life of a simple worker ...
See. I don't understand this mentality at all. What's the point of protesting if you'll just half-ass it by buying used? That doesn't send a message at all.
There was an ex-AAA developer in this thread who said financial boycotts will not work because publishers will not interpret it as "Okay, we messed up, time to do better next time" but as "Okay, the devs messed up, they won't be getting their bonus, that'll teach them to do the same thing but better next time".
I'm parapharsing because I'm on mobile and didn't save the post, but I'm inclined to believe that any action in which we the consumer withhold money from publishers is not a path to improving working conditions because publishers are (and this one is a direct quote) "fucking insane". And in the event of a game releasing failing to meet expectations, publishers will invariably be in a better position to protect themselves compared to developers.
And it's disheartening because I used to engage in boycotts and speaking out, but I now learn one of those wasn't working and so participating in these threads and conversing with my friends becomes my only path, but it doesn't feel like it's enough.
Sony doesn't get a penny but they still get to enjoy a game people nearly killed themselves over?.. sorry I mean enjoy a really good game.
Doesn't add up to me either. Boycotting or half arsed attempts at boycotts, arent going to move the needle. If people want to do something about this, we'll need to create a far greater, more meaningful noise across the whole industry and not just one game from one developer where the affect will be none existent.
Hell even the argument that buying used = lost sale doesn't hold up.
Player A gets TLOU2, decides to sell for whatever reason.
Player B decides to stick it to Sony by buying TLOU2 used.
Sony's POV: they just replaced the sale of Player A with Player B. Player A's money is now Player B's money. So what exactly did they lose?
Ergo, people are being incredibly stupid whenever they suggest a boycott and then openly admit that they will buy used. Like what a way to undermine both your position, as well as come off as a crack addict who can't maintain a shred of integrity just because you wanted the next hit.
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Thanks for sharing. Yeah, basically what i said in the other thread: HIGHER UPS WILL BLAME THE GAME BOMBED BECAUSE "IT WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH" AND NOT BECAUSE "PEOPLE ARE PUNISHING OUR BAD LABORAL ENVIRONMENT"
Not buying the game will just hurt the workers. The head studios and the higher ups will get paid anyway, and just the workers will suffer.
The only way to make a change is getting vocal to this comes to the higher ups is making this news comes to more massive publications, not only gaming-related publications.
Make this news reach forbes (non-contributors articles), time... i dont know... you understand the point.
Pressure your favorite game journalists when interview live your favorite higher ups of Sony, EA, Take2... etc, asking him live "why you crunch your employees to the point some of them have to be hospitalized?" instead of just asking them "hey Peter Moore, do you have a new awesome tattoo of your awesome new game?"
Making this news breaking the gaming-bubble and reach the casual audience will have better results than just try to boycott.
It's just another player adding to those engagement numbers. X million players, x number of bullets shot. And you can bet your bottom dollar, if the game is super good, it'll all be forgotten about.
We've got to try harder than a boycott to fix things if we truly cared. But that takes a lot more effort than a "I'm not buying said game, that'll teach em" so things will continue as they are and never change with motions like this. I get the cause but not the solution here.
A messy issue indeed. I am against Naughty Dog's crunch culture, but this game is like, what, the first major AAA game to have a gay protagonist? And with an actual kiss onscreen? Naughty Dog's doing a lot of things wrong, but they're also doing many things right. I know this game will sell gangbusters regardless of this boycott, so I don't know what the most effective way to make our voices heard would be. For the time being, we should contact them directly via social media & other means. I know they listen and respond to feedback from their fans.
Voting with your wallet does nothing if there isn't a message to go along with it. There are any number of reasons people could have in not buying a game. Waiting for a price drop, timing, hell, even the Coronavirus is going to affect sales for the audience that doesn't feel okay about going digital. The vagueness of not buying a thing gives them open-ended excuses for why something (even as guaranteed a success as TLOU2) didn't sell as well a
But directly messaging ND, stating you are holding off on buying the game unless they take positive actions to correcting their studio culture, that atleast instills some measure of responsibility that they can respond to.
This thread exactly serves that purpose. Developers in the industry are part of the forums and other are probably reading too.
Just making it clear. Message them on Twitter etc. where they can quantify the negative reaction vs. an easily ignorable Era thread.
Twitter accounts probably get bombarded with disrespectful and vulgar messages by petty fanboys because the world can't see them. Just recently Jason Schreier tweeted about platform fanboys sending hateful messages to him over one of his tweets. This is out in the open and in a relatively more civilized manner.
You can be civilized on Twitter, even when many choose not to. I'm not saying harass their employees, but put your messaging where they have to see it.
I'm just gonna buy it used or borrow it from one of my friends. Not sure I wanna support this. I'm no longer a child who can blissfully ignore stuff like this when the evidence is there and ND is not responding to comment. Unless they can come forward and prove this is all false
what message are you sending that you don't want to support it, and yet, you're okay with lending or buying it second-hand? All because you can't deal with not having to play it.
A misguided one. That's for sure.
I'm happy and fine with my decision. And it's better than ND getting my money for their practices. The game was always a day one for me but I can wait now if they aren't gonna confront the issue
I wasn't planning on getting it day one anyway but I might as well just join this movement. No need to buy it at all.
Is this thread-marked? It should be thread-marked. If you're not helping the developer, and potentially harming them, there's zero purpose to these.
ScatheZombie would you say that companies would respond to hearing directly from customers on this, say via email, telephone, social media etc? Not in a "I'm gonna boycott you" way but "As a customer and fan, I would like to add my voice to calls to try to eliminate or reduce crunch as much as possible for your devs sake"
I can never find myself to boycott games for things like this. That being said I won't be getting TLOU II anyway, it looks like the same old unfun ND gameplay.
Already preordered and trying to get a PSN preorder cancel is harder than getting my boss drunk and sweet talking him into a raise.
Great post by ScatheZombie.
While the argument can be made that I'm perpetuating this behavior by buying the game, I think a more effective approach is to continue the discussion about crunch and poor working conditions to help change these things going forward, while trying to get more media outlets to pick up stories like this, since it's not just a problem unique to games. If nobody buys the game, the studio goes under, and everyone scatters and go to other companies, that doesn't solve the problem; it simply defers it.
And yet, my memories of my own similar experiences aren't negative. 20+ years ago, I worked at a game developer/publisher where we regularly did 100+ hour work weeks heading towards our gold/RC dates. I wasn't hourly, and did it because they requested it of me and I believed in the quality of the product and also the effort that the rest of the team was putting in. They often refer to it as being "in the trenches" because it does feel like war at times. You're fatigued, you have no sense of day/time, a normal social life isn't there, and you're "dodging bullets" from upper management. But you feel the camaraderie. Pay be damned, it was some of the best experiences of my life, and I still owe a lot to it for pointing me in the right direction going forward career-wise. The games I worked on are also often cited as the best-in-class from that era, so I feel like the extra time we put in shows in the finished products.
I will also say that I could never do it at my age now (mid-40s). I'm married, but don't have kids, and place a premium on a healthy work/life balance.
While the argument can be made that I'm perpetuating this behavior by buying the game, I think a more effective approach is to continue the discussion about crunch and poor working conditions to help change these things going forward, while trying to get more media outlets to pick up stories like this, since it's not just a problem unique to games. If nobody buys the game, the studio goes under, and everyone scatters and go to other companies, that doesn't solve the problem; it simply defers it.
And yet, my memories of my own similar experiences aren't negative. 20+ years ago, I worked at a game developer/publisher where we regularly did 100+ hour work weeks heading towards our gold/RC dates. I wasn't hourly, and did it because they requested it of me and I believed in the quality of the product and also the effort that the rest of the team was putting in. They often refer to it as being "in the trenches" because it does feel like war at times. You're fatigued, you have no sense of day/time, a normal social life isn't there, and you're "dodging bullets" from upper management. But you feel the camaraderie. Pay be damned, it was some of the best experiences of my life, and I still owe a lot to it for pointing me in the right direction going forward career-wise. The games I worked on are also often cited as the best-in-class from that era, so I feel like the extra time we put in shows in the finished products.
I will also say that I could never do it at my age now (mid-40s). I'm married, but don't have kids, and place a premium on a healthy work/life balance.
In all honesty I think I'm more likely to just boycott consoles all together due to the fact that they essentially support a modern day slave trade. Fuck all these companies if they won't take a stance on that.
Not buying it in the first place because I don't own a PS4. I don't think boycotting it tells them it sold badly because of crunch. The industry is aware of crunch and its toll on people, it simply doesn't care. You want to work in the business you pay your dues. It's a terrible philosophy but it's the way things are.
On top of that we live in a "I got mine!" Culture. Look at the stickied thread about slave labor. Are we still going to buy new consoles because we want them that bad? What if MS didn't go through those channels to procure their consoles and Sony did? Would everyone switch to Xbox?
I am not buying it, but that's due more to lack of interest than principle. I'm not saying it shouldn't be boycotted mostly just frustrated with the state of things where everyone knows it's horrible but so few in the industry seem willing to do anything about it. Good luck though.
On top of that we live in a "I got mine!" Culture. Look at the stickied thread about slave labor. Are we still going to buy new consoles because we want them that bad? What if MS didn't go through those channels to procure their consoles and Sony did? Would everyone switch to Xbox?
I am not buying it, but that's due more to lack of interest than principle. I'm not saying it shouldn't be boycotted mostly just frustrated with the state of things where everyone knows it's horrible but so few in the industry seem willing to do anything about it. Good luck though.
I will buy the game to support the devs who made it. Crunch is bad, there needs to be regulation in the industry, there needs to be protection for devs. But.. not buying the game... in the end will lead to devs being fired. I don't want that.