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Cyberpunk 2077 Dev Team Will Work Extra Long Hours After Latest Delay
- Thread starter Deleted member 59955
- Start date
The one person to work in a place that doesn't have to work tons of overtime occasionally.
They should slap a sticker on the cover indicating how many human lives they had to ruin to release the game.
Considering the subject matter, that would be meta as heck.
Considering the subject matter, that would be meta as heck.
Pushing to deliver on time for what would be the perfect release date from their point of view, and then realizing they couldn't achieve Gold by then. Again, as much as this isn't an exact science, it's still bad planning.
CD Projekt just shot themselves in the foot.
I don't know how much the rest of you know about Polish culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an asshole. If you screw someone over in Poland, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.
What this means is the gaming public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase Cyberpunk 2077 for either consoles or PC, nor will they purchase any of CD Projekt's games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but CD Projekt has alienated an entire market with this move.
CD Projekt, publicly apologize and cancel the delay or you can kiss your business goodbye.
I don't know how much the rest of you know about Polish culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an asshole. If you screw someone over in Poland, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.
What this means is the gaming public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase Cyberpunk 2077 for either consoles or PC, nor will they purchase any of CD Projekt's games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but CD Projekt has alienated an entire market with this move.
CD Projekt, publicly apologize and cancel the delay or you can kiss your business goodbye.
I made a topic regarding this very issue yesterday:
It's covered in the op.
It's covered in the op.
Oh course they aren't forced to. They are given *stomp* the opportunity to *stomp* not work *stomp* the overtime *stomp* if they don't *stomp* want to but *stomp* it is encouraged.
this is the rallying cry of the hypocritical gamer. We can officially retire that pic of the BOYCOTT MODERN WARFARE 2 steam pic. This post is gamer perfection. Wow. Kudos to you. Unless you're serious.
I never understand the outcry against "crunch time" from gamers (at least gamers on this forum and other social media outlets). These are paid professionals who know what they are getting into from the start. There are so many industries where this happens (I am in one of them - public accounting, and we work 80 hours a week no problem during certain months of the year). That is the nature of the job for many, and they are compensated with a good salary and benefits. It does suck, believe me. But why do so many of you get upset about this? Are you upset that people on Wall Street work 90+ hours a week? I'm talking the entry-level analysts who don't get the BIG bucks. Does that upset you too? What about people who make movies and TV shows who work insane hours? This isn't unusual and while that doesn't make it right, it's the reality of the situation and everyone who does research before entering a job/career should know what they are getting into. This is their career choice and they can leave for another development-type job if they want to. Or a different career if the job is impacting their health. I just don't get why so many people get upset about this.
Because we want people to be able to work in their preferred jobs and still have a good work/life balance throughout the year. Who could imagine people wanting a better world? Of course the other industries are upsetting as well. This thread is about a specific company in the gaming industry though.
The reality of the situation can be changed, and sometimes it takes being vocal about the wrongs being done.
I don't think anyone is saying that crunch is only bad in the videogame industry. But like, this is a videogame forum, and we are consumers of videogame products. And I care about the quality of the workplace for my fellow industry professionals. We also have a lower average salary and a lot less stable job security than other tech jobs. It's a volatile industry that runs off of passion and burnout. Not only does this suck for the workers (in more ways than just having no personal life -- think career ambitions when you are stuck in one position for a year working 80 hours a week only for your contract to be terminated once the game ships) but it really handicaps the industry in the long run, as incredible talent leaves for more lucrative professions with less crunch.
You don't have to understand the outcry, but you'd do well to understand why the outcry exists.
Working extra hours isn't enough to say it's abuse or mistreatment. This is just the nature of working on a large software product.
It's not something that's encouraged in any tech industry as it's usually the result of bad management/planning. (unless encouraged by sociopathic managers who are very cheap)
In the long term, it leads to employee burnout.
Fucking sucks.
This is one of those reasons that, as a developer, you have a love hate relationship with delays. While crunching for a release date is horrible, sometimes just knowing that there's a ship date gives you some relief... LEt's you draw a line in the sand and say, "What we have at this date will be considered 'finished.'"
I'm not buying Cyberpunk at launch, not really because of this attitude around game development, but I'll pretend that I'm taking an ethical stand against crunch and needing to ship something for an arbitrary deadline that prioritizes season release time over the lives of the people building the product.
It's really not the nature of working on a large software product. I work on a large software project that has millions of customers, in 8 years working on this product, I've almost never had crunch. Now granted our releases are very different than a videogame release these days... We have ~240 releases a year, and videogame projects are usually structured around one main release every one or two years, and then even the most active pprojects might only get... ~10 additional releases after that. So, sure, it's different, but the principals of project planning, human resources, and management are the same. The most profitable, successful software products in the world are those that typically don't have crunch like this.
Crunch is the result of poor management.
I don't think crunch and long hours are necessarily abuse... As long as employees are compensated and agree to the proposition. BUT... employees in videogame developer are usually not compensated commensurately for that committment. It tears families apart, puts undo stress on the developer, leads to children not seeing their parents, and videogame development is a notoriously shitty side of the software industry that has very poor treatment of workers long-term... A lot of these employees are going to be rewarded for their long hours with a small bonus and a severence letter when they get shit canned 6 months after release.
If you do work on a project that has horrible crunch or is burning you out: Leave now. If you're a videogame developer who is underpaid, with no job security beyond the project you're working on: quit the videogame industry. Your skills are instantly transferrable to the rest of software development, where the pay is higher, there's more mobility, and they more often respect you as a human being.
This is one of those reasons that, as a developer, you have a love hate relationship with delays. While crunching for a release date is horrible, sometimes just knowing that there's a ship date gives you some relief... LEt's you draw a line in the sand and say, "What we have at this date will be considered 'finished.'"
I'm not buying Cyberpunk at launch, not really because of this attitude around game development, but I'll pretend that I'm taking an ethical stand against crunch and needing to ship something for an arbitrary deadline that prioritizes season release time over the lives of the people building the product.
It's really not the nature of working on a large software product. I work on a large software project that has millions of customers, in 8 years working on this product, I've almost never had crunch. Now granted our releases are very different than a videogame release these days... We have ~240 releases a year, and videogame projects are usually structured around one main release every one or two years, and then even the most active pprojects might only get... ~10 additional releases after that. So, sure, it's different, but the principals of project planning, human resources, and management are the same. The most profitable, successful software products in the world are those that typically don't have crunch like this.
Crunch is the result of poor management.
I don't think crunch and long hours are necessarily abuse... As long as employees are compensated and agree to the proposition. BUT... employees in videogame developer are usually not compensated commensurately for that committment. It tears families apart, puts undo stress on the developer, leads to children not seeing their parents, and videogame development is a notoriously shitty side of the software industry that has very poor treatment of workers long-term... A lot of these employees are going to be rewarded for their long hours with a small bonus and a severence letter when they get shit canned 6 months after release.
If you do work on a project that has horrible crunch or is burning you out: Leave now. If you're a videogame developer who is underpaid, with no job security beyond the project you're working on: quit the videogame industry. Your skills are instantly transferrable to the rest of software development, where the pay is higher, there's more mobility, and they more often respect you as a human being.
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man, i do enjoy their Witcher games but they really need to get their shit sorted out.
why get Keanu on stage to announce a release date then wait until 3 months before it to announce it'll not come out until September? surely they knew they wouldn't make that day long before now?
and even with this delay they still need to get their workers doing crazy hours?
this kind of behavior is making me consider not paying full price at launch. if they are quite happy making us wait then i could just make them wait before getting any of my money. maybe i could pick the game up in 2021/2022 when the inevitable GOTY edition comes out. maybe i'll get it for like £15. not sure i want to spend £250 on the collector's edition anymore...
this sort of stuff needs to stop. stop delaying games and treat your workers right.
why get Keanu on stage to announce a release date then wait until 3 months before it to announce it'll not come out until September? surely they knew they wouldn't make that day long before now?
and even with this delay they still need to get their workers doing crazy hours?
this kind of behavior is making me consider not paying full price at launch. if they are quite happy making us wait then i could just make them wait before getting any of my money. maybe i could pick the game up in 2021/2022 when the inevitable GOTY edition comes out. maybe i'll get it for like £15. not sure i want to spend £250 on the collector's edition anymore...
this sort of stuff needs to stop. stop delaying games and treat your workers right.
It's a very old meme from GAF days pertaining to FFXIII coming to Xbox 360. I am surprised how it still catches people out even today. :D
That sucks, honestly from my own experience a few month in that crunch state can be horrible, hopefully the team can take some breaks and have some time with their family.
And regarding the delay, how in earth they they thought tat shipping on April was possible?
And regarding the delay, how in earth they they thought tat shipping on April was possible?
Stop delaying games and treat your workers right are like mutually exclusive things.
Also don't you just want to put your blood and sweat in something you LOVE like VIDEOGAMES? They sell the idea that doing crunch is a necessary work and a sacrifice for being part of something great, they are ultimatley taking advantage of young developers' passion.
working overtime is not really a bad thing, when we understand people work an average of 40 hours a week, and overtime means 4 hours extra max per day. That also saying people get paid those extra hours.
Reading this topics I get to realize many people dont get paid for OT, which is weird to me. I sometimes have to "Crush" to finish a project, but I get paid all my overtime hours...
Reading this topics I get to realize many people dont get paid for OT, which is weird to me. I sometimes have to "Crush" to finish a project, but I get paid all my overtime hours...
You have to remember that video games aren't like other tech. They are the unholy intersection of the tech and entertainment industries. And unlike a lot of the entertainment industry, video games don't have much in the way of worker protection or existing unions
I am a game developer and really enjoy the office and team, it doesn't even feel like a job... We get a lot of "OMG, they had crunch time on the game this shouldn't happen" on gaming forums and I always find it funny that the gaming community cares more about us staying late during a crunch than we do... We love our jobs and if someone has a kid, date or just want to go home to their wife, we let them.
Crunch isn't as bad as you all make it sound, some of us actually enjoy it, but regardless... We all enjoy the job, or we wouldn't be here.
Sounds like their not. Also it doesn't sound like he knows they will, he just assumes the delay is gonna require
As a game developer who's worked in AAA for nearly 8 years, I disagree with a lot of what's written here. You can love your job but still be disgusted with crunch.
Yes, because I'm sure everyone is in the same situation as you so you can speak generally with confidence. It's not likely we have had tons of articles from other people in the video game industry speaking out about how destructive crunch was.
so that's why the video game industry has one of the highest rates of burnout, especially among young developers.
Ah yes, the investors. Now we're getting to the root of the exploitation of the work force.
It absolutely is. Regardless of pay. How do you expect someone to have a normal private life when constantly working overtime - not even mentioning having a family at home. That's messing with people's mental health after a while. From experience you also do a lot of stuff "as a favour", whether you want it or not. If your colleagues are doing it, you'll be pressured into doing it.
Of course it depends on where you're working at but almost no one will go to court if a company is breaking labour laws a bit here and there. After all you'd ideally want to work at a place for a longer period of time and not make your own work life miserable by suing your employer.
Even here in Germany companies can get away with a lot of crap. I even had to sue one of my former workplaces for not paying me on purpose after a dispute for 3 months. The consequences for companies for not paying you are laughable. For me they're devastating.
So when your employer gets a bit liberal with the definition of crunch, you're screwed.
Yep, I have been in triple A for 12 years now, through Nintendo, Sony and Disney... If crunch disgusts you, then don't do it. If it is forced through the studio, then you need to find a better studio.
I think you're referencing the Rockstar article and the friends I have there said they were able to go home whenever they wanted. It was the newbies who were too scared to ask that started complaining... But, sure. CRUNCH IS BAD
Fuck crunch. Having worked in an environment with the occasional crunch period, the mental effects it has on developers is undeniable.
There's plenty of other things to play out there, so I'm just going to skip this and not reward a company for treating their workers like that.
There's plenty of other things to play out there, so I'm just going to skip this and not reward a company for treating their workers like that.
No I'm talking about many articles from all over the industry. You think Rockstar is first time this has come up?
Burnout is a serious problem, but look at the burnout rate of coders vs other game industry jobs and tell me the percentage of how many people other than coders are leaving.... I started out coding, after about a year or so I too got burnt out. Everyone thinks they love to code until it is literally all you do. Mentally I just got bored and couldn't do it anymore. So, I changed positions to a team lead and absolutely love it.
Coding burnout isn't specific to the gaming industry.
I just stopped caring about this. If certain fields refuse to engage in unionization and fighting to protect their rights as workers, I just cannot care. Same thing happened with MMA fighters, they all think they're special and in no time will be the person making all the money on the backs of their juniors.
Are you working 100+ hour workweeks? Are you starving yourself or skipping bathroom breaks because you're afraid of turning in something too late? Is the cost of living, paying rent/bills/etc. relative to your mental health? Not everyone has it as good as you, and it is well-documented that crunch is not only common, but overwhelmingly negative. Anecdotes aside, I'm sure there are plenty of smaller (hell, maybe even some larger) studios that have figured out a way to have good work-life balance and also not only consider the fiscal aspects of the commercial product being made in the first place. But in the end, if a company has more work to be completed by a certain date, and said work cannot be completed in a standard 40 hour workweek, either hire more people or reduce the workload (by delaying the game further).
thank you for your take! the lives ruined in gamedev are countless... marriages, plans, personal stuff...
the worse thing is if it's "not mandatory" and you opt not do, you start to get eyeballed and retaliated.
makes me wanna drop my aspiring dream carrer for good.