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JohnLennon

Member
May 16, 2020
4,126
After the XBOX news, I kind a have a feeling that we're just lucky SE is still around making games..
Imagine SE being part of Sony or MS and suddenly we got the news that CBU1 or CBU3 are shutting down....
To be fair, this was literally a week ago:

www.gamesindustry.biz

Square Enix takes $140 million hit on cancelled games

Square Enix today warned investors that its next earnings report will include a significant hit due to a number of canc…

No one is safe :(
 

oty

Member
Feb 28, 2023
4,637
To be fair, this was literally a week ago:

www.gamesindustry.biz

Square Enix takes $140 million hit on cancelled games

Square Enix today warned investors that its next earnings report will include a significant hit due to a number of canc…

No one is safe :(
didnt that also come with zero layoffs?

MS is a trillion dollar company closing studios with critically acclaimed title released the last year, Square is like a footprint compared to them. the comparison is off imo
 

Nama

A Big Deal
Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,363
While their pay is terrible least Japanese devs have protections against mass layoffs unless they can prove the company is in dire condition.
 

Eien1no1Yami

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,331
To be fair, this was literally a week ago:

www.gamesindustry.biz

Square Enix takes $140 million hit on cancelled games

Square Enix today warned investors that its next earnings report will include a significant hit due to a number of canc…

No one is safe :(
I mean sure, but the restructuring is done internally, games like FF, DQ, KH e.t.c. are the most important titles for SE.
But if the scope changes and the restructuring was done by MS or Sony then suddently those titles are not the most important ones in the company's portfolio
making more unsafe for those studios.
 

vio55555

Member
Apr 11, 2024
336
Sequels will always be lower barring exceptions to the norm. Even Tears of the Kingdom, which had an opening 10x bigger than its predecessor, probably won't ultimately leg it out to surpass BotW. The first entry will just always be the accessible evergreen. So it's gotta start high, it's the ceiling.

So the more I think about it the more I think that Remake really could've just been a better start for this trilogy. I feel like specifically trying to pinpoint what about Remake could've been changed to achieve that is pointless and will make personal bias come out, as there's literally no way to prove that outside of just vibes, so I'll just say overall if Remake 1) straight up sold more than it did, thus leaving more potential players for Rebirth and 2) left an overall better impression, we wouldn't be in this situation right now.

Yeah, exclusivity is another thing too, but still - there was room on the PS4's install base for Remake reach a much bigger audience than it did. Imagine if it had Rebirth's WOM back then.
I feel like the whole sales discussion always needs to start from: "long narrative game sequels typically see 30-50% sales declines across iterations due to attrition and other factors." The important caveat is always: that only applies to games that can't be sold as entirely separate iterations like Spiderman/God of War/Mass Effect/etc. or where the audience doesn't deem the overarching narrative as a barrier to entry.

It's sort of gotten mixed up because so many people see games that increase sales across time and think, "why isn't that happening for X long narrative game?" But this isn't a movie where 95-99% of theater goers finish the movie + home video showings increase the potential audience.

Your potential audience for a long narrative video game sequel is always much smaller because typically well under 50% of players finish the first game and the sequels aren't that accessible to outsiders (extremely low accessibility with how FF7 trilogy's narrative is structured).

TotK's sales numbers are pretty much terrific given it's a sequel. I was never expecting it to reach 80-90% of BotW's total given attrition and that it's similar gameplay to a generation defining title that completely transformed the Zelda brand into a true title-for-title equal to mainline Mario and Pokemon (which it never was even close to before). Idea of a 20 million Zelda seller would have been laughed out of the room a decade ago; it was too niche a title.

It's like everyone in the Zelda discussion forgot that Majora's Mask only sold 50% of OoT's numbers (and that happened both during the original run for the two games as well as the HD run for the two games). That 50% dropoff happened to both the N64 and 3DS releases..., so it sort of proves just how difficult selling sequels is for these types of games.
 

chocolate

Member
Feb 28, 2018
3,843
This song.

I loved the first phase of it.
Then the second phase started and it got weaker.
Then the third phase got even weaker.
Dynamic battle themes can be cool, but it's like they got it backwards?

Phase 1 was sooo good.

The vocals and that sped up drum beat before the theme kicked in was such an amazing musical idea.

Second and third phases I did not like at all, and I listened to the track at least 7 times in its entirety to see if I can force myself to like it but... I just couldn't get into the other parts.

Jenova Tenacity is better since the theme is present throughout it all, but I think of the 3 remixed versions of Jenova in the remake games, Jenova in Remake was the best one. Even then, the best part of the track is in the final third of it so...

But hey, that final third really is a banger.

Here's to hoping Jenova in the third game is the banger theme from start to finish.

As far as the multi-verse thing goes, I think you're right; it just makes things messy from a story-telling perspective, especially if you're trying to weave different timelines/same characters from different worlds across multiple games. And it's not clear that the storytelling improves as a result. It's basically impossible to do it in an accessible way or a way that's clean unless it's done in a very tight way (i.e. a couple characters shift from a different timeline to the current one and then either return or die or are resolved).

I've become convinced that the best game storytelling is to a certain extent, self-contained. You've already committed upwards to 50-100 hours or more in this world, you should get a full payoff for all that time spent with the characters/world.

Ask yourself, "if you only watched this one game or saw this one movie without any follow up content, would you be satisfied?"

That's probably the biggest error here; I don't feel like each game individually in this trilogy provides a big payoff, whereas before you could argue every FF game before this has a conclusive ending (even if the story is continued later).

It's tough to imagine Part 3 selling particularly well given all we've discussed; I can easily see a scenario where the Trilogy packs outsell the 3rd game by a huge margin over time.

As far as future FFs go, this whole project is a cautionary tale on narrative structure moving forwards (make sure you really tell a full story about the party in every game).

I'm wondering if they'll think about releasing a twin pack between now and the last game? And then perhaps a trilogy pack after that is out?
 

gozu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,442
America
I feel as if they'd have been better off structuring this FF7 Trilogy as FFX/FFX-2 or FF13/FF13-2/Lightning Returns were structured, more as FF7 followed by sequels to the original FF7 story that transforms the original story into a broader narrative rather than as a reimagining of the FF7 story into a singular giant story divided across 3 games. There was probably a way to restructure the story to make it more 3 linked stories in an overarching narrative, but SE made the choices that they made.

It's easier than that in my view. They could've simply split the game in two. So the second would have a proper conclusion. In fact I think that was the original plan.

At some point, Square convinced themselves they could get away with 3 games, and that was clearly wrong. Just wrong. Dividing one game In two parts was already a big ask from players. Anything beyond that was madness. I thought so at the time, many, many years ago, so this is not a "hindsight" thing.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,748
I'm wondering if they'll think about releasing a twin pack between now and the last game? And then perhaps a trilogy pack after that is out?

I've said it in the thread before, but I think the best approach would be to offer the whole trilogy for $70, and sell part 3 somewhere between $40-50. Remake has already been offered for free so there's no real loss there, the question is now what they do with Rebirth in the next few years.

Of course, discounting part 3 itself might not even be practical depending on its development, but if they can then giving players a reasonably priced entry to the whole story can do wonders for getting people on board.
 

vio55555

Member
Apr 11, 2024
336
I'm wondering if they'll think about releasing a twin pack between now and the last game? And then perhaps a trilogy pack after that is out?
Most likely we see a PC port at least of the 2nd game before they start selling double packs.

(That's also the problem with this kind of exclusive release setup for a trilogy, it means you have to try to maximize revenue from every individual buyer but you end up delaying combination packs because of how long it takes to get ports out).

They'll have to be selling double packs for at least 6 months before the 3rd game whenever they start to reveal trailers and start up marketing to try to rebuild hype. But yes, ultimately, after the 3rd game comes out; the problem is if it's exclusive to PS5-6, that just means that they have to delay the trilogy pack until at least the PC port comes out for the 3rd game.

Again, they have to try to maximize the revenue from the first 2-4 million buyers on PS and PC; but it just delays everything and delays typically dampen hype and mean less sales in the long run (i.e. delayed sales become never sales). It's why so many things about this trilogy have worked against it (the PS5 exclusivity and Epic store exclusivity being two severe problems beyond just narrative issues).

But I don't see them having much of a choice, they probably have to wait until after PC buyers get the 2nd and 3rd game individually to start putting out trilogy packs. It's the only way to try to recoup a big portion of the investment here.

3rd game will probably be heavily discounted within 6-12 months as well the prior double pack, and then the trilogy pack will finally come out and be a longer term evergreen.

At the end of all this, at least the trilogy pack will be a long term profit generator for SE's library (especially with remasters and the like and availability everywhere eventually).
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,121
I've said it in the thread before, but I think the best approach would be to offer the whole trilogy for $70, and sell part 3 somewhere between $40-50. Remake has already been offered for free so there's no real loss there, the question is now what they do with Rebirth in the next few years.

Of course, discounting part 3 itself might not even be practical depending on its development, but if they can then giving players a reasonably priced entry to the whole story can do wonders for getting people on board.

They'll just do what they did with Rebirth and give your the prior game(s) for free during a pre-order promotion period. Hopefully its further out to give people a chance to play them since its 100+ hours of content.

Fat chance of them releasing Part 3 at anything less than 69.99. Not sure why anyone would entertain that notion, its SE.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,748
They'll just do what they did with Rebirth and give your the prior game(s) for free during a pre-order promotion period. Hopefully its further out to give people a chance to play them since its 100+ hours of content.

Fat chance of them releasing Part 3 at anything less than 69.99. Not sure why anyone would entertain that notion, its SE.

I never said I expect them to, but I do think that would be more effective than the discounted pre-order they did for Rebirth.

But yeah, giving people access to Remake and Rebirth early if they pre-order the trilogy pack is a must.
 

vio55555

Member
Apr 11, 2024
336
It's easier than that in my view. They could've simply split the game in two. So the second would have a proper conclusion. In fact I think that was the original plan.

At some point, Square convinced themselves they could get away with 3 games, and that was clearly wrong. Just wrong. Dividing one game In two parts was already a big ask from players. Anything beyond that was madness. I thought so at the time, many, many years ago, so this is not a "hindsight" thing.
Yeah that's ultimately what it comes down to; structuring each game to provide a payoff. It's almost impossible to pull off with a single story narrative divided up into 3 parts. The first 2 won't provide conclusions to all the hours of investment.

At least if you only divide the story into 2 parts, you only have that problem with the initial game, so it's easier to come up with a decisive place in the story to divide the two halves.

With 3, you have these messy starting/ending points at end of Remake/start of Rebirth and end of Rebirth/start of 3rd game.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,121
I never said I expect them to, but I do think that would be more effective than the discounted pre-order they did for Rebirth.

But yeah, giving people access to Remake and Rebirth early if they pre-order the trilogy pack is a must.

They would need to sell significantly more copies at 50 dollars to offset the loss of revenue of dropping it from the 70 dollar price point and you leave less wiggle room for price drops to sell copies at the 6/12/18 month mark that way. The FF7 diehards are going to be there day one no matter what price so you might as well make as much money as you can from them.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,748
They would need to sell significantly more copies at 50 dollars to offset the loss of revenue of dropping it from the 70 dollar price point and you leave less wiggle room for price drops to sell copies at the 6/12/18 month mark that way. The FF7 diehards are going to be there day one no matter what price so you might as well make as much money as you can from them.

A lot is going to depend on where Rebirth ends up, because it wouldn't be wise to bet on FFVII fans if it has underperformed too much, but if it still ends up fine overall then whatever.
 

Mephissto

Member
Mar 8, 2024
639
Releasing a premium game cheaper immediately is a bad idea if you want to make profit. The hardcore fans will always show up and the price can always be lowered later during sales and if you go in cheaper immediately then your sales need to be even cheaper. You also diminish the value of a triple pack later.

You want to market Remake and Rebirth aggressively during the P3 marketing campaing. Ideally with sales and ports. Once P3 releases you sell it for full price and then sell the triple pack for 100-140 and on sales go lower etc.
 
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Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,121
A lot is going to depend on where Rebirth ends up, because it wouldn't be wise to bet on FFVII fans if it has underperformed too much, but if it still ends up fine overall then whatever.

Which just proves my point further? If (more than likely) Part 3 is going to sell less than Rebirth then just do the math to see how a lower ASP doesn't help.

Over simplifying it but:

1 million sales x 70 USD = 70 million

To get that same revenue at 50 USD, they would need to sell 1.4 million copies at 50 USD. 1.4x as many copies need to be sold to make up for that. There aren't 400,000 theoretical consumers out there where the thing preventing them from buying Part 3 is going to be a whopping 20 dollars.
 

vio55555

Member
Apr 11, 2024
336
Which just proves my point further? If (more than likely) Part 3 is going to sell less than Rebirth then just do the math to see how a lower ASP doesn't help.

Over simplifying it but:

1 million sales x 70 USD = 70 million

To get that same revenue at 50 USD, they would need to sell 1.4 million copies at 50 USD. 1.4x as many copies need to be sold to make up for that. There aren't 400,000 theoretical consumers out there where the thing preventing them from buying Part 3 is going to be a whopping 20 dollars.
Yep, this is exactly why they aren't going to change the strategy now of trying to maximize Rebirth sales on PC and then 3rd game sales on both PS5-6 and PC before rolling out lower prices and a trilogy pack everywhere.
 

Biosnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,343
I've said it in the thread before, but I think the best approach would be to offer the whole trilogy for $70, and sell part 3 somewhere between $40-50. Remake has already been offered for free so there's no real loss there, the question is now what they do with Rebirth in the next few years.

Of course, discounting part 3 itself might not even be practical depending on its development, but if they can then giving players a reasonably priced entry to the whole story can do wonders for getting people on board.
Part 3 for not full price?

lmao
 
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dglavimans

Member
Nov 13, 2019
8,062
Glad those Microsoft buying Square Enix rumors rounded to nothing or I would be sweating for part 3 right now.
 

TheMerv

Member
Jan 1, 2022
1,617
I just want to add on the music front there's a lot of fantastic stuff like Kyrie's Merc song, the instrumental remix of Hollow, the Queen's Blood theme and there's so much of it in so many different areas of the game.

I couldn't stop listening to the last Jenova theme for a bit there...after I beat the game. I was afraid to look the music up until after I finished my 140 hour playthrough. I imagine the other 3 or 4 people who bought the game were of similar mindset.

The game selling peanuts and being a game you actively avoid spoilers for makes it unsurprising that it's view counts are down in comparison to a game that's been out for much longer.
 

chocolate

Member
Feb 28, 2018
3,843
the instrumental remix of Hollow,

Words can't describe how much I love this remix. Both the field and battle versions. One of the best tracks in Rebirth's OST for sure.

This is more Square continuing the vision of there current Head

I wonder what the current Head's vision means for part 3?

Anyone know when development for part 3 actually started? Most likely before Rebirth got released right? Perhaps even 6 months or so before?
 

oty

Member
Feb 28, 2023
4,637
Anyone know when development for part 3 actually started? Most likely before Rebirth got released right? Perhaps even 6 months or so before?
part 3 has been in some kind of development since they said so in 2022. full active development probably a few months before Rebirth, yeah
 

ScionN7

Member
Oct 26, 2019
1,523
The longer I've thought about it, the more I'm starting to think I may have slept on how much the changes to the story may have impacted sales. I mean yeah I think PS5 exclusivity definitely didn't help, but Remake sold pretty damn well in its first few months, so that at least shows an huge initial interest in the project from the get go. Then with the next part there's apparently a huge drop off, worse than even the more pessimistic predictions expected.

People have begged Square for a remake of FFVII for so many years. For them to bait them into a Remake when it's actually some sort of multiverse sequel/remake, was an absolutely insane move. A risky move. One could argue it was subversive and clever, but it's probably safe to say at this point it hasn't paid off for them.

It's possible that if Remake Part 1 was a very faithful and well executed retelling of the first third of FFVII, we could be seeing the same sales projections as we're seeing now. But I'm not totally convinced. The hype leading into Rebirth was so muted compared to Remake. I'm not saying the changes to the story is the answer, but lately I'm a lot more open to the idea that it did a lot more damage than I thought.
 

Mephissto

Member
Mar 8, 2024
639
The longer I've thought about it, the more I'm starting to think I may have slept on how much the changes to the story may have impacted sales. I mean yeah I think PS5 exclusivity definitely didn't help, but Remake sold pretty damn well in its first few months, so that at least shows an huge initial interest in the project from the get go. Then with the next part there's apparently a huge drop off, worse than even the more pessimistic predictions expected.

People have begged Square for a remake of FFVII for so many years. For them to bait them into a Remake when it's actually some sort of multiverse sequel/remake, was an absolutely insane move. A risky move. One could argue it was subversive and clever, but it's probably safe to say at this point it hasn't paid off for them.

It's possible that if Remake Part 1 was a very faithful and well executed retelling of the first third of FFVII, we could be seeing the same sales projections as we're seeing now. But I'm not totally convinced. The hype leading into Rebirth was so muted compared to Remake. I'm not saying the changes to the story is the answer, but lately I'm a lot more open to the idea that it did a lot more damage than I thought.

Personally I doubt it would change much. Let's say you kill Roboball at the end of part 1 and then the game simply ends with the journey to Kalm cutscene and done. Can't imagine that would boost sales.

It might have a different more indirect influence on sales though. All the conversation about whether it is a sequel or not and if you need to play the other games to understand Remake probably hurt sales a bit. That conversation definitely created a small barrier of entry for newcomers. Though I always found that whole debate weird since it was only part 1 of 3 and naturally it wouldn't answer all the questions someone even new to FF7nwould have. Even if it followed only the OG story there is lots of stuff in VII that kinda only makes sense after Cloud's true identity is revealed.
 
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Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever™
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,851
The longer I've thought about it, the more I'm starting to think I may have slept on how much the changes to the story may have impacted sales. I mean yeah I think PS5 exclusivity definitely didn't help, but Remake sold pretty damn well in its first few months, so that at least shows an huge initial interest in the project from the get go. Then with the next part there's apparently a huge drop off, worse than even the more pessimistic predictions expected.

People have begged Square for a remake of FFVII for so many years. For them to bait them into a Remake when it's actually some sort of multiverse sequel/remake, was an absolutely insane move. A risky move. One could argue it was subversive and clever, but it's probably safe to say at this point it hasn't paid off for them.

It's possible that if Remake Part 1 was a very faithful and well executed retelling of the first third of FFVII, we could be seeing the same sales projections as we're seeing now. But I'm not totally convinced. The hype leading into Rebirth was so muted compared to Remake. I'm not saying the changes to the story is the answer, but lately I'm a lot more open to the idea that it did a lot more damage than I thought.
A guy I know and somebody who I used to be friends with (he's also got two FFVII-related tattoos lol) called me unsolicited to rant about the ending to Remake to me. A phone call. We didn't even have an active text thread at the time because we just don't talk anymore. When Rebirth dropped I texted him if he got it and he flatly replied "hell no" and we didn't talk after that. Dude is just one person and this is just an anecdote but it affected a number of people greater than zero. For me it was like 80/20 split between gameplay and story that has me uninterested in picking the Remake trilogy back up.
 

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,842
After the XBOX news, I kind a have a feeling that we're just lucky SE is still around making games..
Imagine SE being part of Sony or MS and suddenly we got the news that CBU1 or CBU3 are shutting down....
The thing to keep in mind is that SE is still making lots of money. Like, these last few years they've posted their best results. They just want to make more money.
 

oty

Member
Feb 28, 2023
4,637
The longer I've thought about it, the more I'm starting to think I may have slept on how much the changes to the story may have impacted sales. I mean yeah I think PS5 exclusivity definitely didn't help, but Remake sold pretty damn well in its first few months, so that at least shows an huge initial interest in the project from the get go. Then with the next part there's apparently a huge drop off, worse than even the more pessimistic predictions expected.
It's difficult to gauge how well Remake sold, specially since Covid certainly influenced it. Looking at the numbers, it broke the record for most units sold by a PS exclusive at "launch" (first 3 days iirc) but it had the usual JRPG drop. It's legs were kinda bad afterwards, so much so that we got Imran reporting that SE was expecting more out of Remake, even if they still thought it was a success. Critically-wise, Rebirth was acclaimed, so it's difficult to pin down story as that big of a factor

A lot of factors influence the drop off for Part 2 that aren't story related. No covid, PS5 is doing worse in Japan software-wise, the "nostalgia" angle is done (even without story changes it would have been gone), economical decline and higher price, etc.

All of those slowly trickle up, besides the already tall barrier of entry of it being a 2nd part in a Remake, and Rebirth, FF as whole recently even, doesn't make emergent gameplay and some inovative systems that "break" the bubble around it and entices new audiences to try it without prior knowledge. XVI "kinda" did it, it's sales being formed by mostly younger people, but they did it mostly by focusing on combat and by marketing it very much as "you can PLAY this without knowledge okay" (which was correct, don't ge me wrong, but we can argue how effective it was considering it didnt exactly break the bubble)

The thing to keep in mind is that SE is still making lots of money. Like, these last few years they've posted their best results. They just want to make more money.
i think since 2021 or 2022 their profits are decreasing, isn't it? no endwalker, their mobile is kinda crashing and their single player games arent making a lot of bank. considering development all around is just increasing and we have some bad economical fluctuations going on, it's not like they just want to make more money. they kinda just want to make close to the same money they once did
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
20,141
The longer I've thought about it, the more I'm starting to think I may have slept on how much the changes to the story may have impacted sales. I mean yeah I think PS5 exclusivity definitely didn't help, but Remake sold pretty damn well in its first few months, so that at least shows an huge initial interest in the project from the get go. Then with the next part there's apparently a huge drop off, worse than even the more pessimistic predictions expected.

People have begged Square for a remake of FFVII for so many years. For them to bait them into a Remake when it's actually some sort of multiverse sequel/remake, was an absolutely insane move. A risky move. One could argue it was subversive and clever, but it's probably safe to say at this point it hasn't paid off for them.

It's possible that if Remake Part 1 was a very faithful and well executed retelling of the first third of FFVII, we could be seeing the same sales projections as we're seeing now. But I'm not totally convinced. The hype leading into Rebirth was so muted compared to Remake. I'm not saying the changes to the story is the answer, but lately I'm a lot more open to the idea that it did a lot more damage than I thought.

The problem with the hypothetical scecnarios is that you are only considering the people who didnt buy Rebirth, and not considering that the crazy ending of why a lot of people did, in fact, buy Rebirth.

I think the issue with a single story being split into 3 parts becomes even bigger if you are literally just retelling the same existing story, there's even less of a hook. Maybe you keep more purists onboard for the whole trilogy, but who knows, maybe it wouldn't counterbalance the people who aren't all that interested in experiencing the same story in a fancier presentation.

Also, its worth considering that, would CBU1 have put their full weight behind the project if they were just to do a straight remake? Personally.. I dont think so. and then, maybe the quality would've suffered too. Maybe Remake wouldn't have sold as well and we would have had reduced scope for Rebirth. Who knows.

We could also talk about how this entire project was probably 10 yeasr too late given the age of people who were fans of the original, a lot of them probably aged out of gaming and maybe they only picked up Remake because it was covid and everyone was home. But then, maybe the tech wouldn't have allowed certain things and we'd have ended up with a cut down product.

So, yeah, I dunno, I think its not as simple as "if they did X, then it wouldve been a net improvement". The only thing that would be a full, clean net improvement is being present on more platforms. Maybe it'd have dropped from remake to rebirth the same, but its different when it drops from 5m to 3m or if it goes from 10m to 7m.
 

oty

Member
Feb 28, 2023
4,637
The problem with the hypothetical scecnarios is that you are only considering the people who didnt buy Rebirth, and not considering that the crazy ending of why a lot of people did, in fact, buy Rebirth.

I think the issue with a single story being split into 3 parts becomes even bigger if you are literally just retelling the same existing story, there's even less of a hook. Maybe you keep more purists onboard for the whole trilogy, but who knows, maybe it wouldn't counterbalance the people who aren't all that interested in experiencing the same story in a fancier presentation.

Also, its worth considering that, would CBU1 have put their full weight behind the project if they were just to do a straight remake? Personally.. I dont think so. and then, maybe the quality would've suffered too. Maybe Remake wouldn't have sold as well and we would have had reduced scope for Rebirth. Who knows.

We could also talk about how this entire project was probably 10 yeasr too late given the age of people who were fans of the original, a lot of them probably aged out of gaming and maybe they only picked up Remake because it was covid and everyone was home. But then, maybe the tech wouldn't have allowed certain things and we'd have ended up with a cut down product.

So, yeah, I dunno, I think its not as simple as "if they did X, then it wouldve been a net improvement". The only thing that would be a full, clean net improvement is being present on more platforms. Maybe it'd have dropped from remake to rebirth the same, but its different when it drops from 5m to 3m or if it goes from 10m to 7m.
if it was a RE4R style, one "part" Remake (with changes or not), it would have, 100%, sold better. SE knew this when they decided to make this a grandiose project. It was/is financially risky, you just don't have enough of a nostalgia/newcomer angle in 2 parts, let alone more. maybe they were counting on something else to keep the hype up, idk

obviously, we have to take into consideration the desires of the creators, and as you said, if CBU1 didn't want that, there was nothing they could do other than...just not go forward. Which, idk, 10 years later in a project that's just not giving you the returns you wanted, maybe it would have been the right call
 

xenosys83

Banned
Mar 19, 2024
319
The reason why it's not selling as well as many had predicted/hoped is likely multi-factorial and doesn't boil down to one single, quantifiable reason.

What people predicted/hoped for probably differs from person to person, but I personally expected they'd be sitting around 3 - 4m units sold right now when I seen the SOP back in February, but once the GOTY-level scores came in, I was hoping it'd be sitting on 4 - 4.5m after a couple of months through strong word of mouth. I was wrong on both counts.

However, if we're going by critic and the general user sentiment on social media and various forums that it's been largely well-received from the gamers that have actually played through it, then game quality isn't the reason why it's not moving numbers.

PS5 Exclusivity is likely one. Not having it multi-platform and especially as a Steam PC release on D1 definitely hurt its sales. I just hope for SE's sake that the $$$ that Sony gave them for exclusive rights out-weighs the benefits they would have gained by having a D1 release on other platforms. It's estimated that Remake has sold around 1m copies on PC in the last 2 years, and that's with a staggered EGS and Steam release long after the PS4 launch. Perhaps Rebirth would have done 2 - 3m on PC alone over the next 2-3 years with a D1 release. Again, speculation.

Without going into an essay-like response, marketing is probably another.

I've posted before that once it's all said and done and we've had the trilogy release in separate parts by 2027/2028 and then all the various trilogy packs 1-2 years down the line on the PC/PS6/PS5/Switch2 etc, the series of games will have likely sold 15 - 20m copies in total. Does the revenue, the exclusivity money from Sony and the decade-long development time through CBU1 justify that sort of return?

Only SE and the development team will be able to tell you that.

I can only say that from my own experience, I had a good time with Remake and a great time with Rebirth. Does it justify the $140 I've spent so far over the last 3 years? Absolutely.
 

ScionN7

Member
Oct 26, 2019
1,523
The problem with the hypothetical scecnarios is that you are only considering the people who didnt buy Rebirth, and not considering that the crazy ending of why a lot of people did, in fact, buy Rebirth.

I think the issue with a single story being split into 3 parts becomes even bigger if you are literally just retelling the same existing story, there's even less of a hook. Maybe you keep more purists onboard for the whole trilogy, but who knows, maybe it wouldn't counterbalance the people who aren't all that interested in experiencing the same story in a fancier presentation.

Also, its worth considering that, would CBU1 have put their full weight behind the project if they were just to do a straight remake? Personally.. I dont think so. and then, maybe the quality would've suffered too. Maybe Remake wouldn't have sold as well and we would have had reduced scope for Rebirth. Who knows.

We could also talk about how this entire project was probably 10 yeasr too late given the age of people who were fans of the original, a lot of them probably aged out of gaming and maybe they only picked up Remake because it was covid and everyone was home. But then, maybe the tech wouldn't have allowed certain things and we'd have ended up with a cut down product.

So, yeah, I dunno, I think its not as simple as "if they did X, then it wouldve been a net improvement". The only thing that would be a full, clean net improvement is being present on more platforms. Maybe it'd have dropped from remake to rebirth the same, but its different when it drops from 5m to 3m or if it goes from 10m to 7m.

Yeah to be clear I don't peg it on one singular reason. Before I didn't put much stock into the direction of the story, but lately I've been thinking it probably had more impact than I gave credit for.
 
Jan 1, 2024
1,573
Midgar
if it was a RE4R style, one "part" Remake (with changes or not), it would have, 100%, sold better. SE knew this when they decided to make this a grandiose project. It was/is financially risky, you just don't have enough of a nostalgia/newcomer angle in 2 parts, let alone more. maybe they were counting on something else to keep the hype up, idk
I don't think the number of people who are waiting to play all 3 or don't have interest because it's 3 parts is very high at all to make a measurable impact on sales. Most of the casual audience will have bought FFVII Remake without even realising its divded into parts.
 

oty

Member
Feb 28, 2023
4,637
I don't think the number of people who are waiting to play all 3 or don't have interest because it's 3 parts is very high at all to make a measurable impact on sales. Most of the casual audience will have bought FFVII Remake without even realising its divded into parts.
that's not it though. the nostalgia and newcomer angle for one single entry, or the first part, is extremely high and it makes up for some incredible hype. we can argue how much Covid influenced on Remake's launch, but it was remarkable. that's one of the big factors of why there are remakes of extremely popular games, you can draw in the old fans and the newcomers who want to experience an acclaimed title, it's essentially a win-win scenario

you just...don't have that for the subsequent parts at all. people already got their "fill" with the first game, and it's completely unrelated to story. even if Remake didn't do it's shenanigans at the end, I don't think it would have changed much
 
Jan 1, 2024
1,573
Midgar
that's not it though. the nostalgia and newcomer angle for one single entry, or the first part, is extremely high and it makes up for some incredible hype. we can argue how much Covid influenced on Remake's launch, but it was remarkable. that's one of the big factors of why there are remakes of extremely popular games, you can draw in the old fans and the newcomers who want to experience an acclaimed title, it's essentially a win-win scenario

you just...don't have that for the subsequent parts at all. people already got their "fill" with the first game, and it's completely unrelated to story. even if Remake didn't do it's shenanigans at the end, I don't think it would have changed much
I reckon the naming scheme is a big part of the problem. Like with WiiU. Just call it Remake II and Remake III.
 

Toth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,157
I've said it in the thread before, but I think the best approach would be to offer the whole trilogy for $70, and sell part 3 somewhere between $40-50. Remake has already been offered for free so there's no real loss there, the question is now what they do with Rebirth in the next few years.

Of course, discounting part 3 itself might not even be practical depending on its development, but if they can then giving players a reasonably priced entry to the whole story can do wonders for getting people on board.

it's not A bad idea but yeah, SE wants / needs to make money so it's going to be full priced.
 

Eien1no1Yami

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,331
I hope Kiryu-san is reading every post as he plots a course for the future
Konbanwa Kiryu-san!
giphy.gif
 

samcastor

Member
Apr 21, 2021
2,109
Personally I doubt it would change much. Let's say you kill Roboball at the end of part 1 and then the game simply ends with the journey to Kalm cutscene and done. Can't imagine that would boost sales.

It might have a different more indirect influence on sales though. All the conversation about whether it is a sequel or not and if you need to play the other games to understand Remake probably hurt sales a bit. That conversation definitely created a small barrier of entry for newcomers. Though I always found that whole debate weird since it was only part 1 of 3 and naturally it wouldn't answer all the questions someone even new to FF7nwould have. Even if it followed only the OG story there is lots of stuff in VII that kinda only makes sense after Cloud's true identity is revealed.
I think it would change enough, because without the newly added stuff, the game's narrative would actually flow like the first part of a bigger story rather than the wink-wink shrug-shrug nature of Sephiroth and whispers and Zack showing up to elicit a response from people who already knew the expected beats in the story. If the end was actually just leaving Midgar with some mysteries left unresolved, it would be a cliffhanger like almost every other series in existence. Instead, you get the last 30 minutes of a game that completely break the groundwork laid down in the last 30 hours, and you get no answers. The game sets up these mysteries within like 10 minutes of each other rather than the original story line what wove these threads into the narrative slowly. The getting the bad together and leaving midgar to hunt down a common enemy would have at least closed out one arc in the story. Instead, you're left feeling like the game just ended out of nowhere.

As someone who played FF7 Remake as their first FF7 game, I cannot describe the dissonance between the reputation of Sephiroth and FF7's story vs what you experience for yourself if you don't know anything about it going in.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,748
it's not A bad idea but yeah, SE wants / needs to make money so it's going to be full priced.

Yeah. I don't have any expectation of them actually doing that, I only said it because they were one step away from it with the Remake+Rebirth pre-order.

But if they didn't want to make a permanent easy access to the current story with a game they literally gave away for free once before, odds aren't likely they will when part 3 comes around.

Unfortunately game sizes are so large now that it likely wouldn't be practical to pack in the first two stories with part 3, Dissidia 012 like, but if they could that would potentially be a massive boost.
 

madbuk

Member
Jul 2, 2022
445
I hope Kiryu-san is reading every post as he plots a course for the future
God I hope not. Ideally creating games should be more than just making numbers go higher, it should be a creative process, and the Remake trilogy absolutely delivers on being a bold and risky creative endeavour. We criticize Sony/Microsoft/Ubisoft/etc. for playing it safe and then criticize Square for not doing so...
 

crimzonflame

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,799
The longer I've thought about it, the more I'm starting to think I may have slept on how much the changes to the story may have impacted sales. I mean yeah I think PS5 exclusivity definitely didn't help, but Remake sold pretty damn well in its first few months, so that at least shows an huge initial interest in the project from the get go. Then with the next part there's apparently a huge drop off, worse than even the more pessimistic predictions expected.

People have begged Square for a remake of FFVII for so many years. For them to bait them into a Remake when it's actually some sort of multiverse sequel/remake, was an absolutely insane move. A risky move. One could argue it was subversive and clever, but it's probably safe to say at this point it hasn't paid off for them.

It's possible that if Remake Part 1 was a very faithful and well executed retelling of the first third of FFVII, we could be seeing the same sales projections as we're seeing now. But I'm not totally convinced. The hype leading into Rebirth was so muted compared to Remake. I'm not saying the changes to the story is the answer, but lately I'm a lot more open to the idea that it did a lot more damage than I thought.
It's part this and I also feel that people got their 'fix' with Remake and were done with the series. It also didn't help that SE didn't announce it as a trilogy at the time. A lot of pessimism was around SE milking the series and it would be split into 4-5 parts. Heck I think there's still casuals out there that don't know that it's going to be a trilogy.
 

oty

Member
Feb 28, 2023
4,637
God I hope not. Ideally creating games should be more than just making numbers go higher, it should be a creative process, and the Remake trilogy absolutely delivers on being a bold and risky creative endeavour. We criticize Sony/Microsoft/Ubisoft/etc. for playing it safe and then criticize Square for not doing so...
not sure what this means tbh. you talk as if a RE4R style remake isn't just as much a creative endeavour, and it was a route they could have totally taken and would be considered "safe" compared to the Remake project. also, SE also isn't some charity organization, they have tons of workers they have a duty to pay and as any sensible company they should choose what's best for them, short and medium and long term

so yes, they should let the creative process take over and be aware of financial risks because they have a responsability to the thousands of employees they currently helm. you can do both at the same time, as several other companies have proved
 
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