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Daniel Ahmad (ZhugeEX): Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth is underperforming sales wise. Selling about half of what Remake sold in the same timeframe

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Linus815

Linus815

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Oct 29, 2017
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CenaToon said:
If the game would have released multiplat, there would not have been sony's moneyhat. In the end, we dont know how much sony paid for the console exclusive, and if that number covered potential PC's sales

So either way, the game would have been fucked.
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FF15: 5 million in 1 day
FF7 Remake: 3.5 million in 3 days
FF16: 3 million in a week
FF7 Rebirth: ?? (probably ~2.5 million in 2 months?)

The brand is literally shrinking realtime despite the quality of the titles being on the up. It's not just Rebirth, its a downward trend. The millions of people on xbox and then on PC that were interested in FF games after 15 were discarded by SE when they decided to make FF7R and 16 Playstation exclusive.***

This is just a shitty way to run your busienss on the long term imo. Theres a reason why every other series seemed to have embraced multiplatform. They're way less affected by the whim of certain markets. Like, Japan is clearly not buying PS5 SW. Why? Fuck knows. But, when your JRPG is PS5 exclusive, thats a pretty big fucking problem. Meanwhile series like Yakuza or Persona can easily counterbalance that by sales on PC, western markets and even Xbox apparently.


***and late ports are not it. Especially when you decide to take EGS excluviity first for 6 months, price it 80 euros, and make it completely barebones. FF15 had the benefit of the doubt at least with releasing with tons of PC exclusive features, a lowered price and Royal edition right off the gate.
 
Lockheartilly9799

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vio55555 said:
At this point I doubt they reduce the budget significantly for Part 3.

They know that the trilogy pack will be a long-term 15-20 year horizon seller (with remasters and such).

FFX/FFX-2 HD Remaster has sold 7 million packs now. Even if the 3rd part doesn't sell that well on its own, trilogy packs will likely sell at a very high rate across all platforms and I can see a future announcement in 10 or 20 years of trilogy packs (including remasters) hitting 10+ million.

So they still have to think long-term here and make sure that the 3rd game is as good as possible.
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Do you think it's possible for next gen consoles if they re-work the trilogy to fit one game with level and materia caps and whatnot? I think they should go for it.
 

Sunlight

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Apr 22, 2019
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2 months after release Rebirth is still on top 20 of Japanese chart now. It has much different leg from previous FF series.
 
ScionN7

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vio55555 said:
At this point I doubt they reduce the budget significantly for Part 3.

They know that the trilogy pack will be a long-term 15-20 year horizon seller (with remasters and such).

FFX/FFX-2 HD Remaster has sold 7 million packs now. Even if the 3rd part doesn't sell that well on its own, trilogy packs will likely sell at a very high rate across all platforms and I can see a future announcement in 10 or 20 years of trilogy packs (including remasters) hitting 10+ million.

So they still have to think long-term here and make sure that the 3rd game is as good as possible.
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I'm not gonna pretend to understand how development works, so I don't know if it's already too far in development for them to start ordering budget cuts, but the situation with Rebirth does seem pretty dire. The fact that they didn't mention how much it sold seems pretty damning. If this doesn't negatively Part 3's development in any way, I'd be surprised.
 
Synohan

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Oct 25, 2017
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They cancelled projects and gut their AA output to focus on big projects, quality control, and mainline games. Doing that and following up by goofing with the budget of a mainline FF title that's the conclusion of a remake of your most beloved game, would be a choice.
 

vio55555

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Apr 11, 2024
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Lockheartilly9799 said:
Do you think it's possible for next gen consoles if they re-work the trilogy to fit one game with level and materia caps and whatnot? I think they should go for it.
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I don't see the budget being there for that kind of thing; some kind of trilogy pack remasters make sense to get it available on all platforms in an evergreen version that can sell over many years though.

ScionN7 said:
I'm not gonna pretend to understand how development works, so I don't know if it's already too far in development for them to start ordering budget cuts, but the situation with Rebirth does seem pretty dire. The fact that they didn't mention how much it sold seems pretty damning. If this doesn't negatively Part 3's development in any way, I'd be surprised.
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There's likely to be cuts at the margins in some fashion, but I think that pushing a portion of the budgets of these games towards multi-platform efforts is also a realistic factor to weigh here. So even if there's no overall budget cuts technically there could be shifts ahead.

Like 4 years ago, I don't think anybody knew how important Switch 2 would be and now we're potentially in a situation where a game just won't sell anywhere near its potential in Japan if it's not on Switch 2 in 2025 and beyond.

I think they should still try to aim to get FF7 part 3 as a PS5/Pro title by 2028 and not as a PS6 title (they can put out a trilogy pack as an HD remaster for PS6 and the rest in 2030 or something), but they likely do need to start considering that they need very high quality Switch 2, PC, and even Xbox ports in the future as close to launch as possible and that's millions of dollars in diverted budgets.
 
Nkcell

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Jun 24, 2020
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Linus815 said:
FF15: 5 million in 1 day
FF7 Remake: 3.5 million in 3 days
FF16: 3 million in a week
FF7 Rebirth: ?? (probably ~2.5 million in 2 months?)

The brand is literally shrinking realtime despite the quality of the titles being on the up. It's not just Rebirth, its a downward trend. The millions of people on xbox and then on PC that were interested in FF games after 15 were discarded by SE when they decided to make FF7R and 16 Playstation exclusive.***

This is just a shitty way to run your busienss on the long term imo. Theres a reason why every other series seemed to have embraced multiplatform. They're way less affected by the whim of certain markets. Like, Japan is clearly not buying PS5 SW. Why? Fuck knows. But, when your JRPG is PS5 exclusive, thats a pretty big fucking problem. Meanwhile series like Yakuza or Persona can easily counterbalance that by sales on PC, western markets and even Xbox apparently.


***and late ports are not it. Especially when you decide to take EGS excluviity first for 6 months, price it 80 euros, and make it completely barebones. FF15 had the benefit of the doubt at least with releasing with tons of PC exclusive features, a lowered price and Royal edition right off the gate.
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Do you know how much money Sony paid them from exclusively of FF7 remakes part I and II? Because that number on that dollar sum probably would significantly impact whether it's a bad way to conduct your business. Unless you have that information, an analysis is useless.
 
ScionN7

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vio55555 said:
I don't see the budget being there for that kind of thing; some kind of trilogy pack remasters make sense to get it available on all platforms in an evergreen version that can sell over many years though.


There's likely to be cuts at the margins in some fashion, but I think that pushing a portion of the budgets of these games towards multi-platform efforts is also a realistic factor to weigh here. So even if there's no overall budget cuts technically there could be shifts ahead.

Like 4 years ago, I don't think anybody knew how important Switch 2 would be and now we're potentially in a situation where a game just won't sell anywhere near its potential in Japan if it's not on Switch 2 in 2025 and beyond.

I think they should still try to aim to get FF7 part 3 as a PS5/Pro title by 2028 and not as a PS6 title (they can put out a trilogy pack as an HD remaster for PS6 and the rest in 2030 or something), but they likely do need to start considering that they need very high quality Switch 2, PC, and even Xbox ports in the future as close to launch as possible and that's millions of dollars in diverted budgets.
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I can foresee a Trilogy Pack for the Switch 2.
 
Saray

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Nov 26, 2018
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Synohan said:
They cancelled projects and gut their AA output to focus on big projects, quality control, and mainline games. Doing that and following up by goofing with the budget of a mainline FF title that's the conclusion of a remake of your most beloved game, would be a choice.
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"Most beloved game" doesn't mean anything if people are just not interested in that game. SE is not a charity, and things are not looking good for this trilogy, part 3 may sell even less than Rebirth.
 
Tigerfish419

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Harmen said:
I think they should go multiplat (Sony, Nintendo, Steam), go for the fidelity of FFVII remake pt1 (which looks awesome in 4k 60fps on PS5 , but should also scale well to the Switch 2), and market it better.

Also, while the FF fanbase is a mess and hard to gauge, I think the reality is that XVI was just too divisive and the word of mouth is simply not good. And FFVIIReb has the challenge that it is the middle part of a trilogy accross generations. That just does not work anymore with modern gaming.
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They're gonna come to everything Steam, Xbox, Switch and PS
 
Mephissto

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Nkcell said:
Do you know how much money Sony paid them from exclusively of FF7 remakes part I and II? Because that number on that dollar sum probably would significantly impact whether it's a bad way to conduct your business. Unless you have that information, an analysis is useless.
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Not useless at all. Once the audience is small enough (in part due to exclusivity) and we are approaching that area then Sony will pay less money or not even bother at all but the franchise is damaged long term.
 

vio55555

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Apr 11, 2024
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Nkcell said:
Do you know how much money Sony paid them from exclusively of FF7 remakes part I and II? Because that number on that dollar sum probably would significantly impact whether it's a bad way to conduct your business. Unless you have that information, an analysis is useless.
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I think the problem is that any up-front payment in exchange for shrinking/withering parts of the fanbase away is almost always going to be a disastrous choice in the long run. FF is one of those games that has fans everywhere because of its history over the past 20 years. There's tons of people that own FF1-X/X-2 on Switch or PC or Xbox (as well as PS of course) due to the wide availability of ports and shifts of gamers across platforms since the 90s-00s. FF's fanbase is probably as spread out as any major AAA franchise.

Yes, Sony likely did help cover enough of the development budget of 16 and 7 Remake/Rebirth to cover any foregone sales on those titles, but what about the damage to future titles?

How many young people in Japan care about FF when the newest titles are not on Switch?

Obviously this will be rectified going forwards, but there's still been damage done (the Epic exclusivity delaying Steam Remake sales was another foolish thing to do with 2 more games to sell, can't afford any potential lost time for sales in this situation).

The good news is this is always fixable, FF has had ups and downs like any series, but I think a focus on multi-platform releases and generating as much momentum as possible for the newest titles is important.

FF17 in my opinion should absolutely be out on PC and Xbox at the same time as PS, and it should have a Switch 2 port as reasonably timed as possible.
 
Chumunga64

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this reminds me of Tabata being gung ho on XV's PC release and even wanting to have mod tools before he left

and after that we got Kingdom Hearts on fucking epic games store lmao
 

Holundrian

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Oct 25, 2017
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who would have thought that nostalgia for a 23 year old game that didn't do a whole lot of successfully attracting new fans in that time period can only take you so far with its appeal to a new generation of players.
 
ScionN7

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Beelzebufo said:
I remember a time when a remake of FFVII seemed like it'd be the biggest release of all time
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Vaenyr said:
Yeah, it was often seen as the "in case of emergency break glass" situation.
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It could've been, but the way they went about it was self sabotaging:
  • Releasing them as an exclusive to one platform.
  • Splitting them up into multiple parts.
  • Making them some sort of Sequel/Remake hybrid, which drove away people who wanted a faithful remake.
  • Not striking while the iron was hot. This honestly should've been done during the 7th Console gen when Final Fantasy still had a very large following.
I mean maybe each one of these points individually on their own wouldn't have done a lot of damage to potential sales. But all of these points combined?
 
Johnny Blaze

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Beelzebufo said:
I remember a time when a remake of FFVII seemed like it'd be the biggest release of all time
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And Remake did well, but you cannot squeeze the nostalgia by splitting it up over a decade long period.

Lots of people got their nostalgia rush satisfied with the first game and moved on. The high has waned off.

Just take any other gaming IP which would get a similar nostalgia hype, and imagine its split into multiple games instead of one, and released every 4 years or so.
 
Lobster Roll

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Vaenyr said:
Yeah, it was often seen as the "in case of emergency break glass" situation.
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If they released it as a multi-platform, one-and-done game it probably would have been that for them. In the end they chose episodic and spanning across multiple generations and going for the level of graphics & detail that they wanted. Who really knows if the juice was the worth the squeeze in the long run?
 

vio55555

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Beelzebufo said:
I remember a time when a remake of FFVII seemed like it'd be the biggest release of all time
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Vaenyr said:
Yeah, it was often seen as the "in case of emergency break glass" situation.
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As a fan of FF7 I can appreciate what they tried to do here, but for a 40 year series of iterative titles with very few sequels across 14 mainline titles..., I really have to wonder if the SE brass understood their audience. Ignoring the exclusivity issues:

Just glancing at Steam/PS/Xbox achievements for older FFs would show that most players don't finish FF games. Most sit around 30-50% completion rates. FF7 Remake peaked over 50% during its PS5 sales window but that's down to 35% with it on PS+. FF7 Remake on Steam is at 30% after near 2 years of release.

Historically that makes sense, any long narrative game is going to suffer attrition. For most gamers, the excitement of starting the RPG journey, meeting the characters, experiencing the freshness of a new world and relationships, learning the combat systems, that's all the fun. That works for 15-20 hours or perhaps up to 30, but eventually that's it. You end up in a more tedious grind/repetition of battles/mini-games later in the story and most players don't finish the journey.

They know that's how their audience experiences the games right?

There's never going to be a market for a 200-300 hour mainline FF experience except among a much smaller core of players that are the superfans.
 
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Beelzebufo

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ScionN7 said:
It could've been, but the way they went about it was self sabotaging:
  • Releasing them as an exclusive to one platform.
  • Splitting them up into multiple parts.
  • Making them some sort of Sequel/Remake hybrid, which drove away people who wanted a faithful remake.
  • Not striking while the iron was hot. This honestly should've been done during the 7th Console gen when Final Fantasy still had a very large following.
I mean maybe each one of these points individually on their own wouldn't have done a lot of damage to potential sales. But all of these points combined?
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In all fairness, I'm sure Remake still sold way more copies than it would have back then. It just didn't have quite the "impact" because the gaming "community" has grown and changed so, so much from the PS3/360 era.

Rebirth not selling as well I guess isn't really surprising if I think about it. As another poster said above, you can really only sell that idea and get maximum interest once.
 
Kaworu

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Oct 28, 2017
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Strings said:
Not sure in this instance, but Sega juices their franchise sales numbers with F2P mobile downloads (not mentioned when they make celebratory milestone announcements, but there in their financial reports), so it's not inconceivable they'd add subscription downloads too. Examples include Sonic being reported at 1.6b sales (lol) and SMT at 19m (it's ~8.5-9m without the mobile game). We know this because we have their numbers immediately before it released:
www.gematsu.com

Persona series sales top 8.5 million, Megami Tensei series sales top 7.2 million

Total sales for the Persona series have topped 8.5 million units, and total sales for the Megami Tensei series have topped 7.2 million units, Sega’s 2017 annual report reveals.
www.gematsu.com www.gematsu.com

And then from last year for comparison:

cinQEyE.png
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Indeed, they used that kind of wording often in the past, but in the reports it always clearly says, sold, played, etc. The Persona 2.39 million value was sold.
 
Silverhand

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The more I play Rebirth the more convinced I am that splitting 7 into 3 games and padding the absolute hell out of them (see Rebirth mini games and map icons OMFG) was a huge ass mistake.
 

vio55555

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Silverhand said:
The more I play Rebirth the more convinced I am that splitting 7 into 3 games and padding the absolute hell out of them (see Rebirth mini games and map icons OMFG) was a huge ass mistake.
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The biggest problem that I always get back to is just that it kills any momentum to get to the 3rd game.

Even as somebody that believes that the trilogy packs will sell well into the future, there's still the issue of how many people are going to actually play the 3rd game.

I wouldn't be surprised if in 20 years we look back and less than 5-10% of trilogy buyers ever try the 3rd game. Which is just a shame for how much time/effort is being put into this project...
 
Hero

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vio55555 said:
As a fan of FF7 I can appreciate what they tried to do here, but for a 40 year series of iterative titles with very few sequels across 14 mainline titles..., I really have to wonder if the SE brass understood their audience. Ignoring the exclusivity issues:

Just glancing at Steam/PS/Xbox achievements for older FFs would show that most players don't finish FF games. Most sit around 30-50% completion rates. FF7 Remake peaked over 50% during its PS5 sales window but that's down to 35% with it on PS+. FF7 Remake on Steam is at 30% after near 2 years of release.

Historically that makes sense, any long narrative game is going to suffer attrition. For most gamers, the excitement of starting the RPG journey, meeting the characters, experiencing the freshness of a new world and relationships, learning the combat systems, that's all the fun. That works for 15-20 hours or perhaps up to 30, but eventually that's it. You end up in a more tedious grind/repetition of battles/mini-games later in the story and most players don't finish the journey.

They know that's how their audience experiences the games right?

There's never going to be a market for a 200-300 hour mainline FF experience except among a much smaller core of players that are the superfans.
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You are putting way too much stock into completion percentages and not enough into the fact that Rebirth (and XVI) launching as PS5 exclusives were harmful to both games. Not even Sony was releasing their games as PS5 exclusives until Spider-Man 2 and that's one of the most popular IP in the world.
 
Cappy

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Silverhand said:
The more I play Rebirth the more convinced I am that splitting 7 into 3 games and padding the absolute hell out of them (see Rebirth mini games and map icons OMFG) was a huge ass mistake.
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Yeah, I think some people have pointed out some real key issues with the FF7 trilogy specifically -- across two different console generations, being "fulfilled" with Remake (covering the most iconic area of FF7), straying from a strict remake of the story, the length of these games (Midgar going from 3-5 hours stretched out to 50) spread across multiple entries. I think there's a lot of sense as to why they're losing people as opposed to gaining them from Remake to Rebirth. Separately, I think that's why it's so important to make sure to cast a wide net to make sure you grab as many of these fans as you can so you can see a high playerbase engaging with it. Like, I don't know if the third part will or won't be exclusive to PS5, but it's hard not to see another decrease again from here for the reasons above.
 

vio55555

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Hero said:
You are putting way too much stock into completion percentages and not enough into the fact that Rebirth (and XVI) launching as PS5 exclusives were harmful to both games. Not even Sony was releasing their games as PS5 exclusives until Spider-Man 2 and that's one of the most popular IP in the world.
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It matters because this is one giant story stretched over 3 games, and it does not have clean ending/beginning points to each game.

There is no way for anybody to jump into this at Rebirth or the 3rd game without having played the earlier ones. So the fact that most players don't finish any of the games is a huge problem. That's the whole reason why FF or DQ or Zelda is an iterative series of mainline games with no continuity. It's why the series work. You can pick it up at any point without having played other games.

I firmly believe that the narrative issues here are as important as the exclusivity issue. There's just no way we can separate that when every long narrative game sequel suffers declines.

Even sequels with *clean narrative conclusions to earlier games* suffer from attrition on the same console: Ocarina of Time to Majora's Mask (50% decline happened to both the original and HD versions), FFX to FFX-2, FF13 to FF13-2 to Lightning Returns. TotK is going to suffer a fair bit of attrition from BotW.

Shouldn't we factor in that a trilogy of games without clean break points (like all those mentioned above) will have even worse attrition?

It's why I repeatedly bring up that I'm not seeing where the players for the 3rd game are supposed to come from... the universe of people that will have completed both Rebirth and Remake is not going to be a big number.
 
Silverhand

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I wonder if/when they make a DLC for Rebirth it will add a "Directors Cut" mode that shaves down all the icons and mini games. Like all the Chadley stuff is just done when you enter an area or something. Or just have an auto complete option anytime you start a mini game. Map towers already activate etc.
 
Rutger

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Mephissto said:
That game would be like 500 GB, lol.
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It shouldn't be too bad, they have to bring back Midgar and keep the Rebirth zones for part 3, so it wouldn't take much more space for the world in theory.

Cutscenes and audio would add up fast though.

Beelzebufo said:
I remember a time when a remake of FFVII seemed like it'd be the biggest release of all time
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Everyone, including SE, bought a little too much into FFVII fans hype and believed it was a bigger deal than it actually is. It just isn't enough to support a three part reimagining, especially locked on a single console.
 
Mephissto

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Silverhand said:
The more I play Rebirth the more convinced I am that splitting 7 into 3 games and padding the absolute hell out of them (see Rebirth mini games and map icons OMFG) was a huge ass mistake.
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I don't think so at all. Given that it is the most critically acclaimed single player FF in over 20 years.

If anything I would even it is the other way around and the mostly linear nature of Remake and XVI is partly what made these games more divisive / less liked.
 
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FakePlasticTree

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Silverhand said:
The more I play Rebirth the more convinced I am that splitting 7 into 3 games and padding the absolute hell out of them (see Rebirth mini games and map icons OMFG) was a huge ass mistake.
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It's the best Final Fantasy in a long time, and Kitase said if they had remade it into one game so much content would have been cut. People would most likely not have liked that.

www.pushsquare.com

Square Enix Explains Decision to Split Final Fantasy VII Remake Into Multiple Games

It was immersion, or cut content
www.pushsquare.com www.pushsquare.com
In Kitase's own words: "At the beginning of the project we had two directions we could go. The first was to make the project with the highest possible level of graphics, visual quality and detail, and not remove anything that fans wanted to see. Instead, it would expand upon the original game, to make it something even more immersive."

"The other option was to include the entire scope of the original game in a single release. But in order to make that work as a modern game, we wouldn't be able to go for the highest visual quality and we'd also have to cut back on areas and scenes from the original."

Kitase continues: "Essentially, to make a single release viable the resulting game would have ended up being a digest of the original story, and we didn't think that fans would be pleased with that."
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Holundrian

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Oct 25, 2017
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16 got new younger age trending fans in isn't that something that was recently admitted? Seems weird how people are just consistently lying about the info around this game. For the record I probably enjoyed Rebirth more but I also don't feel the need to literally fabricate misinformation.
As far as we can tell 16 performed okay(iirc from Square's statements themselves) and did appeal to more people despite similar circumstances as Rebirth release wise.

How that factors into HD games under performing *shrug* who knows. I guess you could always make the argument that Square is doing a MS HiFi rush :-x.
 
Clippy

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Toth said:
his interpretation has been called into question though. It's likely this is where that huge deduction Because of cancelled projects was allocated.
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Who's doing the questioning? It's quite clear when reading the results that he's right, cancelled projects have nothing to do with the division's losses. Consolidated profits down due to abandonment losses, but digital entertainment achieved lowest profits in years due to development cost amortization (not losses), with HD outright losing money.
 
MechaX

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Mephissto said:
I don't think so at all. Given that it is the most critically acclaimed single player FF in over 20 years.
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I mean, this is technically incorrect but I'll give you that since XII is only 18 years removed.

But it's not like a lot of the recent single player entries were *that* much less critically acclaimed in comparison; SE essentially got hit with the trade of several millions in sales for 5 extra metacritic points
 
Risev

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Sunlight said:
One week, not two.

Famitsu has two charts for each week.
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Yeah I honestly am confused by the last Famitsu chart because the headline says the data is taken across 2 weeks while the actual listing shows the data as taken within the last week while also skipping the week before. Either way it remains to be seen how well it does because as I said, it has yet to match 16's initial week of sales which would have sounded unbelievable before the game released
 
Master_Funk

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Holundrian said:
16 got new younger age trending fans in isn't that something that was recently admitted? Seems weird how people are just consistently lying about the info around this game. For the record I probably enjoyed Rebirth more but I also don't feel the need to literally fabricate misinformation.
As far as we can tell 16 performed okay(iirc from Square's statements themselves) and did appeal to more people despite similar circumstances as Rebirth release wise.

How that factors into HD games under performing *shrug* who knows.
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Yeah I dont get grouping them togetther as a sign of FF doing poorly. in SQEX own words, 16 met sales expectation and seems an overall success in terms of sales and exposing FF to younger fans.

Whereas we have heard NOTHING from SQEX regarding rebirth and based on what we can gather, it sounds like it was a commercial failure.
 
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