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Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,099
I mean, this is technically incorrect but I'll give you that since XII is only 18 years removed.

But it's not like a lot of the recent single player entries were *that* much less critically acclaimed in comparison; SE essentially got hit with the trade of several millions in sales for 5 extra metacritic points

People around here act like XV was the worst piece of trash because of how unfinished it was and that managed an 81. If you're going to downplay 5 points as insignificant then you're saying XVI is basically the same as XV since it managed an 87 and that's a 6 point difference.

Either way it's important to show what critics are receptive to in order to help shape future direction. Clearly Rebirth hit the mark in a way the franchise has not managed since XII was released.
 

Mephissto

Member
Mar 8, 2024
613
I mean, this is technically incorrect but I'll give you that since XII is only 18 years removed.

But it's not like a lot of the recent single player entries were *that* much less critically acclaimed in comparison; SE essentially got hit with the trade of several millions in sales for 5 extra metacritic points

Ah, right. Rebirth dropped from 93 to 92, I forgot but still. (XII fan reception Was also pretty bad).

And 5 points is a lot in the 90+ range. The ratings run on a bell curve and significantly more games achieve a 87 or so than 90+.

The sales would have been even worse without the critical acclaim and no matter what they did really Rebirth was kinda set up to sell less due to circumstances discussed over and over in this thread.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,692
I mean, this is technically incorrect but I'll give you that since XII is only 18 years removed.

But it's not like a lot of the recent single player entries were *that* much less critically acclaimed in comparison; SE essentially got hit with the trade of several millions in sales for 5 extra metacritic points

Yeah, people love to play up a 90+ score, because to be fair it is fairly hard to get.


But it really doesn't matter. Those 5 points don't change the results.
 

chocolate

Member
Feb 28, 2018
3,799
As a fan of FF7 I can appreciate what they tried to do here, but for a 40 year series of iterative titles with very few sequels across 14 mainline titles..., I really have to wonder if the SE brass understood their audience.

They clearly did not. They thought they did, but I don't think they tried all that hard to understand their audience to begin with because if they did, a remake/sequel trilogy with diminishing returns situation wouldn't even be happening right now.

Just from how they've been treating the franchise over the years, my personal summation of SquareEnix when it comes to this series can be summed up in one word: overconfidence. They think it's still the 90's when this series was at the height of its popularity.

They think they can do whatever they want, and people will magically flock to them.

Just reading the interviews about this game, and learning that this was all about what they wanted to do, while completely ignoring what the fans were heavily demanding all these years that was loud enough to green light the project to begin with...

It became about them, and not their audience.

It's commonplace to hear that SquareEnix are out of touch, and lagging behind competitors. It's a common sentiment nowadays. So yeah... the SE brass not only do not understand their audience, they don't understand the marketplace either.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,492
Yeah I dont get grouping them togetther as a sign of FF doing poorly. in SQEX own words, 16 met sales expectation and seems an overall success in terms of sales and exposing FF to younger fans.

Whereas we have heard NOTHING from SQEX regarding rebirth and based on what we can gather, it sounds like it was a commercial failure.
It's even more this line of thinking where apparently 16 was so divisive it made rebirth sales decline is some absolute fanfic shit. Like 16 apparently was so divisive not even the stronger critical reception of Rebirth could shield it from decline xD. Like jesus. It's reading takes like that, that just make me wanna be as outlandish for the fun of it.
 

Mephissto

Member
Mar 8, 2024
613
Yeah I dont get grouping them togetther as a sign of FF doing poorly. in SQEX own words, 16 met sales expectation and seems an overall success in terms of sales and exposing FF to younger fans.

Whereas we have heard NOTHING from SQEX regarding rebirth and based on what we can gather, it sounds like it was a commercial failure.


How can you not see it as a sign of FF doing poorly when every entry is selling worse than the last one?

XV>Remake>XVI>Rebirth
 

Eien1no1Yami

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,331
I wonder if/when they make a DLC for Rebirth it will add a "Directors Cut" mode that shaves down all the icons and mini games. Like all the Chadley stuff is just done when you enter an area or something. Or just have an auto complete option anytime you start a mini game. Map towers already activate etc.
There's no need for that because even in NG the bare minimum you are required to play, let alone win
is cut down to 3-4 minigames.
You can even complete Costa del Sol by just playing 3 quick Queens Blood puzzles that don't even require a deck.
Same thing in the Corel prison.
Gold Saucer everything is optional.
ONly required stuff that you also have to win is the first area chocobo catching , the dolphin minigame and chocobo race.
 
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dglavimans

Member
Nov 13, 2019
8,020
People around here act like XV was the worst piece of trash because of how unfinished it was and that managed an 81. If you're going to downplay 5 points as insignificant then you're saying XVI is basically the same as XV since it managed an 87 and that's a 6 point difference.

Either way it's important to show what critics are receptive to in order to help shape future direction. Clearly Rebirth hit the mark in a way the franchise has not managed since XII was released.
Juhp. We can't pick and choose when we want

Seems like there aren't any numbers coming today which kinda makes the debate going in circles tho? :p Hope for everyone we get some more concrete stuff
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,692
How can you not see it as a sign of FF doing poorly when every entry is selling worse than the last one?

XV>Remake>XVI>Rebirth

I don't think XVI reaching XV's 5 mil launch would have been too hard if it had PC at launch. Console/PC split is around 50/50 now so getting an extra 2 mil shouldn't have been too crazy.

I would assume Rebirth would have gotten the same percentage boost, but it being a sequel is an added barrier that would still hold it back.
 

Toth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,149
How can you not see it as a sign of FF doing poorly when every entry is selling worse than the last one?

XV>Remake>XVI>Rebirth

the trend being all three games on one platform, and in the case of XV and XVI, one system that is not living up to expectations, especially in Japan, is the factor here. XVII will be mutiplatform and will sell just fine.

edit: and what Rutgers said: FFXVI is tailored made for a PC release, especially the scoreboard aspect. Rebirth is going to have a bigger barrier.
 

texhnolyze

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,440
Indonesia
They clearly did not. They thought they did, but I don't think they tried all that hard to understand their audience to begin with because if they did, a remake/sequel trilogy with diminishing returns situation wouldn't even be happening right now.

Just from how they've been treating the franchise over the years, my personal summation of SquareEnix when it comes to this series can be summed up in one word: overconfidence. They think it's still the 90's when this series was at the height of its popularity.

They think they can do whatever they want, and people will magically flock to them.

Just reading the interviews about this game, and learning that this was all about what they wanted to do, while completely ignoring what the fans were heavily demanding all these years that was loud enough to green light the project to begin with...

It became about them, and not their audience.

It's commonplace to hear that SquareEnix are out of touch, and lagging behind competitors. It's a common sentiment nowadays. So yeah... the SE brass not only do not understand their audience, they don't understand the marketplace either.
SE is known for their pride so I don't think you missed the mark here.
 

Mephissto

Member
Mar 8, 2024
613
I don't think XVI reaching XV's 5 mil launch would have been too hard if it had PC at launch. Console/PC split is around 50/50 now so getting an extra 2 mil shouldn't have been too crazy.

I would assume Rebirth would have gotten the same percentage boost, but it being a sequel is an added barrier that would still hold it back.

I agree but obviously if you have 4 games in selling less and less with each entry DOES indicate a problem with the franchise. Be it exclusivity, the inconsistent gameplay styles between games or whatever.

the trend being all three games on one platform, and in the case of XV and XVI, one system that is not living up to expectations, especially in Japan, is the factor here. XVII will be mutiplatform and will sell just fine.

edit: and what Rutgers said: FFXVI is tailored made for a PC release, especially the scoreboard aspect. Rebirth is going to have a bigger barrier.

I agree with you guys. All I am saying is that the quality is not neccessarily the deciding factor here but outside factors like platform exclusivity etc. and in the case of Rebirth there is even more baggage due to being a sequel.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,692
I agree but obviously if you have 4 games in selling less and less with each entry DOES indicate a problem with the franchise. Be it exclusivity, the inconsistent gameplay styles between games or whatever.

It's the console exclusivity. Luckily they're changing that(and hopefully they don't obsess too much about graphics and can include the Switch 2).

I still can't agree that the gameplay changes are a problem. Sales declined from VII > VIII > IX as well. Some decline is fine, it would be unreasonable to expect every game to hit or surpass a recent peak, and I think multiplatform will go a long way to keep the series within a reasonable range of sales.
 

Mephissto

Member
Mar 8, 2024
613
It's the console exclusivity. Luckily they're changing that(and hopefully they don't obsess too much about graphics and can include the Switch 2).

I still can't agree that the gameplay changes are a problem. Sales declined from VII > VIII > IX as well. Some decline is fine, it would be unreasonable to expect every game to hit or surpass a recent peak, and I think multiplatform will go a long way to keep the series within a reasonable range of sales.

Well, maybe you are right. I don't know. I just see Elden Ring, BOTW etc. making it big by changing their game design.

Not that I am necessarily in favor of them changing it up much though I am open to most of their creative visions. Perhaps a "breakout hit" can't even be achieved by a story heavy JRPG.

But yes, less exclusivity will certainly help. I just hope this news wont impact the quality of the upcoming releases too much.
 

night814

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,100
Pennsylvania
JRPGs declining in videogame market share from their 90s-00s glory days, while anime has increased in TV watching market share in 2010s-2020s is strange.
Shows are easier to get in too(can just sit back and watch) and the barrier for entry is much smaller(whether you buy official blu rays or watch on a service). Games take much more focus and cost way more money if you need a console to play it.
 

hollowpoop

Member
Apr 14, 2024
5
I don't think so at all. Given that it is the most critically acclaimed single player FF in over 20 years.

If anything I would even it is the other way around and the mostly linear nature of Remake and XVI is partly what made these games more divisive / less liked.
Critically acclaimed by who? The people who were immune to the flaws of Remake and actually stuck around thus inflating its ratings? There's some serious survivorship bias in the scores Rebirth has, because everything Remake did wrong (poor pacing, padding, and questionable story changes) is still front and centre. The games AREN'T bad, but they are far from the masterpieces people claim them to be, evidenced by the dropoff for Rebirth, a d you'd need to be that good to keep people around for 10 years
 

BrandoBoySP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,191
People around here act like XV was the worst piece of trash because of how unfinished it was and that managed an 81. If you're going to downplay 5 points as insignificant then you're saying XVI is basically the same as XV since it managed an 87 and that's a 6 point difference.

Either way it's important to show what critics are receptive to in order to help shape future direction. Clearly Rebirth hit the mark in a way the franchise has not managed since XII was released.

I think it's important for people to realize that the mainline games have been pretty well-received critically overall even with their flaws (FFXV got a lot of good critical buzz around release despite its issues!), not to mention that there's a bit of a cycle with the series. Every new game is the worst thing ever, a sign of doom for the series, until we get a new release or two and then it's all rose-colored glasses. Obviously I don't know if it's the specific same fans, but I remember how much a lot of fans hated FFXIII on release, yet I see a lot more appreciation for it nowadays, as an example.

I do have a hard time thinking the series is on a decline overall, tbh. The series (and more importantly, the entire industry) was in a very different place back in the PS1 days, from how we interact with stories in gaming to our standards of storytelling and the differences that things like voice acting bring in. Rebirth may be selling less, but that's to be expected: it's a PS5 exclusive when the last game was on PS4 and PC, which have a way larger install base. It's a direct sequel, so people might either wait for the trilogy to be done or decide there's too big a barrier to entry (or they didn't like Remake). But with critics and with player ratings, Rebirth got a lot of positive reception. Sales aren't everything.

Critically acclaimed by who? The people who were immune to the flaws of Remake and actually stuck around thus inflating its ratings? There's some serious survivorship bias in the scores Rebirth has, because everything Remake did wrong (poor pacing, padding, and questionable story changes) is still front and centre. The games AREN'T bad, but they are far from the masterpieces people claim them to be, evidenced by the dropoff for Rebirth, a d you'd need to be that good to keep people around for 10 years

Uh, I'm so sorry if this sounds rude, but it's literally critically acclaimed. Like, by critics. That's what the phrase means: acclaimed by people who critique media professionally. There's some leeway - maybe its flaws hamper the experience way more for you than others! - but there's a reason Rebirth has such high ratings, whether it's OpenCritic or MetaCritic or what-have-you. Doesn't mean it's perfect (hell, a lot of the glowing reviews do mention the pacing issues, for instance), but from large gaming-specific outlets (IGN and Destructoid) to general media criticism (Guardian or Washington Post) and smaller, more discerning critics (Jimquisition, Paste), it's been well-received.

Gaming is one of those things where yes, sales are important a lot of the time, but they're not the only metric to gauge something's success. If they were, Square would have completely folded after The Spirits Within.
 
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Mephissto

Member
Mar 8, 2024
613
Critically acclaimed by who? The people who were immune to the flaws of Remake and actually stuck around thus inflating its ratings? There's some serious survivorship bias in the scores Rebirth has, because everything Remake did wrong (poor pacing, padding, and questionable story changes) is still front and centre. The games AREN'T bad, but they are far from the masterpieces people claim them to be, evidenced by the dropoff for Rebirth, a d you'd need to be that good to keep people around for 10 years

According to the 148 or so critics who played and rated the game.

If we applied your logic then XIII-3 would be the best rated game of the trilogy which is clearl not the case. If we were only going by fan reception I could kinda follow the point but even then. Sequels don't automatically rate better than the previous game.

I agree though that a certain sales dropoff likely comes from people who didn't enjoy Remake as much. Rebirth however is a much better game and think improved in all the areas you mentioned.
 
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Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,692
Critically acclaimed by who? The people who were immune to the flaws of Remake and actually stuck around thus inflating its ratings? There's some serious survivorship bias in the scores Rebirth has, because everything Remake did wrong (poor pacing, padding, and questionable story changes) is still front and centre. The games AREN'T bad, but they are far from the masterpieces people claim them to be, evidenced by the dropoff for Rebirth, a d you'd need to be that good to keep people around for 10 years

This is the same argument people will use to discredit FFXIV's scores.
I don't agree with it there, and I don't agree with it here. Fans can often be more critical about smaller things so it isn't a free high score, the reality is just that Rebirth is an overall better version of what many liked in Remake.
 

DesVoeux

Member
Dec 16, 2023
248
I think the console exclusivity has certainly hurt FF sales, but for Rebirth in particular I think it's a much bigger problem that the Remake trilogy is just not very accessible to anyone but FFVII die-hards. A game's Metacritic score is irrelevant if the larger audience is completely uninterested. From an artistic standpoint, Remake may very well be a triumph. From a business standpoint, there is no sugarcoating that this is the only FF game I know of that SE hasn't released any sales numbers for. No way SE could figure out how to spin it. Pretty clear to me that they would have been better off (again, from a business standpoint) making a safer, less expensive, and more traditional remake rather than an epic reimagining split into three parts.
 

Majunior

Member
Jun 20, 2019
1,275
I think it's important for people to realize that the mainline games have been pretty well-received critically overall even with their flaws (FFXV got a lot of good critical buzz around release despite its issues!), not to mention that there's a bit of a cycle with the series. Every new game is the worst thing ever, a sign of doom for the series, until we get a new release or two and then it's all rose-colored glasses. Obviously I don't know if it's the specific same fans, but I remember how much a lot of fans hated FFXIII on release, yet I see a lot more appreciation for it nowadays, as an example.
I personally think that the level of contempt for stuff like XIII and XV is on a different level compared to other games. Also "good" in terms of critic scores is situation dependent.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,489
I'll maintain that:

1) XV and XIII's score of 81 and 83 ARE bad for the series.

2) the difference between low 80s and high 80s like Remake and XVI is significant, as is the different between high 80s and 92 that Rebirth is.

It's all about context - the series used to score in 90s, and relative to that, low 80s is a *massive* drop.
 

night814

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,100
Pennsylvania
This is the same argument people will use to discredit FFXIV's scores.
I don't agree with it there, and I don't agree with it here. Fans can often be more critical about smaller things so it isn't a free high score, the reality is just that Rebirth is an overall better version of what many liked in Remake.
It's no doubt better imo but it still has a lot of remakes baggage. If people were already turned off or fulfilled by remake those people wouldn't have much reason to continue the trilogy even if every critic loved it.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,099
Critically acclaimed by who? The people who were immune to the flaws of Remake and actually stuck around thus inflating its ratings? There's some serious survivorship bias in the scores Rebirth has, because everything Remake did wrong (poor pacing, padding, and questionable story changes) is still front and centre. The games AREN'T bad, but they are far from the masterpieces people claim them to be, evidenced by the dropoff for Rebirth, a d you'd need to be that good to keep people around for 10 years

Critically acclaimed by the entire world basically or are you just sticking your head in the sand when it comes to Metacritic and/or OpenCritic?

I think it's important for people to realize that the mainline games have been pretty well-received critically overall even with their flaws (FFXV got a lot of good critical buzz around release despite its issues!), not to mention that there's a bit of a cycle with the series. Every new game is the worst thing ever, a sign of doom for the series, until we get a new release or two and then it's all rose-colored glasses. Obviously I don't know if it's the specific same fans, but I remember how much a lot of fans hated FFXIII on release, yet I see a lot more appreciation for it nowadays, as an example.

As a Zelda fan as well I can definitely understand it to a degree especially after people went from hating Toon Link/WW to loving it after TP and beyond.

I think people are definitely more passionate about things they dislike in the moment than down the line.

Basically this:

bnUivJ4.jpeg
 

BrandoBoySP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,191
I personally think that the level of contempt for stuff like XIII and XV is on a different level compared to other games. Also "good" in terms of critic scores is situation dependent.

XIII and XV definitely get a lot more contempt than other entries, yeah. I wonder how much of it is just 'cuz they're more recent. Like, VIII used to get some of the same contempt, but it's like 25 years old now, so it's not nearly as relevant comparatively.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,517
I think the console exclusivity has certainly hurt FF sales, but for Rebirth in particular I think it's a much bigger problem that the Remake trilogy is just not very accessible to anyone but FFVII die-hards. A game's Metacritic score is irrelevant if the larger audience is completely uninterested. From an artistic standpoint, Remake may very well be a triumph. From a business standpoint, there is no sugarcoating that this is the only FF game I know of that SE hasn't released any sales numbers for. No way SE could figure out how to spin it. Pretty clear to me that they would have been better off (again, from a business standpoint) making a safer, less expensive, and more traditional remake rather than an epic reimagining split into three parts.

The thing is, exclusivity was a problem even for the people who bought FFVII Remake.
5 million (at least) of these sales were on PS4. Close to 1 million on PC. Over a million on PS5.
Making it PS5 exclusive meant the only people who could play it are these who had a PS5. Not everyone who had the game on PS4 bought a PS5. Nor those who bought it on PC.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,099
The thing is, exclusivity was a problem even for the people who bought FFVII Remake.
5 million (at least) of these sales were on PS4. Close to 1 million on PC. Over a million on PS5.
Making it PS5 exclusive meant the only people who could play it are these who had a PS5. Not everyone who had the game on PS4 bought a PS5. Nor those who bought it on PC.

This is a large contributor to why Rebirth sales are low (and XVI to a different degree). The combination of PS5 user base being too low and the existing user base consumer purchasing habits are just not good enough to justify the console exclusivity. If both of those games had PS4 ports I think both of those games would be way more successful.
 

samcastor

Member
Apr 21, 2021
2,108
After 7 remake, I was interested to see how the gamble will pay off, but unfortunately, the 7 remake trilogy is going to be a case study on how not do to remakes.
 

Toth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,149
Critically acclaimed by the entire world basically or are you just sticking your head in the sand when it comes to Metacritic and/or OpenCritic?



As a Zelda fan as well I can definitely understand it to a degree especially after people went from hating Toon Link/WW to loving it after TP and beyond.

I think people are definitely more passionate about things they dislike in the moment than down the line.

Basically this:

bnUivJ4.jpeg

having played Rebirth for over 100 hours, I've become more convinced that reviewers were a bit too kind to the game, because they loved the improved battle system, which was already great in remake, and the updated story beats and characters being given more personality. There's a lot of things that hurt Rebirth, however, including the pacing and minigame overload that would have contributed more to a lower score if it was not a FF game or a remake of a classic. Some of the story and location changes were also not that great TBH It's still a 9/10 game but not this masterpiece people were gushing over.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,844
Singapore
This is a large contributor to why Rebirth sales are low (and XVI to a different degree). The combination of PS5 user base being too low and the existing user base consumer purchasing habits are just not good enough to justify the console exclusivity. If both of those games had PS4 ports I think both of those games would be way more successful.
I don't really believe this to be true. We don't see PS4 games selling all that well anymore and similar big AAA titles that are exclusive to PS5 has had no issues selling comparably to similar PS4 games years ago in the same window.

While multiplatform would have helped, ultimately the biggest factor against FFVII Rebirth and FFXVI is that the demand and appetite for these games are lacking.

Square Enix needs to examine what is making the FF brand less and less appealing in an increasingly competitive AAA space. Going multiplatform only mitigates the problem, it doesn't solve it.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,705
I think the console exclusivity has certainly hurt FF sales, but for Rebirth in particular I think it's a much bigger problem that the Remake trilogy is just not very accessible to anyone but FFVII die-hards. A game's Metacritic score is irrelevant if the larger audience is completely uninterested. From an artistic standpoint, Remake may very well be a triumph. From a business standpoint, there is no sugarcoating that this is the only FF game I know of that SE hasn't released any sales numbers for. No way SE could figure out how to spin it. Pretty clear to me that they would have been better off (again, from a business standpoint) making a safer, less expensive, and more traditional remake rather than an epic reimagining split into three parts.
The marketing for the game focused too much on nostalgia. Have they even done a trailer that showcases accolades and scores that the game has received since it's release? They should continue to market the game but doesn't seem like they're doing that.
 

vio55555

Member
Apr 11, 2024
286
They clearly did not. They thought they did, but I don't think they tried all that hard to understand their audience to begin with because if they did, a remake/sequel trilogy with diminishing returns situation wouldn't even be happening right now.

Just from how they've been treating the franchise over the years, my personal summation of SquareEnix when it comes to this series can be summed up in one word: overconfidence. They think it's still the 90's when this series was at the height of its popularity.

They think they can do whatever they want, and people will magically flock to them.

Just reading the interviews about this game, and learning that this was all about what they wanted to do, while completely ignoring what the fans were heavily demanding all these years that was loud enough to green light the project to begin with...

It became about them, and not their audience.

It's commonplace to hear that SquareEnix are out of touch, and lagging behind competitors. It's a common sentiment nowadays. So yeah... the SE brass not only do not understand their audience, they don't understand the marketplace either.
If anything, I hope that all of the major shifts that we've seen in gaming (the success of the Switch, especially software-wise and in Japan) shows them the path forward.

I think the obsession with graphical fidelity has mostly run its course. We've already probably reached the point of diminishing returns at the PS4/Xbox 1 level and the Switch 2 will be above that, closer to the PS4 Pro in all likelihood. Most developers will be aiming to get games onto the Switch 2 because of its expected dominance in Japan and likely expected success worldwide.

And as much as I like the older games and would love remakes of some of them, I'm not sure that remakes are any sort of guarantee for a series like FF. Updated ports/remasters is probably the best way of handling that; reimaginings are controversial and given that 1-6 got Pixel Remaster and X/X-2 already got an HD remaster bundle; I'm not sure there's any others that could justify it to the extent of what 7 has gotten. They've been said to be considering 9 at some capacity, but I'd hope it's a focused remake project of the singular game if that comes to fruition.

Also, this might be more controversial, but I do think that the battle system changing so much since X/X-2 probably is an issue for developing the fanbase or stretching it to newer fans given the lack of consistency. This is obviously very different now from a traditional turn based game, and that makes sense given it's aiming to appeal broadly, but:

I feel like we need a bunch of games in a row with a relatively similar battle system like we saw in the 90s after FF4 (with relatively minor changes across games); that would help with identity; it just feels like the gameplay changes are much more significant from 12 to 16 than at any prior time.

This ties into developing a longer term brand identity for FF that I feel like it's lacked. Back when it was a more traditional turn based RPG, it was the *default* turn based JRPG in the West as well as a top one in Japan. Using a similar battle system for a stretch of games would help restore some level of brand identity so fans would know what they're getting. They could use this Rebirth battle system or whatever version it turns into in the 3rd game, but more consistency with minor changes would help I think.
 
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duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,844
Singapore
The marketing for the game focused too much on nostalgia. Have they even done a trailer that showcases accolades and scores that the game has received since it's release? They should continue to market the game but doesn't seem like they're doing that.
Accolades are overrated. When we are talking about breaking out of the 3-5 million space into the 10+ million space, it's not about accolades or marketing. It's about getting traction with actual players driving buzz about a game and making it a must have. Things like GTA and Elden Ring and Baldur's Gate 3 and Helldivers 2 aren't really marketed into successes, they actually resonate with a wide audience that keeps talking about it until it hits critical mass.

FF's problem is that it doesn't have that traction and they are largely one and done story games that look like movie games of previous generations. Stuff that is out of sync of what the majority of gamers are excited about today. FF to most people is boring.
 

Synohan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,039
The marketing for the game focused too much on nostalgia. Have they even done a trailer that showcases accolades and scores that the game has received since it's release? They should continue to market the game but doesn't seem like they're doing that.
They did an accolades trailer a day after the game released. Since then they've been mainly advertising interviews. A game rating high doesn't seem to turn heads for this franchise though, so I doubt more people seeing high scores would help.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,099
having played Rebirth for over 100 hours, I've become more convinced that reviewers were a bit too kind to the game, because they loved the improved battle system, which was already great in remake, and the updated story beats and characters being given more personality. There's a lot of things that hurt Rebirth, however, including the pacing and minigame overload that would have contributed more to a lower score if it was not a FF game or a remake of a classic. Some of the story and location changes were also not that great TBH It's still a 9/10 game but not this masterpiece people were gushing over.

Ah yes, the IP is propping up the score and if it was called anything else it would have reviewed less favorably. We definitely needed the FF equivalent of the Belda meme on this forum.
Aside from that, no one is saying saying the game is perfect and it obviously has flaws like any other game but that doesn't take away from it. Not a single mixed or negative on Metacritic and on OpenCritic it has a 99% critic recommendation. Not sure what quantifies 'masterpiece' to you if that doesn't.

I don't really believe this to be true. We don't see PS4 games selling all that well anymore and similar big AAA titles that are exclusive to PS5 has had no issues selling comparably to similar PS4 games years ago in the same window.

While multiplatform would have helped, ultimately the biggest factor against FFVII Rebirth and FFXVI is that the demand and appetite for these games are lacking.

Square Enix needs to examine what is making the FF brand less and less appealing in an increasingly competitive AAA space. Going multiplatform only mitigates the problem, it doesn't solve it.

What AAA titles are you referencing that are exclusive to PS5? AFAIK its only Spider-man 2 and that's an entirely different beast. Sony released HFW and GoW:R on PS4 after the whole 'we believe in generations' schtick prior to launch. While PS4 games may not sell well anymore, its definitely important. Last year the best selling game was the banned wizard game and part of that contribution had to have been that it was multi-platform.

I don't disagree that SE needs to re-think what FF needs to be but both of these things can be true. Multi-platform is easier to address and lower hanging fruit than potentially changing up the franchise.
 

Mephissto

Member
Mar 8, 2024
613
They did an accolades trailer a day after the game released. Since then they've been mainly advertising interviews. A game rating high doesn't seem to turn heads for this franchise though, so I doubt more people seeing high scores would help.

I do agree that the marketing has focused too much on nostalgia though and also the TGA Performance while really beautiful is not something that makes the game fly of the shelves.
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,080
Square Enix needs to examine what is making the FF brand less and less appealing in an increasingly competitive AAA space. Going multiplatform only mitigates the problem, it doesn't solve it.
And with them trying to compete in the AAA space, trying to just make FF a AAA action game that was harder and harder to make itself distinct from other AAA games just isn't going to help.

Which, sure, it won them new fans, but it doesn't particularly seem like it did enough to offset all the people they lost.
 

Majunior

Member
Jun 20, 2019
1,275
I'll maintain that:

1) XV and XIII's score of 81 and 83 ARE bad for the series.

2) the difference between low 80s and high 80s like Remake and XVI is significant, as is the different between high 80s and 92 that Rebirth is.

It's all about context - the series used to score in 90s, and relative to that, low 80s is a *massive* drop.
I'm 100% with you there. Let's take GTA for example. If GTA6 scored an 89, that would be absolutely catastrophic because of how high the series normally scores. However, an 89 for a hypothetical Octopath 3 would be fantastic, to the point where you'd see it in several gaming outlets' top JRPGs of alltime .
 

seroun

Banned
Oct 25, 2018
4,519
Square Enix needs to examine what is making the FF brand less and less appealing in an increasingly competitive AAA space. Going multiplatform only mitigates the problem, it doesn't solve it.

This is the issue, ultimately. The more and more time passes at least perosnally the less looking forward to FF I am other than expansions for XIV (which is imo a different thing and is controlled by also different factors). They don't feel like an adventure anymore (again, subjectively!).
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,844
Singapore
What AAA titles are you referencing that are exclusive to PS5? AFAIK its only Spider-man 2 and that's an entirely different beast. Sony released HFW and GoW:R on PS4 after the whole 'we believe in generations' schtick prior to launch. While PS4 games may not sell well anymore, its definitely important. Last year the best selling game was the banned wizard game and part of that contribution had to have been that it was multi-platform.

I don't disagree that SE needs to re-think what FF needs to be but both of these things can be true. Multi-platform is easier to address and lower hanging fruit than potentially changing up the franchise.
We can look at any of the big games even if they are multiplatform, and see that PS5 sales are not severely lacking. Like I said, it does increase sales, but not to the degree that would really pull the FF games we are talking about here out from the sales disappointment it is. Rebirth is selling half of what Remake did. That's abysmal given the critical acclaim. It just shows that while the game is of high quality for what it aims to be, what it aims to be is out of touch with what truly excited gamers today.

If Square Enix is happy spending that much money making these games and selling 5-6 million copies multiplatform, sure, more power to them. But looking at the financials and the losses they made with two of their biggest titles out in one year, it's certainly not going to cut it.
 
having played Rebirth for over 100 hours, I've become more convinced that reviewers were a bit too kind to the game, because they loved the improved battle system, which was already great in remake, and the updated story beats and characters being given more personality. There's a lot of things that hurt Rebirth, however, including the pacing and minigame overload that would have contributed more to a lower score if it was not a FF game or a remake of a classic. Some of the story and location changes were also not that great TBH It's still a 9/10 game but not this masterpiece people were gushing over.
They where way to harsh on the game. Everyone that gave it less than 10/10 gave it a lower score just because of having too much content. It's the main complaint.
 

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
10,487
The minigame stuff is super subjective, IMO the abundance of that stuff adds great flavour to the game.

Could have integrated the card game a bit better into overall progression systems though
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,099
We can look at any of the big games even if they are multiplatform, and see that PS5 sales are not severely lacking. Like I said, it does increase sales, but not to the degree that would really pull the FF games we are talking about here out from the sales disappointment it is. Rebirth is selling half of what Remake did. That's abysmal given the critical acclaim. It just shows that while the game is of high quality for what it aims to be, what it aims to be is out of touch with what truly excited gamers today.

If Square Enix is happy spending that much money making these games and selling 5-6 million copies multiplatform, sure, more power to them. But looking at the financials and the losses they made with two of their biggest titles out in one year, it's certainly not going to cut it.

When even Sony is porting their first party 200 million dollar budgeted and above games to PC I don't know how anyone can have a belief that PS5-only sales are sustainable for ANY company.

Rebirth sales being half of Remake's just kind of proves my point? In Japan the PS5 has been extremely weak and Rebirth's first week and cumulative sales reflect that compared to Remake.

XV wound up selling 10 million copies across PS4/XBO/PC and we don't have any comparable FF game since then. Remake went PS4 exclusive into EGS exclusivity before finally releasing on Steam at full priced and it still managed 7 million units. XVI is PS5 exclusive and there's still no PC release date in sight and that's going to be the same fate for Rebirth.

I don't see how looking at SE's FY23 with their losses on two PS5 exclusive games supports your argument that PS5 exclusivity is not an issue and instead saying they are completely out of touch with what gamers want.
 

dglavimans

Member
Nov 13, 2019
8,020
Anyone with this perspective is just gonna get hit with "but they said it had to be 3 games" to death, but I agree.
I mean, it's always in hindsight easy to say this right

Fact is we don't know how it would have went. Would it have sold better but without the critical acclaim? Would merch sales be more down compared to the constant mill you can milk now?

Sales wise, I think so yes? But brand wise, merch wise we just do not know if 1 game would have been better.

If we don't know these factors, what their future vision is with these 3 games. It's not as cut and dry the '1 game would be better' are thinking imo
 

MoogleMaestro

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,186
JRPGs declining in videogame market share from their 90s-00s glory days, while anime has increased in TV watching market share in 2010s-2020s is strange.

This isn't about JRPGs. Most of those, including Fire Emblem and Xenoblade, are doing better than they ever had in the states. Persona is riding high on a new wave of popularity it never had before.

I think this is solely a Final Fantasy problem. You could argue they have strayed too far from the essence of the series since the 90s.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,844
Singapore
This isn't about JRPGs. Most of those, including Fire Emblem and Xenoblade, are doing better than they ever had in the states. Persona is riding high on a new wave of popularity it never had before.

I think this is solely a Final Fantasy problem. You could argue they have strayed too far from the essence of the series since the 90s.
I think the issue is comparing a floor with a ceiling. Fire Emblem and Xenoblade becoming more popular in the west in comparison with their own previous entries shows growth for those series. Yet in an absolute sense their sales are still far below what FF typically sells.

FF still outsells them, but is dropping in popularity such that it is falling out of the tier it needs to be to be considered a solid success.

A Persona game selling 5 million can be considered amazing for the series. A FF game selling 5 million can be considered a financial loss for the company.

That's the difference. So if we want to really talk about how the ceiling of JRPGs are not declining, we will need to find JRPGs that continue to sell at the level of success we have seen them hit previously. Where are the 8-10 million sellers? Are there any?
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever™
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,753
I think the issue is comparing a floor with a ceiling. Fire Emblem and Xenoblade becoming more popular in the west in comparison with their own previous entries shows growth for those series. Yet in an absolute sense their sales are still far below what FF typically sells.

FF still outsells them, but is dropping in popularity such that it is falling out of the tier it needs to be to be considered a solid success.

A Persona game selling 5 million can be considered amazing for the series. A FF game selling 5 million can be considered a financial loss for the company.

That's the difference. So if we want to really talk about how the ceiling of JRPGs are not declining, we will need to find JRPGs that continue to sell at the level of success we have seen them hit previously. Where are the 8-10 million sellers? Are there any?
Well buckle up for Persona 6, because I'm pretty sure Persona 5 / Royal sold over 7 million.
 
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