Daniel Ahmad (ZhugeEX): Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth is underperforming sales wise. Selling about half of what Remake sold in the same timeframe

filkry · May 13, 2024

I think sticking with formulas for longer and scaling back (to switch 2 spec) would be great. Not trilogies like FF13 but three games on a similar tech stack like 7/8/9 or the recent resident evil games/remakes.

In some ways FF is more of a brand than a game product right now (profitable sectors are mobile games where people buy brand characters, merch, etc) but more frequent releases would keep the brand alive.

Hero · May 13, 2024

DesVoeux said:
To me it's very telling that SE has said they're going to reign in their producers after a fiscal year in which two expensive AAA titles released to underwhelming sales. I don't think SE would greenlight the FF7R trilogy in today's environment, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

I do not doubt for a second that a trilogy remake would not get approved today but again this deal was inked a decade-ish ago when the market was way different. Best they can do is ride it out on a high note and use any kind of momentum in the public perception plus lessons learned so the team can create an original title afterwards.

vio55555 · May 13, 2024

Phendrift said:
Oh I fully think Part 3 needs to finish what they started.

But XVII and beyond? I'm clearing my expectations. It's clear the series needs a massive shift. And if focusing on Switch 2 as the primary platform is what's needed, then im fine with that too. And hey, if it's developed with NS2 as the primary platform, there would probably be a great 60FPS mode or whatever on the more powerful consoles for people who care about that stuff

I think it'd help a ton to get to the mindset that Nintendo has where it's just a relentless focus on gameplay/story while making the games look as good as the Switch's (now Switch 2 for the development teams) hardware limitations make them look.

BotW and TotK are incredible games first and foremost that also look good even with the Switch's hardware limitations.

I think the "max graphics fidelity" race that SE has been on with FF has probably contributed substantially to the ballooning costs (where most of us would guess the budgets for these games are around $140-150 million minimum).

Switch 2 won't have quite as much limitations as Switch given it'll be around PS4 Pro, so going back to that isn't going to be some huge downgrade compared to Rebirth or 16, it'll just be more like Remake which was PS4-5.

I agree that it's better to take the step back with 17 focusing on a game that will translate well to Switch 2 as well as PS5-6/Xbox X/PC.

Ever ballooning development costs trying to chase the peak graphical edge doesn't make that much sense if it means that it's extremely difficult to port the games and that detracts from sales potential. And the graphical leap is just getting so much smaller each generation now; PS4 games still look great today.

ChimeraTech said:
PalWorld doesnt have turnbased combat.

Casette Beasts is closer to what youre describing and it sold less than a million.

Yeah but I meant more how Palworld just presented itself as "Pokemon with guns", not literally what the game was.

The fact is that the collection concept is a lot easier to sell to future generations because it's just a simple addictive idea. Pokemon is sort of a self-sustaining behemoth regardless of the quality of the games to an extent, Pikachu and the rest have such incredible mindshare.

Mephissto · May 13, 2024

I read something interesting today regarding the Sony exclusivity until 2035 of the X-Men IP and the deal Sony and Disney signed (which was leaked).

If one of these X-Men games sell less than 6 million the deal can be terminated by either side but if Sony would do so they have to pay a $9 million break up fee. Disney wouldn't have to pay if they wanted to terminate in the case of <6 million units sold.

Obviously not the completely applicable to FF7 remake but it does indeed show us that these contracts can be signed for long periods of time so I am certain that part 3 will also be exclusive unless either party would back out (if sales target not met). Probably the best case would be a port as soon as exclusivity ends.

Toth · May 13, 2024

DesVoeux said:
I think it's important to temper that reviewers have their own biases. Just as Final Fantasy has a disproportionate mindshare here on Era, that could also be true amongst critics. We all love a game (or anything) so much that we are willing to overlook its flaws.

Yeah, Metacritic scores are mostly important insomuch as they aren't bad. Gamers appear more repulsed by low scores than enticed by high scores. Many of the most critically lauded games aren't big hits.

To me it's very telling that SE has said they're going to reign in their producers after a fiscal year in which two expensive AAA titles released to underwhelming sales. I don't think SE would greenlight the FF7R trilogy in today's environment, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

honestly, the issue is more that they were releasing too much middling games that failed to find an audience. Besides FFXVI, Dark Prince (at least in Japan) and maybe SO 2 (did we ever get a sales update?), I can't think of a game that wasn't a successful at launch or indicated as such In 2023.

we also don't know how much was spent on games that never released. SE has had this problem for a while with some of their directors.

benzy · May 13, 2024

duckroll said:
So explain how in the 2024 financials, with both FFXVI (> 3 million sales) and FFVII Rebirth (> 2 million sales) released within the year's window, their HD game releases made a loss of over 50 million dollars? That's double the amount of loss in 2023 when they did not even have these big titles.

Edit: For reference, here is the comparison of their revenue and losses for HD games:

HD Games:

April 2022 - March 2023:

Net Revenue: ¥78.5 billion ($503 million)

Net Profit (Loss): -¥4.1 billion (-$26 million)

April 2023 - March 2024:

Net Revenue: ¥99.2 billion ($635 million)

Net Profit (Loss): -¥8.1 billion (-$52 million)

So they made 20 billion yen more in total sales, but still made an additional loss of 4 billion yen. That really goes to show how much more cost FFXVI and Rebirth could have added, and they just weren't able to make the money back.

Yeah and they actually released more AA duds in FY2023 than FY2024. The big AAA for FY2023 was Forspoken and that flopped, but its budget was around 90-110 mil. The dev costs for XVI & Rebirth must have been pretty insane for SE to incur an even bigger loss this year for the Hd games sect.

FY2023:

Live A Live
Voice of Cards: The Beasts of Burden
Various Daylife
The Diofield Chronicle
Valkyrie Elysium
Star Ocean: The Divine Force
Harvestella
Tactics Ogre: Reborn
Dragon Quest Treasures
Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII Reunion
Theatrhythm Final Bar Line
Octopath Traveler II
Paranormasight: The Seven Mysteries of Honjo

AAA - Forspoken

FY2024:
Ketsugou Danshi: Elements with Emotions
Dragon Quest: The Adventure of Dai – Infinity Strash
Star Ocean: The Second Story R
Dragon Quest Monsters: The Dark Prince
Final Fantasy VII: Ever Crisis
Foamstars

AAA - Final Fantasy VII Rebirth
AAA - Final Fantasy XVI

vio55555 · May 13, 2024

Mephissto said:
I read something interesting today regarding the Sony exclusivity until 2035 of the X-Men IP and the deal Sony and Disney signed (which was leaked).

If one of these X-Men games sell less than 6 million the deal can be terminated by either side but if Sony would do so they have to pay a $9 million break up fee. Disney wouldn't have to pay if they wanted to terminate in the case of <6 million units sold.

Obviously not the completely applicable to FF7 remake but it does indeed show us that these contracts can be signed for long periods of time so I am certain that part 3 will also be exclusive unless either party would back out (if sales target not met). Probably the best case would be a port as soon as exclusivity ends.

Well I'll tell you 1 thing I know for nearly sure, SE won't terminate any exclusivity agreement for Part 3 on their side.

Sony might consider it, but SE won't. After this level of Rebirth sales, SE has to take whatever remaining bag there is to help cover development costs of 3 (of course assuming that the entire trilogy was covered by the agreement). I think we all know that Part 3 is going to be a very difficult game to sell given that it functionally requires playing Remake and Rebirth, so expected sales will be pretty low (sub 3 million lifetime for Part 3 alone wouldn't be a surprise). Trilogy packs should sell very well over a long period of time, but those won't be affected by the exclusivity pact, so there's no reason for SE to end the deal.

Sony might consider it because FF isn't selling consoles (FF fans are just waiting for 16/Rebirth/Part 3 to get to their preferred platform whether PC or Xbox X/S or Switch 2) so paying a big $ amount to help FF development costs may be a negative for Sony, but at the same time, given their relationship with SE, I don't think they would want to either. Why push SE into the arms of Nintendo (Switch 2) when Japan is the biggest problem market for Sony by a mile and FF is still one of the best PS games in Japan?

It's inevitable I guess that new FFs end up on Switch 2, but the day that happens Sony has 0 edge in Japan for PS software sales.

So they have different motivations to stick together at this point, but almost certainly SE won't make any changes if Part 3 is part of the agreement.

Hero · May 13, 2024

benzy said:
Yeah and they actually released more AA duds in FY2023 than FY2024. The big AAA for FY2023 was Forspoken and that flopped, but its budget was around 90-110 mil. The dev costs for XVI & Rebirth must have been pretty insane for SE to incur an even bigger loss this year for the Hd games sect.

FY2023:

Live A Live
Voice of Cards: The Beasts of Burden
Various Daylife
The Diofield Chronicle
Valkyrie Elysium
Star Ocean: The Divine Force
Harvestella
Tactics Ogre: Reborn
Dragon Quest Treasures
Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII Reunion
Theatrhythm Final Bar Line
Octopath Traveler II
Paranormasight: The Seven Mysteries of Honjo

AAA - Forspoken

FY2024:
Ketsugou Danshi: Elements with Emotions
Dragon Quest: The Adventure of Dai – Infinity Strash
Star Ocean: The Second Story R
Dragon Quest Monsters: The Dark Prince
Final Fantasy VII: Ever Crisis
Foamstars

AAA - Final Fantasy VII Rebirth
AAA - Final Fantasy XVI

Yoshi P has said in multiple interviews that XVI was extremely expensive to produce. With how SE uses amortization having two AAA releases in a year was probably too much for them.

Elyian · May 13, 2024

benzy said:
Yeah and they actually released more AA duds in FY2023 than FY2024. The big AAA for FY2023 was Forspoken and that flopped, but its budget was around 90-110 mil. The dev costs for XVI & Rebirth must have been pretty insane for SE to incur an even bigger loss this year for the Hd games sect.

FY2023:

Live A Live
Voice of Cards: The Beasts of Burden
Various Daylife
The Diofield Chronicle
Valkyrie Elysium
Star Ocean: The Divine Force
Harvestella
Tactics Ogre: Reborn
Dragon Quest Treasures
Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII Reunion
Theatrhythm Final Bar Line
Octopath Traveler II
Paranormasight: The Seven Mysteries of Honjo

AAA - Forspoken

FY2024:
Ketsugou Danshi: Elements with Emotions
Dragon Quest: The Adventure of Dai – Infinity Strash
Star Ocean: The Second Story R
Dragon Quest Monsters: The Dark Prince
Final Fantasy VII: Ever Crisis
Foamstars

AAA - Final Fantasy VII Rebirth
AAA - Final Fantasy XVI

I almost forget how batshit insane their smaller scale release flow was in FY2023.

Really gotta wonder what those budgets for XVI and Rebirth were looking like though.

ghibli99 · May 13, 2024

benzy said:
Yeah and they actually released more AA duds in FY2023 than FY2024. The big AAA for FY2023 was Forspoken and that flopped, but its budget was around 90-110 mil. The dev costs for XVI & Rebirth must have been pretty insane for SE to incur an even bigger loss this year for the Hd games sect.

FY2023:

Live A Live
Voice of Cards: The Beasts of Burden
Various Daylife
The Diofield Chronicle
Valkyrie Elysium
Star Ocean: The Divine Force
Harvestella
Tactics Ogre: Reborn
Dragon Quest Treasures
Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII Reunion
Theatrhythm Final Bar Line
Octopath Traveler II
Paranormasight: The Seven Mysteries of Honjo

AAA - Forspoken

FY2024:
Ketsugou Danshi: Elements with Emotions
Dragon Quest: The Adventure of Dai – Infinity Strash
Star Ocean: The Second Story R
Dragon Quest Monsters: The Dark Prince
Final Fantasy VII: Ever Crisis
Foamstars

AAA - Final Fantasy VII Rebirth
AAA - Final Fantasy XVI

Wow, what a difference on the non-AAAs especially. I bought quite a few of the '23s (8 of them), but only 1 from the '24 list (Star Ocean TSS R). I did buy both '24 AAAs at launch, but grabbed Forspoken from Gamefly long, long after release (and still haven't touched it).

night814 · May 13, 2024

ChimeraTech said:
PalWorld doesnt have turnbased combat.

Casette Beasts is closer to what youre describing and it sold less than a million.

Temtem as well, also don't think it lit the world on fire as far as sales go

Clippy · May 13, 2024

I don't know how convinced themselves for so long that any of the AAA FF games could be considered cheap.

Toth · May 13, 2024

Can't find the right topic for this, but does anyone know if some of the increased development costs may have been for Dawntrail and Remake part 3 development as well? I know SE has their own MMORPG section on the financial but does that include the development of the games or just the upkeep / subscription/ monetization of the MMORPGs? I am asking because we know the whole Dawntrail development and graphical update likely cost a pretty penny.

Shoot · May 13, 2024

I think it's safe to now confidently say that Super Mario RPG outsold Rebirth. Interesting to look back at this thread. Not quite another Animal Crossing New Horizons vs FF Remake situation but still.

DesVoeux · May 13, 2024

Shoot said:
I think it's safe to now confidently say that Super Mario RPG outsold Rebirth. Interesting to look back at this thread. Not quite another Animal Crossing New Horizons vs FF Remake situation but still.

Super Mario RPG absolutely outsold FF7 Rebirth... but how many more copies would Nintendo have sold if they weren't enslaved to their outdated notions of platform exclusivity!? (This is a joke.)

duckroll · May 13, 2024

Toth said:
we also don't know how much was spent on games that never released. SE has had this problem for a while with some of their directors.

We actually do. If development takes forever and eventually it ships, the entire cost is taken into account for that product. If the game is eventually cancelled, the entire cost is taken into account as part of an extraordinary loss. Like the one they just announced.

For ongoing projects that are not released yet, it will have no impact on financials for now.

chocolate · May 13, 2024

Lumination said:
I wonder how many people who want a consistent direction would be happy if that direction was FF16.

Not a gotcha question, but the cat's already out of the bag. May be tricky to narrow focus again.

I'd drop the series.

I would rather they do what they did with Remake and Rebirth, so action combat but you can switch to other party members, mixture of both serious and comedic, and plentiful character interactions.

chocolate · May 13, 2024

DesVoeux said:
To me it's very telling that SE has said they're going to reign in their producers after a fiscal year in which two expensive AAA titles released to underwhelming sales.

It does make me wonder if anyone got yelled at recently for changing the trajectory of the story for these games?

Because "reign in producers" seems very on the nose, especially given the wild direction said producers took their games in...

duckroll · May 13, 2024

chocolate said:
It does make me wonder if anyone got yelled at recently for changing the trajectory of the story for these games?

Because "reign in producers" seems very on the nose, especially given the wild direction said producers took their games in...

Sometimes people need to stop thinking as a fan and more as a business executive when reading into this stuff.

On an executive level no one would generally care about the story beats or whatever unless it has a very strong negative impact on publicity (ie if there's backlash against some racist content or socially inappropriate stuff). The story being weird for long time fans and causing speculation is not a major issue.

The biggest problem with the management of big S-E titles is the costs and the resources poured into games that aren't selling on the level needed to recoup the investment. The time taken is also of concern in terms of ongoing opportunity cost. These are areas producers have to take responsibility for and where they will be reigned in.

I hate the Whispers in Remake/Rebirth but that's not going to be a major or even minor topic in a business meeting about why Rebirth is underperforming. Much more likely is the question of why it had to cost this much to make.

entut1 · May 13, 2024

dglavimans said:
Thing is tho… not only with FF7 but a lot of the industry games

Only way is up?

Altho I do find it wild how big they go with Rebirth in terms of cutscene graphics and stuff. It feels expensive

I don't think we're going back, but we could stop going up XD. Part III will most likely be as beautiful and expansive as Rebirth, but it doesn't have to be MORE.

Kuro · May 13, 2024

duckroll said:
Sometimes people need to stop thinking as a fan and more as a business executive when reading into this stuff.

On an executive level no one would generally care about the story beats or whatever unless it has a very strong negative impact on publicity (ie if there's backlash against some racist content or socially inappropriate stuff). The story being weird for long time fans and causing speculation is not a major issue.

The biggest problem with the management of big S-E titles is the costs and the resources poured into games that aren't selling on the level needed to recoup the investment. The time taken is also of concern in terms of ongoing opportunity cost. These are areas producers have to take responsibility for and where they will be reigned in.

I hate the Whispers in Remake/Rebirth but that's not going to be a major or even minor topic in a business meeting about why Rebirth is underperforming. Much more likely is the question of why it had to cost this much to make.

They actually did have a line about better incorporating customer feedback into the development process in the slides. They might be looking at reasons for the dropoff from Remake and story could be one.

I don't think it's a significant reason but they're certainly listening.

duckroll · May 13, 2024

Kuro said:
They actually did have a line about better incorporating customer feedback into the development process in the slides. They might be looking at reasons for the dropoff from Remake and story could be one.

I don't think it's a significant reason but they're certainly listening.

Story is definitely a reason, but less of "not faithful enough to the original" and more of "splitting one story into 3 games separated 4 years apart each is not exciting."

chocolate · May 14, 2024

duckroll said:
Sometimes people need to stop thinking as a fan and more as a business executive when reading into this stuff.

On an executive level no one would generally care about the story beats or whatever unless it has a very strong negative impact on publicity (ie if there's backlash against some racist content or socially inappropriate stuff). The story being weird for long time fans and causing speculation is not a major issue.

The biggest problem with the management of big S-E titles is the costs and the resources poured into games that aren't selling on the level needed to recoup the investment. The time taken is also of concern in terms of ongoing opportunity cost. These are areas producers have to take responsibility for and where they will be reigned in.

I hate the Whispers in Remake/Rebirth but that's not going to be a major or even minor topic in a business meeting about why Rebirth is underperforming. Much more likely is the question of why it had to cost this much to make.

Yes, and why aren't these games recouping on these investments? The product itself needs to be examined, not just the market in its current form.

I'm not saying it's the sole reason, because they do need to consider console exclusivity, long dev time, high production value, etc. No one is disagreeing with that.

I'll have to disagree about story direction not being brought up in these meetings, because discontent has to be caused by something.

Questions are going to be asked about why people are no longer interested in these products. Questions are going to be asked about why are the people who bought Remake not coming back to buy Rebirth? What did you do in that game that made people not become repeat customers?

A remake/sequel multiverse story trilogy totally screams "rein in these producers" to me because I don't know about you, but that is as wild and risky as they come when it comes to executive decisions.

"Rein them in" sounds about right.

They took a simple concept of remaking a beloved game and blew it out of proportion in a multitude of ways.

duckroll said:
Story is definitely a reason, but less of "not faithful enough to the original" and more of "splitting one story into 3 games separated 4 years apart each is not exciting."

Or it could be both? I'm not sure why we're ignoring a section of players who checked out because Remake turned them off. That is lost sales.

It's not unreasonable for someone to ask them "Why do these players feel turned off enough to not buy the next game?"

hollowpoop · May 14, 2024

BrandoBoySP said:
I think it's important for people to realize that the mainline games have been pretty well-received critically overall even with their flaws (FFXV got a lot of good critical buzz around release despite its issues!), not to mention that there's a bit of a cycle with the series. Every new game is the worst thing ever, a sign of doom for the series, until we get a new release or two and then it's all rose-colored glasses. Obviously I don't know if it's the specific same fans, but I remember how much a lot of fans hated FFXIII on release, yet I see a lot more appreciation for it nowadays, as an example.

I do have a hard time thinking the series is on a decline overall, tbh. The series (and more importantly, the entire industry) was in a very different place back in the PS1 days, from how we interact with stories in gaming to our standards of storytelling and the differences that things like voice acting bring in. Rebirth may be selling less, but that's to be expected: it's a PS5 exclusive when the last game was on PS4 and PC, which have a way larger install base. It's a direct sequel, so people might either wait for the trilogy to be done or decide there's too big a barrier to entry (or they didn't like Remake). But with critics and with player ratings, Rebirth got a lot of positive reception. Sales aren't everything.

Uh, I'm so sorry if this sounds rude, but it's literally critically acclaimed. Like, by critics. That's what the phrase means: acclaimed by people who critique media professionally. There's some leeway - maybe its flaws hamper the experience way more for you than others! - but there's a reason Rebirth has such high ratings, whether it's OpenCritic or MetaCritic or what-have-you. Doesn't mean it's perfect (hell, a lot of the glowing reviews do mention the pacing issues, for instance), but from large gaming-specific outlets (IGN and Destructoid) to general media criticism (Guardian or Washington Post) and smaller, more discerning critics (Jimquisition, Paste), it's been well-received.

Gaming is one of those things where yes, sales are important a lot of the time, but they're not the only metric to gauge something's success. If they were, Square would have completely folded after The Spirits Within.

Mephissto said:
According to the 148 or so critics who played and rated the game.

If we applied your logic then XIII-3 would be the best rated game of the trilogy which is clearl not the case. If we were only going by fan reception I could kinda follow the point but even then. Sequels don't automatically rate better than the previous game.

I agree though that a certain sales dropoff likely comes from people who didn't enjoy Remake as much. Rebirth however is a much better game and think improved in all the areas you mentioned.

Rutger said:
This is the same argument people will use to discredit FFXIV's scores.
I don't agree with it there, and I don't agree with it here. Fans can often be more critical about smaller things so it isn't a free high score, the reality is just that Rebirth is an overall better version of what many liked in Remake.

Hero said:
Critically acclaimed by the entire world basically or are you just sticking your head in the sand when it comes to Metacritic and/or OpenCritic?

As a Zelda fan as well I can definitely understand it to a degree especially after people went from hating Toon Link/WW to loving it after TP and beyond.

I think people are definitely more passionate about things they dislike in the moment than down the line.

Basically this:

Ah, the old appeal to subjective authority! You know which game also reviewed well with 116 positives and an 87 score? Final Fantasy 7 Remake! The game unable to hold its core audience which caused the "masterpiece" follow up to flop! You can blow smoke up these professional opinion givers all you want but at the end of the day that circle jerk means nothing when the actual people who matter realized the emperor had no clothes, and the sycophant's singing his praises seem less trustworthy or influential by the day.

Meanwhile Helldivers has an 82 and has had more cultural impact in resonating with the audience all while actually, you know, being fun.

unknown_nut · May 14, 2024

chocolate said:
Or it could be both? I'm not sure why we're ignoring a section of players who checked out because Remake turned them off. That is lost sales.

It's both for me, but you know them purists are wrong. I ain't going to buy Rebirth or the next game.

Hero · May 14, 2024

hollowpoop said:
Ah, the old appeal to subjective authority! You know which game also reviewed well with 116 positives and an 87 score? Final Fantasy 7 Remake! The game unable to hold its core audience which caused the "masterpiece" follow up to flop! You can blow smoke up these professional opinion givers all you want but at the end of the day that circle jerk means nothing when the actual people who matter realized the emperor had no clothes, and the sycophant's singing his praises seem less trustworthy or influential by the day.

Meanwhile Helldivers has an 82 and has had more cultural impact in resonating with the audience all while actually, you know, being fun.

Cultural impact? Lmao. Miss me with that from a game that's only a few months old. At least say something like Fortnite or Candy Crush. I'd even take Mario Kart or Sims.

duckroll · May 14, 2024

chocolate said:
Yes, and why aren't these games recouping on these investments? The product itself needs to be examined, not just the market in its current form.

I'm not saying it's the sole reason, because they do need to consider console exclusivity, long dev time, high production value, etc. No one is disagreeing with that.

I'll have to disagree about story direction not being brought up in these meetings, because discontent has to be caused by something.

Questions are going to be asked about why people are no longer interested in these products. Questions are going to be asked about why are the people who bought Remake not coming back to buy Rebirth? What did you do in that game that made people not become repeat customers?

A remake/sequel multiverse story trilogy totally screams "rein in these producers" to me because I don't know about you, but that is as wild and risky as they come when it comes to executive decisions.

"Rein them in" sounds about right.

They took a simple concept of remaking a beloved game and blew it out of proportion in a multitude of ways.

Or it could be both? I'm not sure why we're ignoring a section of players who checked out because Remake turned them off. That is lost sales.

It's not unreasonable for someone to ask them "Why do these players feel turned off enough to not buy the next game?"

I think it's worth considering how much is active disdain and how much is apathy.

Rebirth has reviewed very well and in general feedback is highly positive. Those who are angry at Remake and Rebirth appear to be quite a small minority. In general it feels more like most people just don't care or lost interest. More research would need to be done for a definitive conclusion, but the answer is not always "what are people upset about" when something doesn't sell. It could just be that people don't care even if it's a good product because they aren't interested in what it is.

unknown_nut · May 14, 2024

Well only 2 games comes to mind as a recent cultural impact, that's Balder's Gate 3 and Helldivers 2.

dex3108 · May 14, 2024

Well it is official now

View: https://twitter.com/6d6f636869/status/1790227310567960626?t=H2TEBLVo-VSFIB2xbnrO0w&s=19

Mephissto · May 14, 2024

hollowpoop said:
Ah, the old appeal to subjective authority! You know which game also reviewed well with 116 positives and an 87 score? Final Fantasy 7 Remake! The game unable to hold its core audience which caused the "masterpiece" follow up to flop! You can blow smoke up these professional opinion givers all you want but at the end of the day that circle jerk means nothing when the actual people who matter realized the emperor had no clothes, and the sycophant's singing his praises seem less trustworthy or influential by the day.

Meanwhile Helldivers has an 82 and has had more cultural impact in resonating with the audience all while actually, you know, being fun.

Ok? A game being played by many people doesn't make it critical acclaimed nor does it make it good. Not talking about a specific game but in general.

chocolate · May 14, 2024

duckroll said:
I think it's worth considering how much is active disdain and how much is apathy.

Rebirth has reviewed very well and in general feedback is highly positive. Those who are angry at Remake and Rebirth appear to be quite a small minority. In general it feels more like most people just don't care or lost interest. More research would need to be done for a definitive conclusion, but the answer is not always "what are people upset about" when something doesn't sell. It could just be that people don't care even if it's a good product because they aren't interested in what it is.

That's a fair point. There is a pretty big distinction between disdain and apathy.

I do agree with you that apathy would outweigh disdain in this case.

However it would still raise the same question: what did you do in this game that made people lose interest?

It would have made for a very uncomfortable meeting that's for sure. I can only imagine how angry the head of the meeting would have gotten if the answer was "Well, I thought it would have been a cool idea to subvert expectations even though nobody asked me to."

dex3108 said:
Well it is official now

View: https://twitter.com/6d6f636869/status/1790227310567960626?t=H2TEBLVo-VSFIB2xbnrO0w&s=19

No sales figures to share for Rebirth... jesus christ well seems like we're never going to get anything then. They're just that bad.

"Has been relied too much on an individual's creativity. Will promote sharing game making how-how among teams and will seek best balance of individual creativity and organizational discipline "

Yeah this definitely feels like a continuation of the "reining in producers" quote.

reksveks · May 14, 2024

View: https://imgur.com/a/5cZxLZ3

It will bounce back but not a good day for the shareholders 😜

oty · May 14, 2024

Hero said:
Cultural impact? Lmao. Miss me with that from a game that's only a few months old. At least say something like Fortnite or Candy Crush. I'd even take Mario Kart or Sims.

there's no need to downplay one game's achievements to prop up another. HD2 was a significant hit in 2024 where as Rebirth has probably 20% of it's sales. even if HD2 has very minimal cultural impact, it's extensively more than Rebirth

CenaToon · May 14, 2024

reksveks said:
View: https://imgur.com/a/5cZxLZ3

"Hello Sharks, my name is Naoki Yoshida, and we bring to you: Ultimate Fantasia, the future of role playing gaming"

Kuro · May 14, 2024

I figured they were going to get cooked after the financial report but damn the pressure on Dawntrail must be absolutely immense. Their most profitable segment by far will have to bring in even more profit.

oty · May 14, 2024

Kuro said:
I figured they were going to get cooked after the financial report but damn the pressure on Dawntrail must be absolutely immense. Their most profitable segment by far will have to bring in even more profit.

it's not like XIV hasnt been the hail mary from SE for the last...how many years now? lmfao

and people are somehow mad at cs3 for...keeping SE alive. what a world

duckroll · May 14, 2024

chocolate said:
That's a fair point. There is a pretty big distinction between disdain and apathy.

I do agree with you that apathy would outweigh disdain in this case.

However it would still raise the same question: what did you do in this game that made people lose interest?

It would have made for a very uncomfortable meeting that's for sure. I can only imagine how angry the head of the meeting would have gotten if the answer was "Well, I thought it would have been a cool idea to subvert expectations even though nobody asked me to."

I would love to see a sales research study when all is said and done with the FFVII Remake Trilogy on what audiences really felt. Was it the story being too weird/divergent? Was it taking too long? Did the games seem too similar to each other? Was it not having a PS5? Was it because Chadley is too annoying? Does FFVII just seem boring? Was it lack of interest in the action gameplay? Was the gameplay not action enough?

I do wonder what the breakdown would look like when presented with reasons why someone either doesn't care for more FFVII, or actively dislikes what it is now.

chocolate · May 14, 2024

duckroll said:
I would love to see a sales research study when all is said and done with the FFVII Remake Trilogy on what audiences really felt. Was it the story being too weird/divergent? Was it taking too long? Did the games seem too similar to each other? Was it not having a PS5? Was it because Chadley is too annoying? Does FFVII just seem boring? Was it lack of interest in the action gameplay? Was the gameplay not action enough?

I do wonder what the breakdown would look like when presented with reasons why someone either doesn't care for more FFVII, or actively dislikes what it is now.

I do think a survey of this kind should definitely be conducted by SE.

It will be the most insightful feedback and data gathering they could get to prevent such mistakes in the future.

Whether they will do it or not, is the question.

Vervain · May 14, 2024

I genuinely wonder if part of VII Remake's success might have actually been due to it releasing right at the start of Covid.

I know games like Animal Crossing were flagged as exploding due to their timing, but I haven't seen the same thoughts in relation to Remake before.

I could see a combination of that inflation and the massive install base leading to Square thinking further games would see the same success with exclusivity deals.

Throw in higher console prices, higher game prices, the receding of the Covid bubble boost and global cost of living crises, and you have a maelstrom perfect for plummeting game sales.

duckroll · May 14, 2024

Vervain said:
I know games like Animal Crossing were flagged as exploding due to their timing, but I haven't seen the same thoughts in relation to Remake before.

Eh, it was absolutely a big talking point and even acknowledged by Square Enix as a factor in the game's success. That's also why the digital sales for the game was unusually strong even in Japan. Covid lockdowns were absolutely a factor for FFVII Remake blowing up.

Pariah · May 14, 2024

Hero said:
My dude, do you realize where you are posting? Its pretty cynical to come into a sales related thread and say this.

What are you implying? I wasn't aware the only possible discourse around sales was embracing the whims of the market in a blind run for more revenue, record profits and a higher MAU number.

I believe there are other sides to the question, even in a sales thread. Such as not obsessing about it because as a regular player/nobody, the viability of what they've been doing for so long matters more to me than what they'd have to do in order to chase that audience which doesn't care about their current offerings.

Or that this industry wouldn't be in such bad shape if studios spent significantly less instead of hoping to sell so much more in order to justify their absurdly exorbitant budgets.

Good management and moderate production costs form together another path to success as valid as the one envisioned here by others. The likes of Yakuza and Persona haven't got where they are by mutating into something no one could recognize; both series have broken boundaries changing neither their DNA nor escalating costs to the point of financial collapse.

My sales pitch is not one for growth but sticking to your guns while adjusting to the market. This series will need to become smaller first if it wants to be bigger one day. I think pursuing the latter at the cost of losing what makes it unique will only get them in a deeper hole.

DesVoeux · May 14, 2024

Pariah said:
My sales pitch is not one for growth but sticking to your guns while adjusting to the market. This series will need to become smaller first if it wants to be bigger one day. I think pursuing the latter at the cost of losing what makes it unique will only get them in a deeper hole.

Coming off a FY in which they released two AAA games and still lost money, SE definitely need to do some soul searching. They've already played the "break glass in case of emergency" card and it's been a disaster. So going fully multiplatform and making smaller games seems to be their only clear path. They may annoy some longtime FF fans by dialing back the spectacle a little, but the current expenditures just don't seem sustainable.

sfortunato · May 14, 2024

duckroll said:
Story is definitely a reason, but less of "not faithful enough to the original" and more of "splitting one story into 3 games separated 4 years apart each is not exciting."

*with the 2nd game being on a new console

Toth · May 14, 2024

DesVoeux said:
Coming off a FY in which they released two AAA games and still lost money, SE definitely need to do some soul searching. They've already played the "break glass in case of emergency" card and it's been a disaster. So going fully multiplatform and making smaller games seems to be their only clear path. They may annoy some longtime FF fans by dialing back the spectacle a little, but the current expenditures just don't seem sustainable.

Disaster is a bit much. Disappointing yes.

Mephissto · May 14, 2024

reksveks said:
View: https://imgur.com/a/5cZxLZ3

It will bounce back but not a good day for the shareholders 😜

Thinking about jumping in, tbh. Then again SE can always make even dumber decisions down the line though their new multiplatform plan seems good at least.

Kuro · May 14, 2024

Mephissto said:
Thinking about jumping in, tbh. Then again SE can always make even dumber decisions down the line though their new multiplatform plan seems good at least.

Good time to buy before Dawntrail's likely big launch which will cause a rebound but its not looking pretty overall for the next 2 years as their new plan will take time to show results.

Mephissto · May 14, 2024

Kuro said:
Good time to buy before Dawntrail's likely big launch which will cause a rebound but its not looking pretty overall for the next 2 years as their new plan will take time to show results.

Well, I am not in a hurry so I might go in with a small amount.

Edit: Bought 40 shares, lol.

Rutger · May 14, 2024

hollowpoop said:
Ah, the old appeal to subjective authority! You know which game also reviewed well with 116 positives and an 87 score? Final Fantasy 7 Remake! The game unable to hold its core audience which caused the "masterpiece" follow up to flop! You can blow smoke up these professional opinion givers all you want but at the end of the day that circle jerk means nothing when the actual people who matter realized the emperor had no clothes, and the sycophant's singing his praises seem less trustworthy or influential by the day.

Meanwhile Helldivers has an 82 and has had more cultural impact in resonating with the audience all while actually, you know, being fun.

You know, I think there is an argument to be made about even 100+ reviews not being a good sample size and that critics don't always capture what audiences care about.

But you said all this in the most asshole-ish way that I don't want to engage with any of it, haha.

lvl 99 Pixel · May 14, 2024

Rutger said:
You know, I think there is an argument to be made about even 100+ reviews not being a good sample size and that critics don't always capture what audiences care about.

Its got to be a very small part of the audience that actually reads the reviews. I know I didn't share review stuff when I gave some Helldivers copies to people who played it with us. I don't really know how FF can get that kind of attention any more in such a saturated and online market outside of the MMO, because that's more of a social thing.

DesVoeux · May 14, 2024

Toth said:
Disaster is a bit much. Disappointing yes.

Rebirth is, as far as I know, the only Final Fantasy that Square Enix has ever declined to share numbers on. The only reason I can see that happening is that the numbers are worse than the worst case scenario. If that's the trajectory of the trilogy, then it is not unreasonable to forecast that 7R3 will have even lower sales. I think that's a little beyond "disappointing". Believe me, I really wish SE would come out and say I'm wrong!

Daniel Ahmad (ZhugeEX): Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth is underperforming sales wise. Selling about half of what Remake sold in the same timeframe

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