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TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,504
Almost every single thread with any relation to gun control whatsoever on ERA/GAF opened with "BAN ALL GUNS NOW". This is the most proven, effective, and time tested way of guaranteeing that there will be no discussion of gun CONTROL. If someone wants a ban, good for them, keep it to yourself when discussing gun control, not because you don't have a right to speak your mind, but because you need to learn how to get what you want out of people, and part of that is learning to avoid saying stuff you know that the people you're trying to reach a compromise with don't want to hear.

Gun control in the U.S. is about compromise. Screaming about banning all guns now is not compromise and will make sure that most pro-gun people don't want to compromise either. A lot of gun owners, myself included, have been ready to make some changes to gun laws. I'm ready for a federal licencing system, I'm ready for universal background checks, I'm ready to deny people with a history of violence and abuse the right to own a gun, I'm ready for mandatory wait periods. I have no reason to take issue with any of this, because I'm not doing anything questionable with my guns. Half of it is already normal because it's state law.

Gun control needs to improve, but coming up with unreasonable bullshit like 'oh you need to take mental health tests every week because you have more than five guns!' or the usual "BAN ALL GUNS NOW" war cry is exactly how to prevent ANYTHING from happening.

Spot on.
 

TheMikado

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,300
Almost every single thread with any relation to gun control whatsoever on ERA/GAF opened with "BAN ALL GUNS NOW". This is the most proven, effective, and time tested way of guaranteeing that there will be no discussion of gun CONTROL. If someone wants a ban, good for them, keep it to yourself when discussing gun control, not because you don't have a right to speak your mind, but because you need to learn how to get what you want out of people, and part of that is learning to avoid saying stuff you know that the people you're trying to reach a compromise with don't want to hear.

Gun control in the U.S. is about compromise. Screaming about banning all guns now is not compromise and will make sure that most pro-gun people don't want to compromise either. A lot of gun owners, myself included, have been ready to make some changes to gun laws. I'm ready for a federal licencing system, I'm ready for universal background checks, I'm ready to deny people with a history of violence and abuse the right to own a gun, I'm ready for mandatory wait periods. I have no reason to take issue with any of this, because I'm not doing anything questionable with my guns. Half of it is already normal because it's state law.

Gun control needs to improve, but coming up with unreasonable bullshit like 'oh you need to take mental health tests every week because you have more than five guns!' or the usual "BAN ALL GUNS NOW" war cry is exactly how to prevent ANYTHING from happening.

The problem is you have the loudest voices going nuts on either side. I've seen things in here being proposed and completely ignored wholesale in order to fight a good fight.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,025
Houston
Eh... I watched it, or starting watching it rather. It's a complete dramatization. Totally fake. Criminals do not pay thousands for handmade boutique "non-traceable" BS when there are millions of stolen cheap guns readily available here.

You are watching too many hitman movies and CSI baloney.
oh really? that a fact?

Agent Mulham said, "Well, a quality pistol like a Glock might go for double or triple retail. Lower-quality guns, however, are often worth only $100 or $200 more than retail."
as they actually say in the show, it depends on the type of gun, where it came from and has it been used in a crime. much of which is backed up in this article here.

they aren't buying them legally, they're buying them through straw purchasers, from someone that stole them
I asked, "So basically the guns seized at crime scenes aren't leading back to gun stores, but to thefts or other sales?"

They nodded agreement.
which is congruous with what the Nation Geographic episode was saying, buying a super cheap gun that's been used in a crime cause a criminal needs it, yes of course its cheaper than a retail gun.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2014/08/12/inside-the-black-market-for-guns/#1df326ef181e


PS I don't watch CSI or any variation of it.
 
Last edited:

Flo_Evans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,250
oh really? that a fact?

as they actually say in the show, it depends on the type of gun, where it came from and has it been used in a crime. much of which is backed up in this article here.

they aren't buying them legally, they're buying them through straw purchasers, from someone that stole them

which is congruous with what the Nation Geographic episode was saying, buying a super cheap gun that's been used in a crime cause a criminal needs it, yes of course its cheaper than a retail gun.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2014/08/12/inside-the-black-market-for-guns/#1df326ef181e


PS I don't watch CSI or any variation of it.

Dude no offense but I think you don't know what you are talking about at all. I know several cops, I know what kind of guns they recover from criminals. Why not look at some stats instead of sensational fear mongering TV shows and articles?

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

#1 by a large margin is the POS Lorcin. Its a sub $100 junk gun that is basically disposable. The common criminal is not paying 2-3x retail for a glock.
 

RSena7

Member
Oct 26, 2017
332
I did a little more digging and found someone with a counter-argument: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/4/16418754/gun-control-washington-post

We have more than enough evidence to suggest that gun control clear works. CDC research will just be the metaphorical nail in the coffin in terms of overwhelming evidence in favor of gun control. Of course there is no reason to believe pro-gun advocates will listen.
That's a good counter-argument. I still think there's legitimacy in a prudent approach to gun control centering around potential victims and perpetrators. I'm personally in favor in registering all guns just like we register cars. I also believe in licensing all gun owners and revoking or suspending licenses for committing any violent crimes (including assault and battery).
 

TheMikado

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,300
That's a good counter-argument. I still think there's legitimacy in a prudent approach to gun control centering around potential victims and perpetrators. I'm personally in favor in registering all guns just like we register cars. I also believe in licensing all gun owners and revoking or suspending licenses for committing any violent crimes (including assault and battery).

Yup, all good points.
 

Vilix

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,055
Texas
Almost every single thread with any relation to gun control whatsoever on ERA/GAF opened with "BAN ALL GUNS NOW". This is the most proven, effective, and time tested way of guaranteeing that there will be no discussion of gun CONTROL. If someone wants a ban, good for them, keep it to yourself when discussing gun control, not because you don't have a right to speak your mind, but because you need to learn how to get what you want out of people, and part of that is learning to avoid saying stuff you know that the people you're trying to reach a compromise with don't want to hear.

Gun control in the U.S. is about compromise. Screaming about banning all guns now is not compromise and will make sure that most pro-gun people don't want to compromise either. A lot of gun owners, myself included, have been ready to make some changes to gun laws. I'm ready for a federal licencing system, I'm ready for universal background checks, I'm ready to deny people with a history of violence and abuse the right to own a gun, I'm ready for mandatory wait periods. I have no reason to take issue with any of this, because I'm not doing anything questionable with my guns. Half of it is already normal because it's state law.

Gun control needs to improve, but coming up with unreasonable bullshit like 'oh you need to take mental health tests every week because you have more than five guns!' or the usual "BAN ALL GUNS NOW" war cry is exactly how to prevent ANYTHING from happening.
My thoughts exactly. Well done.

That's a good counter-argument. I still think there's legitimacy in a prudent approach to gun control centering around potential victims and perpetrators. I'm personally in favor in registering all guns just like we register cars. I also believe in licensing all gun owners and revoking or suspending licenses for committing any violent crimes (including assault and battery).

That is already on the books.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,358
New York
Agreed w/ Rex Griswold 100%. Solid post.

That is already on the books.

How? All guns are not registered. Not even in NY. Sure, my pistol is. But I purchased my safe-act approved AK (Saiga 7.62x39) in NY with a NICS check that took not even 10 minutes. So there's no way to revoke or suspend someone's firearms w/ an unregistered status.

Why we don't have recurring background checks is beyond me. Every day, twice a day every background check is constantly ran and if 5 years after you purchased a gun you get a restraining order that goes into the system and gets flagged.

We definitely gotta do a better job of keeping firearms from those that shouldn't have them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,231
Born in rural American midwest, so I've been around guns since birth. In fact I could accurately shoot a rifle at a hundred yards before I could ride a bike. Growing up it was primarily for hunting purposes as that's been a thing in my family for generations. Deer mostly, but turkey and other bird too. Which basically just means I'm familiar with shotguns and rifles, and actually own one of each, which I also shot competitively (skeet and silhouette mostly) growing up. I never got into semi-automatic pistols, though have always had a thing for revolvers. I have long since stopped hunting however, so shooting is mostly just a hobby to participate in with friends and family. I preface with this because I want to make clear I recognize some of the reasons people own guns - hunting and sports shooting.

With that out of the way, my stance on the gun control debate. Ideally I imagine a world where people who hunt and enjoy sports shooting can exist while those seeking to harm others are not allowed access to the tools which allow them to maximize that harm - in other words, guns. My personal solution would be to allow home ownership of single-shot or low capacity mag/clip bolt-action long guns. Four rounds would be the maximum capacity I would negotiate for, and honestly if you need that many to take down large game then you need to spend more time at the range. As for every other type of gun - I would outlaw them for home ownership. I would however allow people to purchase other types of guns but require they be held and stored at a qualified range. Then the owner of the gun can go to the range to check out their guns for use before being rechecked with the facility when they leave. If the person moves or needs to find a new range then they need to file the paperwork with the facility to have the arm transported to a new location (done by the ranges and not the firearm owner). Also all gun purchases require a thorough mental health check at the expense of the buyer and/or seller of the firearm.

Now do I think that will ever happen? Almost certainly not. And the main reason isn't the people pushing for control, but the people wanting unfettered access to high-powered, high-capacity firearms that they have no reasonable need of. There is no legitimate reason to own a 10+ round semi-auto rifle outside of the range, so why those types of guns are allowed to leave such locations is beyond me. And for people who feel they need a semi-auto pistol for defense, I am sorry, but that is asinine. Drawing a weapon poses a larger threat to the well-being of yourself and others more than virtually any other situation involving a home-invader, mugger, etc. Those criminals are after money or things, not your life. So pulling a gun out is more likely to get you or a loved one harmed than if you just give what you want and contact the authorities ASAP. Your life isn't worth the risk for some currency or trite trinkets. And for the insane idea that citizen ownership of firearms will somehow prevent the government overstepping its bounds - that'd almost be laughable if it wasn't so sad. The police are better equipped and trained than those subscribing to such buffoonery - let alone the military body of this country. If such a non-plausible scenario were to ever happen you'd be out of it before you know what hit you.

Edit:

Oh and I forgot. Anybody who takes umbrage with those saying "Ban all guns" needs to learn to stop being so defensive and how to read between the lines. Most people spouting that are not absolutists and are more than willing to negotiate below a full ban. They are most certainly posting out of a highly emotional state or event whereas they proclaim the simplest solution. If you're so caught up in feeling your guns are being threatened then it's not the 'ban all guns' rhetoric that is shutting down conversation, it's YOU.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,025
Houston
Dude no offense but I think you don't know what you are talking about at all. I know several cops, I know what kind of guns they recover from criminals. Why not look at some stats instead of sensational fear mongering TV shows and articles?

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

#1 by a large margin is the POS Lorcin. Its a sub $100 junk gun that is basically disposable. The common criminal is not paying 2-3x retail for a glock.
the article is quoting fucking ATF agents, what more do you fucking want?
did you miss the part where I said the show covers multiple ways criminals get guns or you just have a hard on to prove that I watched some show and don't know shit?
 

Vilix

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,055
Texas
Agreed w/ Rex Griswold 100%. Solid post.



How? All guns are not registered. Not even in NY. Sure, my pistol is. But I purchased my safe-act approved AK (Saiga 7.62x39) in NY with a NICS check that took not even 10 minutes. So there's no way to revoke or suspend someone's firearms w/ an unregistered status.

Why we don't have recurring background checks is beyond me. Every day, twice a day every background check is constantly ran and if 5 years after you purchased a gun you get a restraining order that goes into the system and gets flagged.

We definitely gotta do a better job of keeping firearms from those that shouldn't have them.
What I meant was that when you commit a violent crime, like assault and battery, and the crime is punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year, you then have to turn over your guns to law enforcement, or law enforcement will come get them, or you can make a deal with the court to sell them.
 
OP
OP
phisheep

phisheep

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,817
I was planning to come in and summarise the day's play - but it looks like it got a bit out of hand here while I was at work! Not really surprising that it has been a bit of a free-for-all so far, it is the way all these threads seem to go.

If we are going to able to take this further, then we need to take two things off the table straight away:

1) "ban all guns" - because, even disregarding whether it could be done, it's not feasible in any sensible timeframe, and doesn't contribute to actual discussion as opposed to outright disagreement

2) apocalyptic armed-defense-against-authoritarian-government scenarios - because, even disregarding whether it would ever be necessary - it defends only against the "ban-all-guns" scenario and doesn't speak to the control of guns at all

(I did post about both of these further up the thread, and will link them here when I find them).

Also, in such a wide-ranging topic, it is easy to lose track of what is being discussed where, and difficult to respond appropriately. So I'd like to try tackling some quite specific aspects one at a time. Among them are:
a) which categories of firearms/equipment might be subject to restriction?
b) what restrictions might be placed on ownership of firearms
c) what restrictions might be placed on transfer of firearms
d) what are the minimum necessary levels of government registration to effectively police any proposed restrictions

... that's not all by any means, but it is something to go on.

I would like to start with the first one.

CURRENT TOPIC: Which categories of firearms/equipment might be subject to restriction/control?

Some say handguns, some say "assault rifles", some say silencers - there are probably other categories too. Or maybe go by clip size or something.

There's a big definitional problem with all of these - most obviously (to anyone who's paying attention) with the "assault rifle" thing, but I suspect with any other category too. Either the definition is unclear or - even if it isn't unclear now - manufacturers are going to find a way around it ... such as the automatic fire -> bumpstock thing. I'm not even sure that there could be a sensible definition of a handgun for example.

There's also a risk in taking this approach, that a lot of effort gets expended to control some small portion of the guns around and that this makes no practical difference to anything. It's a big black hole in my understanding, and something that needs people with gun knowledge that I haven't got.

If you want to discuss this over the next day or so, please quote that bolded sentence above in your reply, and stick to topic. If we can get some decent discussion on that then it suggests we might get somewhere in this thread by picking off one piece at a time.

Meanwhile, don't go responding to people who want to ban guns and have apocalypses!

(now I'll go back and read the last few pages!)
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,250
the article is quoting fucking ATF agents, what more do you fucking want?
did you miss the part where I said the show covers multiple ways criminals get guns or you just have a hard on to prove that I watched some show and don't know shit?

Look man, I'm just trying to keep the conversation based on facts. $2000 ghost glocks is fantasy land. How about some quotes from actual convicted gun traffickers?

https://everytownresearch.org/reports/inside-straw-purchasing-criminals-get-guns-illegally/

Traffickers usually recruit straw purchasers who are close at hand, often a relative or girlfriend. Cash payments for making straw purchases vary from around $20 to $100 per gun, our interviews indicate.

Traffickers we interviewed usually picked cheap guns for their straws to buy because they could resell these guns at a higher profit than more expensive models. Some of these traffickers mentioned as examples several brands of handgun that they bought for less than $150. "They were what was common on the streets," according to one straw.53

One trafficker we spoke with attributed interstate trafficking to what he understood as "big demand" for "cheap, throw-away" guns in places like New York and California

One trafficker told us he bought $99 guns in Georgia and sold them for $600 in New York. Another trafficker only bought Hi-Point 9mms, because he could sell a Glock that cost hundreds of dollars for only a couple hundred more in New York, while he could sell a $99 HiPoint for $500.

If we ever hope to solve this problem we have to at least understand what is actually happening.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,025
Houston
Also, in such a wide-ranging topic, it is easy to lose track of what is being discussed where, and difficult to respond appropriately. So I'd like to try tackling some quite specific aspects one at a time. Among them are:
a) which categories of firearms/equipment might be subject to restriction?
b) what restrictions might be placed on ownership of firearms
c) what restrictions might be placed on transfer of firearms
d) what are the minimum necessary levels of government registration to effectively police any proposed restrictions
A) bump stocks, silencers, any modification that increases magazine size beyond whats limited, any modification that makes a gun fully auto,
b) background check on all sales of guns, meaning no more legal private sales of guns, which also covers C)
D) minimum levels of government is Federal enforcement, because of this thread I've been doing more and more research and finding more and more that lax gun laws elsewhere affect places with more stringent gun laws.

While this website seems to be biased in favor of gun restrictions this particular article links to numerous studies that appear to have been done by scholarly people. https://www.thetrace.org/2015/09/gun-laws-work-criminals-effectiveness-research/
Its very long so quoting single bits doesn't really do it justice. There is some conclusion jumping imo from some of the studies links, but many of the conclusions reached appear to have some merit. I especially like some of the quotes from former gang members in Chicago saying getting 5 rounds for their gun in Chicago was 50 bucks, which is five times what it actually costs to legally buy.

Look man, I'm just trying to keep the conversation based on facts. $2000 ghost glocks is fantasy land. How about some quotes from actual convicted gun traffickers?

https://everytownresearch.org/reports/inside-straw-purchasing-criminals-get-guns-illegally/









If we ever hope to solve this problem we have to at least understand what is actually happening.
it wasn't a ghost glock, if you had bothered to watch the video, it was a 1911 .45 manufactured in Danao that was 2000 dollars when it hit US shores.
None of those quotes are any different from the other article I linked. I would very much appreciate if instead of coming at me, you actually read what I posted and linked to. The forbes article mirrors almost exactly what you posted in your quotes. Also check my above link in this post, which also has quotes very similar to what you just posted.
 
Oct 26, 2017
865
Himuro sorry if this is incorrect but all I've seen you do is be contrary to others posts, is there any gun control legislation you support? Cause I sure haven't seen it. You're arguments generally come across as nothing can be do, oh well.

Depends on what you define gun control to be. Something definitely can be done, if Democrats and Republicans play ball with each other, which isn't likely because Republicans tend to be skeptical (not without merit to be fair) of any gun control attempt, and Democrats tend to be overly emotional and pass generally bad gun reform laws as seen in California and other Democratic party states.

- I think all guns should be licensed, but that's already a thing.

-I am sympathetic to a registration list. So long as the data is made private in some way, much like SSN, and peoples age/race/address are not tied to the system. Only names and their registered weapon. Those who are seeking information on a specific weapon should have to go through the local police department to get their license. This is done so that such knowledge is not abused. If registration is to be done, it must be done right.

-I do not support mandatory classes or "taxing the hell out" of guns for gun ownership because extra fees tend to price people who might need a gun (poor people) out of the market Toppling a bunch of fees on top of guns is usually just good old classism and very often, racism. Despite the fact that most criminals (as noted in this thread) do not buy weapons legally and most major mass shootings are done by white men, who could afford the guns with the extra fees anyways.

-That said, America should really amp up its gun safety. I look at countries like Sweden and they are really, really good with gun education and safety. Every gun shop and range I have been into has had the four rules in big, bold print to be read and memorized but a lot of gun safety growing up was nothing more than,"if you see a gun, tell an adult" and that's that. Note: I was not raised around guns. There's a lot of bad information out there about guns which impede safety, mostly created by Hollywood, such as the idea that if you drop a loaded gun it will fire. I really like this mini-doc on Guns in Switzerlandby AlJazeera. Their safety protocols are what I'm looking for. We, as American's don't have to lose our cultural identity, and people become safer. As long as it's done where people are legally allowed to use their weapons for self defense and handguns are not touched. I'm not saying I want exactly what these countries have but I really respect their gun safety protocols.

- People should be able to own what they want with the caveat that they know how to safely use it. My dad has to do schooling every few years to pass a test for his work license. The same should be true for guns.

-Most reactions to gun control caused by mass shootings is sensational and emotional and has no bearing on helping lower homicides in key urban centers that affects young men of color and therefore are not good gun control. Basing gun control off of mass shootings is a bad way to look at gun deaths in America as they are a small slice of actual deaths (most of which are actually suicides). Especially since we have laws in place and often these incidents happen because of some oversight or Federal fuck up.

-There should be a 72 hour waiting period when purchasing guns. If someone buys a gun and instantly walks out with it that day, I think that's a problem. I don't think that number should be as high ten but I do think there should be a federal mandatory waiting period on such a lethal object. Guns are to be respected. Handing guns over the day of purchase is irresponsible. This could also potential curtail impulsive suicides and homicides by letting the emotions boil over, hopefully. Something to consider.

- Background checks should not be a one time deal. They should be concurrent. Either monthly or every other month. Extra reading: Kentucky Runs Monthly Background Checks On It's Concealed Carry Permit Holders

-Any talk of a gun ban in America is a fast track to not being taken seriously, especially as gun crime rises in Europe where guns are outlawed. Gun bans don't eliminate gun crime? Who would have thought?

-[/URL]I do not support cartridge limits. That's an easy way to make people into criminals. Let's say you have a license to carry and you drive from one state to another for business (funeral, work, whatever). Your state allows a handgun to have 10 rounds, the next state demands 8. You get stopped because your tail light is out and you warn the officer that you have a license to carry and that it is in it's own compartment next to your seat. You hand it over and end up going to jail because your legal right to carry in one state is not seen by another state. This is not a hypothetical. It actually happens. I do not support it when all it does it hurt peaceful citizens following the law. Source: https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...state-lines/PUSIXRJ004J17qbYVH7kAN/story.html

- Most gun deaths in America are not mass shootings. More should be done to limit those deaths (mostly suicides but also gang related deaths in specific hot spots). Limiting mass shooting gun crime obviously takes a different manner of gun control than limiting gang related gun deaths. Not all gun control fits all and it is naive to think so. There is also a link between domestic violence and mass shootings. More should be done to help women in these situations and put their abusers in prison, hopefully limiting mass shootings. There should be a federal policy that helps mentors in the areas that affect young men afflicted by gun crime deescalate the situation and have these gang members disarmed. Source: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/homicide-in-new-orleans/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/suicide-in-wyoming/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/domestic-violence-in-portland/
 

Rex Griswold

Member
Oct 29, 2017
221
Edit:

Oh and I forgot. Anybody who takes umbrage with those saying "Ban all guns" needs to learn to stop being so defensive and how to read between the lines. Most people spouting that are not absolutists and are more than willing to negotiate below a full ban. They are most certainly posting out of a highly emotional state or event whereas they proclaim the simplest solution. If you're so caught up in feeling your guns are being threatened then it's not the 'ban all guns' rhetoric that is shutting down conversation, it's YOU.

I mean in the most respectful way possible, but that's an incredibly disingenuous thing to argue. Claiming that people who become more entrenched in the moron labia mindset are the only problem is patently false. I will never argue that it is solely people in favor of gun control that are at fault, because there are people who start frothing at the mouth and screaming "MY GUNS MY GUNS MY RIGHTS OVER MY DEAD BODY MY COLD DEAD HANDS THEY'RE COMING TO TAKE THE GUNS" at the mention of hey let's talk about gun co...., but you're being willfully or selectively ignorant if you think that the people like the people in this very thread posting things like "BAN ALL GUNS NOW WE'RE COMING TO TAKE YOUR TOYS WE'RE GONNA DO A GUN GRAB" don't exist out of GAF/ERA, or that posts like what I'm parodying aren't being cherry picked and used as 'I told you so!'s, giving that rabid gun nut some credibility to the impressionable gun nut.

In order for this discussion to go somewhere that matters, people on both sides need to stop being caricatures.

Saying that gun owners are unreasonably defensive about emotional states(something that scum like the NRA absolutely loves to use against any form of reasonable control) and simple solutions is irksome. Solutions to complex issues are not simple. The issue is complex, why would anyone who truly wants to think critically think the solution wouldn't be?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,231
I mean in the most respectful way possible, but that's an incredibly disingenuous thing to argue. Claiming that people who become more entrenched in the moron labia mindset are the only problem is patently false.

Edit: Actually I think I misunderstood. So I'll ask for clarification: What the hell does moron labia mindset mean?
 
Oct 26, 2017
865
I mean in the most respectful way possible, but that's an incredibly disingenuous thing to argue. Claiming that people who become more entrenched in the moron labia mindset are the only problem is patently false. I will never argue that it is solely people in favor of gun control that are at fault, because there are people who start frothing at the mouth and screaming "MY GUNS MY GUNS MY RIGHTS OVER MY DEAD BODY MY COLD DEAD HANDS THEY'RE COMING TO TAKE THE GUNS" at the mention of hey let's talk about gun co...., but you're being willfully or selectively ignorant if you think that the people like the people in this very thread posting things like "BAN ALL GUNS NOW WE'RE COMING TO TAKE YOUR TOYS WE'RE GONNA DO A GUN GRAB" don't exist out of GAF/ERA, or that posts like what I'm parodying aren't being cherry picked and used as 'I told you so!'s, giving that rabid gun nut some credibility to the impressionable gun nut.

In order for this discussion to go somewhere that matters, people on both sides need to stop being caricatures.

Saying that gun owners are unreasonably defensive about emotional states(something that scum like the NRA absolutely loves to use against any form of reasonable control) and simple solutions is irksome. Solutions to complex issues are not simple. The issue is complex, why would anyone who truly wants to think critically think the solution wouldn't be?

Mmm. Not all people who want more gun laws want guns banned, but many of these people clearly have an anti-gun bias that paints guns in a very, very bad light to the point where they much do want to see them banned. Let's not pretend that many anti-gun very much do want them banned. Politicians like Bloomberg who have dumped millions into anti-gun campaigns preside in places like NYC where it is almost illegal to own a gun and nearly impossible to obtain one legally.

So what are people supposed to think? There have been even people in this thread who say they don't want bans, just regulations, and then hope these regulations will lead to a ban. Many people very much dot really a boogeyman, some liberals paint it to be, but it's also not the same exact way conservative pro-gunners make it out to be either.
 

Rex Griswold

Member
Oct 29, 2017
221
Yeah I'm sure they're the problem and not the person saying 'moron labia mindset'. Haha. Talk about disingenuous.

I appreciate your snark, but I'm honest enough not to hide the immense disdain I have for certain parts of the gun community. Particularly for the more intense parts of the 'molon labe' crowd who insist that there's only you're for gun ownership or you're for jackbooted gun grabbing commandos.

Kinda like how there's the group who think any gun owner is a hardcore conservative who fantasize about castle doctrine or whatever, and wishes they could just gun down minorities in the streets with their automatic clipazine fed AK-16 assault rifles and glockteen eleven assault pistols.

Feel free to look at my posts with contempt, but there is truth in them.
 

XMonkey

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,827
The flipside to that is a lot of gun advocates think any little added regulation is a slippery slope to a full ban and they dismiss more common sense proposals outright because of that fear.

It goes both ways.
 
Oct 26, 2017
865
The flipside to that is a lot of gun advocates think any little added regulation is a slippery slope to a full ban and they dismiss more common sense proposals outright because of that fear.

It goes both ways.

Unfortunately, most of these proposals aren't "common sense" because most of the people suggesting them know nothing about guns.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,231

Tiger Priest

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,120
New York, NY
So far I've heard that a position of banning all firearms must immediately be taken off the table. Why? Constitutional Amendments have been repealed before and we have an excellent analogous case in Australia that proves that it is effective policy.

To those who said a disarmed populace leads to an oppressed working class, come on. Try taking on the army, which has nukes and MOABs. Guns have nothing to do with personal protection from the state. They are mostly for personal protection from other gun owners, a problem which would be alleviated if we eliminated personal gun ownership. We already restrict deadly arms in the form of nukes and automatic weapons, and I don't think anyone should have a weapon that could easily kill 10-30 people in such a short period of time. Other countries without guns, strangely enough, do not have problems with mass shootings.

You may argue it is bad politics or ineffective politics but so was single-payer seemingly until this year and gay marriage until a few years ago.
 
Oct 26, 2017
865
Appreciate the quick dismissal.

That is not a quick dismissal. It is fact. What even constitutes "common sense"? Banning "silencers"? That's emotional and based off of Hollywood's idea that gun suppressors make firing dead quiet. It's not common sense. It's not even based on fact. Suppressors are banned based on the idea of what they are, not what they actually are.

Let's look at California. They claim they have "common sense" gun laws but ban anything under the sun, from pistol grips (as if a different grip will stop someone from deciding to kill people) to having very expensive license fees most people couldn't hope to afford. I've talked to people who demand semi-automatic guns be banned. When I said,"so you want to ban handguns?" They told me no. Even though most handguns are semi-automatic! If you do not know anything about guns, should you really be arguing what "common sense" actually constitutes? I don't!

Wired had a good article on this and it's a very real problem.

https://www.wired.com/story/guns-nerds/

How do you "debate" or communicate with people on guns who aren't even educated about them? You can't! And thus the cycle continues and California throws anything against the wall to see if it sticks.

Do these look like "common sense" laws to you?

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/10/18/walters-new-state-anti-gun-laws-include-a-real-puzzler/

Can you contend that most rhetoric by anti-gunners is entirely emotional and without base knowledge in firearms?
 

XMonkey

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,827
You made the same point I did except about a different group of people in this debate and you immediately went "nuh-uh! there are no common sense proposals because you're all dumb!" when I'm simply trying to point out people on both sides of the debate do what you describe. Good job proving my point.

And hell no I'm not going to contend that it's only gun control advocates arguing from emotion. What a naive thing to even suggest. Get back to me when you stop thinking gun control advocates are all ignorant.
 
Oct 26, 2017
865
I never suggested that it's only gun control advocates who plead through emotion. Can you quote me on that? Because I never said it. I also never said all gun control advocates are ignorant. It seems all I can get in this thread is a bunch of assumptions. I was wrong to even bother.
 

Vilix

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,055
Texas
So far I've heard that a position of banning all firearms must immediately be taken off the table. Why? Constitutional Amendments have been repealed before and we have an excellent analogous case in Australia that proves that it is effective policy.

Because America is not Australia. It's not the U.K. It's not like any other country on earth. To amend our constitution the Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

It takes a lot to amend our constitution. And, if the second amendment is some how overturned then what's to say that we put regulations on free speech and freedom of expression? Amending amendments tugs at the very essence of freedoms of our country.
 

XMonkey

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,827
Mmm. Not all people who want more gun laws want guns banned, but many of these people clearly have an anti-gun bias that paints guns in a very, very bad light to the point where they much do want to see them banned. Let's not pretend that many anti-gun very much do want them banned. Politicians like Bloomberg who have dumped millions into anti-gun campaigns preside in places like NYC where it is almost illegal to own a gun and nearly impossible to obtain one legally.

So what are people supposed to think? There have been even people in this thread who say they don't want bans, just regulations, and then hope these regulations will lead to a ban. Many people very much dot really a boogeyman, some liberals paint it to be, but it's also not the same exact way conservative pro-gunners make it out to be either.
I interpreted this as you saying it's hard to blame gun advocates for being emotional because liberals want total bans. I was trying to point out that it's hard to blame gun control advocates for being emotional too when a lot of us just want some kind of reform and it doesn't have to be all guns but then we get it back in our face that we really just secretly want a total ban in the end. If I interpreted that wrongly then my mistake.

As for the ignorant bit, when I read things like this:
Unfortunately, most of these proposals aren't "common sense" because most of the people suggesting them know nothing about guns.
Can you contend that most rhetoric by anti-gunners is entirely emotional and without base knowledge in firearms?
You'll have to excuse me for getting that impression I guess.

Both sides of this debate argue from emotion at times. To try and paint one side as more at fault of doing so is ridiculous, IMO.

You can cherry pick your own examples of how ridiculous "common sense" regulation is, but you need to take it up with those people making those arguments as those aren't the ones I made.

Common sense to me are things like universal background check system, universal registration system, higher barriers to ownership. We can't even get that discussion going nowadays.
 

Keyboard

Guest
Let's look at California.
OK.

n1Cr1sx.png

Source: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-laws-stop-at-state-lines-but-guns-dont/

I read your Wired opinionated article, and it basically says, "Let's talk about healthcare, not guns."
 
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phisheep

phisheep

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,817
So far I've heard that a position of banning all firearms must immediately be taken off the table. Why? Constitutional Amendments have been repealed before and we have an excellent analogous case in Australia that proves that it is effective policy.

I said why in my post. It is mostly because it does not contribute to good argument about the *control* of guns (as we can see from the last few pages in this thread for example). Also because it does not seem, in the US, given the extreme political barriers to constitutional amendment, to be remotely feasible at present.

The Australian situation isn't all that analogous to the USA anyway - it's illustrative maybe - and even then it is important to note that Australia has not banned all guns , so it is really bad argument to claim it on the side of banning all guns in the USA, not to mention it pisses off Americans, and they are quite right to be annoyed about it.
 

Firima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,486
Common sense to me are things like universal background check system, universal registration system, higher barriers to ownership. We can't even get that discussion going nowadays.

The thing about higher barriers to ownership is that by calling it a "barrier" and admitting that it is a de facto attempt to make the purchase and usage of a firearm more difficult, you are inviting the courts to rule that you are infringing upon what has been ruled to be a constitutional right. A lot of states, cities, municipalities that have weird tax or zoning rules meant to keep guns out of the hands of otherwise law-abiding citizens, or shall (totally not lol) issue rules that demonstrably keep qualified citizens from owning or carrying often find themselves being admonished by the court system for trying to skirt the rules. Every time some city or state tries to get cute with gun laws and the courts shake their heads, wag their fingers, and send them back home to fix it, there is a resulting and ever-mounting pile of legal precedent that prevents those kinds of laws from ever being instituted through more consensual means.
 

Spectone

Member
Because America is not Australia. It's not the U.K. It's not like any other country on earth. To amend our constitution the Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

It takes a lot to amend our constitution. And, if the second amendment is some how overturned then what's to say that we put regulations on free speech and freedom of expression? Amending amendments tugs at the very essence of freedoms of our country.

You do realise that it is incredibly difficult to modify the constitution in other countries too? People really need to quit with this American Exceptionalism it is not a valid argument.
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
With that out of the way, my stance on the gun control debate. Ideally I imagine a world where people who hunt and enjoy sports shooting can exist while those seeking to harm others are not allowed access to the tools which allow them to maximize that harm - in other words, guns. My personal solution would be to allow home ownership of single-shot or low capacity mag/clip bolt-action long guns. Four rounds would be the maximum capacity I would negotiate for, and honestly if you need that many to take down large game then you need to spend more time at the range. As for every other type of gun - I would outlaw them for home ownership. I would however allow people to purchase other types of guns but require they be held and stored at a qualified range. Then the owner of the gun can go to the range to check out their guns for use before being rechecked with the facility when they leave. If the person moves or needs to find a new range then they need to file the paperwork with the facility to have the arm transported to a new location (done by the ranges and not the firearm owner). Also all gun purchases require a thorough mental health check at the expense of the buyer and/or seller of the firearm.

Now do I think that will ever happen? Almost certainly not. And the main reason isn't the people pushing for control, but the people wanting unfettered access to high-powered, high-capacity firearms that they have no reasonable need of. There is no legitimate reason to own a 10+ round semi-auto rifle outside of the range, so why those types of guns are allowed to leave such locations is beyond me. And for people who feel they need a semi-auto pistol for defense, I am sorry, but that is asinine. Drawing a weapon poses a larger threat to the well-being of yourself and others more than virtually any other situation involving a home-invader, mugger, etc. Those criminals are after money or things, not your life. So pulling a gun out is more likely to get you or a loved one harmed than if you just give what you want and contact the authorities ASAP. Your life isn't worth the risk for some currency or trite trinkets. And for the insane idea that citizen ownership of firearms will somehow prevent the government overstepping its bounds - that'd almost be laughable if it wasn't so sad. The police are better equipped and trained than those subscribing to such buffoonery - let alone the military body of this country. If such a non-plausible scenario were to ever happen you'd be out of it before you know what hit you.

Edit:

Oh and I forgot. Anybody who takes umbrage with those saying "Ban all guns" needs to learn to stop being so defensive and how to read between the lines. Most people spouting that are not absolutists and are more than willing to negotiate below a full ban. They are most certainly posting out of a highly emotional state or event whereas they proclaim the simplest solution. If you're so caught up in feeling your guns are being threatened then it's not the 'ban all guns' rhetoric that is shutting down conversation, it's YOU.

This is the type of control I support. I would go further, and make it so that a person has to be approved for a permit to own a rifle (I.E. they actually do hunt or shoot competitively, or live in an area with dangerous fauna). I think ammunition should be tracked and registered as well, to prevent gangs and whatnot from stockpiling it.

I also do not think an outright ban is feasible this century, nor would i advocate for it at this time.
 

Tiger Priest

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,120
New York, NY
I said why in my post. It is mostly because it does not contribute to good argument about the *control* of guns (as we can see from the last few pages in this thread for example). Also because it does not seem, in the US, given the extreme political barriers to constitutional amendment, to be remotely feasible at present.

The Australian situation isn't all that analogous to the USA anyway - it's illustrative maybe - and even then it is important to note that Australia has not banned all guns , so it is really bad argument to claim it on the side of banning all guns in the USA, not to mention it pisses off Americans, and they are quite right to be annoyed about it.

When engaged in a debate, it is not the responsibility of a debater to avoid upsetting people or to make the conversation "productive" by being "realistic," but rather to argue his or her beliefs logically, forcefully, and respectfully. Speaking about first amendment rights, is it not restricting my rights to say that I am not entitled to my position regardless of its political feasibility? Universal Basic Income is also an unrealistic topic to broach now but people argue for it all the time and it's not an issue.

Secondly, under any logical reading of the second amendment, its defined purpose is to have armed citizenry to participate in a well-trained militia since at the time state militias were often called in lieu of a regular standing army. Since we do not use militias anymore and since we do have a standing army with nukes and MOABs it stands to reason that the defined purpose of the second amendment no longer exists. There is an extremist view that circulates around this country (including by the current Supreme Court) that the "original" purpose of the Amendment is to defend individual gun ownership in all circumstances when its purpose is literally defined in the first clause!

As to the argument that a previous poster gave that removing Amendments is dangerous, I hope you don't like alcohol because you'd still be living under Prohibition. And if you think it's dangerous to amend the constitution at all then I guess we should still allow slavery and have slaves count for 3/5ths of people.
 
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Abstrusity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
CURRENT TOPIC: Which categories of firearms/equipment might be subject to restriction/control?
I think we can all agree that the terms to use here are Revolver, Semi-automatic handgun, bolt-action rifle, semi-automatic rifle.

Suppressors reduce the noise signature, and as decibels are logarithmic, even a few decibels lower can cause much less hearing loss...and make it quiet enough to go unnoticed at longer ranges. Tinnitus is a real risk of firing a weapon indoors and close quarters. Permanent hearing loss is bad, too.

Revolvers are basically what they're going to be. Most will have a revolving chamber with six rounds, and of course, like all guns, varying calibers. You will typically see medium game hunters, for boar, coyotes, etc., carrying one of these in addition to a rifle -- this is because if you miss, graze, or fail to neutralize a boar or coyote, they may charge at you. Boar tusks can gore the arteries right out of your body, so you want something you can QUICKLY use that works almost entirely with barely-moving, mechanical parts. I have literally never seen a revolver misfire.

Semi-automatic handguns are basically "The problem." Most shootings happen with these. Typically single-action on the first fire (put more effort into the first trigger pull), then double action thereafter (less weight on trigger pull) as a safety measure. Capacities range from 8 or so with the larger calibers to 15 or so for the smaller calibers, double-stacked inside the magazine. These have anti-shock mechanics, so dropping them doesn't make them fire (anymore), safeties, both that will lock the trigger and cause it to flail instead of activating its mechanism. This is the weapon of choice for most crimes, most suicides, most self-defense. Easy to handle, easy to hold, and accurate enough at short distances that you don't need to be trained, strong, or precise to neutralize someone. Contrary to what people like to say, a bad guy with a gun isn't likely to be stopped by a good guy with a gun in a public place. Not now, not with more open carry, although more open carry MAY cause fewer public shootings for some types of crimes. I want more research on this.

Bolt-action rifles and shotguns are typically used for hunting, from small game like birds, to deer/moose. The rifles typically use a heavy caliber that will pierce far enough into the animal to break the skin on the other side without passing through the pelt on the other side at a chosen distance. These are unwieldy, though. Working a bolt for a follow-up shot is a pain, especially if you hit a deer but didn't kill it or disable it. Not only do hunters not like to follow them through the forest, they also typically don't want them to suffer, either. This is why semi-automatic rifles are slowly taking over hunting. Shotguns are also used for hunting, from birdshot to buckshot to slugs and just about anywhere in between.

Semi-automatic rifles are used primarily for hunting, as well. You can use the same calibers as bolt-action rifles, but with better capability for follow-up shots. Where before, in my boar example, you'd have wanted to drop your rifle, brandish your revolver, and keep shooting until it stops, you could typically keep shooting until it stops without any movement in between. An AR-15 falls into this category, but so do most rifles used for hunting, with relatively small magazines.

I favor a magazine maximum of 15. This halves your typical 30-round magazine in something like an AR-15, doesn't impact those who use rifles that don't quite look, but still act exactly the same, as an AR-15, doesn't impact police work, or handgun usage, They can still be used for hunting with minimal additional load, while maximizing the downtime of any active shooter, since we can't exactly stop them with gun legislation alone. There will be some push-back, but I think a well-reasoned argument from a a hunter might be able to get it across. No extra riders, no frills, just this is what we'd like, this is as far as we'll go on this, etc. We lose the PR war by acting when we don't know what the fuck we're talking about. We don't need another "You mean the shoulder thing that goes up?" moment. We don't need people dropping "fully semi-automatic assault guns" on the floor of the Senate. You know what that makes you look like? Like Inhofe throwing a snowball on the floor of the Senate.

Bump stocks should fall into "modifications" that make a gun automatic. It is effectively the same. You pull the trigger once, and the recoil feeds another cartridge and activates the same mechanic a trigger pull does, firing that cartridge, and loading another, and so on. It might be fun, but it is effectively automatic fire. HOWEVER, because they exist in the wild right now, and taking them from people will prove difficult at best, we should grandfather the ones that exist, and add them to AWB legislation ALONE. Heavy tax stamp for transfer, pricing them out of the hands of the great majority of people.

Suppressors are pretty fine where they are. A tax stamp, generally low availability. They'd be nice to have for home-defense, and the harm they'd cause is mostly exaggerated from my point of view. Because of how it interacts with a bullet, range, velocity are reduced, and their weight makes handguns unwieldy for anything outside of close quarters, where they'd mostly be used, anyway. I realize that the lower decibels might make it harder to say "that's a gun," but there are very few NFA items used in crime, and they ALL need to be registered with the ATF, with, if I'm not mistaken, an extra background check added onto it, plus re-registering it every so often, AND having to re-register it on transfer.
 

Chrome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
378
To those who said a disarmed populace leads to an oppressed working class, come on. Try taking on the army, which has nukes and MOABs. Guns have nothing to do with personal protection from the state.

It's not about who would win in a fight, it's about being able to set up a prolonged conflict. It's highly unlikely that in any case of civilian revolt that nuclear weapons would be used. Cases like Syria show that the such conflicts are not one sided and can be maintained for years, causing long term damage to government authority and organization. A well armed populace acts as insurance that the government inherently acts according to the will of the people. It acts as a bargaining chip and this has historically worked well for the masses. Examine the early Roman Republic. If the farmers, who were the bulk of the Roman military at the time, felt that they were being mistreated (in this case, more and more farmland was coming under the control of the wealthy as farmers sold themselves into debt slavery), they could refuse to serve and cause widespread societal collapse. Likewise, a well armed populace insures that the people could do the same if deemed necessary. A few people holed up in some wildlife refuge may not be enough to topple a government, but the US has enough guns to arm anyone with a pulse. If some sort of action was taken to cause just 10% to revolt, you would have a major problem on your hands. And then you could factor in how willing the military would be to fire upon US citizens, at which point internal pressure begins to start, and dissent within the government itself begins to spread.

CURRENT TOPIC: Which categories of firearms/equipment might be subject to restriction/control?

Ideally, no such weaponry would be banned. Heavy weaponry would just be subject to longer vetting processes.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,250
CURRENT TOPIC: Which categories of firearms/equipment might be subject to restriction/control?

Cheap handguns are by far the biggest problem.

It will face a lot of pushback but a national registry of handguns is the only way I see to cut down on straw purchasing.

Failure to report a "lost" or "stolen" handgun immediately will face a fine and loss of purchasing ability. Reporting more than 1-2 lost/stolen guns a year and you lose your right to own weapons. Limit purchases to 1 handgun per month.

As for the AR side of the problem, I don't see as much as an issue with straw purchases. I think a yearly certification / check in / inspection could work to make sure you are not going crazy, are storing the weapon properly, are not a terrorist.

Basically everything is legal but much more tightly monitored and controlled to make sure people aren't handing guns over to criminals or plotting a massacre.
 

Violence Jack

Drive-in Mutant
Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,956
Not gonna lie, with every one of these mass shootings and any mention of improved gun legislation continuing to be treated as an insult to the NRA-loving GOP members of the House and Senate, the more I seriously consider moving my family out of the US. I just keep holding on to the hope that our gun issues will be answered one day.
 
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phisheep

phisheep

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,817
When engaged in a debate, it is not the responsibility of a debater to avoid upsetting people or to make the conversation "productive" by being "realistic," but rather to argue his or her beliefs logically, forcefully, and respectfully. Speaking about first amendment rights, is it not restricting my rights to say that I am not entitled to my position regardless of its political feasibility? Universal Basic Income is also an unrealistic topic to broach now but people argue for it all the time and it's not an issue.

This point was bound to come up at some stage, so I'm glad you raised it early.

It depends really what the debate is for. If it is merely for airing views then of course you'd be right. If, as I hope, we can make it about sharing views and trying to reach at least some common ground, then positions that merely annoy the other side are unhelpful. It's not like you're giving up anything substantial by ceding a point for the sake of argument - this is just a debate on an internet forum after all. Besides, being as I'm not the government and not even American, First Amendment doesn't apply to me ;-)

Secondly, under any logical reading of the second amendment, its defined purpose is to have armed citizenry to participate in a well-trained militia since at the time state militias were often called in lieu of a regular standing army. Since we do not use militias anymore and since we do have a standing army with nukes and MOABs it stands to reason that the defined purpose of the second amendment no longer exists. There is an extremist view that circulates around this country (including by the current Supreme Court) that the "original" purpose of the Amendment is to defend individual gun ownership in all circumstances when its purpose is literally defined in the first clause!

As to the argument that a previous poster gave that removing Amendments is dangerous, I hope you don't like alcohol because you'd still be living under Prohibition. And if you think it's dangerous to amend the constitution at all then I guess we should still allow slavery and have slaves count for 3/5ths of people.

Constitutional jurisprudence around the second amendment is of course an important thing here, and something we'll need to get to if the thread lasts long enough. Not something I want to get into right now though - as the discussion will be easier to handle and to follow if we take one thing at a time.
 
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phisheep

phisheep

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,817
CURRENT TOPIC: Which categories of firearms/equipment might be subject to restriction/control?

I'm glad people are picking up on this topic. It's something where there seem to be disagreements (between Americans familiar with guns, not just us interloper Europeans ;-) ). We've had so far Fiction and nemoral arguing for restrictions to all but long hunting guns, Himuro arguing passionately in favour of handguns, and someone else - can't remember who, arguing for taking handguns out altogether.

(Sorry if I mischaracterised anyone's position. I've taken some fairly scraggy notes on the thread so far, and this morning I can't read all my own writing. Must do better.)

Let's run with this and see where we get to in the next day or so. One thing we have in our favour here is the time to take the discussion slowly - it's not like the issues are going to go away of their own accord any time soon.
 

Finjitzu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
119
SK Canada
Banning ALL guns is kinda crazy to have to resort to. Society really can't stop killing each other? The only way to stop it is to remove all weapons? I feel like the problem is really something deeper. Even if the government takes all the guns, improvised firearms are still a thing and all over the internet.

Not really here to debate though. It's a super complicated issue to sort out. If it's really something that you believe you can help with, go out and organise. Use all this debating energy somewhere on site, do something. I wish there were threads about how people are protesting at NRA meetings, gun shows, Trump rallies, outside court houses, etc. than debates about it online.

Debating shit on here, Twitter and Facebook does just as much as thoughts and prayers.
 

Tiger Priest

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,120
New York, NY
This point was bound to come up at some stage, so I'm glad you raised it early.

It depends really what the debate is for. If it is merely for airing views then of course you'd be right. If, as I hope, we can make it about sharing views and trying to reach at least some common ground, then positions that merely annoy the other side are unhelpful. It's not like you're giving up anything substantial by ceding a point for the sake of argument - this is just a debate on an internet forum after all. Besides, being as I'm not the government and not even American, First Amendment doesn't apply to me ;-)

Let's be honest, we're on a leftist internet forum so we're mostly just preaching to the choir. I will cede that guns cannot currently be banned in the United States but I would like us to work together to achieve that end goal and too often things like bump stock bans (which didn't even happen!) can be used to put that end goal out of mind. The most important thing is to change the President and somehow recover the Supreme Court to end this extremist interpretation of the 2nd Amendment that prevents state and local governments from implementing bans that are the clear will of their citizens. Of course I support all half-measures on the Federal level but I agree that any action is politically unfeasible unless we have, as Bernie says, a political revolution.

In other words, all of these debates we're having on these issues are pointless while we still live under Republican majorities. To counter the NRA's influence we need not just Democratic majorities, but STRONG Democratic majorities and even supermajorities if we ever hope to amend the constitution. If you care at all about these issues, that's the goal we all need to be focused on.