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Deleted member 12790

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It was called Dream Library, and was a part of your japanese Sega.net account. DreamLibrary allowed users to purchase and manage Sega Genesis and PC Engine games online. Once a game was purchased, it was tied to your account and could be infinitely redownloaded. Additionally, games could also be rented for a few days at a reduced cost. Because of the lack of permanent storage on the Dreamcast (a zip drive was announced but never released), games had to be redownloaded every time they were played, as only one could reside in RAM at a time.

Funnily enough, the emulator used for the Genesis titles in this was not the same as the emulator used in the US Sega Smash Pack release.

The Service started in May 2001 and ended February 1st 2003. Around 80 titles hit the service, about half being Genesis games and half being PC Engine games.

The Dreamcast was truly ahead of its time.
 

peppermints

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,667
I had no idea. Neat! Stuff like this and Sega Channel are fascinating to me.

Are there any videos of this floating around or is it all lost to time?
 
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Deleted member 12790

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I had no idea. Neat! Stuff like this and Sega Channel are fascinating to me.

Are there any videos of this floating around or is it all lost to time?

Screen%2BShot%2B2017-11-23%2Bat%2B21.14.37.png


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsI5v_xltIQ

The actual PCE and Genesis emulators have also been found and released.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,115
Do you know who made the emulator? Was Sega Smash Pack the one where they licensed it from homebrew emulator developers? Or am I thinking of the GBA compilation of the same name?
 

Lindsay

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,138
Sounds like something game magazines woulda had some mention of back then an that I woulda heard about it through there but nopes! This is news to me! Games having to be redownloaded each an every time had ta suck an reminds me of the gba e-reader. Thats alot of purchases down the drain huh? How were save files handled?
 
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Deleted member 12790

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Do you know who made the emulator? Was Sega Smash Pack the one where they licensed it from homebrew emulator developers? Or am I thinking of the GBA compilation of the same name?

The licensed emulator you are talking about is Kega98/KGen98 from Steve Snake, which was used in the Windows 95 release of the Smash Pack. The Dreamcast copy of the Smash Pack was written by Gary Lake as contracted development by SOA. The Japanese emulator's author is unknown, and it was developed in-house at SOJ..

How were save files handled?

Genesis saves are usually, at most, a few bytes big. As such, they fit normally onto a VMU. All PC Engine games that save use passwords.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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For this matter, I wonder how many people realize that the Dreamcast had DLC available at launch.
 

CO_Andy

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Oct 25, 2017
2,522
Classic Sega never ceases to amaze me in their visual and audio design and foresight in technology.
 

Soul Skater

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Oct 25, 2017
10,201
Did you also know that, when you played the dreamcast online, and someone else on the other end was kicking your ass, it was Fred Durst ?
 
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Deleted member 12790

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Did you know that the Dreamcast version of Quake 3 not only supported keyboard and mouse controls, but also supported online cross-play with both Windows and Linux?
 

ASaiyan

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Oct 25, 2017
7,228
SEGA was always lightyears ahead of their time technologically. They invented a streaming game service (Sega Channel), cross-game content (Sonic & Knuckles), online console multiplayer (SegaNet), a controller with a screen (DreamCast), and a handheld-console hybrid (Sega Nomad) well before anyone else, and probably even more stuff I don't know about. So it doesn't surprise me at all that they invented the Virtual Console.

Did you know that the Dreamcast version of Quake 3 not only supported keyboard and mouse controls, but also supported online cross-play with both Windows and Linux?
Here's another one. They did cross-platform multiplayer first too, huh.

Man, imagine the crazy stuff they might've had in the pipeline that we never got to see because the DreamCast went bust...
 
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Deleted member 12790

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Did you know that, like the Sega Saturn and Sony Playstation, and unlike the N64 and virtually every console since, the Sega Dreamcast did not have a Z-Buffer, nor did it need to do frustum culling? Nor did it do rasterization. Its graphics core behaves pretty much unlike any other console since or ever. It used what is called Deferred Tile-based rendering.

To understand the difference, you need to understand what rasterization works, and to understand that you need to know a bit about how 3D graphics primitives work. At their base level, 3D primitives are just groups of 3 to 4 points in space called vertices, which reside in memory. How these points are turned into graphics on screen depends on the implementation. Typically, this is through a process called rasterization, where each 3 or 4 points in memory is turned into a series of pixels to be held in memory. So each "polygon" has every single pixel that makes up said polygon calculated and residing in memory, even if 99% of those pixels are offscreen or behind other objects and thus will never be seen. This actually is an enormous waste of resources.

The way the Dreamcast's PowerVR2 core works is entirely different. When verticies are sent to VRAM from main ram, they undergo a process called binning where the PVR2's tile accelerator chops the screen up into square spaces. If a vertex resides in the area of one of those spaces, it is placed into a bin of similar vertexes. These screen-space tiles are always drawn in the same position on the screen regardless of vertices present. This is accomplished by a form of raycasting from the position of the camera to the spaces the tiles reside at using a fixed calculation that is translated around the screen. By raycasting out from the position of the camera, it ensures the only pixels ever created on the screen are for polygons that are in front, and visible on the screen. No extra pixels are ever drawn. This gives the dreamcast, essentially, infinite fill rate, and makes it punch way, way above its weight in terms of graphics.

To explain a bit better with pixtures, imagine the following screen space, with the following 3 vertices present:

jYpg6LQ.png


For the purpose of this example, we divide the screen space up into 4 square bins. Rather than rendering the entire triangle at once through rasterization, it would instead be drawn in tiled steps like so:

hnM9H69.png


To make this make a bit more sense, imagine we moved those vertices around so that only 1 square tile had visible pixels. In the end, this is all that would be rendered:

e9YMbAj.png


9nwx2ZY.png


w3soL8e.png


ywi71Jl.png
 

RayCharlizard

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Nov 2, 2017
2,986
Dreamcast was so ahead of its time.

Did you know that the Dreamcast version of Quake 3 not only supported keyboard and mouse controls, but also supported online cross-play with both Windows and Linux?

I did know this one, I played it as a kid! I had a PC that could run Quake 3 decently and a Dreamcast, and friends and I would play together on the Dreamcast maps. I actually didn't even know it worked until I loaded into a map on PC that I didn't recognize and learned it was in the Dreamcast copy.

https://archive.org/details/dcmappack
 
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Deleted member 12790

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SEGA was always lightyears ahead of their time technologically. They invented a streaming game service (Sega Channel), cross-game content (Sonic & Knuckles), online console multiplayer (SegaNet), a controller with a screen (DreamCast), and a handheld-console hybrid (Sega Nomad) well before anyone else, and probably even more stuff I don't know about. So it doesn't surprise me at all that they invented the Virtual Console.


Here's another one. They did cross-platform multiplayer first too, huh.

Man, imagine the crazy stuff they might've had in the pipeline that we never got to see because the DreamCast went bust...

You know that, when the Dreamcast died, they were essentially creating the Wiimote, right?

dcwii.jpg


It was intended to be used for NiGHTS 2. It was a pointer-based motion controller. Gunvalkyrie on the Xbox was originally a Dreamcast game, which would have used this motion controller in one hand with a normal dreamcast pad in the other hand, and would have controlled like Metroid Prime 3 on the Wii.
 

ASaiyan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,228
You know that, when the Dreamcast died, they were essentially creating the Wiimote, right?

dcwii.jpg


It was intended to be used for NiGHTS 2. It was a pointer-based motion controller. Gunvalkyrie on the Xbox was originally a Dreamcast game, which would have used this motion controller in one hand with a normal dreamcast pad in the other hand, and would have controlled like Metroid Prime 3 on the Wii.
I thought I remembered SEGA inventing the Wiimote as well, but I couldn't place the source. Here it is though. They really were operating several years into the future at any given time.
 

starfox

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Oct 28, 2017
1,341
Portugal
Did you know that, like the Sega Saturn and Sony Playstation, and unlike the N64 and virtually every console since, the Sega Dreamcast did not have a Z-Buffer, nor did it need to do frustum culling? Nor did it do rasterization. Its graphics core behaves pretty much unlike any other console since or ever. It used what is called Deferred Tile-based rendering.

To understand the difference, you need to understand what rasterization works, and to understand that you need to know a bit about how 3D graphics primitives work. At their base level, 3D primitives are just groups of 3 to 4 points in space called vertices, which reside in memory. How these points are turned into graphics on screen depends on the implementation. Typically, this is through a process called rasterization, where each 3 or 4 points in memory is turned into a series of pixels to be held in memory. So each "polygon" has every single pixel that makes up said polygon calculated and residing in memory, even if 99% of those pixels are offscreen or behind other objects and thus will never be seen. This actually is an enormous waste of resources.
aka PowerVR and how it was all the rage back then vs dedicated 3D graphics cards.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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I thought I remembered SEGA inventing the Wiimote as well, but I couldn't place the source. Here it is though. They really were operating several years into the future at any given time.

Did you know that the dreameye - the webcam only available in japan, has extra hardware inside that is never used? It was intended to allow developers to do basic motion tracking ala the Playstation Eyetoy or Microsoft Kinect (albeit without depth sensing, just basic outline detection). The console obviously died before that happened, and as such, the camera only ever released in Japan.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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aka PowerVR and how it was all the rage back then vs dedicated 3D graphics cards.

PowerVR is only the rendering chip. The Dreamcast graphics core is known as Holly, and the Tile Accelerator is a custom design that belongs to Sega. Actually, learning how the Tile Accelerator works has been extremely difficult and on-going in dreamcast dev scenes for years, because no official documentation exists to ordinary people. Everything we know about how the TA works, we've figured out by scowering leaked reference manuals.
 

ss_lemonade

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Oct 27, 2017
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One of my favorite dreamcast features was downloading save files off the internet and storing them straight into your VMU/memory card
 

Creepy Woody

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Nov 11, 2017
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Sega pioneered some amazing ideas with their hardware every generation. They were always ahead of the time pushing stuff the world just wasn't ready for yet I guess.
 

ss_lemonade

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Oct 27, 2017
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It was intended to be used for NiGHTS 2. It was a pointer-based motion controller. Gunvalkyrie on the Xbox was originally a Dreamcast game, which would have used this motion controller in one hand with a normal dreamcast pad in the other hand, and would have controlled like Metroid Prime 3 on the Wii.
Interesting. I knew that Gunvalkyrie was originally going to be on the Dreamcast, but I thought it was going to be controlled with a controller and a light gun at the same time.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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Interesting. I knew that Gunvalkyrie was originally going to be on the Dreamcast, but I thought it was going to be controlled with a controller and a light gun at the same time.

That was also a plan. The game underwent a ton of changes in development. Sadly, the version we wound up getting on the Xbox is the worst of them all. Especially since the Xbox also had a light gun and could have translated that concept, too.
 

jsnepo

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Oct 28, 2017
4,648
Didn't the PS2 has some sort of game download service in Japan too? I think it was the BB Navigator or something.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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Did you know that the dreamcast has built-in hardware for compression? It has a dedicated vector quantization unit to decompress textures on the fly in memory. With VQ, you can get as much as 32x compression which, when coupled with the Dreamcast's 8 mb of VRAM, would give you the equivalent of 256 mb of VRAM for textures, with only slight artifacts.

Also, did you know that you can expand a stock dreamcast's VRAM to 16 mb? 32 mb on naomi units. 64 on Naomi 2s.
 
Oct 30, 2017
9,230
The Dreamcast was really a console aheads of it's time... I still can't believe it failed after all these years still hard for me to process :-(

They didn't deserve that fate at all....
 

out_of_touch

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Oct 25, 2017
3,684
You know that, when the Dreamcast died, they were essentially creating the Wiimote, right?

dcwii.jpg


It was intended to be used for NiGHTS 2. It was a pointer-based motion controller. Gunvalkyrie on the Xbox was originally a Dreamcast game, which would have used this motion controller in one hand with a normal dreamcast pad in the other hand, and would have controlled like Metroid Prime 3 on the Wii.

Wasn't Gunvalkriye supposed to be a lightgun + standard controller combo at some point as well?

Air NiGHTS </3
 
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Deleted member 12790

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did you know that the Sega Dreamcast controller has two buttons that are unused? There are no contact points for them on the board, but the interface for the controller has two additional buttons - X and Z. Only the sega arcade stick featured these buttons, where they'd be recognized by name (aka actually as X and Z, not a repeat of L and R) in game.

This makes sense, because the Dreamcast controller port is essentially the same as the Saturn controller port, to the point where the Saturn 3D gamepad works on the Dreamcast home menu.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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Good thread. So how does the in house emulator compare?

It has far superior audio to the one we got in the smash pack. It's quite an accomplishment, actually. Runs smoother in more games, too. Makes sense given it was likely developed completely in-house, rather than being contracted out like the SOA version.

speaking of the SOA version of Smash Pack, the author of the emulator officially leaked info to Echelon, the piracy group that cracked dreamcast games, so they could rip the emulator and release it online. Since Dreamcast games can't be read in normal CDRom Drives, it's not too obvious, but if you network a dreamcast to a PC and browse the disc, you'll find a file called Echelon.txt in the root. Inside is the following:

To whomever releases this pack..

Let me give you a few bits of info:

- I emulate a U.S. Genesis, including territory lock-out.
- ".sga" files are standard Genesis/Megadrive ".bin" files renamed.
- The emulator is looking for some parameters to be passed via Ginsu.
If you don't know what that is, you'll figure it out:

MDE_US.BIN ALTBEAST.SGA MODE2 SKIP0 SOUND0

MODE0 = standard, fastest video mode settings
MODE1 = slower, supports some extra features
MODE2 = slowest, includes window layers (used by some games)
MODE4 = same as MODE0 with background skewing

SKIP0 = no sprite skipping until maximum reached
SKIP1 = moderate sprite skipping, used to prevent major slowdown
SKIP2 = maximum sprites skipped

SOUND0 = standard sound emulation
SOUND1 = sound tempo increased

And don't forget to pay your respects to Uncle Sonic.
Sony just doesn't get it.

- Gary

The final line which says "Respect uncle sonic" is why the Echelon release notes for the Genesis emulator says this:

Miscellaneous Notes:

- Yes, this pack is based off an emulator that Sega coded.

- The emulator requires a lot of tweaking to get games that are not
included on this pack to run correctly.

- If we have time for it, we will probably do this tweaking over
the next few days and release a menu system to launch your own
ROM's and burn them to a CD.

- For all of those wondering, the DC console that comes with this
pack (when you buy it!) DOES play MIL CD's / copies.

- You will all probably be wondering how to exit out of a game once
you start it, simply press A+B+X+Y simultaneously, then hit Start
to return back to the menu system.

- Regards to Uncle Sonic for his help, you know for what!

NOTE: Even though it says it's based off of the emulator that "sega wrote," he does not mean the dream library emulator (which released after the smash pack).
 

Nacho

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Oct 25, 2017
8,124
NYC
Problem with Sega was they always spread themselves too thin to support all their cool innovations. They didn't really jive on a macro level. See the pics of Sega CD/32x/knuckles etc all plugged in together to see that in effect. All those within a couple of years...

Honestly though the Dreamcast seemed to be where they were hitting their stride, but by then it was too late.honestly Nintendo can fall into similar ruts but thankfully usually pulls themselves out or knows when to quit and tighten focus.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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See the pics of Sega CD/32x/knuckles etc all plugged in together to see that in effect.

That pic is hyperbole. None of that stuff would even turn on. The base of everything that it's connected to in that picture is the power base converter, meaning literally nothing above it is even plugged in. It's simply resting on the slot.
 

Soul Unison

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Oct 25, 2017
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SEGA was an amazing company whose overzealousness was their downfall.

They were the true counterpart to Nintendo, favoring unique and novel play experiences over raw power and pixels.
 

Nacho

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That pic is hyperbole. None of that stuff would even turn on. The base of everything that it's connected to in that picture is the power base converter, meaning literally nothing above it is even plugged in. It's simply resting on the slot.
Yeah that's my point exactly. They were always all over the place with their innovations in a way where they weren't building on each other, made for a confusing mess of Sega stuff that made it difficult for a normal consumer to latch onto.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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Yeah that's my point exactly. They were always all over the place with their innovations in a way where they weren't building on each other, made for a confusing mess of Sega stuff that made it difficult for a normal consumer to latch onto.

I had it all as a kid, I didn't particularly find it hard to latch onto, but then again I was probably more die hard of a sega fan than 99% of the population.

I got every single piece of Sega hardware as they released in the US. From Master System til Dreamcast.

That includes things like the Nomad, Sega Channel, the 3D glasses, the netlink adapter, and even exotic things like the Dimond Edge 3D NV-1 Sega PC card.
 

retroman

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Oct 31, 2017
3,056
Lots of really interesting info in this thread. Thanks for sharing!

Now I have even more reasons to feel sad about Sega dropping out of the hardware race :(
 

Beef Stallmer

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Oct 27, 2017
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Did you know that Sega had a VMU + MP3 player in the works?

320px-Vmump3.jpg


This was announced before the Ipod.

There were already 8 megabyte MP3 players on the market with terrible interfaces.
The thing with iPod was that it was a well designed 5GB 'mp3' player with an excellent interface that didn't look like a cheap plastic toy; that had never been done before.

Having said that, dreamcast really was ahead of it's time. I like how clean the video output was compared to PS2.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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There were already 8 megabyte MP3 players on the market with terrible interfaces.
The thing with iPad was that it was a well designed 5GB 'mp3' player with an excellent interface that didn't look like a cheap plastic toy; that had never been done before.

Having said that, dreamcast really was ahead of it's time. I like how clean the video output was compared to PS2.

Yeah, there were MP3 players on the market (the reason I drooled over the VMU is because I'd been wanting one at that point for years) but they were expensive. As important as the ipod's design was, it was also being perceived as valuable that drove it. I.E. it was worth the money.

The difference from the VMU above? Sega claimed it was trying to target a sub-$50 price point. That would have been absolutely insane at the time. Granted, they also said they would hold about 3-4 songs. But still.
 

Encephalon

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Oct 26, 2017
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The Dreamcast is a really interesting system. I have heard about the "doesn't render stuff off screen" and "they planned to release a motion controller for the Dreamcast." stuff. Sony appeared to have been working on the latter roughly around the same time or after. I don't like it quite as much as my Saturn, mainly because the Japanese support seemed to all but vanish with the transition to the new console and I prefer Sega's first party efforts on the Saturn, but I appreciate what's there and it's my go to console for Resident Evil 2.

It's too bad that for some reason, the volume of the disc drives for the console in Japan seem to be otherwordly. I think I might have to buy an American console just to avoid a disc drive that isn't louder than the game. I'm hoping to play Skies of Arcadia again soon, but if it's anything like Grandia II, it might read from the disc a bit too often to enjoy.