Digital Foundry: Marvel's Spider-Man - The 60fps Dream - Plus What To Expect from PS5 Spider-Man: Miles Morales!

[darthkarki]

No I mean how can you turn down some settings on the same PC and go from 30fps to 60fps?

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Because your CPU is sitting at 50% or less utilization when it is running at 30fps. It's sitting there doing nothing half of the time. For simplicity's sake, the options you are adjusting pretty much only affect the GPU. So when you make less work for the GPU, it can pump out frames faster, and since the CPU wasn't doing anything anyways, it can pump out more frames too.

That's exactly the point though: the CPU wasn't being used. If your CPU was actually being utilized 100%, you could reduce the resolution from 4k to 480p and the framerate wouldn't go up at all, your GPU would be sitting there doing nothing waiting for the CPU.

So in order to have a "60fps mode" on a console, in the "30fps mode" the developer can only really utilize half of the CPU power, because it needs to be able to run the game twice as fast.

 

[ss_lemonade]

Everytime I've posted about interpolation people just say the same stuff.

I've finished many games on console with 50% interpolation on a Sony Bravia TV and the increase in imput lag is barely noticeable.

With 50% interpolation the game doesn't have any artifacts or judder and looks really close to the real 60 fps.

I've finished Horizon.. TLOU 2 and God of War on the highest difficulties with interpolation at 50%. Is actually perfectly playable and always depends on the interpolation quality and base imput lag of your tv.

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I don't know what to say to that. I have a Bravia w900a and a Samsung KS9000 and the input lag introduced by motion interpolation on both TVs is incredibly high (and not just something like an added 10ms difference over game mode, which I can still handle). Unless there are Sony TVs that have a special game mode with motion interpolation, afaik only new Samsung sets are able to do this and keep input lag at a playable level.

 

[LebGuns]

Because your CPU is sitting at 50% or less utilization when it is running at 30fps. It's sitting there doing nothing half of the time. For simplicity's sake, the options you are adjusting pretty much only affect the GPU. So when you make less work for the GPU, it can pump out frames faster, and since the CPU wasn't doing anything anyways, it can pump out more frames too.

That's exactly the point though: the CPU wasn't being used. If your CPU was actually being utilized 100%, you could reduce the resolution from 4k to 480p and the framerate wouldn't go up at all, your GPU would be sitting there doing nothing waiting for the CPU.

So in order to have a "60fps mode" on a console, in the "30fps mode" the developer can only really utilize half of the CPU power, because it needs to be able to run the game twice as fast.

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Gotcha, thanks for the explanation. Perhaps in the games with low(er) CPU utilization, this could perhaps be an option then.

 

[Roshin]

It would be awesome to see Spiderman and bloodborne at 60fps on Ps5.
Hell I wanna see Sony make 60fps the standard moving forward!

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It would be awesome to see anything involving Bloodborne. Anything.

 

[Raide]

Really interesting video, not only for Spiderman but for games in the future. Sony has made a focus around 30fps games but if they can use things like A.I upscaling or DLSS via PS5, that will go a long way to getting to that 60fps mark. The footage of Spiderman looks so much better at 60 that it would be a shame for Sony not to leverage the PS5 tech to get close to that mark.

 

[HStallion]

That's not true.
The success of COD is very much down to how it "feels", and that's entirely down to the framerate. It's why even Battlefield pushed for 60 this gen despite DICE historically prioritising visuals over framerate. If it was a thing they can ignore you wouldn't have so many games in the most played list be 60FPS games.

There is a direct correlation between framerate and majority of the most played games of today being 60FPS, and not recognising that is just wrong.

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Except for all those massive selling games that aren't 60 fps. Your correlation doesn't hold much weight if you ask me.

 

[jpbonadio]

Unpopular opinion:
Keep the game at locked 30fps and as smooth as it already felt in the first game and push visuals and resolution instead. :)

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This is my opinion too.

I hate that most people here act like 60fps should be mandatory to all games, like if everybody would prefer that. I prefer better assets and overall graphics at 30 over 60 fps. And I believe we are not alone.

 

[darthkarki]

Gotcha, thanks for the explanation. Perhaps in the games with low(er) CPU utilization, this could perhaps be an option then.

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Absolutely, I pretty much always use the high-framerate modes when they are available (such as in God of War and Shadow of the Colossus) and I love it. If at all possible, I definitely want the option. :)

I also really want to see some real next-gen stuff with tons of physics and destruction, numerous/advanced AI, fluid simulations, and anything else that push those Zen 2 cores to the limit of 33ms :D

 

[Nooblet]

I don't know what to say to that. I have a Bravia w900a and a Samsung KS9000 and the input lag introduced by motion interpolation on both TVs is incredibly high (and not just something like an added 10ms difference over game mode, which I can still handle). Unless there are Sony TVs that have a special game mode with motion interpolation, afaik only new Samsung sets are able to do this and keep input lag at a playable level.

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It's not really so much about input lag as much as it is about playing a game with the input lag of a 30FPS game while getting visual information similar to 60FPS.

So while things may move like they do in a 60FPS game, the inherent input latency of the game is not like a 60FPS game. And there is quite a big difference between the base input latency in your average 30FPS game vs your average 60FPS games. Partly due to framerate and partly due to Devs that target 60FPS also prioritise targetong as low of an input latency as possible.

 

[Firefly]

The PS5 has VRR support so that's not true anymore.

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Variable 60fps, assuming that means 30-60fps, will still not feel as good as a solid 60fps.

 

[Petran]

I'm willing to bet that the majority of people preaching for 30fps would throw a beach party if sony announced tomorrow a push-all to 60

 

[Jeff ChickenDig]

I do hope developers do offer the option this gen. Especially for these kind of action titles with timing and dodge mechanics, a higher framerate genuinely improves gameplay by a sizeable margin.

I do wonder if graphics are that much marketable these days? Like in terms of sales. Nintendo games still sell gangbusters. I can't imagine spider man miles without huge jump in visuals but run at 60fps to be dinged by the mass market as 'bad looking'

 

[Deleted member 18161]

The more i am watching this, the more i am frustrated that devs are still targeting the bare minimum framerate of 30fps......

Looking at this and sony studios games slate, 60fps dream is still dead.....

And sony studios dev here can clarify why they put performance on such low priority in their games?

And horizon zd pc is gonna be 60fps while if i put in horizon zd ps4 into ps5, it's still 30fps and horizon 2 is also seemingly 30fps too??

Is that really what you want your 1st party games to run on the ps5?

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Developers have twice the time to render a frame at 30fps which means you can render more / better looking geometry and fancier effects at 30fps.

I love 60fps games but Sony first parties really aren't the ones to single out with regards to this.

Almost all of their games are at least 1080p on a base PS4 with a solid 30fps, perfect frame pacing and great controller response times. Spider-Man feels fantastic to play.

Now games that are sub 1080p, drop between 25-30fps, have bad frame pacing and laggy feeling controls are a completely different beast.

I did notice that God of War's unlocked framerate although no where near a locked 60 felt so much better on the Pro though. I guess it's controller response wasn't as good as their usual output.

Hopefully most games next gen offer at least an unlocked framerate mode for those that desire it even if it's not a locked 60.

 

[Ra]

A PC runs a game faster because it is faster. It's a completely different system. That's not what people are asking for: they want a 60fps mode on the same system (the PS5/XSX), not on a different, more powerful system.

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And now you're coming into a world where your consoles actually have super powerful CPUs. Achieving 60fps isn't some kind of wizardry any more.

Welcome to the future.

 

[LumberPanda]

Variable 60fps, assuming that means 30-60fps, will still not feel as good as a solid 60fps.

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Well yeah of course

 

[Negotiator117]

Great video by Rich, hope we get more of these kind of videos. Like to see the TLOU2 running at 60fps what a sight that would be!

 

[sonnyboy]

Maybe I'm in the minority here but I don't like the soap opera effect.

 

[Dead Man Typing]

At the end of the day I trust developers to make the best decisions for their games on console.

If they think the drop to 30fps is worth it, whatever the reasons, I'll judge the game for what it is and not dismiss it for being 30fps.

Maybe Gears 5, Doom Eternal and Resident Evil 2 and 3 have spoiled me but I did notice the 30fps when playing Last of Us. It didn't bother me and the game is so beautiful that I think Naughty Dog made the right decision.

Uncharted 4 was announced as a 60fps game. At some point in development they must have made the comparison: this is what we can do at 60fps, this is what we can do at 30fps. I trust they made that decision based on number of enemies, animation quality, number of interactive objects, scene complexity and a whole host of other factors. You can do a lot more when you have 33ms to render everything versus 16ms.

I'm hoping some of the high profile PS4 30fps games get an option to uncapped the framerate when running on PS5.

 

[Sacrilicious]

And now you're coming into a world where your consoles actually have super powerful CPUs. Achieving 60fps isn't some kind of wizardry any more.

Welcome to the future.

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CPUs have been capable of 60 FPS for a really long time, though. It was always an option with a (pretty big) trade off.

No matter how powerful the baseline is, the vast majority of games targeted 30 FPS. Few developers have sacrificed visual fidelity to go beyond that, and even then usually only for certain games. It's largely a luxury for surplus hardware left for PC and mid/next-gen remasters.

 

[E.Balboa]

It's not unpopular at all. A proper framepaced 30 FPS games is much better than variable 60.

This video was bunch of nothing

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Doesn't have to be variable, you know.

 

[Sanctuary]

Insomniac loves pushing visuals and locking things to 30 FPS to get there. My expectations aren't exactly high in this regard.

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Most AAA game developers love pushing visuals and locking things to 30fps to get there. It's always been like this, and it was extremely unrealistic, and borderline naive to believe things were going to change at all in that regard. Developers that target 60fps are doing so because it's necessary for the feel of the game (Action/Racing), but end up having to make visual sacrifices in order to do so.

BC games might end up being 60fps or higher, but most next-gen AAA games will almost certainly all be 30fps. Indies and specific titles will be higher, but not the norm.

It's not unpopular at all. A proper framepaced 30 FPS games is much better than variable 60.

This video was bunch of nothing

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Variable sucks, and I never understood the appeal, but as it was already stated, it doesn't need to be variable. It just won't look quite as good.

 

[Ra]

CPUs have been capable of 60 FPS for a really long time, though. It was always an option, just one that was rarely taken.

No matter how powerful the baseline is, the vast majority of games targeted 30 FPS. Few developers haven't shown interest in sacrificing visual fidelity to go beyond that (and usually only for certain games). It's largely a luxury for surplus hardware reserved for PC and mid/next-gen remasters.

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But darthkarki was describing PC gamers having powerful CPUs that allow overhead for the GPU load to be decreased, to allowing higher framerates at lower resolutions and graphical settings.

I was simply pointing out that the 8 core/16 thread Ryzen CPUs of the next-gen consoles are going to fall within such scenarios, where the current generation consoles do not.

What you are stating is tangential to what what being discussed.

 

[RivalGT]

I wouldn't want to sacrifice graphics in a SP game for higher frame rate. TLOU2 for example would look like a totally different game at 60 fps on a PS4. Yes there is drawbacks as you get less responsive controls. But at least now the game has a chance to have the same visual fidelity if it's ever ported to a stronger machine like PC or a nextgen console. I do think more 60 fps option will be a thing on nextgen systems, so people can pick what they prefer. Just don't expect it in all games, as some game will fully tax the CPU.

 

[Wavves]

Can't stand how resolution is favored over frames with Sony games. That's where I give Microsoft huge credit this gen. They pushed frames and then resolution even with the XB1X. 30fps as the standard with the PS5 would be a huge disappointment for any company for next gen.

 

[Deleted member 56995]

The games could run at 30 fps and no one but the hardcore players, who are an extreme minority, would care.

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Fortnite even ran at 30fps when it blew up.

 

[Sacrilicious]

But darthkarki was describing PC gamers having powerful CPUs that allow overhead for the GPU load to be decreased, to allowing higher framerates at lower resolutions and graphical settings.

I was simply pointing out that the 8 core/16 thread Ryzen CPUs of the next-gen consoles are going to fall within such scenarios, where the current generation consoles do not.

What you are stating is tangential to what what being discussed.

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Ah, fair enough. Based on just the quoted message and your response I had a different understanding.

I just followed the thread of quotes and it's clear the full discussion was about something else. You can disregard my comment.

 

[RoboPlato]

Damn that offline rendered footage is stunning. I hope that we at least get a PS5 patch with the option for 60fps in the original game. Looks wonderful in motion.

One part of the conversation around resolution and framerate that often gets lost is that 60fps has greater temporal resolution than 30 which limits the impact of dropping the res.

 

[Deleted member 9584]

Can't wait for "filmic" to be the new buzz word that makes a game seem better because it's 30fps. "But it's more filmic, it's better" is something I predict to see a lot of, and that sucks.

 

[Deleted member 19533]

CPUs have been capable of 60 FPS for a really long time, though. It was always an option with a (pretty big) trade off.

No matter how powerful the baseline is, the vast majority of games targeted 30 FPS. Few developers have sacrificed visual fidelity to go beyond that, and even then usually only for certain games. It's largely a luxury for surplus hardware left for PC and mid/next-gen remasters.

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Yes, but we're now getting into the debate of games are becoming too expensive to create these visuals, so should game prices increase?

The answer is no because they're posting record profits. Clearly not an actual issue and just a desire for more money.

That not withstanding, if the development cost was actually getting too high due to the visuals, then going for the higher frame rate would be a better alternative.

 

[Eeyore]

Can't wait for "filmic" to be the new buzz word that makes a game seem better because it's 30fps. "But it's more filmic, it's better" is something I predict to see a lot of, and that sucks.

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There was one person using this logic to defend DP2's framerate as an artistic choice. It's bizarre.

 

[Deleted member 9584]

There was one person using this logic to defend DP2's framerate as an artistic choice. It's bizarre.

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FWIW, I can get behind that. The first game's horrible technical performance added to its allure, in a "this game is so bad it shouldn't exist but I can't stop playing it" kind of way.

Making the performance unbearable and hitchty for no reason is like the video game equivalent of David Lynch making you watch a guy sweep the floor for over two minutes. This time, Nintendo just seems to be in on the joke.

 

[Eeyore]

FWIW, I can get behind that. The first game's horrible technical performance added to its allure, in a "this game is so bad it shouldn't exist but I can't stop playing it" kind of way.

Making the performance unbearable and hitchty for no reason is like the video game equivalent of David Lynch making you watch a guy sweep the floor for over two minutes. This time, Nintendo just seems to be in on the joke.

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I really cannot. The Last Guardian bothered me to no end even on the Pro.

 

[2shd]

Can't wait for "filmic" to be the new buzz word that makes a game seem better because it's 30fps. "But it's more filmic, it's better" is something I predict to see a lot of, and that sucks.

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I roll my eyes at the idea of 30 fps being good for a video game because it looks more "cinematic" or "filmic". I can kinda understand movies at higher frame rates being jarring because it looks more like actors live on a set and it's harder to suspend disbelief in that case. But video games aren't movies. The "soap opera effect" thing is nonsense when you're talking about rendered models.

 

[HeyNay]

One part of the conversation around resolution and framerate that often gets lost is that 60fps has greater temporal resolution than 30 which limits the impact of dropping the res.

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Yep. Almost every 30fps game I've played turns into a blurry mess once you start rotating the camera around. The reason why 60fps feels better is because it offers greater clarity and fidelity when you're actually playing the game. The world feels more solid, and your eye is able to track objects easier as you move around. It's something that can't come across in screen shots. It only feels like a soap opera if you're not used to it. Once you adjust, it's really hard going back to 30.

 

[Deleted member 9584]

I really cannot. The Last Guardian bothered me to no end even on the Pro.

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I'm not talking about big budget games from Sony / Microsoft / Nintendo. I can understand games like BotW running at 30fps because of the tablet hardware, but PS5 has a massive CPU leap over PS4 and for Sony to not prioritize 60fps, it's just a bummer.

CoD Modern Warfare (2019) looks jaw dropping and it's 60fps on X1X and PS4 Pro. It looks so darn good that it's a shame games still strive to hit 30fps as opposed to target 60fps from the outset and optimize their graphics based on that. I hate seeing Sony go into the PS5 gen with 30fps as the target for their first party games..

 

[Eeyore]

I'm not talking about big budget games from Sony / Microsoft / Nintendo. I can understand games like BotW running at 30fps because of the tablet hardware, but PS5 has a massive CPU leap over PS4 and for Sony to not prioritize 60fps, it's just a bummer.

CoD Modern Warfare (2019) looks jaw dropping and it's 60fps on X1X and PS4 Pro. It looks so darn good that it's a shame games still strive to hit 30fps as opposed to target 60fps from the outset and optimize their graphics based on that. I hate seeing Sony go into the PS5 gen with 30fps as the target for their first party games..

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I think you'll see it from Microsoft. Sony has prioritized graphical fidelity for the last few generations. Just take a look at Ratchet going from 60 to 30 fps. They market and sell their games this way. I'm hopeful of them adding performance modes to all their games but I don't know that we'll see that.

 

[Jiggy]

FWIW, I can get behind that. The first game's horrible technical performance added to its allure, in a "this game is so bad it shouldn't exist but I can't stop playing it" kind of way.

Making the performance unbearable and hitchty for no reason is like the video game equivalent of David Lynch making you watch a guy sweep the floor for over two minutes. This time, Nintendo just seems to be in on the joke.

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No game should have "run likes garbage" as part of its allure. Make as many weird stylistic choices as you want but I'm not going to watch a game stutter across my screen like a powerpoint presentation because the publisher doesn't want to release the product when it's actually ready to be released.

 

[Kyoufu]

Insomniac took down their "we're never making another 60fps game ever again" blog post. Maybe they'll give options with Miles Morales?

I don't need native 4K. I don't need Ray Traced shadows. I need 60fps.

 

[darthkarki]

And now you're coming into a world where your consoles actually have super powerful CPUs. Achieving 60fps isn't some kind of wizardry any more.

Welcome to the future.

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There are 60fps games on current gen consoles too though. And last gen. And every gen before that. It's not hard to make a 60fps game. It's simply limiting. You can do twice as much at 30fps as you can at 60fps, and that will always be true, on every system.

Next gen consoles can totally run current gen games at 60fps, and that'll be awesome. I'm looking forward to it. I'm also looking forward to games with physics, destruction, AI, crowds, and all kinds of other things that can't run at 60fps even on Zen 2 CPUs. I've seen what current gen games can do at lower frame rates, I want to see what they can't do.

 

[MistaTwo]

Considering how well Spider-Man already plays at 30fps, I wouldn't throw a fit if they decide to stick with a tried and true format.

There are always considerations to be made from a variety of discipline viewpoints with a change so drastic as doubling the framerate.

 

[Lkr]

I always laugh when people say 30fps isn't noticeable in spiderman. It's the most noticeable thing about playing the game and is downright annoying. It's even worse in some of the cutscenes.

Again, I get the limitations of the system. But the game would go from awesome to possibly one of my all time favs if it didn't feel so sluggish

Miles Morales 60fps has me getting a ps5 day one

 

[RestEerie]

"we're never making another 60fps game ever again" blog post.

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wait....they wrote such a blog post before?

 

[Kyoufu]

wait....they wrote such a blog post before?

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Yup, back in the PS3 days, they said 60fps doesn't result in better sales or better reviews, so they'll push visual fidelity instead.

They've taken it down now. 🤔

 

[Jiggy]

Yup, back in the PS3 days, they said 60fps doesn't result in better sales or better reviews, so they'll push visual fidelity instead.

They've taken it down now. 🤔

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I replayed Tools of Destruction recently and it still feels so good to play thanks to the silky smooth 60fps. It's night and day compared to Ratchet & Clank 2016 which runs at half the framerate. Visuals age, but a good performance is forever.

 

[Doskoi Panda]

I replayed Tools of Destruction recently and it still feels so good to play thanks to the silky smooth 60fps. It's night and day compared to Ratchet & Clank 2016 which runs at half the framerate. Visuals age, but a good performance is forever.

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In my experience it's especially night-and-day compared to R&C Into The Nexus, the game they initially dropped 60fps for to begin with. That choice let them hit native 720p (or something close) with better graphics than before... but to me it wasn't worth the tradeoff. Rented the game and stopped playing it not far into my second or third session

 

[Ra]

Yes, but we're now getting into the debate of games are becoming too expensive to create these visuals, so should game prices increase?

The answer is no because they're posting record profits. Clearly not an actual issue and just a desire for more money.

That not withstanding, if the development cost was actually getting too high due to the visuals, then going for the higher frame rate would be a better alternative.

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Now this I can get behind.

There are 60fps games on current gen consoles too though. And last gen. And every gen before that. It's not hard to make a 60fps game. It's simply limiting. You can do twice as much at 30fps as you can at 60fps, and that will always be true, on every system.

Next gen consoles can totally run current gen games at 60fps, and that'll be awesome. I'm looking forward to it. I'm also looking forward to games with physics, destruction, AI, crowds, and all kinds of other things that can't run at 60fps even on Zen 2 CPUs. I've seen what current gen games can do at lower frame rates, I want to see what they can't do.

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You're going to be surprised at how hard it is to push these CPUs to the point that a 60fps performance mode isn't possible, given the GPUs and overall system strength to which they are paired. In the end balanced scenarios are majorly GPU bound.

I definitely respect the vision for which you're looking.

 

[Vanta Aurelius]

People forget that temporal resolution is a thing. Higher framerates don't only feel better via reduced latency and increased responsiveness, but you're eyes are able to resolve more detail during motion.

 

[Fredrik]

Higher framerates don't only feel better via reduced latency and increased responsiveness, but you're eyes are able to resolve more detail during motion.

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Yeah this is so important.

The worst way to waste system resources is to go with a high resolution to increase the details and then lower the framerate and add motion blur so you're not seeing the increased details anymore.

 

[RoboPlato]

Yup, back in the PS3 days, they said 60fps doesn't result in better sales or better reviews, so they'll push visual fidelity instead.

They've taken it down now. 🤔

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They've made VR games since then. Obviously framerate is key for VR

Yeah this is so important.

The worst way to waste system resources is to go with a high resolution to increase the details and then lower the framerate and add motion blur so you're not seeing the increased details anymore.

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Motion blur is still important for animation fluidity, sense of speed, and sense of impact, even at 60fps.

 

[Fredrik]

Motion blur is still important for animation fluidity, sense of speed, and sense of impact, even at 60fps.

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Well the higher the framerate the less details gets lost to blur the frames.
But I don't agree that it's needed. Take a game like Ori and the Will of the Wisps, it has motion blur as an option even though it's ~60fps. It looks a ton better if you deactivate the blur. Even at 60fps a simple sideway pan of the camera can be enough to lose details. At 30fps it will completely destroy any details unless the motion is super slow.