Pretty much everyone here is being measured and reasonable about their criticisms of the episode, so I'm not sure why you've come in with this sassy attitude.
Doctor Who: The Fifteenth Doctor |OT| Ncuti Stars (Season 1 debuts on May 10th/11th)
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Pretty much everyone here is being measured and reasonable about their criticisms of the episode, so I'm not sure why you've come in with this sassy attitude.
Couple of reasons! First of all, it's Sunday morning so I'm hungover. Second, other parts of the internet haven't been as measured so I'm annoyed about that.
But thirdly and more importantly, this thread loved Boom. So an AI somehow becoming a real boy (no explanation) and deactivating a landmine because daddies love their little girls (no justification) got a pass and no criticisms for being nonsense. But a story about a woman tortured by an anxiety ghost, for some reason, gets criticised for not spelling things out.
Just seems like heteronormative reproductive futurism gets immediate acceptance; and the much fresher and more interesting story by the gay writer gets more pushback, when they have similar issues, and that annoys me.
Sure, the idea that an AI replication of a human might have the capacity to develop free will and enter an online system like a virus is pretty cartoonish, especially when the motivation is the ol' "power of love". But it's not a particularly big leap for modern Doctor Who, and we've been expected to accept things just as goofy and outlandish on the regular since the show returned in 05.
73 Yards is different, because rather than being asked to accept a couple of outlandish explanations, we're not offered any explanations at all to the many unusual goings-on the story presents. That's not a common ask for this show.
I don't really agree with what you're implying here; both Davies and Moffat have mountains of both fans and detractors, and I've never seen anything to make me think it's got anything to do with sexual orientation (outside of a tiny minority of weirdos). What happened here is much simpler IMO: Moffat wrote an episode that felt like classic Doctor Who, and Davies wrote something that felt avante-garde and experimental.
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Boom is a sci-fi episode, and that's a genre where explanations and technobabble were well-established tropes.
73 Yards isn't even remotely sci-fi- it's an M.R. James-style folk horror story, and that is a genre that has a long and storied history of leaving the details ambiguous and up to the audience's interpretation.
There's nothing requiring any given audience member to prefer one or the other, but they aren't playing the same game, and it's perfectly valid to say that the explanations given in one bother you and the lack of explanation in the other doesn't.
73 Yards isn't even remotely sci-fi- it's an M.R. James-style folk horror story, and that is a genre that has a long and storied history of leaving the details ambiguous and up to the audience's interpretation.
There's nothing requiring any given audience member to prefer one or the other, but they aren't playing the same game, and it's perfectly valid to say that the explanations given in one bother you and the lack of explanation in the other doesn't.
Moffat didn't just write an episode that felt like classic who, though. It was an episode full of references to his other episodes, and full of ideas we've seen doctor who do before done in a competent but rote way.
I don't mean to imply that anyone in this thread is intentionally homophobic or anything. I definitely don't think that's the case. But I do think that preferring Doctor Who to be what you've seen before and buying into a story about the magic of fatherhood and ill-timed straight crushes are connected ideas, in a way. It's that preference for the safe, conventional, the pre approved (though in the case of boom, done really well by a great production team). I personally have a strong preference right now for unconventional experimental novel doctor who, especially since the 60th specials executed the nostalgia for 2008 so perfectly that it cured my hunger for it entirely.
My concern is that Disney see the feedback from these two episodes and the instruction to production is more comfort food, more continuity references, more "hey remember when", and that space for new experiments gets squeezed out.
That said though, Boom was Moffat back for the first time in years, so it makes sense for that episode to be a love letter to all his old stuff. I just hope his next outing on the show is new territory for both the program and for him.
It's more of an aside then the main point, but you pick up on this:
We're in an interesting place with Who's production schedule now - series 2 wrapped last weekend. There's really no room for any general audience feedback from series 1 to at any point have impacted the show production in any major way. If we get 3/4, specific reaction from these two episodes is likely to be so low down the agenda. But it does mean that for the first two series of the run, it really is in a bubble away from a lot of feedback - so it's possibly a bit more pure to the vision. Which is a big shift compared to a lot of shows. Any subtle shifts on direction for series 2 would come entirely from the product team/commissioners own opinions or expectations or feedback, without external influence. Which is intriguing to see that they think of S1 and how they built/reacted to that.
Russell's very keen on pushing the show to places it hasn't been before, so as long as he's in charge I wouldn't worry about that side too much.
We're in an interesting place with Who's production schedule now - series 2 wrapped last weekend. There's really no room for any general audience feedback from series 1 to at any point have impacted the show production in any major way. If we get 3/4, specific reaction from these two episodes is likely to be so low down the agenda. But it does mean that for the first two series of the run, it really is in a bubble away from a lot of feedback - so it's possibly a bit more pure to the vision. Which is a big shift compared to a lot of shows. Any subtle shifts on direction for series 2 would come entirely from the product team/commissioners own opinions or expectations or feedback, without external influence. Which is intriguing to see that they think of S1 and how they built/reacted to that.
Russell's very keen on pushing the show to places it hasn't been before, so as long as he's in charge I wouldn't worry about that side too much.
The preview for the next episode reminded me a lot of Black Mirror (especially with the new actress' superficial similarity to Bryce Dallas Howard and all the screens).
After sleeping over 73 Yards, I like it even more as this experimental Black Mirror like episode, in that sense of it depicting one person's fear in this heightened state where everything falls apart and her trying to grasp it. That is the vibe I got from it. Specifically I was reminded of the episode where people 'block' each other in real life and their faces are literally censored to each other, and where people are punished by being trapped in a computer simulation for millions of years.
I get the same vibe of existential terror, though in BM it is comprehensible from the human technology point of view. In DW it's a magic curse that affects you in a more 'relatable' way - instead of having blood run from your eyes or snakes from your ear holes, it's people getting as far away from you as possible, and always having someone watching you.
Also the way I personally interpret "Ruby's acquaintance tries to confront woman" -> "they abandon Ruby" is that sometimes people are willing to stick with you until you begin to open up personally or become vulnerable to them, in which case they grow distant because they're not interested in deeper relationships with you. That is the interpreted reason, the sci-fi explanation has to do with the TARDIS perception filter + witch magic most likely.
After sleeping over 73 Yards, I like it even more as this experimental Black Mirror like episode, in that sense of it depicting one person's fear in this heightened state where everything falls apart and her trying to grasp it. That is the vibe I got from it. Specifically I was reminded of the episode where people 'block' each other in real life and their faces are literally censored to each other, and where people are punished by being trapped in a computer simulation for millions of years.
I get the same vibe of existential terror, though in BM it is comprehensible from the human technology point of view. In DW it's a magic curse that affects you in a more 'relatable' way - instead of having blood run from your eyes or snakes from your ear holes, it's people getting as far away from you as possible, and always having someone watching you.
Also the way I personally interpret "Ruby's acquaintance tries to confront woman" -> "they abandon Ruby" is that sometimes people are willing to stick with you until you begin to open up personally or become vulnerable to them, in which case they grow distant because they're not interested in deeper relationships with you. That is the interpreted reason, the sci-fi explanation has to do with the TARDIS perception filter + witch magic most likely.
The thing I'm still struggling on is the hand gestures the woman was doing. She always does the same hand gestures when Ruby looks at her, and I feel like even if we don't need them explained in dialogue I am curious about them. It kinda looked like she's cradling/rocking a baby in her arms for one of them, right?
Damn. Now I'm curious if that's significant, or if Russell and the director just had the actress do those signs because they show up well on camera even from a distance.
Gotcha, just finished reading a couple articles. RTD claiming a shortage of actors lol. I guess we'll see if it's meaningful.
2.62 million in the overnight rating for BBC One airing, which is .02 higher than episode 1 got.
Are we just going to ignore the fact that she spent her remaining life having been abandoned by her adoptive family, separated from the Doctor and cut off from any possible help after UNIT withdraws? Also, what's worse than everyone abandoning, avoiding or ignoring her and all she can get is an "ask her"? It doesn't really matter how well she knew them. You might have had a point, if you didn't just skip over her losing everyone else as well…
Just saw the behind-the-scenes video for this episode, and RTD had this to say:
So, your interpretation is correct, except she does actually live it.
She must undo the effect of breaking the fairy circle and unleashing Mad Jack. And even after that's accomplished, she's forced to spend her whole remaining life "alone", having already been abandoned by her family. Only after she's dies, is she finally released and allowed to warn herself.
This also clears up whether the Old Woman is Old Ruby #2, it's obviously not.
See that's exactly the kind of thing I would've appreciated much better if the show had done anything to help me understand it while I was watching. And why sign language? I don't remember if we've ever seen anything regarding if Ruby knows sign language in a previous episode.
I could have accepted all the other ambiguity in the episode much better if they'd only just done a better job of explaining what the hell the Woman was doing. It's the central mystery of the whole episode! The payoff just didn't pay off as well as the whole rest of the episode promised.
But also, what does that message have to do with "Don't step"?
This is directly addressed…
She LITERALLY says, "Sorry, had to be 100% certain" (or something similar)
That's after we, "indirectly" (though not really subtle), learn that he raped the staffer.
And after we get told, directly, that he's getting the nuke codes tonight.
So, your problem is it shouldn't have been a life sentence? That's fine, but there's no logical inconsistency with her only being released after dying, and thus completing her life of penitence.
I also don't see how it's a valid criticism to say the perpetrator should be the one that gets to choose their sentence, lol.
I don't think Ruby DOES understand sign language, nor were we supposed to think she did. If she did, she would've commented on it.
So why the sign language? How does it have anything to do with stopping the Doctor from stepping on the fae circle?Or does whatever the Woman was doing just have nothing to do with anything?
We're led to understand that the Woman was Ruby the whole time (which I had guessed already long before that point) but the connective tissue isn't there, the why.
I don't think Ruby was the woman the whole time. If she were then she'd be saying 'don't step' from the very beginning (in the 'first' iteration) and the episode doesn't happen.
Ruby merges with the woman after she serves her life of penitence at the very end, and she is allowed to go back in time and prevent them from disrupting the circle.
Ruby merges with the woman after she serves her life of penitence at the very end, and she is allowed to go back in time and prevent them from disrupting the circle.
Space Babies had a silly premise that could have been a disaster but somehow they pulled it off and it was fun. Intro was clunky for us old fans but I appreciate that they made it new fan friendly, especially now it's on a big streaming platform. The Nan-E translations were funny. Ncuti & Millie are developing incredible chemistry.
I'd rate The Devil's Chord a bit higher than Space Babies. It was a bit darker. Not keen on 4th wall breaking outside of Deadpool but I thought the lead-in to the title theme was clever. The lame songs at the beginning were funny, then sad after learning the reason why they sucked. Ruby's piano song was hauntingly beautiful. Cool trick with the sonic. The Maestro was a fun maniacal villian but I could understand her style being divisive. Very camp but with a sinister undertone. I appreciated the variety of classic music instead of the usual pop songs common in Doctor Who. The ending was fun, even with the additional 4th-wall breaking.
Boom was great. Very tense the whole way through. Looked big budget like Loki despite taking place in mostly a single location. As an Outlander fan I enjoyed the Doctor singing Skye Song. I accidentally got spoiled on Varada Sethu being the next companion despite trying to avoid spoilers but her appearing this early ala Jenna Coleman was a nice surprise. Fish fingers & custard!
73 Yards was my favorite so far. I loved how creepy the opening scene was. Gave me Watcher in Logopolis vibes. Also the whole thing felt very Black Mirror. Nice to see Kate as a semi-regular. I was wondering when Roger Ap Gwilliam would show up and knew he'd be important given the casting. I hope he pops up again in the future. Ruby making him run away was clever. I wish it had gone a bit longer with more of an explanation at the end but otherwise that was a standout episode.
I'd rate The Devil's Chord a bit higher than Space Babies. It was a bit darker. Not keen on 4th wall breaking outside of Deadpool but I thought the lead-in to the title theme was clever. The lame songs at the beginning were funny, then sad after learning the reason why they sucked. Ruby's piano song was hauntingly beautiful. Cool trick with the sonic. The Maestro was a fun maniacal villian but I could understand her style being divisive. Very camp but with a sinister undertone. I appreciated the variety of classic music instead of the usual pop songs common in Doctor Who. The ending was fun, even with the additional 4th-wall breaking.
Boom was great. Very tense the whole way through. Looked big budget like Loki despite taking place in mostly a single location. As an Outlander fan I enjoyed the Doctor singing Skye Song. I accidentally got spoiled on Varada Sethu being the next companion despite trying to avoid spoilers but her appearing this early ala Jenna Coleman was a nice surprise. Fish fingers & custard!
73 Yards was my favorite so far. I loved how creepy the opening scene was. Gave me Watcher in Logopolis vibes. Also the whole thing felt very Black Mirror. Nice to see Kate as a semi-regular. I was wondering when Roger Ap Gwilliam would show up and knew he'd be important given the casting. I hope he pops up again in the future. Ruby making him run away was clever. I wish it had gone a bit longer with more of an explanation at the end but otherwise that was a standout episode.
I don't think it does. I'm still trying to make sense of it, but I'm pretty sure that Ruby's power isn't actually personal time travel, but rather some kind of anchored psychic projection. She sent her consciousness back and projected it INTO the Woman, who was already there, and used her as a conduit to project the feeling of "don't step" into the past, the same way that she's sent Christmas (and the emotions of that moment) into the past and future in the other three episodes.
My problem is, within the episode, there's absolutely nothing that connects Ruby stopping Gwilliam with her being "forgiven." And Kate's lines about making up rules actively discourage the viewer from making that connection. Ruby is assuming that the old woman's purpose is to stop him. With how inexplicable the old woman is the entire episode, and with how absolutely nothing changes after Ruby does stop him, the audience is kind of forced to believe that this was simply another example of Ruby trying to see logic in something that had none.
And I never said there was anything logically inconsistent with what Russell said, but just because the episode technically makes sense when viewed through that lens doesn't make it narratively or emotionally satisfying to me. I also have no clue what you're talking about with "perpetrator should choose their sentence." Ruby isn't a perpetrator serving a sentence, she's a victim of a curse that's psychologically torturing an innocent woman over 65 years because she read a piece of paper lol. "A perpetrator should be able to choose their sentence" does not in any way correlate to me saying I wish Ruby had more agency in breaking the curse.
Erg. So there's potentially just no given reason for the Woman to ever be there, at all. I guess she's some kind of manifestation of the broken circle and that's all? And everything about what happens is just "because magic".
This whole theme of this season is something I'm really torn about. It's something I could appreciate but it's also just such a radical departure from the kinds of themes I've loved about Doctor Who.
Yeah this is the thing some people seem not to understand. Yes, we can accept that the writer was trying to be clever by writing an episode that follows the thesis of having to make up rules to make it make sense, but that doesn't necessarily make that a satisfying experience for a viewer who's excited about the resolution they expect, especially in the context of a series that throughout 60 years of existence almost never leaves the viewer hanging in that way. And it's not even like I would necessarily need everything spelled out in minute detail, just, you know, some things. I enjoy filling in some blanks myself, just not all of them.
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Yes, she's a manifestation of the fairy circle that was always there and latched onto Ruby when they triggered the superstition.
I'm assuming the Doctor experienced something similar on his own. Ruby's punishment was for the opening and reading of the parchments I'd assume.
Although, now that I think about it, the Woman was definitely Ruby at least at the end, or was at least created by her, because there was no Woman for her to astrally project into prior to the circle being broken.
Another thing that's still ambiguous is Gwilliam. They could've explained him being a catastrophic future leader as Mad Jack having been released by the breaking of the circle... but the Doctor talks about him in this way even before the circle is broken (both times). So does anyone stop him now? I hope that's something they revisit.
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Them not seeing the woman until right after (or in the case of the restored timeline, right before) the circle was broken strikes me as less "she didn't exist until the circle was broken" and more "she was always there and they just weren't able to see her until the right conditions were met". Like a psychic echo that doesn't reveal itself to everyone.
Roger is probably still a threat. He just might not be a threat the Doctor and Ruby need to solve. If he really is just a tremendously shitty dude who exists entirely organically without any alien or magic shenanigans driving him, that's kinda out of the Doctor's jurisdiction.
We don't know that.
Every time someone asks what she is there's a different answer. Is she a manifestation of the fairy circle? Is she a manifestation of Ruby's abandonment issues? Is she a manifestation of fears come to life that must be defeated by hope? Is she Ruby from the future stuck in some kind of time lock? Is she two or more of these things combined?
The only thing with actual in-episode evidence is her being Old Ruby. People want to write that off because it makes no sense, and I agree it makes no sense, but none of the other options are given any actual evidence, aside from the general theme of abandonment.
It would be kinda cool if Russell is using Gwilliam to finally follow up on that throwaway line in Before the Flood about the "Minister of War" being a future threat to the Doctor.
Just rewatched the start of Devil's Chord to see if there's any stepping going on. I guess they step all over the Abbey Road zebra crossing? Otherwise no. Still, all these blundering steps can't be a coincidence.
If you want to be technical, moving between adjacent keys on a piano is either a half or full step and he got the last key wrong and almost got himself and Ruby killed by Maestro as a result
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I don't think the episode is suggesting that the Woman was Old Ruby the whole time. Just that Ruby projected herself back to that moment right before she died.
It's notable that even after she gets sent back we never see the Woman's face.
That just means Ruby is a bit of a shitty person. She heard from the Doctor about the nukes, she saw the interview on TV, with him talking about nukes, and allowed a woman to be sexually assaulted before taking action, by not taking action beforehand.
I just think she should have acted as soon as she got the chance to be 73 yards from him. I'm totally sure she had some chances beforehand. Just doesn't smell right to me.
"Damn, can't get a shot on her for some reason. Maybe if I get closer..."
"Gwen, no!"
Outside of Jack for obvious reasons, i don't really see why RTD couldn't bring back Torchwood
I feel like I need time to come to an actual conclusion as to my thoughts regarding this. But currently, I just can't help but feel like it was yet another Netflix horror movie that, although started with a strong premise, soon failed hard and did not provide any meaningful answers or a satisfactory ending. And worse, I am not even sure that I just watched an episode of Doctor Who. Take that as you will.
One specific point I wanted to ask though. Was the removal of the intro significant in any way? Was it to continue to show that reality / perception is continuing to break down? Or was it cut simply for time constraints?
One specific point I wanted to ask though. Was the removal of the intro significant in any way? Was it to continue to show that reality / perception is continuing to break down? Or was it cut simply for time constraints?
I thought that was cool. You didn't watch an episode of Doctor Who. You watched a cold open of Doctor Who, followed by an episode of Ruby Sunday.
catching up
episodes 1 and 2 were absolutely incredible. proudly declared that dr who is SO fucking back and a straight person should never be allowed near it again
and then i started episode 3
and it said BY STEVEN MOFFAT
and i knew i was about to watch the worst goddamn shit i've ever fucking seen
how is he allowed to continue doing this. and he gets paid for it too????
episodes 1 and 2 were absolutely incredible. proudly declared that dr who is SO fucking back and a straight person should never be allowed near it again
and then i started episode 3
and it said BY STEVEN MOFFAT
and i knew i was about to watch the worst goddamn shit i've ever fucking seen
how is he allowed to continue doing this. and he gets paid for it too????
I don't know if I would complain quite so vocally, but yeah, I think of the 5 episodes so far including Church on ruby road, the mine episode was... not good.
The other 4 have been great, but I can't say I honestly could list a single thing I'd recommend about episode 4.
Do we know if moffat is doing any more of the episodes?
The other 4 have been great, but I can't say I honestly could list a single thing I'd recommend about episode 4.
Do we know if moffat is doing any more of the episodes?
Or so good that RTD would commission him for multiple episodes.
We do.