Wallach

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,653
I'm not defending this but should all games really be as responsive as possible, is it really that bad when they don't and can it affect realism?

They should be as responsive as possible. Folks should remember that responsiveness is not what actually defines whether something feels incredibly fast and precise or slow and heavy.

Remember that there is already human delay in the input chain. You are already pressing buttons some number of frames later than whatever your brain saw or heard that caused you to press that button. You do not ever need to account for this delay in-engine.

Now, if you want to try and have your game feel heavier, slower, more realistic, you can do this by adjusting what the response to the button input is. It's software, you can make it do whatever you want. You don't need to insert an artificial gap between receiving an input and doing something with it, it will only create unwanted dissonance in the input chain.

Just to clarify, that seems to be a typo and he seems to have meant 10-16 frames.

https://twitter.com/danlowlows/status/1059146652152262656

Which is still very bad and way beyond the 5-6 frames that only the most sensitive people can notice.
I'm still really surprised it was basically never mentioned in the various reviews.

Okay... that's slightly better than what he originally said, but it's still a 6 frame variance gap in a 30 FPS game, when the floor is already such an absurdly high result. So it's still a butt ugly range of like ~333ms to ~532ms. Those are just plain insane numbers.
 

Phendrana

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,129
Melbourne, Australia
I'm not defending this but should all games really be as responsive as possible, is it really that bad when they don't and can it affect realism?
Realism in games is fine, but...does it take multiple seconds for your brain to tell your feel to start walking irl?

RDR2's form of 'realism' isn't actually realistic at all, which is why all of the posts about it helping immersion seems like such R* bias to me. It's made by them so it has to be intentional and 'good'. I am actively pulled out of the experience because of the controls/gunplay being so unresponsive, and it seems many others are too.
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,562
I don't understand how realistic this can be if it controls way worse than me in real life. Explain like I'm five.
 

Memento

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,129
Uncharted The Lost Legacy is extremely impressive considering it is extremely animation heavy, with some of the best (imo THE BEST) animations in any TPS game out there
 

Elysiums

Banned
Dec 19, 2017
476
If I wanted to drive a tank I would be playing Arkham Knight. Controls are clunky and the huge imput lag is terrible for a game that makes aiming a gun the most used combat mechanic.
 

MistaTwo

SNK Gaming Division Studio 1
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Oct 24, 2017
2,456
My sentiments to the tee. Shooting feels as responsive as any other shooter. Everything else was intentional.

It's been this way with GTA for a long time already, so i don't get why everyone is so surprised at how heavy moving around feels in RDR2.

If you really think that overall response times for this are comparable to say, Destiny, then you probably don't have a critical eye for this stuff.
That's fine and all, but I don't see why you would push back against wanting to improve it for anyone it did affect.

Also, GTA has been demonstrably proven to have pretty shit response times even in the case of other non-movement actions like shooting a gun.
Here is a link for GTA4 showing the input delay on Trigger press -> Fire gun to be 12 frames, which is shockingly similar to this movement input delay! Hmmm...

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132122/measuring_responsiveness_in_video_.php?page=2

I'm not defending this but should all games really be as responsive as possible, is it really that bad when they don't and can it affect realism?

Yes, they really should, especially in a game where half of the content revolves around gunplay against a dozen or so opponents.
Think of it this way. Do you need a half-second delay in real life between simple actions like walking forward, or grabbing an item?
Games already have a physical delay thanks to the controller/button presses.
All games should really aim to make the window from that input to in-game response as short as possible.
 

huH1678

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,029
Uncharted The Lost Legacy is extremely impressuve considering it is extremely animation heavy, with some of the best (imo THE BEST) animations in any TPS game out there

Yeah i am really surprised at that, UC LL felt fantastic to play considering how smooth the animation looks.

it's so fucking insufferable. every criticism leveled against this game becomes somehow a fault of us for not understanding Rockstar's mastery or some bullshit.

Remember when people said the game was boring and so slow and tedious and people responded with, "You must be 12 who only enjoys fast-paced blah blah blah" or some other bullcrap..?

the input lag should be the moment you thought of an action and the motor movement your thumb made to move the character, just like how it is in real life.

People are blinded by R* as usual, nothing new really.
 

Ichi

Banned
Sep 10, 2018
1,997
Is honestly pretty funny the amount of mental gymnastics people are doing just to not taint the perfection that is RDR2, "I enjoy unresponsive games", "People want every game to be the same!", "It's because of immersion".

it's so fucking insufferable. every criticism leveled against this game becomes somehow a fault of us for not understanding Rockstar's mastery or some bullshit.

Remember when people said the game was boring and so slow and tedious and people responded with, "You must be 12 who only enjoys fast-paced blah blah blah" or some other bullcrap..?

the input lag should be the moment you thought of an action and the motor movement your thumb made to move the character, just like how it is in real life.
 

Deleted member 29464

Account closed at user request
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,121
They should be as responsive as possible. Folks should remember that responsiveness is not what actually defines whether something feels incredibly fast and precise or slow and heavy.

Remember that there is already human delay in the input chain. You are already pressing buttons some number of frames later than whatever your brain saw or heard that caused you to press that button. You do not ever need to account for this delay in-engine.

Now, if you want to try and have your game feel heavier, slower, more realistic, you can do this by adjusting what the response to the button input is. It's software, you can make it do whatever you want. You don't need to insert an artificial gap between receiving an input and doing something with it, it will only create unwanted dissonance in the input chain.
That's ideal, true, but does it really need to be as ideal as possible when say just moving around in a town in an RPG? For a fighting game, it absolutely should be as ideal as possible, for a walking sim, it shouldn't be a priority, well in my opinion, but judging by some people I know's reactions they would bin that walking sim on feel alone. Going back to an RPG example, if the movement isn't a big focus, surely it's fine not to be perfect out of combat, but it should be ideal when dodging or countering like in something like TW3.
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,204
JP
it's so fucking insufferable. every criticism leveled against this game becomes somehow a fault of us for not understanding Rockstar's mastery or some bullshit.

Remember when people said the game was boring and so slow and tedious and people responded with, "You must be 12 who only enjoys fast-paced blah blah blah" or some other bullcrap..?

Yeah, I'm a person who would nominally spend three hours reading manuals and learning how to start up an airplane in the name of realism so this is very amusing when people are claiming that input lag = realism.
 

Wallach

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,653
That's ideal, true, but does it really need to be as ideal as possible when say just moving around in a town in an RPG? For a fighting game, it absolutely should be as ideal as possible, for a walking sim, it shouldn't be a priority, well in my opinion, but judging by some people I know's reactions they would bin that walking sim on feel alone. Going back to an RPG example, if the movement isn't a big focus, surely it's fine not to be perfect out of combat, but it should be ideal when dodging or countering like in something like TW3.

I mean, I definitely feel like some games are not going to be held to the same standards when it comes to input delay, sure. A menu-driven game isn't going to catch bad reviews for having 10 frames of input delay where a fighting game will get panned.

But there is not much of a question of whether one result is just better than the other. Even a slow menu-based game will benefit slightly from feeling responsive as players gain mastery over the system and want to be able to navigate it much more quickly than the novice player. There is not, however, any positive merit to having the game respond slower; it's a fairly objective metric all things considered, which makes some of the posts in this thread really fuck me up.
 

gogosox82

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,385
The input lag and the wonky control scheme are very noticeable and does take my some enjoyment from the game but I still like its a very well made game.
 

ohitsluca

Member
Oct 29, 2017
731
Redo the test while holding X... The character is much more responsive than if just pressing the stick at walking speed
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
The other games he's "testing" don't have a walk state by default.

He hasn't bothered testing immediately going into a run state despite the other games entering a run state by default.

A bizarre video to create, but that's the kind of attention you attract when you're as successful and important as RDR2, I guess.

Impact
uWy1o.gif
Y'all take this way too personal.

It's okay to think RDR2 has some issues here and there, it doesn't make the game bad.
 

Deleted member 29464

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I mean, I definitely feel like some games are not going to be held to the same standards when it comes to input delay, sure. A menu-driven game isn't going to catch bad reviews for having 10 frames of input delay where a fighting game will get panned.

But there is not much of a question of whether one result is just better than the other. Even a slow menu-based game will benefit slightly from feeling responsive as players gain mastery over the system and want to be able to navigate it much more quickly than the novice player. There is not, however, any positive merit to having the game respond slower; it's a fairly objective metric all things considered, which makes some of the posts in this thread really fuck me up.
Fair enough, it reminds me of frame rate in that regard. This thread would be like if RDR2 ran at 15fps.
 

Wallach

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,653
Fair enough, it reminds me of frame rate in that regard. This thread would be like if RDR2 ran at 15fps.

Yeah, though even in that analogy I can at least make a reasonable, good faith argument that you can often make real image quality gains by giving yourself more frame time and dropping your target frame rate. I don't know how to make any good faith argument that there is some merit to having a game respond to a button input more slowly. Especially on purpose for god's sake.
 

TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
I mean, I definitely feel like some games are not going to be held to the same standards when it comes to input delay, sure. A menu-driven game isn't going to catch bad reviews for having 10 frames of input delay where a fighting game will get panned.

But there is not much of a question of whether one result is just better than the other. Even a slow menu-based game will benefit slightly from feeling responsive as players gain mastery over the system and want to be able to navigate it much more quickly than the novice player. There is not, however, any positive merit to having the game respond slower; it's a fairly objective metric all things considered, which makes some of the posts in this thread really fuck me up.

The metric is objective perhaps, but how much it matters is subjective.
 

Wallach

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,653
It's been three years, and we have no idea what the fuck they are doing. For all we know they're in development hell.

Even though everyone else is right and this really has fuck all to do with anything - Lowe's been at EA for a whole 2 years, while it took Rockstar 8 years to make the game we're talking about here. I bet 6 years from now whatever Lowe's worked in that time on won't have input delay in the 500ms range.
 

Mamoniadas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,833
between this video and the megaman lag test, I'm really impressed at how thorough and scientific the fgc's lag testing is.
 

ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,675
Were you saying the same thing about RDR2 5 years ago?
Five years ago, Rockstar put out this game called Grand Theft Auto 5. A year prior they put out Max Payne 3. They spent their time making other games, and while RDR had preliminary work done since 2010, full blown development started right after GTA 5, iirc.

edit: though whatever, it was a joke anyways. No need to carry this pointless debate on.
 

TheKeyPit

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,865
Germany
I don't get it. What's wrong with me? I never noticed the input lag in Rise of the Tomb Raider, and I still don't notice it in RDR2, but as soon as I don't have Game Mode selected on my LG TV I notice the crazy difference in Rocket League or Forza. Guess I only notice it in fast paced games.
 

Deleted member 4413

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How did everyone manage to play GTA V for all these years? If these response times are truly 100% game breaking.

For the record I would also like better response times in movement (everything else is fine).
 

MistaTwo

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Oct 24, 2017
2,456
Five years ago, Rockstar put out this game called Grand Theft Auto 5. A year prior they put out Max Payne 3. They spent their time making other games, and while RDR had preliminary work done since 2010, full blown development started right after GTA 5, iirc.

edit: though whatever, it was a joke anyways. No need to carry this pointless debate on.

Dan Lowe seems to also be credited for Watch Dogs in 2014, so there you go.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
55,068
I can definitely tell, and i'm usually sensitive to games that don't offer tight controls, but it honestly took my like an hour or two to get fully used to it and it doesn't bother me at all. Maybe it's because the design of the game has you doing a lot of fairly slow tasks. Like you aren't climbing buildings or scaling mountains or parkouring around and melee'ing dudes where the slow/weighty controls might have stood out more. Rockstar might have lucked out in that respect due to their game design.
 

Wallach

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,653
How did everyone manage to play GTA V for all these years? If these response times are truly 100% game breaking.

For the record I would also like better response times in movement (everything else is fine).

This feels a bit like asking how we managed to play all those N64 games that ran at around 15 FPS. The answer is that there was no other way to play them. I don't think, however, it is hard to answer the question of whether those games were better or worse for having run at 15 FPS instead of 30 FPS or 60 FPS.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
55,068
This feels a bit like asking how we managed to play all those N64 games that ran at around 15 FPS. The answer is that there was no other way to play them. I don't think, however, it is hard to answer the question of whether those games were better or worse for having run at 15 FPS instead of 30 FPS or 60 FPS.

I think it's relevant to bring up GTAV though. Not that I think Rockstar have improved their formula since then, but because GTAV is still played by millions of people, and still sells by the boatload, so you have a huge chunk of the consumer base who are sort of conditioned on these kinds of controls, and are less likely to have it be a sore spot for them with RDR2.
 

Wallach

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,653
I think it's relevant to bring up GTAV though. Not that I think Rockstar have improved their formula since then, but because GTAV is still played by millions of people, and still sells by the boatload, so you have a huge chunk of the consumer base who are sort of conditioned on these kinds of controls, and are less likely to have it be a sore spot for them with RDR2.

I'm definitely curious to see how much of this issue translates to some of their previous games, especially GTA5. I wish RDR2 had a PC version I could access, I'd consider doing it myself. Given how many folks have raised the game's controls as an issue - where I don't really recall reading that as much for GTA5 - I wonder if it hasn't gotten worse and is getting to some threshold where it's getting out of tolerance for more players.