That's your takeaway from my posts? For Christs sake, what is wrong with some of you....😞
Electric Vehicles |OT| EV 2.0
- Thread starter FliX
- Start date
That's your takeaway from my posts? For Christs sake, what is wrong with some of you....😞
Elon must have lost his mind. That was one of the most profitable parts of the company with fantastic growth potential.
The best part is he fired everyone in arguably the most important part of his company just a few days after the FTC made non-competes unenforceable, and also just as Ionna is spinning up their charging network.
I doubt any one automaker is in a position to bring everyone on board at once sadly, none of the other EV-only companies are big enough and the traditional ones would have a hard time justifying it to their shareholders. Ionna's in the perfect spot to do it, but Tesla got to where it is because none of the other car companies ever cared quite enough about EVs, so it'll be interesting to see they will put in the effort. Apparently it took them ages just to find a CEO, so I'm not holding my breath.
edit: According to Kyle from Out of Spec in a pinned youtube comment:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LfZqIkk5WQ
So no, this isn't Tesla going wild on expansion with a new team. I live in Kansas, so I would very much like to see a lot more locations. At least he's making noise about uptime and expanding existing locations, but a lot of those probably can't expand much, and we have to hope he didn't lay off too many people to make those promises possible.
I doubt any one automaker is in a position to bring everyone on board at once sadly, none of the other EV-only companies are big enough and the traditional ones would have a hard time justifying it to their shareholders. Ionna's in the perfect spot to do it, but Tesla got to where it is because none of the other car companies ever cared quite enough about EVs, so it'll be interesting to see they will put in the effort. Apparently it took them ages just to find a CEO, so I'm not holding my breath.
edit: According to Kyle from Out of Spec in a pinned youtube comment:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LfZqIkk5WQ
So no, this isn't Tesla going wild on expansion with a new team. I live in Kansas, so I would very much like to see a lot more locations. At least he's making noise about uptime and expanding existing locations, but a lot of those probably can't expand much, and we have to hope he didn't lay off too many people to make those promises possible.
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My dude... you literally linked to a post about how Elon fired a bunch of people at space x "and then starlink took off"
You may nit have meant it that way, but the wording makes it so there's only one way to read that post.
I wouldn't say he's become anti-EV, but rather it's possible he's become anti-consumer EV. Meaning he might now be less enthusiastic about selling cars to people, but he definitely 1000% still wants to make EV robotaxis. Many of his recent actions and statements kind of supports this thesis:
- Pausing all new Giga factories, essentially pausing car production growth.
- Sidelining the $25K Tesla to instead focus on the robotaxi.
- Redistributing nearly all R&D spending away from auto growth and towards AI & autonomy.
- Laying off 10% of the company currently focused on auto production.
- Firing product development and public relations teams.
- Firing the entire supercharger team, which is a consumer EV support product (robotaxis will likely use a different charging infrastructure, possibly inductive).
Elon seems to be in what the Isaacson biography termed "demon mode", where Elon makes huge changes and shifts plans seemingly without regard for public optics or anyone else's opinions. Its very clear that Tesla is changing direction as of late. Before Tesla's EV plan was to ramp consumer EV production to 20 million EV's per year by 2030, that plan is clearly not on the table anymore.
Note this probably doesn't mean Tesla will stop making consumer EV's, but what's available today might be it. Meaning the Model S, X, 3, Y, CT, and Semi, followed by some cheaper low end variants of the 3 & Y later this year by the sound of it. I think these could possibly be the only consumer EV's Tesla is planning, and production of all combined might never exceed a couple million cars per year out of the current existing factories. So something like 3-4 million consumer EV's per year. New factories might be only for robotaxi / Megapack / Optimus production.
No one allowed to talk to the public knows what's really going on with Tesla right now, but yeah something is majorly changing, for better or worse.
This was on "clearance" for $1888 last year and I was so stupid not to get it.So I bought a new EV today:
This my Ego electric zero turn! The only gas thing I own now is my Honda Goldwing, and with the state of electric motorcycles I might have that for a long time yet....
View: https://youtu.be/iVaViiX0xZY?si=kL5J2w7qPCLkYS3V
1. let's all use the Tesla charging standard
2. now let's kill the supercharger network development
what the actual fuck, it's so confusing
Wow, was that the 48" or the 52"? I've seen the 48" Ego on sale with the four batteries, but not the 52" with six batteries like the one I got. Either one for $1800 is a steal, you could easily flip it for a nice profit!
Thanks all!
Sorry for the delay; I took delivery of the car and literally two days later took a major international trip for a week and a half. I've been back a few days now and have some impressions both on the EV9 as well as a first time owner of any electrified vehicle at all.
Interior Impressions
First of all, this is a much bigger car than I ever imagined, and I had already seen the South Korean model in person when I preordered! I'm not sure why, but the size, especially inside, just didn't really click with me until I was driving it. The interior is absolutely cavernous, and the materials feel so luxurious. For reference, before this my wife had a 2023 Sportage, and my last car was a 2019 Kia Stinger, so I'm well acquainted with recent Kia design language and quality.
I set up my toddler's car seat in the back passenger captain's chair along with her baby camera and old iPad Pro she watches her cartoons on. I love that there are USB-C outlets all over the place. Makes for one less cable running through the car, and since it had to plug into the seat in the Sportage, she was increasingly playing with it and ripping it out.
On the other captain's chair, when I adjust it to a comfortable position behind my already adjusted driver's seat, there's plenty (more?) leg room than the second seat in her Sportage. What I wasn't expecting is when I then go into the third row, there's almost as much space as the second row. Adults can very comfortably sit in the third row, and that's honestly not something that I was expecting. Of course, when you have the third row up, the storage space in the back is very limited. I bought about $150 worth of groceries yesterday and it completely filled up that space. For any serious road trip where the third row is in use, you're either going to need to pack pretty light and have some items on the floor in the back, or look into a roof storage. Obviously the roof option would drastically affect range.
For the front, it's kind of hard for me to comment unless there are specific questions. It's amazing, but it's also almost entirely identical to other recent Kia's, minus the new capacitive buttons in place of the dual purpose hvac/media controls panel that was in the Sportage and I think a few other recent cars. I was a bit worried before buying about reviews I saw where they said the buttons can accidentally be pressed and it's annoying. Hasn't happened to me once, so I dunno what they're doing. Finally, the extended hvac controls in between the cluster and the radio are hard to see as others have mentioned. On one hand, that kind of sucks, but on the other, I'm not sure what I would do differently. Either you're filling in that space or leaving it blank. If you leave it blank, then do you add more controls muddying up the console or make them software only? Dunno.
Exterior Impressions
I think either you really like the design or you don't. Already gotten several people asking about the car, saying it looks great, etc. The most common comment, and probably part of why I got the car, is people aren't sure if it's an EV at first. I really like that it's a great design first, and an EV second.
Overall Impressions
And that kind of sums up this car perfectly. It's a really nice, really capable car that runs on electric. If you're looking for a more wildly different experience, you'd want to look more towards Tesla, Rivian, Lucid, etc. This is an incredibly nicely designed Kia SUV with amazing build quality (everything is firmly in place, no creaks or rattles) that runs on electricity. The cabin is the quietest I've ever been in, and I've been in many luxury cars in my lifetime. The seats are incredibly comfortable to sit in and I know road trips would be easy with how it really feels like a living room on wheels. Usually I would end something like this with 'my only complaint(s) are...' but I really don't think I have any up to this point. My Stinger had a couple design issues I didn't like, and my Chevy Malibu before that had nowhere near enough HP/torque for that kind of vehicle. This one just feels right.
Last non first time EV owner thing: I would really recommend the Land trim. It feels like the sweet spot in the lineup this year. I have no doubt next year they'll shift that more towards the Wind, but the fact that model didn't even have driver memory seats made it a no go for me, personally.
EV Housekeeping
I know this is already incredibly long, so I'll keep this as short as possible. As I said before, I've never owned anything like an EV before. Heading into this, my plan was to use the included level 1 charger at home most of the time since we rarely drive anywhere beyond local errands during the week. I had read about people getting ~1.2 kW using level 1s and thought that setup might work. Well, I only get 0.7 kW and it was very easy to see that plan was not going to work. I have a relatively newer house and an electrician quoted me $425 to install a 14-50 (dryer) outlet in the garage. Ordered a Chargepoint level 2, and all of that is getting done on Monday. In the end, not bad at $975 for everything and then getting $290 back on taxes. Related to that, gas price fluctuations are wild. The whole time I was looking at this car, I was comparing against a similarly specced Telluride, and the two came out break even with the Telluride sometimes being $10-15/month cheaper. Now that gas is closer to $3.50 locally, cost of ownership on the EV9 is going to be about $100 cheaper per month. Wild.
As far as driving goes, I'm really trying to learn/get used to one pedal driving. It's so different than the last however many years that it really takes relearning how I drive. And maybe that's the one complaint from above...I wish there was a way to have the car stay in ipedal instead of reverting back to level 3 regen every time the parking brake is engaged.
Anyway, way too long post...sorry. I'll answer any questions if anyone has any. Thanks for reading this far!
Thanks for the impressions. I adore the EV9 so it's good to hear that you like it IRL. Still split between this and future Rivian, but with two little dudes it'll be hard not to take another hard look at the Kia especially considering the relative amount of service centers in Louisiana (zero for Rivian).
Enjoy!
Enjoy!
Sister and brother in law are interested in either a hybrid or a PHEV SUV, and I'm pretty clueless on which models are worth looking at (they were looking at a Kia Sorrento and a Mazda CX-90).
Any recommendations from the thread? Didn't get a budget range out of them.
Any recommendations from the thread? Didn't get a budget range out of them.
Both are good options. I would also look at Volvo's PHEVs, I'm quite fond of them personally. Good mix of luxury, quality, practicality, and not being super stupid in price.
I hadn't really ever looked at available PHEVs until the question was asked yesterday and almost immediately started thinking they might be a good replacement for my wife's (paid off) Subaru. Seem like some pretty nice options out there, including Volvo's offerings.
Hoping folks in here have some experience with some!
Volvo makes very nice cars. Was our favorite for a PHEV, but we got a Model Y in the end.
Volvo does not install the batteries under trunk, which is fantastic. Most other PHEVs will sacrifice some the cargo space for the batteries (which was a showstopper for me)
Volvo does not install the batteries under trunk, which is fantastic. Most other PHEVs will sacrifice some the cargo space for the batteries (which was a showstopper for me)
Aren't most PHEVs panned in terms of reliability with possibly the exception of prius/rav4 primes? Our Prius died and we've been pondering about going fully EV only or switching to PHEVs but we're heading more towards a compact gas car due to price and and not having to deal with winter range / charger searches on both our cars.
Generally the reliability of PHEVs is similar to what the companies normal ICE cars are like. For Toyota, there's very little difference between the standard hybrid and the PHEV variant, its just a larger battery and larger drive motor in the case of the Rav4.
For Volvo, I would rather have one of their EVs over a PHEV. I don't really trust Volvo's current ICE engines for longevity. They're worse than the old modular engine family they replaced.
PHEV reliability really depends on brand but in general from the stats I've seen they're generally a little less reliable than either their ICE or BEV counterparts due to added complexity. Also, a lot more likely to catch on fire, oddly (still a vanishingly small % though, and nothing to worry about).
I also partially agree, I love my Volvo modulars and the newer powertrains they replaced them with are a lot less bullet proof, but I've heard less and less issues post about 2020-ish models, to the point I would definitely consider one. And really Volvo is just like any Euro now where you *really* need to keep up on the preventative maintenance and follow the service schedule to a T with a good mechanic. If you do they tend to be pretty reliable in my experience. If you don't, you better have a lot of free time and money. Well you better have a decent bit of money if you own a Volvo anyway as out of warranty and capped price servicing, they tend to be fairly expensive to service.
In saying that I am one of those people that think of PHEV as somewhat a worst of both worlds for a good deal of families (though not all) that own them, and would 100% recommend a Volvo BEV over PHEV - shame the EX30 is just very expensive here for what you get otherwise it would be going gangbusters. Still, anything creating less exhaust emissions is a small win at this point in history.
yeah true. If a company makes good ICE cars, their PHEVs, hybrids, BEVs will probably also be reliable.
I do sort of agree that the current Volvo's might be better than the first years of the new engines, which I'm sure part of that is due to them no longer making engines that are both turbocharged and supercharged. I just know from a mechanic friend that the first few years of XC90 with the new 2.0 they've replaced a lot of them. Only time will tell if the problem has been fixed.
It is a bit of a shame Volvo turned in to a typical Euro brand when it comes to maintenance and reliability, when in the past they seemed to be the best. Its why I'm hopeful for them going full electric. The old RWD cars just last forever and aren't that picky about staying on top of maintenance. My 1986 240 wagon is at 420k miles and will outlast any other car I'll ever own.
100% agree. Volvo was a super unique car manufacturer and it saddens me that the Volvo of the pre-Ford era is gone (though I personally think they still made a lot of really cool cars in the Ford era, and even still now in the Geely era, it's just a different beast from old-Volvo.).
Still, I give them props for being one of the few manufacturers still keeping wagons/estates alive. Unironically the best vehicle form factor for the majority of families lol.
My girlfriend just got her Subaru Solterra.
Honestly the driving experience is amazing, my gas car feel so... decrepit. I love the way it uses the breaking energy, it is so much more logical. It will probably save the breaks too. Pedal driving ftw!
I am definilty going electric for my next car.
F*** oil
Honestly the driving experience is amazing, my gas car feel so... decrepit. I love the way it uses the breaking energy, it is so much more logical. It will probably save the breaks too. Pedal driving ftw!
I am definilty going electric for my next car.
F*** oil
Congrats to your girlfriend, they're definitely very live withable cars. I liked the one I drove a lot more than I expected. I just wish the central entertainment/ climate control area/upper central console bit didn't look so dorky lol. Very much "I really can't figure out how to make this look nice, so fuck it pure function no form babiiiiiiie".
And for sure, getting a BEV has been such a nice QOL upgrade for our family. We've done nearly 10,000kms in the first quarter of this year and it's been excellent. Taken it on some 14 hour road trips from Sydney to Adelaide and had no issues.
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The Y is very likely getting a refresh before the year is out, possibly early next year. Vented seats, LED light strips inside, better suspension, dual pane glass all around, and some other stuff probably.
Rented a Kia EV6 for a trip and have to say the visibility feels really awful. Thick pillars, small rear window with no wiper (was raining). Even the headrests feel like they hinder turning movement. I looked up the CR review:
Sounds about right. Also can't get my phone to do CarPlay which is pretty much a guaranteed bad time. Ah well, was fun to test it. Looking forward to getting back into my M2.
The visibility is my biggest gripe about the car. Everything else I love or doesn't bother me much. Haven't experienced the issue with the rear window. CarPlay has always worked fined plugged and when using a wireless dongle. Didn't like the connection delay or the latency when switch songs with the wireless dongle, so just stuck with the wired connection.
I feel like the blind spot view-monitor cameras (in the Technology Package addon for Wind; included on GT-line trim) should have been standard.
It also includes the 360 parking assist cameras; between those I haven't had visibility issues with my GT-line EV6.
I could see it being an issue w/o them.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/0...rgers-rehiring-laid-off-staff-amid-new-plans/
This seems to be a totally normal thing to do.
This seems to be a totally normal thing to do.
I'm old enough to not trust cameras, but am curious how different it would feel. The pillars are just enormous, I never felt like I had good visibility even for forward left turns.
Charged it at an EVgo before returning. Ostensibly should support 350 kW but only saw it get up to 90 kW while charging. Still fast but a bit disappointing. Especially at over $15 for ~40% of charge. Still, interesting experience, definitely spoiled by my Leafs with their nightly garage recharge.
Wow, the new Porsche Taycan Sport Turismo is a charging beast!
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txM6ws_e4Ps
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txM6ws_e4Ps
Not super relevant to the US folks here, but the new BYD Shark was recently unveiled in Mexico.
View: https://youtu.be/1589j04paFs
www.carexpert.com.au
Currently only PHEV, but full BEV expected in the near future.
It's definitely an interesting proposition. Definitely leans on the weekend warrior that can go to a worksite side of the utility/pickup equation. One of the most useful things will be the Vehicle-to-Load capability at a worksite and I think that will be the initially unsung but long term big win for these PHEV and BEV utes coming out. The platform it's developed from is pretty well regarded in China which is confidence inspiring.
100km full electric NEDC range (so like... 60ish real world) is a little on the low side for a 30kwh battery, so hopefully that's taking into account being fully loaded.
The actual combined range is also fairly mediocre, being about 300-400km less to a tank than my previous work ute but that's not a huge deal, still plenty of range.
I actually like the exterior styling a decent bit, but the photos we've seen of the interior so far are... ehh. More on the Atto 3 side of the love/hate scale than the Seal side. That's an area where the recently released GWM Cannon Alpha will eat it's lunch as that's a genuinely nice place to be in. But we'll have to see how it is when I actually get a chance to sit in a Shark. Also weirdly seem to be using their smaller 12in screen rather than their bigger 15in screen that they use on their larger and less entry level vehicle's, curious what that's about. It's still a good and large screen but it seems kind of odd considering it's a big vehicle that will start at probably 45kUSD at a minimum.
I've seen a lot of discussion around the 2.5T towing capacity which will take it out of the equation for the people towing large caravans and large work trailers etc, but considering the Ford Ranger Raptor is one of the best selling vehicles in Australia and is also a weekend performance orientated ute with a 2.5T towing capacity, I think that's definitely the market whose lunch they want to eat.
View: https://youtu.be/1589j04paFs
2025 BYD Shark plug-in hybrid ute unveiled
The BYD Shark, the company's first ute, has been launched with the power of a 4.0-litre V8 but the fuel economy of small four cylinder.
www.carexpert.com.au
Currently only PHEV, but full BEV expected in the near future.
It's definitely an interesting proposition. Definitely leans on the weekend warrior that can go to a worksite side of the utility/pickup equation. One of the most useful things will be the Vehicle-to-Load capability at a worksite and I think that will be the initially unsung but long term big win for these PHEV and BEV utes coming out. The platform it's developed from is pretty well regarded in China which is confidence inspiring.
100km full electric NEDC range (so like... 60ish real world) is a little on the low side for a 30kwh battery, so hopefully that's taking into account being fully loaded.
The actual combined range is also fairly mediocre, being about 300-400km less to a tank than my previous work ute but that's not a huge deal, still plenty of range.
I actually like the exterior styling a decent bit, but the photos we've seen of the interior so far are... ehh. More on the Atto 3 side of the love/hate scale than the Seal side. That's an area where the recently released GWM Cannon Alpha will eat it's lunch as that's a genuinely nice place to be in. But we'll have to see how it is when I actually get a chance to sit in a Shark. Also weirdly seem to be using their smaller 12in screen rather than their bigger 15in screen that they use on their larger and less entry level vehicle's, curious what that's about. It's still a good and large screen but it seems kind of odd considering it's a big vehicle that will start at probably 45kUSD at a minimum.
I've seen a lot of discussion around the 2.5T towing capacity which will take it out of the equation for the people towing large caravans and large work trailers etc, but considering the Ford Ranger Raptor is one of the best selling vehicles in Australia and is also a weekend performance orientated ute with a 2.5T towing capacity, I think that's definitely the market whose lunch they want to eat.
I am looking into my next EV after my 2021 Niro EV lease is up in the next month. I've narrowed down my selection to basically the Hyundai Ioniq 5, Hyundai Ioniq 6, and Kia EV6 (no N-type or GT specs on any). Initial price feelers have them probably running around similar amounts, so I think its ultimately going to come down to preference. I've been doing lots of research, reading reviews, and seems each of those options has some love-it-or-hate-it quirks, making it hard to decide.
Would love to hear general impressions here from any owners of the above - anything you wish you knew before you purchased, anything you absolutely loath, and any recommendations. The Niro has served me well but I'm not in love with it and I'd rather my next EV be on improved tech (e.g. faster charging).
Would love to hear general impressions here from any owners of the above - anything you wish you knew before you purchased, anything you absolutely loath, and any recommendations. The Niro has served me well but I'm not in love with it and I'd rather my next EV be on improved tech (e.g. faster charging).
Out of those three, for me personally the 6 would be a no but that's just purely subjective in that I have eyes (snark snark snark).
I've spent some time with both an Ioniq 5 and EV6 and in general they're very similar. What I would say would be the big decider is would you prefer a car that is a bit more practical with a bit more space, and that will have an easier time with families? Or would you prefer something a bit more sporty?
The Ioniq 5 is the former and is definitely the more utility focused vehicle of the two, with the EV6 feeling a little bit more like a drivers car.
For me I also just think the interior in the EV6 is a lot nicer place to be even if it is more modern and less futuristic, and I find the exterior to be a lot more pleasant to the eye as well.
Really though they're more alike than not and both are good cars. I find Hyundai's ADAS systems a little more annoying, though I think they're also a little more advanced from memory but I could be wrong. I definitely found them a little more annoying though regardless, though that may have changed since I last spent time with these cars.
Thank you for the perspective. Coincidentally your opinion on the 6 - there is one in my neighborhood and certain angles I absolutely love the look, and then other angles I am really turned off. Its a very hot and cold design. I am a little more inclined to the 5's more retro/pixel style, but I do like the EV6s more traditional stylings and very aggressive front end.
On the utility side, our other family vehicle is a mid-size ICE SUV, which we usually use for big trips and transporting large items. I do think the Ioniq 5 gives a ton of utility (and is just cavernous on the interior in a good way - hard to imagine any passenger being uncomfortable in it), but I think I am a little more inclined to the EV6's more driver-centric design. The Ioniq 6 kind of straddles in between those two design languages, which is why I also consider it still in play (exterior styling aside).
There are insane lease deals for these 3 cars, roughly 190 to 210 a month with 2 to 3k down.
Suggest the lease guide from electrek.co for deals:
Electric Vehicle Lease Guide
Shortcuts to Dealers Listed: Acura – Audi – BMW – Cadillac – Chevrolet – Ford – Genesis – GMC – Honda – Hyundai...
electrek.co
I'd personally go with the ioniq 5 due to styling and space but ultimately everyone has a preference. Paying 280 or so every month with taxes/fees is pretty damn good for a 40k+ car though. Good luck!
Yep, I'm leaning towards those two trims for the EV6. I may go Wind+Tech as I'm taller and the moon roof in the GT-Line I test drove felt a little too close for comfort. The blind spots on the EV6 are definitely more impactful than those on the Ioniq 5 so the extra cameras would be great.
Thanks for the input. I'm tracking all three models on LeaseHackr forums and starting to engage dealers. Can pretty much slide from my Niro EV to a more tricked out Ioniq or EV6 for just a bit more monthly which seems bonkers.
Leasehackr is great, it's how I got my damn good deal on a jeep 4xe. And yeah, bonkers af.
Have the GT-Line EV6 and I love it. I feel like I'm in the minority here, but I like the EV6 styling a lot more than the retro style of the Ioniq 5. I've mentioned before that the only really critiques I have are I wish the interior was maybe a bit bigger and the lack of visibility from the B-pillars.
Is there any upcoming/future plans for manufacturers to start working on coupes/sedan EVs?
I'm super tired of SUVs/crossovers and yeah I know they are the big sellers. The model 3 and the Ioniq 6 seem like the only true affordable options(aka under 40-45k). I just really hate the Model 3's interior design, its so boring(no gauges, everything controlled by a touch screen). The Ioniq 6 is sort of the opposite, interior is better but the exterior design is kinda eh.
Otherwise, I'm holding onto my 2008 Mazda 3 GT as long as I possibly can.
I'm super tired of SUVs/crossovers and yeah I know they are the big sellers. The model 3 and the Ioniq 6 seem like the only true affordable options(aka under 40-45k). I just really hate the Model 3's interior design, its so boring(no gauges, everything controlled by a touch screen). The Ioniq 6 is sort of the opposite, interior is better but the exterior design is kinda eh.
Otherwise, I'm holding onto my 2008 Mazda 3 GT as long as I possibly can.
"affordable" is a difficult requirement, as it's such a subjective matter and also depends A LOT on lease/financing offers
- MG5
- Fiat 500E
- ID.3 (more a Golf than an SUV imo)
- VW ID.7 (is this even available in the US?), that's a fantastic EV
- BMW i4/i5
- Mercedes EQE
- Nio ET5
- Genesis G80
- the new Polestar 3 or 4, forgot which one is more of a limousine.
other cars like the Taycan are everything but affordable, so I don't mention them lol
- MG5
- Fiat 500E
- ID.3 (more a Golf than an SUV imo)
- VW ID.7 (is this even available in the US?), that's a fantastic EV
- BMW i4/i5
- Mercedes EQE
- Nio ET5
- Genesis G80
- the new Polestar 3 or 4, forgot which one is more of a limousine.
other cars like the Taycan are everything but affordable, so I don't mention them lol
Thanks, some of those look pretty cool. I'm more hoping that Honda/Toyota/Mazda/Nissan start getting in on the non suv EVs, but I'm guessing thats too much to hope for :(
Nissan? Maybe, they sell the Leaf at least... the rest has to wake up first lol. Japanese car manufacturers really missed the party so far