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mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,950
Because there is no competition. None of these other launchers have provided any valuable service to customers that Steam wasn't already doing since they were created. The biggest myth in gaming is the bullshit "competition is good" line that gets parroted EVERY TIME one of these pops up. You'd think by now people would realize just how little other clients have offered anyone but I guess not.
No offense but if fortnite is exclusive to Unreal, quite a bunch of people out there already have the launcher.
It's kinda why no one gave 2 shits that you had to have battle.net for Diablo3 or Starcraft or whatever.
I doubt that this is really that much of a problem outside of the Steam hardcores.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
That's not the point. Different business have different features that doesn't mean we should go hoping only Amazon exists in the market.

It's a ridiculously weird mindset that will never make sense to me. If you don't like the marketplace don't use it don't go hoping no competition exists.
People would love for competition to exist.
The issue is that a single one of the clients that have popped up is actual competition in any way. I'm a bit more positive on this one because it actually has a differentiator for developers, but that's about it. If their statements regarding curation and timed exclusives hold still, it's pretty much garbage that doesn't really qualify as proper competition.
 

Jobbs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,639
I think this is fucking awesome, and I hope (and believe) that Epic's storefront will be successful over the long term.

I get it -- That if you have 500 games in your Steam library, it's not going to be easy to get you to main another platform. That's totally true. I suspect that you're not Epic's primary target, though. Epic has a kajillion young people using their launcher -- teenagers. 12 year olds. Many of these people don't have 500 games in their Steam library if they have a Steam account at all. That's the future. They want those people locked into their ecosystem for the next generation.
 

Akelisrain

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,417
Bel Air MD
I'm a one-man indie dev who just released their second title on Steam. Would I like to get more than 70% of the revenue? Sure. But for that 18% difference:
1) My games support integrated leaderboards--a critical feature in score-attack games like mine--and I don't have to run any servers.
2) My games support Xbox One/360, DualShock4, Switch Pro, and Steam Controllers, without me having to do anything.
3) My games have a set of Achievements.
4) My games support cloud saving.
5) My games can't be copied/pirated willy-nilly, because they can detect whether they're running through the Steam client, and they quit if they're not.
6) Steam Support has gotten back to me very quickly when I've encountered any issues, and they've been very thorough when reviewing my builds.

The price difference is justified imo. My customers get more and I get more.

If Epic offers comparable service in the future, that'd be awesome. I hope they do. But if not, then dollars aren't everything.
Many things to consider, and this shows why it is worth the 30%
 

Rizific

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,971
i was never one to really care about what launcher im using. ill go wherever has the cheapest games at the time.
 

Static

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,126
Can devs also generate keys to sell elsewhere for free? If it did both that'd be impressive.
 

Derrick01

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,289
Can you name 1 or 2 benefits that i have gotten as a costumer so far from plattforms like Origen, Uplay or Discord store?

It's funny because Origin is probably the least useful of all the clients out there. Even the w10 store has some use, like if you care about xbox achievements and tying things to your MS account.

Then you remember that Origin was the first shitty client to appear when EA pulled out of steam almost 10 years ago and they still serve no use to the customer. It's been nearly 8 years since it launched and has done nothing. Such amazing competition.
 

AvernOffset

Member
May 6, 2018
546
What competition looks like:
  • Battle.net: Exclusive games
  • Bethesda launcher: Exclusive games
  • MS Store: Exclusive games
  • Origin: Exclusive games
  • Discord: Timed exclusive games
  • Epic: Exclusive games
The only one of these launchers that has provided any actual competition was Origin, which had refunds at a time Valve didn't. Because that was some real competition, Valve turned around and added refunds to Steam pretty quickly. Then Origin... Stopped even attempting to compete, and just went on using exclusive games to drive people to their inferior client.

This isn't a marketplace of competing storefronts, all pressuring each other into improving. It's a bunch of tiny monopolies. Nobody wants to give Valve a 30% cut, so they make trash clients with a fraction of the features Steam offers, and pass on the savings to their shareholders and the problems to their customers.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,417
What competition looks like:
  • Battle.net: Exclusive games
  • Bethesda launcher: Exclusive games
  • MS Store: Exclusive games
  • Origin: Exclusive games
  • Discord: Timed exclusive games
  • Epic: Exclusive games
The only one of these launchers that has provided any actual competition was Origin, which had refunds at a time Valve didn't. Because that was some real competition, Valve turned around and added refunds to Steam pretty quickly. Then Origin... Stopped even attempting to compete, and just went on using exclusive games to drive people to their inferior client.

This isn't a marketplace of competing storefronts, all pressuring each other into improving. It's a bunch of tiny monopolies. Nobody wants to give Valve a 30% cut, so they make trash clients with a fraction of the features Steam offers, and pass on the savings to their shareholders and the problems to their customers.


But it's good for us, consumers.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,833
I think this is fucking awesome, and I hope (and believe) that Epic's storefront will be successful over the long term.

I get it -- That if you have 500 games in your Steam library, it's not going to be easy to get you to main another platform. That's totally true. I suspect that you're not Epic's primary target, though. Epic has a kajillion young people using their launcher -- teenagers. 12 year olds. Many of these people don't have 500 games in their Steam library if they have a Steam account at all. That's the future. They want those people locked into their ecosystem for the next generation.

Teenagers or 12 year olds you mentioned don't have disposable income and they don't own credit cards. Targeting that audience is wrong.
 

Lausebub

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,156
I'm a one-man indie dev who just released their second title on Steam. Would I like to get more than 70% of the revenue? Sure. But for that 18% difference:
1) My games support integrated leaderboards--a critical feature in score-attack games like mine--and I don't have to run any servers.
2) My games support Xbox One/360, DualShock4, Switch Pro, and Steam Controllers, without me having to do anything.
3) My games have a set of Achievements.
4) My games support cloud saving.
5) My games can't be copied/pirated willy-nilly, because they can detect whether they're running through the Steam client, and they quit if they're not.
6) Steam Support has gotten back to me very quickly when I've encountered any issues, and they've been very thorough when reviewing my builds.

The price difference is justified imo. My customers get more and I get more.

If Epic offers comparable service in the future, that'd be awesome. I hope they do. But if not, then dollars aren't everything.

Can we just pin this into every steam/valve thread in the future?
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
That sounds pretty great.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
A 12% cut sure sounds nice... But it's curated, so loads of games won't get on and their devs won't get that opportunity. Assuming my primary interest was in supporting devs, which it isn't, I'd still see no reason to use this over itch.io, which can give devs an even better cut and isn't going to exclude games based on Epic's interests.

I'm getting pretty sick of curation (of digital stores) in general. Capitalism isn't anywhere near a meritocracy to begin with, but letting large companies play kingmaker takes things way further. It feels stifling and unhealthy to gaming as a whole.
If your primary concern is over supporting developers then yes, you can buy on itch.io.

Or you can buy a Steam key for their game using Paypal -- at which point they get an even larger share and you get all the Steam features.

I was down with this until the "paying for exclusives" part. As a consumer, I have no incentive to use their store anyway, but good luck to them.
Right, the first step to convince me that you are actually trying to compete in a way that benefits me as a customer is not paying to reduce my options.

That's not the point. Different business have different features that doesn't mean we should go hoping only Amazon exists in the market.

It's a ridiculously weird mindset that will never make sense to me. If you don't like the marketplace don't use it don't go hoping no competition exists.
"Competition" achieved by buying exclusivity doesn't foster consumer choice in any way, shape or form.
In fact, exclusivity is the most anti-competitive thing there is.
You no longer need to compete when you eliminated all other options.
 

Static

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,126
It's funny because Origin is probably the least useful of all the clients out there. Even the w10 store has some use, like if you care about xbox achievements and tying things to your MS account.

Then you remember that Origin was the first shitty client to appear when EA pulled out of steam almost 10 years ago and they still serve no use to the customer. It's been nearly 8 years since it launched and has done nothing. Such amazing competition.
In their defense, their subscription service isn't the worst thing in the world, and they had support for multiple game library directories before Steam did.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,473
I don't like the closed off approach they seem to be taking.

An open store with humans showcasing good content is the ideal.

Steam went to far with "users rate everything" and discovery algorithms and I would like to see someone try and have editors like Apple does.

Itch.io does this and they usually showcase great stuff. If every indie released their games their that would be great!

I also how Apple handles that stuff with human curated selections.
 

Veidt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
511
What competition looks like:
  • Battle.net: Exclusive games
  • Bethesda launcher: Exclusive games
  • MS Store: Exclusive games
  • Origin: Exclusive games
  • Discord: Timed exclusive games
  • Epic: Exclusive games
The only one of these launchers that has provided any actual competition was Origin, which had refunds at a time Valve didn't. Because that was some real competition, Valve turned around and added refunds to Steam pretty quickly. Then Origin... Stopped even attempting to compete, and just went on using exclusive games to drive people to their inferior client.

This isn't a marketplace of competing storefronts, all pressuring each other into improving. It's a bunch of tiny monopolies. Nobody wants to give Valve a 30% cut, so they make trash clients with a fraction of the features Steam offers, and pass on the savings to their shareholders and the problems to their customers.

GOG is pretty much the only platform that is trying to compete with Steam on features rather than exclusive games, although they still have a long, long way to go. Even then, they still had a couple of exclusive games like Gwent and Thronebreaker (the latter ended up being released on Steam afterwards due to lower than expected launch sales).
 

Arulan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,571
You'd think people just took their first class of economics with the blind it's competition! statements.

New platforms that do not try to compete by providing better services, but rather through exclusivity is terrible competition, and only hurts customers. Closed-platforms (i.e. consoles) that force you into using their one (paid) service, one store, approved accessories, and largely compete by exclusivity nonsense is terrible competition.

Competition would look like a platform that offers new competitive features to their customers, and does not force people's hands with exclusives, even among their first-party games. This is GOG.

Steam is the best gaming platform by far because it offers the best features to both customers and developers. Despite being at the top, they've continued to release incredible features that are far ahead of any competitors (on the PC and outside of it). And to top it all of, they've insisted on open-platform policies such as allowing developers and third-party storefronts to sell keys taking no cut that ironically create better competition for customers than what these other (vast majority) competitors have managed to do.
 

kaishek

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,144
Texas
Not gonna laud this just to fetishize the concept of competition (of which Steam has plenty and has crushed), and I don't trust Epic Games overall corporate structure.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,191
If your primary concern is over supporting developers then yes, you can buy on itch.io.

Or you can buy a Steam key for their game using Paypal -- at which point they get an even larger share and you get all the Steam features.


Right, the first step to convince me that you are actually trying to compete in a way that benefits me as a customer is not paying to reduce my options.


"Competition" achieved by buying exclusivity doesn't foster consumer choice in any way, shape or form.
In fact, exclusivity is the most anti-competitive thing there is.
You no longer need to compete when you eliminated all other options.
This is logically incorrect. This isn't a new universe they're creating here. They're implicitly competing for the consumers dollars especially in an comparitively open marketplace. A new marketplace that doesn't offer anything meaningful can damage sales of said product. I'm pretty sure yourself is evidence of this. Competition means the people involved can compete well or poorly.
 

Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,150
China
So, Artifact and Dota aren't exclusive.

That wasnt the point. The point was that the other launchers dont offer anything that Steam offers and often even less. Battle.net literally has regional friendlists and progression systems. If I want to play against an American friend in Hearthstone, my whole progress starts at 0 again if I choose NA as a region.

Also DOTA2 isnt exclusive as its available on the PerfectWorld Launcher.
 

Echo

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,482
Mt. Whatever
Why are half the user names in here, especially the ones chanting "competition is good," literally never spotted in any other PC threads?

:thonking:
 

kaishek

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,144
Texas
You'd think people just took their first class of economics with the blind it's competition! statements.

New platforms that do not try to compete by providing better services, but rather through exclusivity is terrible competition, and only hurts customers. Closed-platforms (i.e. consoles) that force you into using their one (paid) service, one store, approved accessories, and largely compete by exclusivity nonsense is terrible competition.

Competition would look like a platform that offers new competitive features to their customers, and does not force people's hands with exclusives, even among their first-party games. This is GOG.

Steam is the best gaming platform by far because it offers the best features to both customers and developers. Despite being at the top, they've continued to release incredible features that are far ahead of any competitors (on the PC and outside of it). And to top it all of, they've insisted on open-platform policies such as allowing developers and third-party storefronts to sell keys taking no cut that ironically create better competition for customers than what these other (vast majority) competitors have managed to do.

thank you so much for this post, seeing the worship of competition as a good in and of itself is pretty frustrating and seems to shut down constructive conversation about a lot of things in the industry. "competitive" industries are sometimes far more corrupt and anti-consumer than those dominated by one, or the competition may be illusory, or it might be wasteful, etc.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,950
Because these days it is easier to buy kid VBucks or whatever or give it a phone than be parent and do your job.
Then they can just allow people to buy game using VBucks, thus spurring people to splurge even more on VBucks.
Where exactly is the problem?
I don't really get the issue with exclusives either, you can still use Steam launcher with them anyway, heck you can use Steam for Heartstone after all and I'm pretty sure that's not on the Steam store after all.
Heck I even see tutorials to put Fortnite in Steam clients too.
I really don't see how this endeavor is going to make any difference for people who wants to keep using Steam.
Maybe you'll buy it on Epic store and integrate it in Steam or not.
If it's not interesting it will die and devs will go elsewhere.
I hope the argument is not about Steam sales because that was a fantastic way to devalue all the games present on the store.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,162
I'm a one-man indie dev who just released their second title on Steam. Would I like to get more than 70% of the revenue? Sure. But for that 18% difference:
1) My games support integrated leaderboards--a critical feature in score-attack games like mine--and I don't have to run any servers.
2) My games support Xbox One/360, DualShock4, Switch Pro, and Steam Controllers, without me having to do anything.
3) My games have a set of Achievements.
4) My games support cloud saving.
5) My games can't be copied/pirated willy-nilly, because they can detect whether they're running through the Steam client, and they quit if they're not.
6) Steam Support has gotten back to me very quickly when I've encountered any issues, and they've been very thorough when reviewing my builds.

The price difference is justified imo. My customers get more and I get more.

If Epic offers comparable service in the future, that'd be awesome. I hope they do. But if not, then dollars aren't everything.
Why does Epic need to offer you comparable service for a far lower fee? With everything else in life, if you want more you probably pay more, and if you pay less you probably get less.

Placing your game on multiple stores could mean additional sales plus higher royalties. Assuming the Epic store is more popular with younger players on Fortnite than hardcore Steam users, that's a potentially huge market you're not exposed to.

When Steam started and revenue was smaller, a case could absolutely be made for a 30% cut. Now, discoverability is at all-time lows and there's no way Valve's costs have gone up as fast as revenue, which was estimated at $4.3BN last year not including MTX or DLC, so likely $6BN. 30% of that is nearly $2BN per year. Of course they're allowed to be profitable, however in a typical market as costs for commodity services drop in relation to revenue, those savings get passed on. Instead, almost none of the stores actually tried to compete.
 

Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,150
China
Why does Epic need to offer you comparable service for a far lower fee? With everything else in life, if you want more you probably pay more, and if you pay less you probably get less.

Placing your game on multiple stores could mean additional sales plus higher royalties. Assuming the Epic store is more popular with younger players on Fortnite than hardcore Steam users, that's a potentially huge market you're not exposed to.

When Steam started and revenue was smaller, a case could absolutely be made for a 30% cut. Now, discoverability is at all-time lows and there's no way Valve's costs have gone up as fast as revenue, which was estimated at $4.3BN last year not including MTX or DLC, so likely $6BN. 30% of that is nearly $2BN per year. Of course they're allowed to be profitable, however in a typical market as costs for commodity services drop in relation to revenue, those savings get passed on. Instead, almost none of the stores actually tried to compete.

But why should the average consumer buy it on the Epic Launcher compared to Steam. Look at UWP. People buy it on Steam, not UWP. Call of Duty literally had 2 people online in the UWP version.

Also I doubt the games will be cheaper on Epics Launcher than on Steam. It would still be: "Tales of Vesperia 50€ Steam, 50€ Epic Launcher, 50€ PSN, 50€ Switch eshop". And as a consumer where do you get more features on PC? Steam.

Yeah, that's gonna be a yikes for me. Don't like Tencent.

They are not owned by Tencent. They have a 48% share, so not a majority shareholder (yet).
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,191
I like how we're acting as if all these store fronts existing didn't directly lead to valve Lowering the platforms cuts and the cuts seen here that directly allow Devs more leeway in terms sale prices.

But clearly nothing positive has come from this.
 

Khrol

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,179
Whoopty doo.

That's great and all but as others have said a much larger cut from a base a fraction of the size of Steam...do the math.

I get why these companies are trying to create their own market place and launchers but we seriously don't need half of them. Unless you're going to offer extremely appealing products like Blizzard or focus on catering to niche like GoG you probably shouldn't bother.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,162
But why should the average consumer buy it on the Epic Launcher compared to Steam. Look at UWP. People buy it on Steam, not UWP. Call of Duty literally had 2 people online in the UWP version.

Also I doubt the games will be cheaper on Epics Launcher than on Steam. It would still be: "Tales of Vesperia 50€ Steam, 50€ Epic Launcher, 50€ PSN, 50€ Switch eshop". And as a consumer where do you get more features on PC? Steam.
That's up to each consumer. I don't mean that to sound dismissive, I'm just saying that's how a free market is supposed to work. The customers will be there, or they won't. Makes no difference to me, and I have zero interest in Fortnite. If they're successful and if more devs demand a fairer rate from Valve, and Valve ends up cutting their rate, more profits for the people actually making the games is a good thing for gamers. It's surely better than devs going under while the storefronts for those games get rich.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,139
I still have yet to see why people would switch to this platform or just use it beyond the odd game.

Great for devs though, I just don't see it being successful.
 

Illusion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
I never liked Steam and hardly use it whatsoever. I'll definitely use thos as my go to for PC gaming. Sign me up!
 

thirtypercent

Member
Oct 18, 2018
680
GOG is pretty much the only platform that is trying to compete with Steam on features rather than exclusive games, although they still have a long, long way to go. Even then, they still had a couple of exclusive games like Gwent and Thronebreaker (the latter ended up being released on Steam afterwards due to lower than expected launch sales).

Ubisoft too, they sell their games on a couple of stores and let us decide where to buy. Yes, Uplay always starts up when you launch one of their games but over the years they made it less and less intrusive. Not perfect but easy to ignore and preferable to what the rest is doing.

Why are half the user names in here, especially the ones chanting "competition is good," literally never spotted in any other PC threads?

:thonking:

Obviously because before Epic there was no real competition and evil Valve kept them away, duh! Now they'll be there day 1, spending silly amounts of money on Tencent's friendly neighborhood store and talking about all things PC gaming day in, day out. Just you wait.
 
Last edited:

ramoisdead

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,652
You'd think people just took their first class of economics with the blind it's competition! statements.

New platforms that do not try to compete by providing better services, but rather through exclusivity is terrible competition, and only hurts customers. Closed-platforms (i.e. consoles) that force you into using their one (paid) service, one store, approved accessories, and largely compete by exclusivity nonsense is terrible competition.

Competition would look like a platform that offers new competitive features to their customers, and does not force people's hands with exclusives, even among their first-party games. This is GOG.

Steam is the best gaming platform by far because it offers the best features to both customers and developers. Despite being at the top, they've continued to release incredible features that are far ahead of any competitors (on the PC and outside of it). And to top it all of, they've insisted on open-platform policies such as allowing developers and third-party storefronts to sell keys taking no cut that ironically create better competition for customers than what these other (vast majority) competitors have managed to do.

Quoting cuz it's true.
 

Subutai

Metal Face DOOM
Member
Oct 25, 2017
937
I never liked Steam and hardly use it whatsoever. I'll definitely use thos as my go to for PC gaming. Sign me up!
Posts like these seem so disingenuous and fake. You don't like or use Steam, but randomly Epic puts out a launcher and you're ready to use it instantly! It's pretty odd behavior, or maybe that's just me.
 

tsmike

Member
Oct 27, 2017
71
Another Steam-competitor that's not actually going to try and compete with Steam. Awesome.
 

zon

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,432
Posts like these seem so disingenuous and fake. You don't like or use Steam, but randomly Epic puts out a launcher and you're ready to use it instantly! It's pretty odd behavior, or maybe that's just me.

It's not just you. It's called shilling/astroturfing. It's being done a lot in threads that are somehow related to Valve and Steam.
 

Acidote

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,996
I share the sentiment, all of those companies "competing" with exclusives can fuck the right off.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Honestly with that Unreal Engine royalty discount and the fact that Unreal is already the most popular game engine I don't see how their store won't offer a lot of games. What matters to me is what does the store offer as a consumer.

I would like it to be possible to access in game content in a web browser. Quite a few games involve complex systems that you can study over time. If I could access various in game UI through my phone or tablet that would be a big step up in the user experience.

But that's really hard to implement so I wouldn't expect that any time soon.

If Epic is serious a less restrictive form of offline play would make at least look at their platform.

One thing they could easily do that would make me an instant fan is offer a subscription fee enabled sharing program where we can invite 3 friends to play on the same copy of any game in our library. This way games we individually are interested in but ended up with dead multiplayer servers can now be played with the subscriptions we pay while convincing other people who don't own the game yet to play with us.