I guess I'm not following you, because to me they aren't lacking and they have provided more than just "data" to make the argument. Their entire video series is qualitative analysis of tropes.
Female Representation in Video Games Isn't Getting Any Better [WIRED] (Sarkeesian Annual E3 Analysis)
- Thread starter Deleted member 8861
- Start date
I guess I'm not following you, because to me they aren't lacking and they have provided more than just "data" to make the argument. Their entire video series is qualitative analysis of tropes.
I feel like the multiple options should be split into Male Dominant and Female Dominant. So for example, you can play as a female, but the shown gameplay/cinematic is either male only, or runtime is primarily displays the male playable characters, and/or boxart reveals display only or predominantly the male playable characters, then this will be a clear vote on Male Dominant. If the exact opposite occurs, so female characters are more the focus, it will be Female Dominant.
If the games were analyzed in this fashion, Male and Male Dominant combination would still clearly outpace the Female and Female Dominant combination.
If the games were analyzed in this fashion, Male and Male Dominant combination would still clearly outpace the Female and Female Dominant combination.
Nah, as a gay man, I'd happily take literally any homosexual that isnt stereotypically androgynous/flamboyant/predatory regardless of depth. Even a silent protagonist who is in a relationship/cartoonishly shows attraction to dudes.
Representation is representation, it doesnt have to be ground breaking or deep, it just has to not be gross.
I hope the ubisoft style "same personality for both" does not become a trend.. if it's just cosmetic paint and change in waistline, they can keep just one of them to me (the Woman preferably ;) but i am partial ).
I don't play enough games to try every single player game with multiple options, but the later one was not great (very limited personal experience, i concur, and i would love to read that indeed most do alter personality and experience, a bit like an improving continuation of Dishonored 2).
Yeah, just showing pure numbers isn't telling the whole story. Significant changes are being made at the pointy end of gaming, which is really important.
I'm still somewhat astounded (in a good way) at the shift of Gears from 1 to 5. From Uber macho:
To a female lead and a significant second female presence on the box art.
Although tbf this change is almost as significant between 4 and 5, even.
I would like to see more of a breakdown how this is even counted. How do you count games with multiple characters and multiplayer games these outnumber single player games. Everyone is headed towards giving players choices and being generic as possible without seeming that way to maximize profit.
If we're not talking about representing the player with the protagonist, then there is no point in limiting this criteria to playable characters, because the kind of representation you're discussing can be presented through NPCs. This renders the whole statistic useless.
I'm not sure how you're getting this, i don't see how the player not being able to choose what they play as reduces the importance of the player's avatar. In fact a big part of representation is giving the main spot to underrepresented people so that those most well served by representation (i.e. white heterosexual young adult male) must contend with abandoning their privileged space. In a generalized sense, yes, there are many points of contact with representation beyond embodying someone as a main player (and some games don't have main characters at all), but games where the player embodies a character are still by and large the vast majority of videogames and that's still probably the most valuable means of representation.
I didn't say it was? But they can't really make the new AC game a female only protagonist using that data I guess. Though maybe the male dominance was swayed by the Spartan family history influence
I think that chart should display Advertised with Male, or Advertised with Female for Multiple Options.
Its good to see that there are so many more games where you can play a female protagonist. Disappointing that Sarkeesian continues to use misleading statistics for her worthy cause.
Its fine to compare the number of exclusively male protagonists to the number of exclusively female ones, but Sarkeesian effectively makes games with a choice of protagonist a negative, which is nonsense.
Its fine to compare the number of exclusively male protagonists to the number of exclusively female ones, but Sarkeesian effectively makes games with a choice of protagonist a negative, which is nonsense.
Still not where it needs to be, but I disagree that no progress is being made. While female only games haven't increased, choices increased by a good amount which is taking place of male only games.
Consider that this year, only 21% of games shown had exclusively male leads. Compare that to 32% in 2015 or the whopping 41% in 2016. I'd consider that progress even though there is still more work to be done.
Consider that this year, only 21% of games shown had exclusively male leads. Compare that to 32% in 2015 or the whopping 41% in 2016. I'd consider that progress even though there is still more work to be done.
Its a meaningless datapoint
Multiple Choice protagonists are typically written as gender neutral or with the male choice in mind. As someone else said, Pallet Swaps aren't representation
Actually that was not bad. Anyhow you force any genders is not good in new gen. Like odyssey choice must be provided for the player ! If I want to play male or female, is my personal choice. So far Ubisoft did their best with odyssey ! Two strong protags ! People had choice and no one can complain why female or male is used more than the other one.
Last edited:
I don't agree, that's a position that denies millions of people, men and women, their positive experiences with those characters, but if you think its a meaningless datapoint then that's fine. Treat it as a meaningless datapoint. Exclude it, contrast the number of exclusively male protagonists with the number of exclusively female protagonist. Point out that only 1 in 4 protagonists with a set gender are female.
Don't use bullshit statistics to effectively say that Mass Effect and Dishonoured 2 are games that reduce female representation. Don't act like if you got rid of games with player choice, so only 1 in 4 games had the possibility of playing female protagonists, that would be an advance in representation.
Ok but you're still wrong and its still meaningless in regards to representation. Majority of games are still written through the male perspective, even those multiple choice games
OP
OP
I find the idea that offering a choice makes it fully meaningless in terms of representation quite weird. I mean, such a game can still feature an empowering, well-done female character and give people not from that demographic a chance to play as a character from a marginalized demographic, no?
Does representation only gain any significance because it can force people not from that demographic into playing as a character from that demographic?
(That's not to say exclusively female leads aren't different and possibly stronger representation, I understand that part. What I don't get is the notion that offering another choice means it now holds no meaning whatsoever.)
OP
OP
Not much, but better than you might expect, as apparently that figure includes games where you control a party.
Then again, if you're saying it's not meaningless inherently, but ends up so in the context of the games industry at large and its contemporary output, I see that point better and I have nothing to add to or say about that.
Yeah that's fair enough, put like that I get it and agree. I am playing Horizon: Zero Dawn currently and that just would not be the same with a pallet swapped male model, it is written as a female perspective and is refreshing because of it.
That's an interesting way to choose to interpret the data. You could say the same exact thing for male protagonists that this year is the lowest it has been in 5 years, with the highest being 41% in 2016 to being the lowest in 2019 with 21%. I don't think it's a coincidence that the multiple options category has gone from 46% to 66%.
Perhaps you should consider if the way the game was marketed affected that. I actually looked this up yesterday out of curiosity due to this thread.
Maybe it is purely coincidental and there's a difference between the demographic of playtesters and the demographic of the entire audience that caused the disparity but Alexios being the one used in all marketing material and the box art could definitely have influenced players. It would be interesting if we could somehow find out how this might have differed if Kassandra was the prominent character in marketing.
One of the main issues with the male as default is that people see them on the cover and in the ads and assume that's the main character and this reinforces the perception of some that the female option is just kinda there if you want.
Yeah I'd be tempted to agree. I haven't examined the data as extensively but just from a casual observation the outlook is fairly grim unfortunately. There's a fair chance at this point that- bar Kazooie- all the DLC characters in Smash will be male with 3/5 confirmed and 2/2 (again technically) revealed at E3 being male. Heck, even EA who do usually get it really disappointed with the protagonist of Fallen Order. Like we seem to make great strides with Battlefield V for example but then... yeah.