My mistake then, I admittedly am a bit heated reading some of the comments in here. I mistook your comment as being one of those "we need to treat them with respect" types of comments. I definitely agree with your clarified point. My apologies!
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'Feminists' Who Exclude Trans Women Aren't Feminists At All
- Thread starter FeistyBoots
- Start date
Thanks. It's hard to grok some of this stuff sometimes, but it's at least nice that they're a minority, hopefully a shrinking one at that. Most of the feminists I read/follow aren't TERFs so I worried I was in a bubble and it was a much larger group.
Sadly, it seems to be asking too much of people to actually read the article these days.
That surprises me. My (anedoctal) experience is that the number of women who have problems with accepting trans-women as sharing their same issues and struggles, if not downright accepting them as women, is significant. In fact the most egregious examples of transphobia I've met where displayed by women.
I can't say if they're shrinking, they're definitely getting more attention due to them being 'useful idiots' to the alt-right. A lot of them practice the same concern trolling about trans women in women's bathrooms and locker rooms or whatever.
The women around you suck. I have had almost the opposite experience in my groups.
I knew someone feminist who told me she hated trans women because they're "contradicting" what she's fighting for.
I didn't give it much thought then but now I realize that the feminists who are against female normality clash with trans women who embrace it.
I didn't give it much thought then but now I realize that the feminists who are against female normality clash with trans women who embrace it.
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This disgusts me. You need to earn stripes to be a woman. If you're a woman, you're a woman. Even if you've been a woman your whole life, 20 years, 5 years, 2 months...
Penis.
And I get it, I get why they'd go with PERF, or even maybe radical feminists, who would identify their sexual preferences as "not a penis" and that's totally fine, it's non-binary identity methods.
But I don't think I've seen a single person who ever called themselves a PERF take a reasonable stance, they're all TERFs trying to hide under a "nicer" name.
Let's not make this into a war of whose existence has it worse then others.
There was a pretty insightful thread on TERFs (and SWERFs) on Sinfest's forums not long ago (because readers got weary when the comic started going too far), might fall under cross-forum drama if I posted it here however.
Lately the author showed his ass by creating an entire separate forum, fittingly in piss yellow, as an echo chamber for rad-SWERF/TERFs ("people who like the message of my comic"), and gaslighting a poster who was misgendered and pretty viciously assaulted by another transphobic poster.
And the irony of his condescending way of mansplaining feminism is totally lost on him.
Lately the author showed his ass by creating an entire separate forum, fittingly in piss yellow, as an echo chamber for rad-SWERF/TERFs ("people who like the message of my comic"), and gaslighting a poster who was misgendered and pretty viciously assaulted by another transphobic poster.
And the irony of his condescending way of mansplaining feminism is totally lost on him.
What do they mean by this? What was their argument?
That homosexual girls, instead of just liking women, are told that they're really men and need to transition?
If anything, I would think that PERF makes even less sense since these are the types of people who wouldn't really change their stance on trans women regardless of whether or not they've had GRS.
They are pretty small, but some groups are getting kinda strong in the UK for some reason ... where even The Guardian run some pretty transphobic shit
The problem is that most burocracy that you need to pass to change your documents are rooted in pretty 50s level sexism. Like if a judge don't think you are womanly enought he might not allow you to change your birth certificate. I heard stories of a woman who was denied because she went wearing jeans pants. PANTS !!!!
And of course media only focus on the stories of gender conforming trans people because of course.
So they only focus on those and go OMFG TRANS WOMEN REINFORCES THE GENDER NORMS while ignoring EVERY CIS WOMEN WHO ALSO IGNORES. See backlash of that trans woman that went to the miss universe competition. She is the ONLY one reinforcing the gender norms. ONLY. The other 30 cis women competing? nope. Only her.
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It is not penis. They are against the identity of trans people. They """"""accept""""" trans men in their groups, even if they had phaloplasty. They sell huge dildos in their meetings. They have nothing against the phalic figure. They have it against the identity of trans people.
That a lesbian dating a trans woman is not a lesbian. Their actual reasoning is ...worst
But let them speak for themselves:
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They're a minority among feminist women, not all women. A lot of women are conservatives, especially if they're white.
Agreed with everyone above.
TERFs aren't potential allies. They're bigots.
The existente of those "extremistas feminista" is why I distances myself from the movement
"Men can't be feminists"
"Men shouldn't go to feminismo marcha"
"Trans people are sexista because they identify being female with girly things"
And other stupid shit that only divides the movement.
And those are usually the ones directing the protests.
"Men can't be feminists"
"Men shouldn't go to feminismo marcha"
"Trans people are sexista because they identify being female with girly things"
And other stupid shit that only divides the movement.
And those are usually the ones directing the protests.
This differs from a "No True Scottsman" because "feminism", unlike a "Scottsman" centers on a specific ideology, which is gender equality, and thus inherently inclusive regardless of who we're talking about.
I do think it's okay to acknowledge that being a transwoman and being a cis woman are not the same thing and that they don't have the same life experiences -- the key is just to reinforce that they are still 100% women, still share a common charge on the core issues to feminism, and are still equal under the eyes of feminism by virtue of all genders being equal under the eyes of feminism. Saying someone is a "different sort of woman" is ok, but saying someone is "not a real woman" is not.
I do think it's okay to acknowledge that being a transwoman and being a cis woman are not the same thing and that they don't have the same life experiences -- the key is just to reinforce that they are still 100% women, still share a common charge on the core issues to feminism, and are still equal under the eyes of feminism by virtue of all genders being equal under the eyes of feminism. Saying someone is a "different sort of woman" is ok, but saying someone is "not a real woman" is not.
it's existed since the stone wall riots when they made their hate clear for sylvia rivera.
Yikes. I guess I shouldn't be surprised because I posted in the Transgender 101 thread about how I've encountered a lot of lesbian and gay people who just don't like transgender people being in the "LGBT" umbrella.
Since you brought up lesbians (and maybe this is a better question for the Transgender 101 thread), do you or does anyone have any data or studies homosexuality in the trans community compared to that of the cis community? I think last time I poked around to try and find stuff, it was mostly communities doing internal surveys and nothing really formal.
Both bisexuality and homosexuality are bigger than average because
1) you are already visible lgbt so fuck it
2) most trans people grew up with the "society pressure" to be gay so it is not like coming out as gay would be exactly harder than coming out as trans.
But it is probably more "bigger than average" in a sense "if LGBT people were more accepted it would be more in the levels of trans people" not that being trans has anything to do with it.
Here you go :
This is just a survey of the US only, and only of people who were only 18 or older in 2016, but its really the best we have right now as far as I know.
Terfs don't believe trans women should be in lesbian dating spaces.
Just because someone is a feminist doesn't mean it's impossible for them to be transphobic (or racist or sexist for that matter). That's why the "trans-exclusionary radical" modifier exists.
I can see the merits of saying, "well, if you aren't going to be consistent in your feminism, you aren't a real feminist." But I can also see the merits of calling out the contradictions for what they are with modifiers like TERF--"you say you're a feminist, but you're a pretty bad feminist."
I can see the merits of saying, "well, if you aren't going to be consistent in your feminism, you aren't a real feminist." But I can also see the merits of calling out the contradictions for what they are with modifiers like TERF--"you say you're a feminist, but you're a pretty bad feminist."
Yea wow, I never guessed this is what they meant
and
"The trans movement is a conservative movement"
Lmao ok, good luck with that one
That makes sense and I kind of assumed as much. But thanks for your insight! (I also hope the question didn't come across as abrasive in a "trans causes homosexuality" type of way).
Here you go :
This is just a survey of the US only, and only of people who were only 18 or older in 2016, but its really the best we have right now as far as I know.
Wow, thank you! I feel like I've searched for something like that for a while and could never find it. Could you link me the whole study? I'd love to read it.
I've had the same experience. I've seen plenty of men and women refer to trans women as 'not real women' but the ones who seemed to get the most headed/angry about it have generally been women; the idea that what they're doing is co-opting or something along those lines. Seems silly but I'm not a woman, so hard to comment. In terms of lesbians which I've seen some comments on in here, I mean, it's easy to understand homosexual cis females not wanting to deal with penises. I don't really understand the complaint there as long as they're not escalating to outright bigotry.
Glad to see TERFs being universally lambasted. There is nothing egalitarian about their 'feminism'.
I would be very curious to find out what constitutes as "straight" for someone who's enby.Here you go :
This is just a survey of the US only, and only of people who were only 18 or older in 2016, but its really the best we have right now as far as I know.
On the transphobia from the gay community there are gay men that do the same as TERF's. I was listening to the Two outs podcast (local Boston sports with Steve Buckley an openly gay sports columnist and Alex Reimer an openly gay sports talk personality) and they had a guy on as a guest who somehow was trying to argue that logic, that trans is a conspiracy against gay men to erase them. Good on buck and Alex for shutting that shit down however one reason especially as someone who has not and may not transition why I don't tell people at all and avoid society is the amount I have been told its not real and I am trying to justify to myself and am really a closeted gay guy. Which beyond being shit is too funny because A. Accepted medical science definitely backs transgender, even when it was considered a disorder and treatment consisted of trying to "cure mental issues" it was still recognized as real. B. Funny enough and one of the things that makes non transitioning bearable ( though even this has issues and a can of worms I am not opening now.) is the fact I still am attracted to women by preference on a sexual level.
Fuck TERFS.
It is a shame they are called feminists because they aren't. True feminists stand for equality for all no matter wether they have a vagina or penis.
It is a shame they are called feminists because they aren't. True feminists stand for equality for all no matter wether they have a vagina or penis.
It kinda works when you take into account their other beliefs like all PIV (penis in vagina) sex is rape and all women should be lesbians. TERFs actually are the embodiment of the crazy, man hating feminist stereotype that anti-progressives always cry about. This is why I always laughed at GG'ers calling Anita Sarkesian a radical feminist because it's beyond dumb.
Sure, its from this source that I used in the 101 thread. Its massive, so you might need to search through it to find what you want : https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf
I'd agree with that, though in the case of the ones at London they were accusing trans-women of being rapists and forcing or tricking people to have sex with them. That's not an okay accusation to make and blatantly untrue. And ofcourse everything else they were saying is awful as well.
Fucked isn't it. But remember that being LGBT crosses a lot of racial, ethnic and socio-economic backgrounds. Not everyone of them would put as much thought into it as others would. Plenty of openly gay Trump/alt-right supporters if you give a half-assed google search for it.
I can see some feminist groups focusing on broader female issues than say specific trans female issues.. but exclusion?? Why??
TERFs? Wtf. The fact that such a label exists is mind blowing.
TERFs? Wtf. The fact that such a label exists is mind blowing.
Am I crazy or does the article not go into any detail about anti-transgender policy positions but instead on how TERFs are funded and supported by the religious right to subvert more traditional feminist values.
Is it cynical to say that this article is shitting on TERFs not because trans-people are people too but rather out of a sense of 'they're coming for you next!'?
I mean, these are the issues laid out in the article
None of them are specifically trans related.
Is it cynical to say that this article is shitting on TERFs not because trans-people are people too but rather out of a sense of 'they're coming for you next!'?
I mean, these are the issues laid out in the article
said that rape isn't that bad, describing it as "something that leaves no sign, no injury, nothing." In the same interview, she said the penalty for rape should be reduced to "200 hours of community service." Greer pooh-poohed the Me Too movement, saying, "If you spread your legs because he said 'Be nice to me and I'll give you a job in a movie,' then I'm afraid that's tantamount to consent, and it's too late now to start whingeing about that."
Venice Allan, aka @DrRadFem on Twitter, has railed against abortion and birth control being available to women
That group received a $15,000 grant from the Alliance Defending Freedom ― an anti-LGBTQ, anti-abortion, anti-birth control legal organization that supports the recriminalization of homosexuality in the U.S.
They are all anti-choice. They all want to ban access to birth control. They universally want to overturn Lawrence v. Texas and allow states to make homosexuality illegal again. They want to overturn Obergefell v. Hodges, and Roe v. Wade. They want to ban same-sex adoption. They all are hostile to fair-pay-for-women laws. They oppose women working outside the home. They are all hostile to the Women's March and Me Too. They are fake medical organizations and anti-LGBTQ and anti-choice hate groups. They have cheered the assassinations of abortion providers. They are publications that have published horrible things about women, such as "Does Feminism Make Women Ugly?"
Venice Allan, aka @DrRadFem on Twitter, has railed against abortion and birth control being available to women
That group received a $15,000 grant from the Alliance Defending Freedom ― an anti-LGBTQ, anti-abortion, anti-birth control legal organization that supports the recriminalization of homosexuality in the U.S.
They are all anti-choice. They all want to ban access to birth control. They universally want to overturn Lawrence v. Texas and allow states to make homosexuality illegal again. They want to overturn Obergefell v. Hodges, and Roe v. Wade. They want to ban same-sex adoption. They all are hostile to fair-pay-for-women laws. They oppose women working outside the home. They are all hostile to the Women's March and Me Too. They are fake medical organizations and anti-LGBTQ and anti-choice hate groups. They have cheered the assassinations of abortion providers. They are publications that have published horrible things about women, such as "Does Feminism Make Women Ugly?"
No because while bigoted that at least has logical consistency. Basically it's alleged lesbians who think that trans woman are part of an elaborate scheme by the patriarchy to get them to have a penis in them. Which makes absolutely no fucking sense, because a cis man is going to have a much easier time finding straight women than a trans woman would finding lesbians or queer women. These women are so fucking paranoid about dick that I've seen some of them brag about their gold-star status and insist they'd never have sex with a woman who'd been within 5 feet of an erect penis. (Gold-star is a lesbian who's never had any sexual contact with a penis ever (whether it be with a cis man or a trans women. of course, they're transphobic pieces of shit so trans men are ok.) As you can imagine, this obsession with vaginal purity lends itself to them acting like idiotic incels who slut shame the fuck out of bi women, or even lesbians who've been in monogamous marriages with men.
They were always very aggressive in queer lady subs about not wanting to date/fuck a trans woman because penis. In reality trans women want nothing to do with them lol.
Nope. "Feminists, except for those kinds of women and those kinds of women" is supremacy thinking, exactly what feminists are trying to dismantle.