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Ashes of Dreams

Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
14,541
It's easy to miss that they are Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo. Most people aren't going to make the connection based on just their fighting style and most people aren't going to remember the name of Yazoo's gun. Though if you're playing as Tifa, the one based on Loz gets a new teleport move based on their fight in Advent Children. I know this because my friend only wanted to play as Tifa and couldn't beat the boss because of that move.
 

Juraash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,383
It stood out a lot more doing that fight on Sunday and watching AC 2 days later, but yeah, never ever made the connection prior. For as much as I've seen AC, it really should have jumped out to me sooner.
 

brain_

What is a tag? A miserable pile of words.
Member
May 13, 2021
2,462
MO
Okay. So now I think the game in general as well as the other worlds are taking place in the lifestream or that everything is basically made up of the planet's memory data that is maintained by the whispers. Just based off of some dialogue from Remake and Rebirth. In Remake right before you leave Midgar and the whispers fly in to form the barrier you break through, you hear screaming. Sephiroth in his nonsensical blathering calls this "destiny" Aerith later clarifies "What you heard just now were the voices of the planet. Those born into this world. Who lived and who died. Who returned. They're howling in pain. All these moments and memories, precious and fleeting...they're like rain rolling off his back..."

Then we jump to Sephiroth and Cloud in Rebirth during his "multiverse crash course:"
"The planet encompasses a multitude of worlds, ever unfolding. Some quickly perish...while others endure. Yet even the most resilient worlds are doomed to fade. Nevertheless, their loss is not to be mourned. For it is not death, but a homecoming that awaits them. And in the planet's embrace, all life is as one."

Goes into a portal of merged worlds or memories:
Sephiroth: "Listen to the planet, Cloud. To her ecstatic cries - her rapture."
Cloud: "Screaming-It's screaming!"

It seems that their reality is just a stitch cloth of moments that can manifest "worlds." It looks like the original Zack and Biggs were placed in an a different world with different memory data based on new outcomes and that worlds are separated based on these possibilities. Its hard to say what nature of the worlds are problematic; the merging or constant splitting off of them.

During the merging of "worlds" when Sephiroth seemingly kills Aerith.

Sephiroth: "And so it beings. A confluence of worlds and emotions. It engulfs fleeting moments of joy, transforming them into rage, sadness, hatred."

I wonder if he did a memory swap here to the literal OG scene and that's why its so confusing here. And why they'd show the "My mouth is dry, my eyes are burning." scene despite that probably not used in the Rebrith if they decided to play the death scene straight.

Cloud seeing the crack in the sky might be some kind of matrix effect, he sees the world for what it really is, a moment in the cycle of the lifestream's memories. Another story, another possiblity.
This is very interesting, and I think you're on to something with how reality works here. The question that keeps popping into my head is, what actually is the planet? All these moments and worlds are in the lifestream, which is in the planet, so if the events aren't happening on the planet, what is? Is the planet even a physical place?
I'm sure this is all answered too if I were to actually deep dive into Nojima's influences that he talked about for how the different worlds work, since reality works way different vs most stories just jumping verses and timelines. Regardless I think it's an interesting question with this reality being so different from most multiverse stories.
No worries, I was just confused since I didn't see the name connection. But since I clearly missed old news, especially since I didn't really participate in the prior spoiler thread, I figured maybe I was missing something else.

In any case, I didn't mean to divert the thread too far off topic with my random musings.
Ain't no diversion , bring ALL of the FF7 in here
 

Koklusz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,593
Sure, but they aren't named after kadaj and the boys, they're named after colors, unless their names are different in japanese.
I still don't understand the meaning of this though. Like, if they were fighting for Arbiter of Fate, does it mean Sephiroth was the Arbiter? I guess we will never know, considering they completely skipped that part in the "previously in Final Fantasy 7" intro.
 

PancakeFlip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,925
I still don't understand the meaning of this though. Like, if they were fighting for Arbiter of Fate, does it mean Sephiroth was the Arbiter? I guess we will never know, considering they completely skipped that part in the "previously in Final Fantasy 7" intro.
The arbiter protects the flow of time consistency of the memories in their world, which I believe their world is made up of ("memories" or the omniscient data of the planet). They manifested as elements of the future in the form of those 3 antagonists because they come from the future.
 

Koklusz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,593
The arbiter protects the flow of time consistency of the memories in their world, which I believe their world is made up of ("memories" or the omniscient data of the planet). They manifested as elements of future in the form of those 3 antagonists because they come from the future.
Yeah, but why those three assholes in particular? Because they fought the party in the future? But they kinda dropped the ball there, so couldn't Arbiter bring someone, you know, more competent?

It's just fan service for fan service sake innit?
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,381
That whole segment with KH-tier giant purple monster from Remake will never be good or explained in a satisfying manner. It is so far the worst element of Remake/Rebirth.
 

Koklusz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,593
That whole segment with KH-tier giant purple monster from Remake will never be good or explained in a satisfying manner.
This is where I'm at with multiverse stuff.

I won't be surprised if they just straight up ignore most of the Rebirth ending it in the next game, going by Nomura comments I feel like it's already begun.
 

PancakeFlip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,925
Yeah, but why those three assholes in particular? Because they fought the party in the future? But they kinda dropped the ball there, so couldn't Arbiter bring someone, you know, more competent?

It's just fan service for fan service sake innit?
Yes, most likely. They've made it pretty clear via interviews that they add certain things in just for fan service.

Though I don't think it's literally THEM. Its just the whispers forming likenesses of them, they could probably turn into copies of Cloud, Tifa and Barret if they wanted.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,381
This is where I'm at with multiverse stuff.

I won't be surprised if they just straight up ignore most of the Rebirth ending it in the next game, going by Nomura comments I feel like it's already begun.
I feel you could easily just blank stare all the meta scenes stuff. So far the core story is not that far off from OG.
 

Rahkeesh

Member
Jun 20, 2022
4,060
Yeah, but why those three assholes in particular? Because they fought the party in the future? But they kinda dropped the ball there, so couldn't Arbiter bring someone, you know, more competent?

It's just fan service for fan service sake innit?

I don't know if this is key, but, the three remnants don't exist unless Sephiroth is defeated in the same way he is in the O.G. Severely damaged, but not completely dissolved. So that Sephiroth's consciousness carries on, but he has to sacrifice the memory of his own appearance to do so, and ends up making those three instead. If Sephiroth were somehow victorious, or conversely if Sephiroth gets defeated harder this time and completely erased, these guys never come into existence.

Speaking of, I did catch in the Nibelheim flashback just as Sephiroth breaks in "Cloud's" presence, it seems like you can hear some sobbing in Japanese that they didn't reproduce in English. The sobbing gradually turns to laughter. It feels like a specific callback to Loz who had that crying habit about being separated from "mother."
 
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Lemony1984

Member
Jul 7, 2020
6,733
Yeah, but why those three assholes in particular? Because they fought the party in the future? But they kinda dropped the ball there, so couldn't Arbiter bring someone, you know, more competent?

It's just fan service for fan service sake innit?
I don't know if this is backed up in the text, but I always thought if the trio in AC as like different aspects of Sephiroth.

So like the versions you fight at the end of Renake could just be a sort of earlier manifestation of those aspects before they fully form in AC.

I don't think it's meant to be the boys from the future.
 

Alec

Hero of Bowerstone
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,732
Louisville, KY
I don't know if this is backed up in the text, but I always thought if the trio in AC as like different aspects of Sephiroth.

So like the versions you fight at the end of Renake could just be a sort of earlier manifestation of those aspects before they fully form in AC.

I don't think it's meant to be the boys from the future.
Their Assess description says they are here to ensure that the future they came from continues to exist or something close. Let me find the text.

Croceo's:
An entity from a future timeline that has manifested in the present day. It fights with guns to protect the future that gave shape to it.
 

Leeness

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,896
Speaking of, I did catch in the Nibelheim flashback just as Sephiroth breaks in "Cloud's" presence, it seems like you can hear some sobbing in Japanese that they didn't reproduce in English. The sobbing gradually turns to laughter. It feels like a specific callback to Loz who had that crying habit about being separated from "mother."

Not to come back in here without finishing the game again lol (AAAHHH), but when I played the Nibelheim flashback during the demo, I actually said out loud "are you (Sephiroth) crying?".

I think they definitely did, it's just maybe not as pronounced? That close up shot on his face, he's definitely sobbing a bit before he smiles and it turns into laughter.

I'm a Sephiroth fangirl, I notice these stupid things lol.

Anyway, OUTTA HERE again until I finish, hopefully this weekend 🙏
 

Lemony1984

Member
Jul 7, 2020
6,733
Their Assess description says they are here to ensure that the future they came from continues to exist or something close. Let me find the text.

Croceo's:
An entity from a future timeline that has manifested in the present day. It fights with guns to protect the future that gave shape to it.
Good shout! I had forgotten that. Thanks for the correction
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,166
Not to come back in here without finishing the game again lol (AAAHHH), but when I played the Nibelheim flashback during the demo, I actually said out loud "are you (Sephiroth) crying?".

I think they definitely did, it's just maybe not as pronounced? That close up shot on his face, he's definitely sobbing a bit before he smiles and it turns into laughter.

I'm a Sephiroth fangirl, I notice these stupid things lol.

Anyway, OUTTA HERE again until I finish, hopefully this weekend 🙏
finish the game!
 

Scherzo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,057
It's technically in the game, they just redesigned it to be boring.

I have no idea how they got this so wrong when they got Hell House so right in the first game.

How they redesigned Hell Rider, while neat in a way, Is a bit of a letdown. I honestly sort of expected Roche to turn into one when his body started to degrade.
 

Yabberwocky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,264
Speaking of, I did catch in the Nibelheim flashback just as Sephiroth breaks in "Cloud's" presence, it seems like you can hear some sobbing in Japanese that they didn't reproduce in English. The sobbing gradually turns to laughter. It feels like a specific callback to Loz who had that crying habit about being separated from "mother."

Not to come back in here without finishing the game again lol (AAAHHH), but when I played the Nibelheim flashback during the demo, I actually said out loud "are you (Sephiroth) crying?".

I think they definitely did, it's just maybe not as pronounced? That close up shot on his face, he's definitely sobbing a bit before he smiles and it turns into laughter.

I'm a Sephiroth fangirl, I notice these stupid things lol.

Anyway, OUTTA HERE again until I finish, hopefully this weekend 🙏

Yes, it was a really cool moment! I thought they captured it well in the English dub, too -- it sits in a unnerving spot that is halfway between laughing and crying. I had the same reaction as Leeness, "...is Sephiroth crying?!" I'm looking forward to doing a playthrough with the Japanese voice cast someday to see what Morikawa does with it, he's always great.
 

Rahkeesh

Member
Jun 20, 2022
4,060
Iracerous or Malcerous. Its just a triceratops now.

The other notable one that's missing is Ghirofelgo, the half-pendulum guy from Shinra manor. Although Nibelheim manor was botched in general anyway. My cope is that the top floor is blocked off for some Vincent related backstory yet to be divulged there, maybe we can see him then.
 

tjlee2

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,757
Had some time to think about my first playthrough. Will just list off a few things.

I think the way the game tried to move the party from point to point felt really awkward throughout. Using robed individuals didn't work too well for me and I constantly had to tell myself to not think too much about each instance which is not a big deal in isolated instances but when it's constant it's more problematic. When they were left behind between ch.9-10 I thought things worked notably better even if the party was just tackling things as they came along. I think this had a pretty notable impact on my investment in the plot.

I think the game is consistently excessive with its story beats. I think it worked really well for parts of the game that's just having fun. Upper Junon, Shinra 8, Costa Del Sol, Gold Saucer, side quests, etc all were great and benefited from all the extra flair. I think it was a lot more mixed when that same excess was extended to the more serious story beats. The first instance where it felt like it was a net negative for me was Dyne (I think Dyne/Barret stuff was mostly fine, but presence of Shinra in its entirity was a clear negative for me), and it was very hit and miss for me from that point on all the way to the end.

On the other hand, I think they did an amazing job with the characters again. While I thought the plot was not on point at times, I think the interactions between the characters of the main party were consistently great. While I thought they fumbled a lot of the little details with scenes driving the plot, I thought they nailed vast majority of the details in regards to character interactions and continue to add great depth to them. I mostly wasn't invested in the plot by the end, but I was still very much invested in the characters, and that's probably enough that the game nails just one of either the plot or the characters for the story to have enough pull.

I felt that the Zach parts of the story was ultimately irrelevant due to how it was used in the end. During the game I thought where Zach's segments happened was pretty well placed and while it moved fairly slowly I thought it worked well in contrast to what the main party is doing at the time. After reaching the end I feel like if Zach's segments were removed entirely I don't think it would impact the plot or the characters in the main party much, if at all. If they have plans for him for part 3 then that's fine but I think he didn't need to be in part 2 in hindsight. Similarly, I thought all the different timeline or multiverse stuff were largely not meaningful. I think the same story beats could have been accomplished even if that stuff was absent.

I am fairly content with how the game ended, but I am quite a bit more negative with how the final part of the game played out. It's again an issue of excess that made the story beats at the moment lack the focus that helps reinforce an emotional attachment for me. I think they tried to do too much for the final battle and couldn't focus on an emotion that they want to convey for any single moment, and that moment was changing extremely rapidly due to how much back and forth was happening. After the dust settles and all the fights were over I think the last couple of scene to the credits handled things a lot better. I think they did a great job with conveying the situation with Cloud at the end and gave the scenes proper amount of room to breath so the emotional impact can come through. I also think they did a good job with what scenes to include and what to omit to drive some degree of suspense. I think it would be beneficial if the more serious plot points have a moment to reflect on itself, and that's all I think I need which can easily be accomplished if the bombast is dialed back a bit.

Overall I enjoyed the story dispite a notable number of issues that I have with the plot. I'm very much still attached to the characters and want to see things to the end with them. Also, I very much enjoyed reading/scanning (most of) this thread from beginning to end. A lot of little deatils I missed or weren't aware of were filled in which helped a lot in processing my own experience.
 

Z'ard

Member
Mar 5, 2019
1,047
Ukraine
Am i missing something obvious or both Tifa and Red are not there?

J8VCvRf.jpg

J8VCQHb.jpg
 

Eien1no1Yami

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,298
yeah it's the rhino-looking enemy that you fight in the gongaga area in the abandoned base. It uses an healing ability that requires that you use two ATB attacks on it to disrupt it. Its name in Japanese is the same name that tankceratops has in the Japanese version of the OG game.

wow that truly blows. literally unrecognizable
We might still get a chance to fight it in Part3.
I didn't remember this personally but I've read that this enemy also appears in disc 2 around the gold saucer area, so it's nto exclusive to Gongaga.
Also the fact they still haven't brought this up in the Ultimania compared to other stuff like the Shinra Manor changes for example gives me hope it's intentional
but we'll see.
 

Kuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,751
Did they get rid of the special contextual dodge from the Weiss fight? I don't recall coming across it at all in Rebirth.
 

Z'ard

Member
Mar 5, 2019
1,047
Ukraine
I don't see it either..

But logically I can't pin it on anything but an error? Unless someone has an idea why Barret and Cait are there
Well there are like 40 seconds between those shots so it's possible they just came form somewhere out of screen to sit there. But right before that Sid says "they are clear for takeoff". So they went to sit there and cry for like 10 seconds and then went to the plane? Instead of going straight to the plane?

There is also this thing with Aerith that doesn't react to the engine in one scene and then reacts in the very end?

So yeah either they did a very poor job here to the point they decided not to show this scene in the credits except very last shot lol or they are showing different timelines in one cinematic maybe?
 

dglavimans

Member
Nov 13, 2019
7,709
Well there are like 40 seconds between those shots so it's possible they just came form somewhere out of screen to sit there. But right before that Sid says "they are clear for takeoff". So they went to sit there and cry for like 10 seconds and then went to the plane? Instead of going straight to the plane?

There is also this thing with Aerith that doesn't react to the engine in one scene and then reacts in the very end?

So yeah either they did a very poor job here to the point they decided not to show this scene in the credits except very last shot lol or they are showing different timelines in one cinematic maybe?
I'm all for the theory ngl, even if it only means devs didn't slip up here!

But then I do need to know a why Barret and Cait there and not Tifa and Red.. That honestly to me is the bigger take in those two images together with any theory :s

And I can't really tell why..

Only brainspin is that in the very very beginning of FF7 Rebirth (with Zack) we see the plane crash and Red lies there. Tifa was also being brought away. But that would imply they both died? And Barret was stretchered out there too lol
 
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Eien1no1Yami

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,298
What are you considering the triceratops tank?

I expect to see it in Part 3 on the return trip to Gongaga.
It's this enemy
maloceros-f80d84b0.jpg


In the japanese verision it's called ヘビータンク(Heavy tank) which was the actual name of the enemy in OG.

As you can see from the description of the enemy it pretty implies it's pretty much implies it's the same enemy.
Having said that, it doesn't mean it can't be in part3.
You can still fight him in the OG in disc2 in the gold saucer arena, so if they really want to the can make it like Hojo experimened on the enemy
and put tank wheels on them.
 

RROCKMAN

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,839
It's this enemy
maloceros-f80d84b0.jpg


In the japanese verision it's called ヘビータンク(Heavy tank) which was the actual name of the enemy in OG.

As you can see from the description of the enemy it pretty implies it's pretty much implies it's the same enemy.
Having said that, it doesn't mean it can't be in part3.
You can still fight him in the OG in disc2 in the gold saucer arena, so if they really want to the can make it like Hojo experimened on the enemy
and put tank wheels on them.

Localization for this game is now actually starting to piss me off, can we keep the weird ass names please?
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,179
It's this enemy
maloceros-f80d84b0.jpg


In the japanese verision it's called ヘビータンク(Heavy tank) which was the actual name of the enemy in OG.

As you can see from the description of the enemy it pretty implies it's pretty much implies it's the same enemy.
Having said that, it doesn't mean it can't be in part3.
You can still fight him in the OG in disc2 in the gold saucer arena, so if they really want to the can make it like Hojo experimened on the enemy
and put tank wheels on them.
Ah, I see. And yeah, I like your idea for how a Hojo-modified one could appear in Part 3.
 

PancakeFlip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,925
Iracerous or Malcerous. Its just a triceratops now.

The other notable one that's missing is Ghirofelgo, the half-pendulum guy from Shinra manor. Although Nibelheim manor was botched in general anyway. My cope is that the top floor is blocked off for some Vincent related backstory yet to be divulged there, maybe we can see him then.
Jemnezmy was also cut from the temple. In fact I think she was the only old enemy cut from the temple.
 

Eien1no1Yami

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,298
Localization for this game is now actually starting to piss me off, can we keep the weird ass names please?
Again for this case, they might want to use Heavy Tank or Tankceratops for the part3 enemy if it appears so it was intentional from the localization team.
Unless this gets cleared up by a later interview or in the Ultimania(which so far it appears it doesn't) we can only speculate.

For me the most logical answer is they coulnd't figure out a way to make the enemy work in Gongaga like they did with Hell House so they're buing themselves some time to figure it out.
They might not ultimately but it's up to them honestly, nothing is written off yet.
 

PancakeFlip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,925
It's this enemy
maloceros-f80d84b0.jpg


In the japanese verision it's called ヘビータンク(Heavy tank) which was the actual name of the enemy in OG.

As you can see from the description of the enemy it pretty implies it's pretty much implies it's the same enemy.
Having said that, it doesn't mean it can't be in part3.
You can still fight him in the OG in disc2 in the gold saucer arena, so if they really want to the can make it like Hojo experimened on the enemy
and put tank wheels on them.
Why did they do this?
 

bunkitz

Brave Little Spark
Moderator
Oct 28, 2017
13,531
Also the fact they still haven't brought this up in the Ultimania compared to other stuff like the Shinra Manor changes for example gives me hope it's intentional
but we'll see.
What did they say about the Shinra Manor changes? I've only seen the staircase part mentioned. Curious why they changed it so much... Didn't think about it much when I was playing, but, yeah... That's at least the second horror-adjacent sequence set in a Shinra facility that I found weaker across both games. Shame.
 

Rahkeesh

Member
Jun 20, 2022
4,060
Am i missing something obvious or both Tifa and Red are not there?

J8VCvRf.jpg

J8VCQHb.jpg

Utterly mad idea: Tifa could've seen Aerith if only she looked up....

The CGI stuff is by an external studio, I'd give them higher chances of screwing up, or just arbitrarily changing the composition for better shots over realism or logic.
 

Eien1no1Yami

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,298

Eien1no1Yami

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,298
Should've just fixed the camera top-down in the center like the original. Have it slowly push down as the player tilts the thumbstick in a full circle.
Look I've seen this mentioned by a youtuber too and while I don't disagree that it makes sense do you really think none of the devs thought about that?
Probably they faced some issues when they tried it, so they had to find a different solution.
The "How hard could it be?" question when it comes to dev in general, not just in games has surprising answers you know.
 

RROCKMAN

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,839
Again for this case, they might want to use Heavy Tank or Tankceratops for the part3 enemy if it appears so it was intentional from the localization team.
Unless this gets cleared up by a later interview or in the Ultimania(which so far it appears it doesn't) we can only speculate.

For me the most logical answer is they coulnd't figure out a way to make the enemy work in Gongaga like they did with Hell House so they're buing themselves some time to figure it out.
They might not ultimately but it's up to them honestly, nothing is written off yet.

My complaint is twofold. On the localization side this is just another of those changes where it's like yeah I get it, fancy prose, but since it's a remake of a Game that was partly known for its weird shit I'd like that certain things stay weird.

The New Jenova Names also are annoying to me as well, I kinda accepted that the devs were probably just trying to make things more "normal" now, so imagine my surprise when Jenvova still kept the All caps BIRTH and LIFE names in the JP version.

On the actual dev team side I'd honestly rather them not try to make a realistic explanation for every weird ass enemy either. Like just drop it on us no explanation, no big set up please. He'll House was ok, but I don't want every weird enemy to be bombastic either.



I honestly would have preferred if they simply redesigned it entirely then. Hell, if they redesigned it to look like a certain Resident Evil Mansion I would have deeply appreciated the shout out. Since they were crafting whole new areas this probably would have been on my priorities to get right, but it would seem the team has differing views on the matter.

To be clear I'm not one of those Localizers should be AI guys, and I do get that game design is much more than simple problem solving, but I'd at least like to express my disappointment that certain ideas weren't prioritized during development in a semi mature manner.