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Eien1no1Yami

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,306
Grabbed the Cactuar statue yesterday, saved and now today when I loaded it up, I can't use it continue the quest, nothing happens when I press up on the d-pad.
Is this with Chapter Select or NG?
If it's the latter some people said that it got fixed from them once they used chapter select from chapter 12/13
 

Skel1ingt0n

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,779
credits rolling

Easiest 10/10 I've given since Bloodborne.

98+ of my 110 hour playtime were perfection. The remaining 12 hours were merely just "good."

A hell of an accomplishment.
 

brain_

What is a tag? A miserable pile of words.
Member
May 13, 2021
2,484
MO
It is so heart crushing spending 6 minutes on the first half of a combat challenge just to get demolished 20 seconds into the second half

Played the entire game on Dynamic and had a great time with some challenges that required some materia setup. This last Musclehead challenge is going on easy, I can't fight this Zue and Marboro anymore I'm gonna lose my mind. This is only like my 3rd complaint in 150 hours of game, but why would you make all of these six man bouts the same 4 enemies over and over lol
 
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Jisgsaw

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,376
So replaying FF7 OG, there's some minor things I definitively think they'll have to change.
Did you remember Scarlet put Tifa in a literal gas chamber in the OG? (because yes, apparently Shinra has those for... reasons?)
 

Rahkeesh

Member
Jun 20, 2022
4,069
Anyone seen any good video or article about Jungian/Yogachara influences on the story?

Love seeing so many people say "oh yeah I see it now" and they can't actually say anything about it.

Neither really say anything close to parallel worlds (yes Buddhism entertains many worlds, but not multiple copies of one person), so something creative has been done to apply them here. Its not as telling a comment as you might think.

The main obvious thing is that Jung sees the mind having direct intertwining with the world through synchronicity, and that Yogacara sees the world itself as fundamentally mental and determined by both karma and our perceptions. Jung also believed that cultural knowledge and traditions built up a history in the collective consciousness (something like the lifestream), and in early yogacara there was the alyana-vijnana (or storehouse-consciousness) where karmic seeds are created by our thoughts and actions, and eventually bear "fruit" by becoming the reality we experience. (Maybe the relationship between lifestream memories or dreams and the resulting worlds?)

The way Rebirth seems to link the state of the world directly to good or bad emotions is already a little detour from both though; strong emotions of both ups and downs cloud our perceptions and warp our world, truth is discovered only through serenity and clear-headedness, especially in Buddhism. Aerith's speech after the Cetra trials in Japanese is a little bit in this direction though, where she talks not about forgiveness per say, but "something soft/gentle and unbreakable", which is closer to Buddhist ideals of someone who is unshakable in accepting anything and responding with kindness. (This can include forgiveness, but contra Jesus' instructions to "forgive your enemies", it's more about cultivating a state of mind that does not hold a grudge in the first place.)
 

Koklusz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,599
Love seeing so many people say "oh yeah I see it now" and they can't actually say anything about it.

Neither really say anything close to parallel worlds (yes Buddhism entertains many worlds, but not multiple copies of one person), so something creative has been done to apply them here. Its not as telling a comment as you might think.

The main obvious thing is that Jung sees the mind having direct intertwining with the world through synchronicity, and that Yogacara sees the world itself as fundamentally mental and determined by both karma and our perceptions. Jung also believed that cultural knowledge and traditions built up a history in the collective consciousness (something like the lifestream), and in early yogacara there was the alyana-vijnana (or storehouse-consciousness) where karmic seeds are created by our thoughts and actions, and eventually bear "fruit" by becoming the reality we experience. (Maybe the relationship between lifestream memories or dreams and the resulting worlds?)

The way Rebirth seems to link the state of the world directly to good or bad emotions is already a little detour from both though; strong emotions of both ups and downs cloud our perceptions and warp our world, truth is discovered only through serenity and clear-headedness, especially in Buddhism. Aerith's speech after the Cetra trials in Japanese is a little bit in this direction though, where she talks not about forgiveness per say, but "something soft/gentle and unbreakable", which is closer to Buddhist ideals of someone who is unshakable in accepting anything and responding with kindness. (This can include forgiveness, but contra Jesus' instructions to "forgive your enemies", it's more about cultivating a state of mind that does not hold a grudge in the first place.)
Thanks for writing this down. I was vaguely familiar with the concept of the collective unconscious thanks to Remedyverse explanation videos (lol), so I guess if you use those games as a reference point, then the whole Lifestream multiverse can be similar to the Dark Place from Alan Wake (or the town of Silent Hill I guess): A dream dimension that than be inhabited and influenced by multiple people (or "dreamers" in this case) at the same time. It's not not real, but it's not a parallel reality in the typical sci-fi way. At least that's what my simple brain is taking away from this.

Thing is, the way creation of the new worlds is explained is essentially a Many Worlds Theory, and I'm not sure how freedom of choice fits into this. It feels like they're just mashing together various concepts how they see fit. Digging more into this just leads to more cans of worms. Kinda shame, since I'm finding the topic pretty interesting.
 
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Ear Mortal

Member
Mar 9, 2022
577
Thanks for writing this down. I was vaguely familiar with the concept of the collective unconscious thanks to Remedyverse explanation videos (lol), so I guess if you use those games as a reference point, then the whole Lifestream multiverse can be similar to the Dark Place from Alan Wake (or the town of Silent Hill I guess): A dream dimension that than be inhabited and influenced by multiple people (or "dreamers" in this case) at the same time. It's not not real, but it's not a parallel reality in the typical sci-fi way. At least that's what my simple brain is taking away from this.

Thing is, the way creation of the new worlds is explained is essentially a Many Worlds Theory, and I'm not sure how freedom of choice fits into this. It feels like they're just mashing together various concepts how they see fit. Digging more into this just leads to more cans of worms. Kinda shame, since I'm finding the topic pretty interesting.

Usually a creative person or an artist draws inspiration from various influences, thats pretty normal. The point is never to create something that is an exactly replica of what you're influenced by and instead to take elements and put your own spin on it, thus being creative. Take any musical genre that has come up through history, it's always been a "mashup" of previous genres to create something new, a new spin on what came before. Nojima referencing two different sources of inspiration shows that the story he's creating isn't conceptually exact to either one.

Besides that, I think we'll be seeing some more takes from people in the way these influences apply but for now here's one I came across recently. Not one person is going to have all of the answers to our question of course. Have to wait for Part 3 to have something that covers all of the bases.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csoaeg-kvwE&t=786s
 

pbayne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,424
Finished just shy of 100 hours. I dunno that first 60-70 hours were a magical experience, basically the greatest jrpg the ps1 never made, it turned all the abstractions of the original game up to 100 made them flesh and added even more on top of that. That last thirty or so though, i did get worn down by the open world i have to admit and it started to seep in, how little momentum the plot had other than than the vague "follow the robed guys to sephiroth" and yes i know the original is like that too. Some great scenes were added, i did really like the whole gogongo reactor section but also some real overblown ones, and yeah the last scene just had no emotional impact for me because it was so overblown and obnoxiously done.

Have to admit, whole game i was expecting a switcheroo. Like entire game Sephiroth is whispering into clouds ear "cant trust tifa, cant trust tifa, shes dead, cant trust tifa" like there was so much focus on that and none on aerith that it sort of felt like they were setting it up. Then Tifa even has a "Rebirth" scene inside the Weapon, and i thought for certain that was a set up to give her some kind of connection to the lifestream instead of Aerith but nope i was wrong lol.
 

MegaSackman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,767
Argentina
Watching this new podcast with Max, NSP, and co... I'm past the part where they discuss Knights of the round and they're a bit wild with it.

I'm tempering my expectations by just believing that you just summon Arthur like every other summon, and summon abilities might involve spawning another knight. The limit break will be just all of them showing up for the final attack.
 

dglavimans

Member
Nov 13, 2019
7,739

View: https://www.youtube.com/live/UPoxy4nu0yo?si=Hg7dC6LpfrFKEDTN

The round table discussion is live, been pretty entertaining so far

15 minutes in I really like how FF7 streamers seem to settle the ending is about Cloud his mental health

I'm repeating but it's prolly the reason why I like the ending so much. It's the only way they could have made it surprising and they put it on Cloud.

Time will be so kind to these games if they don't fumble the 3rd part. We are looking at 'the' remake imo
 

Rahkeesh

Member
Jun 20, 2022
4,069
Have to admit, whole game i was expecting a switcheroo. Like entire game Sephiroth is whispering into clouds ear "cant trust tifa, cant trust tifa, shes dead, cant trust tifa" like there was so much focus on that and none on aerith that it sort of felt like they were setting it up. Then Tifa even has a "Rebirth" scene inside the Weapon, and i thought for certain that was a set up to give her some kind of connection to the lifestream instead of Aerith but nope i was wrong lol.

I wonder if this is a side-effect of originally planning to end the game with Tifa falling into Weapon. They were building up to the moment where Cloud would attack her, even having the whispers present. They may have introduced additional mystery box stuff about Tifa's nature and fate to keep people talking.
 

Rahkeesh

Member
Jun 20, 2022
4,069
About the live flowers in the church Zack wakes up in, I recall a bunch of people saying that "he must be in Beagle, the only place with living flowers." I wonder what they say about this.

AKGpihZ3lfxHmCV-9W7xDsFFzDg_7VJRov5QIejrbi7D9o3MdhJIPpm894qy57hPjpkfwgGwnIKoKqqXSDwN-VYZ0DivlmistiJw6w=s1600-rw-v1

Yeah Zack COULD still be in Beagle, but, the flowers aren't particularly strong evidence. I don't think we've seen a church with dead flowers, even the maybe non-canonical Intergrade Zack scene has living flowers in it.
 

Koklusz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,599
Usually a creative person or an artist draws inspiration from various influences, thats pretty normal. The point is never to create something that is an exactly replica of what you're influenced by and instead to take elements and put your own spin on it, thus being creative. Take any musical genre that has come up through history, it's always been a "mashup" of previous genres to create something new, a new spin on what came before. Nojima referencing two different sources of inspiration shows that the story he's creating isn't conceptually exact to either one.
In order to mash up to work, various influences need to be woven together in a way that feels coherent and complementary, and the lack of coherency is has been my main frustration about the ending. I know that every time I post here I look like I'm looking for the excuses to bash the game, but I'm trying to find some thread to pull that will actually lead me somewhere, but so far has been nothing but dead ends. And the justification that I can't expect to have any resolution because it's a middle part of the trilogy doesn't fly, when someone made a self-contained and satisfying movie out of the first half of the first Dune book.
Thanks, looking forward to watching this later.
 

Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,293
About the live flowers in the church Zack wakes up in, I recall a bunch of people saying that "he must be in Beagle, the only place with living flowers." I wonder what they say about this.

AKGpihZ3lfxHmCV-9W7xDsFFzDg_7VJRov5QIejrbi7D9o3MdhJIPpm894qy57hPjpkfwgGwnIKoKqqXSDwN-VYZ0DivlmistiJw6w=s1600-rw-v1

Yeah Zack COULD still be in Beagle, but, the flowers aren't particularly strong evidence. I don't think we've seen a church with dead flowers, even the maybe non-canonical Intergrade Zack scene has living flowers in it.
Technically the stage where he fought Sephiroth solo was the church with dead flowers.

The foliage outside of her house in the date world is still alive though, so it makes sense the flowers there are still alive. The question is then whether they were alive in the terrier world.
 

brain_

What is a tag? A miserable pile of words.
Member
May 13, 2021
2,484
MO
15 minutes in I really like how FF7 streamers seem to settle the ending is about Cloud his mental health

I'm repeating but it's prolly the reason why I like the ending so much. It's the only way they could have made it surprising and they put it on Cloud.

Time will be so kind to these games if they don't fumble the 3rd part. We are looking at 'the' remake imo
Same here, I like how all roads tend to lead to the dev team are going to bring THE JRPG protagonist full circle and fully end his character arc in a satisfying way. I love how they're playing with it.
 

Rogue Agent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,532
Cloud's mental health is definitely the most compelling angle about the Rebirth ending and has a lot of potential for Part 3. It's like taking arguably the most powerful moment of the OG FFVII and going even harder with it with Cloud's coping mechanisms and processing his grief.

You could almost forgive what people felt was missing with the execution of the Aerith Scene if they pull it off really well, but it remains to be seen.
 

dglavimans

Member
Nov 13, 2019
7,739
Same here, I like how all roads tend to lead to the dev team are going to bring THE JRPG protagonist full circle and fully end his character arc in a satisfying way. I love how they're playing with it.

Cloud's mental health is definitely the most compelling angle about the Rebirth ending and has a lot of potential for Part 3. It's like taking arguably the most powerful moment of the OG FFVII and going even harder with it with Cloud's coping mechanisms and processing his grief.

You could almost forgive what people felt was missing with the execution of the Aerith Scene if they pull it off really well, but it remains to be seen.
Yeah it's really awesome to hear as a Cloud fan! Tbf this discussion i'm now 2 hours in and idk any except Max but this is such a freaking chill thing to listen to. Just 5 smart FF7 people theory crafting and them seem to differ, but they all respect each other let each other talk

it's a super cool video some things go so wild but in a way i'm like 'wow that can be super sick' haha.. the energy they talk about it makes you hyped at stuff you didn't even think about
 

MegaSackman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,767
Argentina
Yeah it's really awesome to hear as a Cloud fan! Tbf this discussion i'm now 2 hours in and idk any except Max but this is such a freaking chill thing to listen to. Just 5 smart FF7 people theory crafting and them seem to differ, but they all respect each other let each other talk

it's a super cool video some things go so wild but in a way i'm like 'wow that can be super sick' haha.. the energy they talk about it makes you hyped at stuff you didn't even think about

The idea that the party might consider the possibility that Cloud killed Aerith is dope af.
 

Scherzo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,060
Yeah after rewatching the ending, I'm definitely now more leaning towards Cloud didn't save her. The convergence only starts to happen after the party becomes enraged with grief, and it's clear that Cloud saw some version of her dying and is blocking it out. At the same time though I do think there still is an Aerith remaining in the Forgotten Capital, continuing to pray to stop Meteor? I don't think the Aerith he sees is a complete confabulation.
 

dglavimans

Member
Nov 13, 2019
7,739
The idea that the party might consider the possibility that Cloud killed Aerith is dope af.
Yeah I was like.. Damn, is Square ballsy enough to put the player thru that with Cloud.. Personally I would be up for it! But also I have knowledge from OG, how would others react to this, will the game make sure we at least know he didn't do that or will we be left in the dust like the party

Part 3 gonna wreck me like only the Last of Us 2 could manage and up that x100
 

brain_

What is a tag? A miserable pile of words.
Member
May 13, 2021
2,484
MO
Yeah it's really awesome to hear as a Cloud fan! Tbf this discussion i'm now 2 hours in and idk any except Max but this is such a freaking chill thing to listen to. Just 5 smart FF7 people theory crafting and them seem to differ, but they all respect each other let each other talk

it's a super cool video some things go so wild but in a way i'm like 'wow that can be super sick' haha.. the energy they talk about it makes you hyped at stuff you didn't even think about
Theorycrafting aside, I love that it was a full discussion on gameplay and world stuff they could do in Part 3 too.
The idea that the party might consider the possibility that Cloud killed Aerith is dope af.
It would make a great contrast to how much he was distrusting Tifa in this game too
 

Zalapski

Member
May 30, 2022
190
Yeah I was like.. Damn, is Square ballsy enough to put the player thru that with Cloud.. Personally I would be up for it! But also I have knowledge from OG, how would others react to this, will the game make sure we at least know he didn't do that or will we be left in the dust like the party

Part 3 gonna wreck me like only the Last of Us 2 could manage and up that x100

I just don't see this particular twist happening. When the party gets to the altar, they see both Cloud and Sephiroth -- Barret even screams "I'll kill you!" at Sephiroth. I don't see how any of them would think Cloud was responsible.

That being said, the idea that trust will erode between Cloud and everyone else as they get closer to the crater makes sense. The effect will be similar to what Sleepezi was talking about in the video, just without that particular plot point.
 

dglavimans

Member
Nov 13, 2019
7,739
Theorycrafting aside, I love that it was a full discussion on gameplay and world stuff they could do in Part 3 too.

It would make a great contrast to how much he was distrusting Tifa in this game too
Yeah fr, this is the one FF7 Rebirth video everyone should see imo! 3 hours in almost flew by and it's just such a nice talk about everything. They really matched each others energy here

I just don't see this particular twist happening. When the party gets to the altar, they see both Cloud and Sephiroth -- Barret even screams "I'll kill you!" at Sephiroth. I don't see how any of them would think Cloud was responsible.

That being said, the idea that trust will erode between Cloud and everyone else as they get closer to the crater makes sense. The effect will be similar to what Sleepezi was talking about in the video, just without that particular plot point.
I think personally it's too dark. Same as with some suggesting dark Cloud will be at the Wutai war? Like it's freaking cool to think about but I dunno if these are parts you can go back from!

And there are a few theories i'm undecided on in the video same as with the Zack joining the main party when Cloud is absent (talked about why already. It's not earned and undermines the OG cast) or Cloud being like a mega god or something

Only way I will accept Zack joining the main party and pushing back Tifa/Cid/Barret and Cloud is that he joins and is super incapable shown :')

But the video really does a good job at entertaining ideas where i'm like damn i'm so so in whatever it's gonna be that is just fun to listen too

Edit: the common gasp and 'no' at the is Glenn Clouds dad has me dying.. I want that SO not to happen. Please let Cloud just be a normal kid.

Tbf hearing the video theory crafting is so much better then typing it out and missing tone :')
 
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Rahkeesh

Member
Jun 20, 2022
4,069
Yeah after rewatching the ending, I'm definitely now more leaning towards Cloud didn't save her. The convergence only starts to happen after the party becomes enraged with grief, and it's clear that Cloud saw some version of her dying and is blocking it out. At the same time though I do think there still is an Aerith remaining in the Forgotten Capital, continuing to pray to stop Meteor? I don't think the Aerith he sees is a complete confabulation.

Cissnei is in a similar style of "denial" about Zack as that planetologist. Accepts that he died and yet is waiting for him to return to Gongaga in spite of that. And so far we see Zack having a kind of life and doing stuff. So I really think these timelines where they live (at least for a bit) are the medium they are using to play around with the departed, its not just a literal, secular and psychological approach, it never really has been with FF7.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,444
I still think when all is said and done the story will be very similar to OG. It's just going to be Aerith and Zack living happily in Lifestream alongside it or some other goofy shit.
 

Skel1ingt0n

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,779
Cloud's mental health is definitely the most compelling angle about the Rebirth ending and has a lot of potential for Part 3. It's like taking arguably the most powerful moment of the OG FFVII and going even harder with it with Cloud's coping mechanisms and processing his grief.

You could almost forgive what people felt was missing with the execution of the Aerith Scene if they pull it off really well, but it remains to be seen.

I 100% agree. And I adore how it can be seen as a parallel to all of us folks IRL in denial. Like, "hey, here's two massive remake games that make it clear the future can change!!! Yea, even THAT horrible thing that everyone knows is coming. … …. … buuuuuut even still, she still dying."
 

PancakeFlip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,925
Usually a creative person or an artist draws inspiration from various influences, thats pretty normal. The point is never to create something that is an exactly replica of what you're influenced by and instead to take elements and put your own spin on it, thus being creative. Take any musical genre that has come up through history, it's always been a "mashup" of previous genres to create something new, a new spin on what came before. Nojima referencing two different sources of inspiration shows that the story he's creating isn't conceptually exact to either one.

Besides that, I think we'll be seeing some more takes from people in the way these influences apply but for now here's one I came across recently. Not one person is going to have all of the answers to our question of course. Have to wait for Part 3 to have something that covers all of the bases.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csoaeg-kvwE&t=786s

There's some issues with what she's saying since there's clearly multiple of Elmyra and Marelene, Johnny, Kyrie (the creators even say that the characters we see in these other worlds are different versions of each other). The white nothingness space is probably representing the core soul that inhabits the planet and from here souls echo or diverge into the planet's memorial cycle system that manifest these different worlds. I use the term "memory" since that's what they use in game but its more of an omniscient essence that can create worlds that come in and out of existence.

I think this is a case where they are flying a little bit to close to the reference material though since what the hell does the planet look like to an outside observer? You just end up in a version of their world depending on the frequency of your existence in a plane?

In order to mash up to work, various influences need to be woven together in a way that feels coherent and complementary, and the lack of coherency is has been my main frustration about the ending. I know that every time I post here I look like I'm looking for the excuses to bash the game, but I'm trying to find some thread to pull that will actually lead me somewhere, but so far has been nothing but dead ends. And the justification that I can't expect to have any resolution because it's a middle part of the trilogy doesn't fly, when someone made a self-contained and satisfying movie out of the first half of the first Dune book.
They actually do give you an idea of what's going on better than I orginally thought. A lot of the problem is that they seem to want to hold the complete explanation until the very end and they purposely add elements of confusion by having Sephiroth babble nonsense and interpret things his own way. I mentioned in a post earlier but the whispers seem to actually be maintianers of the planets memories across all time and space (so its omniscient energy). Aerith tells you this at the end of Remake.

They create what Sephiorth calls worlds, when Aertih critisizes his behavior with the whispers and world manipulations Sephiroth gives his stupid "clouded eyes" line as he did when he taunts Cloud after he saves Aerith.

Remake--
Aerith: And you... You're wrong."
Sephiroth: "Those who look with clouded eyes see nothing but shadows."

Rebirth--
Sephiroth does the Aerith death world memory swap
Cloud and friends proceed to bug out while Aerith tries to console Cloud
Sephiroth: However... you'll never see the truth with such clouded eyes."
Cloud: "Shut up!"

Which is what leads me to belive that Sephiroth actually completely failed the attempt to kill her but just used the whsipers to swap in the OG death scene memory and fuse it into beagle, since beagle is still made up of the same essence as any of the other worlds.
 
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Rahkeesh

Member
Jun 20, 2022
4,069
I think this is a case where they are flying a little bit to close to the reference material though since what the hell does the planet look like to an outside observer? You just end up in a version of their world depending on the frequency of your existence in a plane?

Just waiting for them to ruin the "Cid seeing Gaia from space" moment with some shifting technicolor effects or something. Or maybe Sephiroth has to merge the worlds just in time so this isn't an issue.
 

Koklusz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,599
They actually do give you an idea of what's going on better than I orginally thought. A lot of the problem is that they seem to want to hold the complete explanation until the very end and they purposely add elements of confusion by having Sephiroth babble nonsense and interpret things his own way. I mentioned in a post earlier but the whispers seem to actually be maintianers of the planets memories across all time and space (so its omniscient energy). Aerith tells you this at the end of Remake.

They create what Sephiorth calls worlds, when Aertih critisizes his behavior with the whispers and world manipulations Sephiroth gives his stupid "clouded eyes" line as he did when he taunts Cloud after he saves Aerith.

Remake--
Aerith: And you... You're wrong."
Sephiroth: "Those who look with clouded eyes see nothing but shadows."

Rebirth--
Sephiroth does the Aerith death world memory swap
Cloud and friends proceed to bug out while Aerith tries to console Cloud
Sephiroth: However... you'll never see the truth with such clouded eyes."
Cloud: "Shut up!"

Which is what leads me to belive that Sephiroth actually completely failed the attempt to kill her but just used the whsipers to swap in the OG death scene memory and fuse it into beagle, since beagle is still made up of the same essence as any of the other worlds.
This reminds me how much I dislike the fact they brought back whispers for this game. In the Remake, they worked fine as a (very ham-fisted) representation of the rails the story was on, but now they are not only back despite the fact Arbiter of Fate is no more, there are several kinds of them, serving different masters, and because of design/color grading it's sometimes pretty hard to tell which one is which.

And as much as I appreciate the attempts of visual storytelling, when you combine different types of whispers with the other visual signifiers like the rainbow effect (which is used so liberally it's hard to say for sure what it's representing really), and Livestream effect, the visual language becomes so crowded that it becomes needlessly difficult to say what is even going on. And I won't even get into the discussion whenever or not whispers are FF7 version of "Nanomachines, son!", since we won't know for sure until the final game is out, but it sure feels to me like we are going there.
 
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Pachinko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
959
Canada
🤔 Every other timeline only exists inside the lifestream , sephiroth has access because he's dead and not of the planet and now he can interact with them thanks to the black materia. Cloud and crew stopped the world convergence and kept sephiroth at bay until the next critical mass event occurs that allows for another convergence. The Aerith that exits in the lifestream has caught up with the aerith that exists in clouds world ….. by being dead. Thanks to the convergence there is a single version of Aerith playing out within the life stream that Cloud can now see because he saved that one. He can see it because of either the white or black materia but his home timeline has no living aerith , she hella dead just as she was in the OG.
 

PancakeFlip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,925
🤔 Every other timeline only exists inside the lifestream , sephiroth has access because he's dead and not of the planet and now he can interact with them thanks to the black materia. Cloud and crew stopped the world convergence and kept sephiroth at bay until the next critical mass event occurs that allows for another convergence. The Aerith that exits in the lifestream has caught up with the aerith that exists in clouds world ….. by being dead. Thanks to the convergence there is a single version of Aerith playing out within the life stream that Cloud can now see because he saved that one. He can see it because of either the white or black materia but his home timeline has no living aerith , she hella dead just as she was in the OG.
They all exist in it, including beagle. The crack in the sky that Cloud can see confirms this. Aerith was able to see it immediately after leaving Midgar in Remake.
 

Ear Mortal

Member
Mar 9, 2022
577
In order to mash up to work, various influences need to be woven together in a way that feels coherent and complementary, and the lack of coherency is has been my main frustration about the ending. I know that every time I post here I look like I'm looking for the excuses to bash the game, but I'm trying to find some thread to pull that will actually lead me somewhere, but so far has been nothing but dead ends. And the justification that I can't expect to have any resolution because it's a middle part of the trilogy doesn't fly, when someone made a self-contained and satisfying movie out of the first half of the first Dune book.

It really is just a case of are you okay with not having the answer now or is that something that bothers you because you're left with things that don't immediately add up to something that you can make a complete logically picture out of. I hear you, I understand your perspective - you're not okay with that and that is a perfectly reasonable point of view. We all have different preferences when it comes to things like this.

I think they are deliberately making it so can't figure out the answer, I feel that comes across as very clear. I'm totally fine about it, I enjoy figuring it out.

There's some issues with what she's saying since there's clearly multiple of Elmyra and Marelene, Johnny, Kyrie (the creators even say that the characters we see in these other worlds are different versions of each other). The white nothingness space is probably representing the core soul that inhabits the planet and from here souls echo or diverge into the planet's memorial cycle system that manifest these different worlds. I use the term "memory" since that's what they use in game but its more of an omniscient essence that can create worlds that come in and out of existence.

I think this is a case where they are flying a little bit to close to the reference material though since what the hell does the planet look like to an outside observer? You just end up in a version of their world depending on the frequency of your existence in a plane?

Did the creators specifically say that all of the characters (Elmyra and Marlene, Johnny, Kyrie) seen in these different dog worlds are different versions? I think I recall they just said that the Aerith that is taking Cloud around during that sector 5 date is a different Aerith than the one we gave the White Materia back to but I don't remember them mentioning the other characters.

I don't personally have a solid theory concerning this myself, I mean, even if they are manifestations of Aerith dream or something you can could technically say they are different versions as well, just dream versions so I'm not sure how to make anything concrete out of that point.

I would argue all the scenes with the Zack/and or / other world segments all come across as very dreamlike, even the music is always very dreamy and hazy in it's approach. It has this sort of eternal longing quality to it.

At the same time, I think that Zack and Biggs are real in terms of their conscious awareness, it's not like we are witnessing an Aerith mind created version of them play out or anything. Marlene also comes across as real as far as I can tell given that they deliberately show you the callback to Remake where she got information from hugging Aerith at 7th Heaven.

In terms of what they show us, we are always in Midgar and these worlds are all about to end. It's like we are getting snapshots of a very specific moment in time where they are always at the very end of their lifespan. Also, we know that they are not equal in terms of longevity based on Sepiroth's exposition. It's like the world has fractalized and created possibilities but as soon as this occurred it resorts to becoming one with the planet to keep with the cycle of life and death.

They all exist in it, including beagle. The crack in the sky that Cloud can see confirms this. Aerith was able to see it immediately after leaving Midgar in Remake.

If that is the case, the first question that pops into my mind is: Why can all of the people of these others worlds see the crack in the sky but no one in the beagle world (except decidedly Aerith and now Cloud) can see it?

There is a differentiation between the beagle world and all of the other worlds we see, it seems. Also, the Ultimania seems to suggest that the crack in the sky that Cloud see's may not represent the same thing that it does for the Dog Worlds. So what would that difference be? Personally I'm thinking that the Beagle world is not in the lifestream.
 
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dyreschlock

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,107
Gifu, Japan
Get to level 70 if you aren't already.
Quickest way is the cat sidequest in Nibelheim chapter 12. Bees give crazy exp.
I'm at level 70 and redid all of the sidequests except the last one. I have a pretty decent rhythm playing as Yuffie with Cloud and Aerith as backups, but Can't Stop Won't Stop is killing me, trying to do legendary Combat Sims is killing me, Midgarsormar was rough, too.

I need to learn how to play Tifa as well as I play Yuffie.

yea its in the hangouts section now.
ah thanks :)
 

tjlee2

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,762
I'm at level 70 and redid all of the sidequests except the last one. I have a pretty decent rhythm playing as Yuffie with Cloud and Aerith as backups, but Can't Stop Won't Stop is killing me, trying to do legendary Combat Sims is killing me, Midgarsormar was rough, too.

I need to learn how to play Tifa as well as I play Yuffie.


ah thanks :)

Aerith isn't necessarily a good backup for Yuffie. She can't generate enough ATB to keep pace as a sub character to Yuffie and she is also ATB reliant which makes her better as a main (at least when you want to do damage), but since you have Yuffie she needs to be the main as her drop off from player control to AI control is even bigger. Characters that require less babysitting to function will work a lot better as a backups for Yuffie in my opinion.

Edit: if you want to keep the same team then it might be worth checking out brumal spam, but it would depend on if you want to play that way
 
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dyreschlock

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,107
Gifu, Japan
Aerith isn't necessarily a good backup for Yuffie. She can't generate enough ATB to keep pace as a sub character to Yuffie and she is also ATB reliant which makes her better as a main (at least when you want to do damage), but since you have Yuffie she needs to be the main as her drop off from player control to AI control is even bigger. Characters that require less babysitting to function will work a lot better as a backups for Yuffie in my opinion.

Edit: if you want to keep the same team then it might be worth checking out brumal spam, but it would depend on if you want to play that way
I think Aerith works alright as a backup, but maybe not best?

I have Aerith with Petrify Swiftcast and Petrify Synergy, and with Yuffie constantly building ATB and firing off attacks, Quake is constantly being cast. (Switch Quake out for another element when the boss is weak to something)

This has worked for most things so far. It only fails when the boss needs a more unique set up, like those mobs in Can't Stop Won't Stop.

Also, Yuffie ain't around for the first half of the game, and there's plenty of times through the story when the party gets split up.

I feel like I gotta get good at each character in the game in order to beat everything on hard mode :)