Fire Emblem: Three Houses Plot, Characters and routes discussion thread (Open Spoilers)
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While I don't like Edel I wouldn't compare her to Hitler. Her intentions were pretty decent I just feel the way she went about it was a mess. I see why she did it though I just don't agree with her.
Frankly I'm more bothered by people trying to take her agency by dumping every questionable thing she did on TWISTED shoulders. People can be morally fucked and you can like them. It's okay. You're not a monster for liking someone questionable. Dimitri did some sick shit I still like him doesn't mean he wasn't a sick puppy during boar mode. But maybe that's just because while I don't like her personally I liked her as a character because I like questionably moral female characters that do fucked up shit to accomplish their goals (that are reasonable goals and not just mustache twirling evil). I respect that. (It's also why I hate that whole shit with Byleth outside her route. It's just so pandering and absurd).
Like I feel about her the way I feel about Solas my PC would stab them in the throat on sight but the game would lose a lot of its luster if they weren't in it.
Also my god trying to discuss this on the subreddit has so many salty people on both sides yikes.
Frankly I'm more bothered by people trying to take her agency by dumping every questionable thing she did on TWISTED shoulders. People can be morally fucked and you can like them. It's okay. You're not a monster for liking someone questionable. Dimitri did some sick shit I still like him doesn't mean he wasn't a sick puppy during boar mode. But maybe that's just because while I don't like her personally I liked her as a character because I like questionably moral female characters that do fucked up shit to accomplish their goals (that are reasonable goals and not just mustache twirling evil). I respect that. (It's also why I hate that whole shit with Byleth outside her route. It's just so pandering and absurd).
Like I feel about her the way I feel about Solas my PC would stab them in the throat on sight but the game would lose a lot of its luster if they weren't in it.
Also my god trying to discuss this on the subreddit has so many salty people on both sides yikes.
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What's worse: a character who's development with racism ends with her realizing she's wrong or a character who simply comes to the conclusion that "Dedue is one of the good ones."
Hilda isn't exactly sympathetic, but she's far more grounded than most of the cast in the game. Like, I seriously doubt the majority of the white characters in this game would be gung-ho and chill about spending time with foreigners, and Hilda's progression on that front comes a lot significantly more natural than say, Sylvain, who's already like "lol, racism is for chumps amirite?!"
Also, Hilda is able to put aside her prejudice and potentially marry Cyril. Ingrid meanwhile, never marries Dedue despite being the same house as him.
She's stupid and incurious enough to believe the Duscur tragedy wholesale, which is a bad look on her part
I don't see how people come to the conclusion that Ingrid's support ends with "Dedue"s one of the good ones". Her B support with Dedue is more about her realizing her anger and hatred should be directed towards the people who perpetrated the crime rather than all the Duscurans, and that her prejudice has stopped her from forming relationships with good people like Dedue.
I feel like I'm talking to a wall with their argument. I totally agree with your take on Ingrid.
I guess it's just an agree-to-disagree thing. I really can't understand it. Ingrid has the more understandable and empathetic storyline. It reeks of a polarized "you're with us or against us" that Ingrid didn't marry Dedue as supposed atonement.
For the record I love both Ingrid and Hilda, I'm just saying that Ingrid's reasons for her attitude in the beginning are a bit more understandable, and that the racist aspect of her character is seriously overblown mainly because is directly mentioned in her dislikes.
Also, the fact that Almyrans are not even mentioned in Hilda's dislikes sort of indicates that she naturally thinks that they're uncivilized savages like some sort of universal truth,(and is also clear by how care-free she is about that with cyril at the start) which is more of a direct indication of actual racism.
I know that she gets over that way of thinking later on, but it's just an observation between the two characters that had me thinking.
Also, the fact that Almyrans are not even mentioned in Hilda's dislikes sort of indicates that she naturally thinks that they're uncivilized savages like some sort of universal truth,(and is also clear by how care-free she is about that with cyril at the start) which is more of a direct indication of actual racism.
I know that she gets over that way of thinking later on, but it's just an observation between the two characters that had me thinking.
I agree, and kinda wonder where Ingrid and Hilda critics fall along their own background. Obviously it's not an absolute rule to categorize this along ethnic lines; but as a mixed-race person I tolerate Ingrid way more than Hilda, where some of my white friends who played 3H liked Hilda more and thought Ingrid was a racist. Totally anecdotal as it was, it did make me wonder, as there's a different perception of what constitutes racism outside the privileged bubble.
By the way people on ERA talk about Ingrid, you'd think she's Stephen Moore.
You'd have a leg to stand on if this game had more platonic opposite sex endings, but the vast majority of opposite characters end up marrying in this game (often for tenuous reasons) especially if they're in the same house, so yeah it's fair of me to point how weird it is they don't marry. But no, i'm not basing my entire argument against Ingrid because she doesn't marry Dedue. Nor do I think she's an unrepentant racist, but when you make the argument that Ingrid "isn't problematic" when she has a superficial as fuck racism as arc, and call out Hilda for being a caricature of a white girl, then it's pretty clear you have an agenda.
Most of the people in this fandom are thirsting after her, but her arc with Cyril is better than Ingrid's arc with Dedue.
"I have none of the ideology or fascist tendencies but hey I was the aggressor in a war so I must literary be Hitler" Like holy shit this is such a lazy rhetoric at this point, you could choose literary any other historical figure but it always comes back to Hitler.
I don't understand how you call it "superficial," however.
As someone of mixed Japanese ethnicity who grew up in an army town--full of families who lost relatives to Japs or Gooks, I could at least understand their resentful racism because it came from loss. It came from hurt. It's like how in fiction, you have a sympathetic villain. Is it right? Nope, not at all. But I understand it. That's why I understand Ingrid's stance, because it's a human point.
Hilda's stance comes straight from ignorance. She is outright a caricature of a lazy, privileged noble girl. It's not an agenda, that's her whole schtick. And I can't sympathize with her diet racism that comes from an ignorant bubble.
If this is getting heated I apologize because you're coming at this argument from a respectful view and I appreciate that. And I don't know you and you may have even worse history than I do. But coming from my side, that's how I see the Hilda vs Ingrid racism argument. It's night and day.
Have you played the game? I would absolutely attribute fascist 'tendencies' to her. She went full-Daenerys. :/
My point is that some people are clearly missunderstanding Ingrid's and Dedue's A support as some sort of realization that he's "one of the good ones", when her actual take is that she should direct her hate towards the actual culprits of her loss, which Dedue even suggests that some people from Duscur might have actually been responsible for that, but she ends up figuring that even if that's the case she should not harbor such hatred for EVERY native from Duscur.
And like I said before, this entire point is moot considering her ending with Dedue explicitly states that they help with Duscur and Faerghus relations, even if they don't end up married, which I insist is a weird point to be fixated about.
That's what I'm trying to point out. Hell, Ingrid actually apologizes to Dedue for her attitude and changes her worldview to make it right. It's disturbing that she isn't seen as redeemed because she doesn't marry him....
Your very example also applies to Hilda, who lives on a border region and is part of a family known for fighting Almyrans. Her ignorance doesn't come from a different place than Ingrid's.
All endings end up with a pretty authoritarian society and are Imperialist as fuck. The other two countries get subjugated no matter what route you choose
I don't think that being in conflict with another nation for years would make you come to the idea that is a nation populated by uncivilized savages, which is what Hilda thinks of them at the start.
I've only finished BL and Edelgard-Hitler. Just reached the timeskip in the GD route. Playing Edelgard-Anti last, because it sounds like a proper finale.
Of course I have, all routes for that matter. Her goals revolve around the dismantlement of a corrupt Church that has directly contributed to the feudal society of Foldan. Like is fine if you disagree with the act of going to war in the first place of associating with TWSINT, or you maybe agree with the ideals of any of the other lords and that's fine. But trying to portray her as fucking HITLER is such an ignorant and dismissive attitude against her character especially when all ending end with a unified Foldlan with and authoritarian leader (and Edelgard is the only one we know steps down from the position)
Trying to compared her to Daenerys is just as dumb because when she is not the main antagonist she actively looks the path that requires the least bloodshed, she is aware of the lives lost but she is not a murdering maniac as you are portraying her.
Fascism is a completely meaningless term to throw at this game. These are medieval monarchs and princes, 20th century ideologies don't even begin to apply.
It'd be like calling Charlemagne or Otto the Great a fascist.
Pretty much.
Plus in SS Blyeth ends up god pope of everything XD (And I like this ending! But yikes at the potential for power abuse).
I mean damn you can dislike Edel without saying she's Hitler. I don't like her. She's still not Hitler like.
Edelgard is super-fine with anyone dying as long as she reaches her goal. That's fascism. Dimitri wasn't like that. While shrouded in dark thoughts, he only cared about going forward himself, he'd have fought all alone if necessary. Edelgard meanwhile is an evil schemer, using other people's lives as it fits her goals.
I think you need to go read some books. You don't seem to have a clue what fascism is.
Wut? I love Dimitri but his crazy ass goes on a murder spree. Hell he says to your face he's using you to get revenge during Boar mode in Azure Moon. He gets his head out his ass later on.
And the Dimitiri S rank. Church and State sleeping in the same bed? I know this is Fire Emblem and all S ranks have people do good things but talk about concentration of power within the elites.
Nah it's not as bad. They do argue about the right path and Dimitri's a good enough guy to let his gov't have some say and not just go with what Blyeth does. It's a sliver of a barrier but it's there. It's not there in Silver Snow.
This doesn't make this any better!
I hope most people in Germany don't think Fascism is just a thing bad people do.
WTF did you play the game? You are acting as if Edelgard has a total lack of worth for human lives when in her route actually has the shortest war by design. You have to be aware that Byleth moderates all the mayor players when they join them.
With the exeption of Claude he just kinda evaporates earlier.
And no PTSD is not a good excuse for becoming a murdering animal (by his own addition) when both Rhea and Edelgard also suffer from it they just manifest it in different ways.
That makes it worse lol.
In Claude's own route, he lays siege on civilians to try and speed up the fall of the capital. If the definition of Fascism is a callousness towards human life, all them Fire Emblem characters are pretty fascist after all.
Yes Edel, Rhea and Dimitri's PTSD are reasons for their actions not a justification. Dimitri by his own words knows his actions weren't justified. It's why he knows he'll never be able to make up for it no matter how hard he tries.
And yeah Claude just peaces out lol.
I can't take anyone who says this seriously, like they must have played a completely different game if they actually believe this
Edelgard is definitely not a fascist, lol. That's just silly.
Honestly the closest historical parallel is probably Napoleon (reformer, took power during a bloody revolution, strong expansionist tendencies, consolidated power under themselves), but most of his wars were defensive (to begin with) and he obviously didn't abdicate the throne so that's not a great fit either.
Honestly the closest historical parallel is probably Napoleon (reformer, took power during a bloody revolution, strong expansionist tendencies, consolidated power under themselves), but most of his wars were defensive (to begin with) and he obviously didn't abdicate the throne so that's not a great fit either.
This only makes your point even worse lmao
I don't care if you don't like her, but calling her Hitler is so inaccurate it's lolworthy.
Lol Dimitri was exactly like that, he even tells you straight up that he's going to use Byleth and the rest of the BL.
Actually, semi-fun historical fact: he wasn't that short, by the standards of the time. A combination of unit confusion and his tendency to recruit really tall bodyguards led to the rumor, which got amplified by English propaganda efforts. He was about an inch or so above the average.
hell as soon as the church is defeated she doesn't even try to expand any more and she shows a full willingness to engage in peaceful relationships with other nations
This was the first thing I thought of when people brought up Napoleon comparisons
It kills me
I knew you'd say that ;p
Maybe it's a bit hyperbolic, but this being the internet and FE3H being a Nintendo-game, it feels justified. She made so many shitty, evil choices, all in the name of her goal. As we know from the BL route, she even gives up her humanity to defeat our heroes.
Also, her name is Edelgard and you can't pretend that Hugo doesn't look like some evil German WW2 scientist 💁
True! Yeah, after the Church is defeated, she seems to focus entirely in on her reforms. That's her priority. Part of what I like about the character.
I do love how not only is she tiny, nobody ever brings it up in game. Doesn't even come through in her scenes, even though I believe the model height is consistent throughout. She's very tall for her height.
It's not. It's just wrong.
Also like what? And those last two sentences don't sound all that different from Dimitri, especially in GD. Dude has so much tunnel vision over killing Edelgard that he doesn't give a fuck what happens to anyone else.
I think it's a problem to look at character behavior in other playthroughs and taking that as gospel. Every faction acts different depending on who you Ally yourself with.
Edelgard is perfectly understandable and compassionate if you're allied with her. The only one who isn't is Dimitri (note I just started post timeskip BL) that dude basically is Caim from drakengard. He wants to kill for its own sake right now and that's fucked up.
Edelgard at least expresses how she hasn't been able to decisively win the war and that lots of people have suffered more than she thought.
Of course edelgard gets desperate when she's about to lose. But that's in blue lions. I guess. Even in the church playthrough she's not like that evil.
Nor in GD. BL is the only path she transforms and it's the only route where Slytherin didnt reveal their location via the magic nuke.