Jimmy Joe

Member
Aug 8, 2019
2,231
Y'all I would like to say that I like to have lost my mind at how aggressively capitalist the Verdant Wind path was

The further in I got the more merchants were celebrating decreased regulation and the rising power of the free market, I didn't know what to do with myself
 

Rayne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,634
Regardless of how broadly you take Dimitri's stated reforms to be, at the end of the day you're still stuck with a hereditary absolute monarchy supported by a powerful centralized church. Dimitri might be a Good King, but there's no guarantee that future kings of Fodlan would act for the people.

At least Edelgard's abdication of power establishes a precedence and a tradition of the role of emperor being one of Cincinnatus civic duty.

That and a bunch of nobles. That said considering he takes advice into consideration and that's an easy problem to see most likely some basic means of continuation would be in place. But yeah it could end badly. That said given Blyeth is god pope in this I'm more inclined to feel it has a higher chance of success :P
 

Austriacus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
724
it states that he reaches that in Foldlan and wishes to do so in other regions, sounds like its the other nations that he hopes follow suit

Sure, the same way old classes of racism die out and others stay. Just because the fodlans stoped hating the Almyrans doesnt mean racism ended, the Almyrans just stoped being a target for racism.

You are comparing shifting racism from one group to another to changing the structure of society
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,043
Sure, the same way old classes of racism die out and others stay. Just because the fodlans stoped hating the Almyrans doesnt mean racism ended, the Almyrans just stoped being a target for racism.

You are comparing shifting racism from one group to another to changing the structure of society
this might surprise you but I din't write the ending, just stating what's there

also nothing there indicates such shift happened, that's just your headcanon
 

Austriacus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
724
this might surprise you but I din't write the ending, just stating what's there
You are not stating whats there, you said the ending is racism harmony. Thats not what the ending is.

also nothing there indicates such shift happened, that's just your headcanon

Its not my headcanon saying that ending racism with one race doesnt mean the end of racism, what in heavens sake are you talking about?
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,043
You are not stating whats there, you said the ending is racism harmony. Thats not what the ending is.
In Foldlan, basically be it from Dagda or Bridgid, if they are in Foldlan they won't discriminated. The reason he expects the other nations to follow suit is because they don't share that view, ergo won't reciprocate that type of tolerance resulting in someone from Fodlan going to Dagda ends up being a victim of discrimination
 

Austriacus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
724
In Foldlan, basically be it from Dagda or Bridgid, if they are in Foldlan they won't discriminated. The reason he expects the other nations to follow suit is because they don't share that view, ergo won't reciprocate that type of tolerance resulting in someone from Fodlan going to Dagda ends up being a victim of discrimination

Theres absolutely nothing in any ending that indicates that whatever racism toward both Dagda or Brigid exists is eliminated, now THIS plus the rest you wrote is pure headcanon.
How about you go look for the endings and quote me this stuff you are making up because i sure cant find it
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,043
Theres absolutely nothing in any ending that indicates that whatever racism toward both Dagda or Brigid exists is eliminated, now THIS plus the rest you wrote is pure headcanon
The game states Foldlan reached racial harmony, what that entail depends on your interpretation, but one thing is clear, there is no mention they are racist towards people from Dagda
 

Jimmy Joe

Member
Aug 8, 2019
2,231
I haven't seen all of the paired endings for Verdant Wind, but Jeralt's narration for the VW ending is that the rulers of Fodlan began walking the long, hard road toward achieving equality of people of all races and religions; I do not believe it ever indicated whether these efforts were successful
 

Rayne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,634
I haven't seen all of the paired endings for Verdant Wind, but Jeralt's narration for the VW ending is that the rulers of Fodlan began walking the long, hard road toward achieving equality of people of all races and religions; I do not believe it ever indicated whether these efforts were successful

Yeah and Claude's solo ending is this

Claude - King of Unification

Claude returned to his homeland of Almyra and assumed the role of a politically active prince. After inheriting the throne, he worked to improve relations with Fódlan. In addition to establishing new trade routes, he fostered trust by sending reinforcements into Fódlan to help quell revolts by the remnants of the Imperial loyalists. Under his guidance, the peoples of Fódlan and Almyra were finally able to set aside age-old prejudices, and over time, the fallacies of old were all but forgotten.

Actually reading the solo endings Edel's is as vague as Dimitri's lol. Claude is the only one with any actual detail.
 
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Jimmy Joe

Member
Aug 8, 2019
2,231
Ah, a solo ending! I definitely didn't see that one. He was paired with Petra in my run (what a weird living situation those two had)

Seems like he did OK at reducing the prejudices that Almyrans and Fodlans had for each other. Good job, Claude

Now get to empiring, there's a lot more world to spread the good word to
 

Rayne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,634
I'm not arguing whether or not Edelgard's (or Claude's for that matter) society would work. I've plainly said that all three endings as asspulls. My argument from the very start is that Dimitri's ending is the biggest asspull of them all because of the complete lack of specifics. The others have specifics that let you easily argue why their societies would implode, like what you keep arguing. Dimitri's ending is so vague and amorphous that his vision of a society has a huge range because new form of government in which the people were free to be active participants can literally mean anything from direct democracy* to citizens simply submitting questions in the question box.

*Before you say that I'm arguing that Dimitri is implementing direct democracy again, I am not. I am saying that new form of government in which the people were free to be active participants has such a humongous range of governance types that it can basically mean anything you want it to be. A wish fulfillment ending is the biggest asspull a story can make.

**Edelgard's ending saying that she kills the TWISTED off-screen is less awful than Dimitri's ending because there's nothing amorphous about it. Its still wish fulfillment but its pretty clear cut what happens. Its a fact that can't be debated: the TWISTED are gone, they're dead.

The lack of specifics isn't the same thing as calling it platitudes as though Dimitri talks about things that he doesn't put into practice.

Now if you think its more of an asspull because of the lack of specifics thats your pregoative. I don't agree with that but whatever. It's not a platitude however.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,970
The lack of specifics isn't the same thing as calling it platitudes as though Dimitri talks about things that he doesn't put into practice.

Now if you think its more of an asspull because of the lack of specifics thats your pregoative. I don't agree with that but whatever. It's not a platitude however.

It is a platitude just like a politician saying that he wants the best for his country is a platitude. It's a wholly meaningless statement that no one reasonable could disagree with. Like you cannot define what "giving the people a voice" means from anything in Dimitri's route because he doesn't specify what he means.

Someone doesn't have to lie or fail to do as they say for their statement to be a platitude. Saying, for instance, you believe in the importance of education and will campaign on making education important again is a platitude. It doesn't mean fuck all because it's frequently expressed and no one reasonable should disagree with the statement. Just like the statement that people no matter their class should have a voice and the poor should be offered protections.
 

Rayne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,634
NVM if you want to think its a platitude by all means. Saying it is while ignoring the setting is beyond me but you do you.
 
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Dec 22, 2018
432
Now, Rhea, I think you're being much too generous. Rhea and co were there when the crested nobility was created . Odds on, they were directly involved. Of course they don't care much about it either way, Rhea's goals are largely detached from it, but "eh, it's whatever" is a pretty abominable stance for them to take, as the creators and direct beneficiaries of the system.

Trying to glean details about Rhea's past is difficult, but I think the little information we do have starts to paint a fairly interesting picture when you start to put all of the puzzle pieces together. Yes, Rhea was around for the creation of crests, but from what I can tell she isn't necessarily the creator of the crest "system" or a proponent for how they're currently being used by the nobility.

Crests and holy weapons are all harvested from the corpses of different dead dragons and, based on Rhea's personality and the comments she makes throughout the game, it's hard for me to imagine that she's fine with humans harvesting the body parts of her slaughtered family members simply so they can create and use overpowered weapons. Rhea seems to treat the "holy" relics with a certain degree of reverence, and seems to want to have them either within the church's control, or monitored by the church, which is why Rhea has the church intervene during Miklan's rebellion, and why the sword of the creator is sealed in a tomb.

Based on what we learn, I have two theories on the creation of crests and relics:

1. Rebelling humans developed them after killing several dragons, leading to creations like the "crest of flames" and the "sword of the creator", and Rhea responded by creating and giving crests to humans that support dragon kind (i.e. the ten elites).

2. Rebelling humans slaughtered a number of dragons and, in desperation, Rhea used the corpses of her family members to create crests and holy weapons, bestowing them on the ten elites.

In either scenario, I don't believe Rhea deserves the lion's share of the blame for the crest system. I also think it's worth noting that the terrible experiments done to Edelgard, Lysithea and their siblings, are carried out by those who slither in the dark, and are being done in-part because they want to end dragon influence in Fodlan once and for all. I actually find it highly ironic that Rhea and Edelgard end up getting pitted against each other, when both of them despise TWSITD and what they're doing. Though, as you rightly pointed out, Edelgard is more focused on systemic reform rather than revenge.

Got the same impression, Seteth is open with his dislike of the crest system (Ingrid support) and Rhea only cares about 2 things, bringing back her mother and killing TWSITD, Edelgard just needed to sell out TWSITD for Rhea to join her


Think ony Rhea was present at the time, Seteth was probably in cryo sleeping, and I mean the crest system from what it sounds was neessary to bring stability at the time and Rhea mostly benefits from the system by hidding the truth that her bones make powerful weapons, so basically just there so people don't genocide her people. And being indifferent In this case while horrible is understandable, hard to help those who killed your people and despite that she still lent them her peoples remains to calm things down.


But from what we saw the church is actually not that powerful, the church by itself isn't a danger to any of the 3 main powers, much less if they were to unite. And a war against a few rebel nobles and TWSITD would have been a much better result, easier to accomplish and less bloodshed. But she was too proud thinking she was the only one capable of bringing change, which she was wrong about as seen on other routes

I got the same support conversation between Seteth & Indgrid. There are also other comments that suggest the church leaders aren't huge fans of the current system, like pointing out that the only reason separate dorms exist for peasants and nobles is because the noble families insisted on them. Conversations like that, and the fact that priests and other high-ranking officials do NOT need to be crest bearers, heavily imply that the church is open to the idea of meritocracy as well.

And yeah, I completely agree with your take. The power of the church is largely overstated. And by "power" I mean the church's political influence rather than its military strength. It's clear that Rhea isn't ruling the three countries of Fodlan from the shadows, and at the start of the game she has next to no influence in the Empire . . . which also coincidentally happens to be where most of the horrific crest experiments are taking place.
 
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Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,544
Trying to glean details about Rhea's past is difficult, but I think the little information we do have starts to paint a fairly interesting picture when you start to put all of the puzzle pieces together. Yes, Rhea was around for the creation of crests, but from what I can tell she isn't necessarily the creator of the crest "system" or a proponent for how they're currently being used by the nobility.

Crests and holy weapons are all harvested form the corpses of different dead dragons and, based on Rhea's personality and the comments she makes throughout the game, it's hard for me to imagine that she's fine with humans harvesting the body parts of her slaughtered family members simply so they can create and use overpowered weapons. Rhea seems to treat the "holy" relics with a certain degree of reverence, and seems to want to have them either within the church's control, or monitored by the church, which is why Rhea has the church intervene during Miklan's rebellion, and why the sword of the creator is sealed in a tomb.

Based on what we learn, I have two theories on the creation of crests and relics:

1. Rebelling humans developed them after killing several dragons, leading to creations like the "crest of flames" and the "sword of the creator", and Rhea responded by creating and giving crests to humans that support dragon kind (i.e. the ten elites).

2. Rebelling humans slaughtered a number of dragons and, in desperation, Rhea used the corpses of her family members to create crests and holy weapons, bestowing them on the ten elites.

In either scenario, I don't believe Rhea deserves the lion's share of the blame for the crest system. I also think it's worth noting that the terrible experiments done to Edelgard, Lysithea and their siblings, are carried out by those who slither in the dark, and are being done in-part because they want to end dragon influence in Fodlan once and for all. I actually find it highly ironic that Rhea and Edelgard end up getting pitted against each other, when both of them despise TWSITD and what they're doing. Though, as you rightly pointed out, Edelgard is more focused on systemic reform rather than revenge.



I got the same support conversation between Seteth & Indgrid. There are also other comments that suggest the church leaders aren't huge fans of the current system, like pointing out that the only reason separate dorms exist for peasants and nobles is because the noble families insisted on them. Conversations like that, and the fact that priests and other high-ranking officials do NOT need to be crest bearers, heavily imply that the church is open to the idea of meritocracy as well.

And yeah, I completely agree with your take. The power of the church is largely overstated. And by "power" I mean the church's political influence rather than its military strength. It's clear that Rhea isn't ruling the three countries of Fodlan from the shadows, and at the start of the game she has next to no influence in the Empire . . . which also coincidentally happens to be where most of the horrific crest experiments are taking place.
You're conflating the creation of crests and the system of crested nobility. The former was created when Nemesis killed Sothis, drank her blood, and turned her bones into the Sword of the Creator. He then had his followers do the same with much of the rest of Rhea's family, thus creating the 10 Elites.

However, at some point a couple hundred years after that, Rhea (along with the Empire, headed up by Crest-bearers of her own) killed Nemesis. At some point after that, the remaining 10 Elites were given power, and titles. It's that last bit that looks like the problem, to me. She created a system where people believe that people with Crests are divinely blessed to rule, and every shitty thing we find out about the crested nobility descends from that, not the creation of crests in the first place. That Rhea isn't a particularly harsh enforcer of this dichotomy doesn't really earn her any points in my book.

As to power, Rhea heads the premier cultural institution on the face of the continent - even after the Empire had largely stopped working with the Central church, the faith is still present in all three nations, and the Western church is still apparently doing quite well for itself. Those who seriously push against the parts of the doctrine Rhea cares about, or who threaten the overall stability of the system, are harshly dealt with. Rhea had every reason to think that she was still in control of the situation, Imperial split or no Imperial split, right up until Edelgard barges in. Arguably until you go down the CF route, which is I think an understated reason for why Rhea snaps so hard when you do.
 
Dec 22, 2018
432
You're conflating the creation of crests and the system of crested nobility. The former was created when Nemesis killed Sothis, drank her blood, and turned her bones into the Sword of the Creator. He then had his followers do the same with much of the rest of Rhea's family, thus creating the 10 Elites.

However, at some point a couple hundred years after that, Rhea (along with the Empire, headed up by Crest-bearers of her own) killed Nemesis. At some point after that, the remaining 10 Elites were given power, and titles. It's that last bit that looks like the problem, to me. She created a system where people believe that people with Crests are divinely blessed to rule, and every shitty thing we find out about the crested nobility descends from that, not the creation of crests in the first place. That Rhea isn't a particularly harsh enforcer of this dichotomy doesn't really earn her any points in my book.

As to power, Rhea heads the premier cultural institution on the face of the continent - even after the Empire had largely stopped working with the Central church, the faith is still present in all three nations, and the Western church is still apparently doing quite well for itself. Those who seriously push against the parts of the doctrine Rhea cares about, or who threaten the overall stability of the system, are harshly dealt with. Rhea had every reason to think that she was still in control of the situation, Imperial split or no Imperial split, right up until Edelgard barges in. Arguably until you go down the CF route, which is I think an understated reason for why Rhea snaps so hard when you do.


You're right that to a certain extent I'm conflating the creation of crests with the system of crested nobility, but that's only because I think the latter is a direct and natural consequence of the former. Once these weapons of immense destructive power were developed and put into circulation, there was no going back. Nobles were always going to attempt to accumulate them (either through force or selective breeding) as a way to maintain or expand their political influence. With the rise of Nemesis, Pandora's Box had effectively been open.

That being said, I agree Rhea can't be fully absolved of her actions. She's built an entire false religion around her family and the crests themselves, which Church doctrine portrays as being divine gifts from the goddess, so the concept of nobles owning and using relics/ crests at least has her tacit approval. Most of the abuses we witness with the crests though are done without her express approval. Namely, experimentation (to accomplish things like having a host carry two separate crests at once or to insert the crest of flames into someone), and passing over noble family members who don't actually inherit their crests. I also feel compelled to point out that this latter abuse isn't too terrible when the alternative is just traditional succession based on your lineage rather than your competency.

The one thing I think you're speculating about is how Rhea might respond to a well intentioned reformist. Obviously, she won't let someone dismantle the mythology she's built around the church and her own supposed divinity. However, there's very little evidence in the game that I'm aware of that suggests she'd resist reforms that would limit the political significance of crests and champion meritocracy. Rhea seems way more invested in maintaining the lie of the church rather than the crest system itself, which seems to create more trouble for her than it helps her (at least in modern times).
 
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Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,544
You're right that to a certain extent I'm conflating the creation of crests with with system of crested nobility, but that's only because I think the latter is a direct and natural consequence of the former. Once these weapons of immense destructive power were developed and put into circulation, there was no going back. Nobles were always going to attempt to accumulate them (either through force or selective breeding) as a way to maintain or expand their political influence. With the rise of Nemesis, Pandora's Box had effectively been open.

That being said, I agree Rhea can't be fully absolved of her actions. She's built an entire false religion around her family and the crests themselves, which the Church doctrine portrays as being divine gifts from goddess, so the concept of nobles owning and using relics/ crests at least has her tacit approval. Most of the abuses we witness with the crests though are done without her express approval. Namely, experimentation (to accomplish things like having a host carry two separate crests at once or to insert the crest of flames into someone), and passing over noble family members who don't actually their crests. I also feel compelled to point out that this latter abuse isn't too terrible when the alternative is just traditional succession based on your lineage rather than your competency.

The one thing I think you're speculating about is how Rhea might respond to a well intentioned reformist. Obviously, she won't let someone dismantle the mythology she's built around the church and her own supposed divinity. However, there's very little evidence in the game that I'm aware of that suggests she'd resist reforms that would limit the political significance of crests and champion meritocracy. Rhea seems way more invested in maintaining the lie of the church rather than the crest system itself, which seems to create more trouble for her than it helps her (at least in modern times).
Rhea is mostly interested in stability, from what I can tell. She needs time to perform her experiments, and she needs to be sure that there won't be a new Nemesis. Anybody who threatens the status quo to a significant extent is either going to get subverted under her control (probably what really happened with the King of Lions, thus the very close ties to the Church) or crushed, like Lonato's son (and later Lonato), and Sylvain's brother. This kind of meddling is part of what Edelgard wants to put a stop to, so at the very least, that part of her agenda isn't compatible with Rhea's continued control - and any significant social reform would also present an unacceptable threat to stability, from Rhea's perspective. It's one thing to have a rebellion centered around a major figure you can bend to your will, it's another to totally alter the fundamental structure of society. That's going to lead to chaos, the kind she can't reliably exercise influence over. Some nobles accept it and strive to excel, others look to put down "peasant uprisings." Massive numbers of tiny conflicts seems like her worst nightmare, and one she's not at all equipped to deal with.

The crest system as a natural consequence of the existence of crests doesn't really hold up to me, though, and it also sort of presents a problem for the "peaceful reformer" possibility. Consider this - the mythology around Crests is built up by Rhea and reinforces the caste system, right? But it's entirely fictional. The 10 elites weren't blessed with power, they seized it. If Rhea had chosen to mythologize things differently - saying that Crests were the sign of the devil, as the most obvious example - the dynamic would be totally different. People would fear and shun Crest bearers. They certainly wouldn't sort society to elevate them. The fact that Rhea chose a myth that specifically elevates Crest bearers says to me that she's interested in keeping them prominent and in positions of power, so she can exercise control over them more easily. Keep your enemies close, and all that. She's fine with uncrested people, since she doesn't buy into her own mythology (in that respect, at least), so it's not like she vigorously enforces the caste lines every respect, but I think that anything that would cause her to lose that level of power isn't something she'd really regard fondly.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,569
Rhea is mostly interested in stability, from what I can tell. She needs time to perform her experiments, and she needs to be sure that there won't be a new Nemesis. Anybody who threatens the status quo to a significant extent is either going to get subverted under her control (probably what really happened with the King of Lions, thus the very close ties to the Church) or crushed, like Lonato's son (and later Lonato), and Sylvain's brother. This kind of meddling is part of what Edelgard wants to put a stop to,

christophe was planning to assassinate rhea, lonato was literally building an army to murder rhea, and miklan is a bandit who took possession of an item that was going to turn him into an uncontrollable, rampaging beast.

like i know rhea is an evil demon bitch or w/e but framing "rhea would like to not be murdered" as examples of her evil demon bitch meddling in the affairs of fodlan is maybe not super useful, nor is her dispatching people to kill bandits or whatever, because this is a fire emblem game and fire emblem is nothing if not "and then you fight bandits"

like "inexplicably lying about why christophe was executed" is a much better example of rhea's major faults (pathological lying) and how it comes back to bite her in the ass (lonato wants revenge because he knew she was lying).
 

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,544
christophe was planning to assassinate rhea, lonato was literally building an army to murder rhea, and miklan is a bandit who took possession of an item that was going to turn him into an uncontrollable, rampaging beast.

like i know rhea is an evil demon bitch or w/e but framing "rhea would like to not be murdered" as examples of her evil demon bitch meddling in the affairs of fodlan is maybe not super useful, nor is her dispatching people to kill bandits or whatever, because this is a fire emblem game and fire emblem is nothing if not "and then you fight bandits"

like "inexplicably lying about why christophe was executed" is a much better example of rhea's major faults (pathological lying) and how it comes back to bite her in the ass (lonato wants revenge because he knew she was lying).
Christophe was framed, though. Afaik there was never a real assassination plan. Lonato rebelled specifically for that reason. It descends from the same stuff, that's why I used it as an example. Miklan is more of an edge case, since he was apparently always kind of an asshole, but I think that it sorta works, if only because Rhea's stated priority there was to retrieve the Relic and return it to the people who "should" have it, iirc.

And I don't think she's a demon bitch, lol. I've talked about this before, I just think she gets too much slack from people who view preserving the status quo as a good thing in and of itself (and, admittedly, probably too much shit from people who only played CF and only see the crazy side of her). She did what she did for understandable reasons, but that doesn't make it good, or right.
 

PBalfredo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,518
That reminds me, Cathrine's a real piece or work, huh? Between her support with Ashe where she admits that at best she played real fast and loose with what charges Christophe got executed for, at worst framed him wholesale, and her support with Caspar where she states she's willing to go full Anakin Skywalker on younglings for Rhea, she's probably the most morally disgusting recruitable character, and this is a roster that includes Hubert!

Like I'm positive Hubert has been up to some shit, but he knows he's an agent who gets his hands dirty, while Cathrine's like a cop who is like "Sometimes you just gotta ice some kids, you know? It's fine, just sprinkle some cocaine on them afterwards."
 
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Basileus777

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,247
New Jersey
That reminds me, Cathrine's a real piece or work, huh? Between her support with Ashe where she admits that at best she played real fast and loose with what charges Christophe got executed for, at worst framed him wholesale, and her support with Caspar where she states she's willing to go full Anakin Skywalker on younglings for Rhea, she's probably the most morally disgusting recruitable character, and this is a roster that includes Hubert!

Like I'm positive Hubert has been up to some shit, but he knows he's an agent who gets his hands dirty, while Cathrine's like a cop who is like "Sometimes you just gotta ice some kids, you know? It's fine, just sprinkle some cocaine on them afterwards."
Catherine's a sociopath, she's the most morally disgusting person in this game not part of TWSITD.
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
Glad people in this thread have some sense, because Catherine is a literal zealot who will use flimsy justification to commit unspeakably evil acts.

She outright admits to Shamir that she would "cut her down" if they weren't bffs because she dared to admit she wasn't a believer of the faith. And that's not even getting into how she willingly burns a city down (though the FE wiki and fans seem to focus on her "remorse" and not her literally immolating thousands of people, lmao) for Rhea.

And that's why I love her. One of my absolute fav characters. A total beauty who is more rotten than any typical shitty FE bandit character.
 

cubotauro

Member
Aug 28, 2019
2,933
Regarding Catherine, she's completely aware of what she does and how reprehensible some of her actions can be, she even tells Caspar to not idolize her in any way.

Also her supports with Ashe might be among my favorites in the game, it's just so intense. I like her as much as I like Edelgard tbh.
 

Rayne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,634
Yeah Cath has issues but she's self aware and I can respect that.

Still wtf at that Shamir conversation though.
 
Dec 22, 2018
432
Rhea is mostly interested in stability, from what I can tell. She needs time to perform her experiments, and she needs to be sure that there won't be a new Nemesis. Anybody who threatens the status quo to a significant extent is either going to get subverted under her control (probably what really happened with the King of Lions, thus the very close ties to the Church) or crushed, like Lonato's son (and later Lonato), and Sylvain's brother. This kind of meddling is part of what Edelgard wants to put a stop to, so at the very least, that part of her agenda isn't compatible with Rhea's continued control - and any significant social reform would also present an unacceptable threat to stability, from Rhea's perspective. It's one thing to have a rebellion centered around a major figure you can bend to your will, it's another to totally alter the fundamental structure of society. That's going to lead to chaos, the kind she can't reliably exercise influence over. Some nobles accept it and strive to excel, others look to put down "peasant uprisings." Massive numbers of tiny conflicts seems like her worst nightmare, and one she's not at all equipped to deal with.

Rhea is clearly willing to use lethal force against people she perceives as a threat, but I don't think we've even seen her act without justification. It's true that Lonato's son Christophe was framed for Duscur Tragedy, but that's only because he was implicated in a plot to assassinate Lady Rhea. This is explored in some detail during one of Ashe and Catherine's support conversations (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfGefk02jxI at 33:26). Lonato himself staged a violent rebellion, and Sylvain's brother lead a group of murderous bandits. The case with Sylvain is the the most obvious example of Rhea intervening in affairs that don't directly involve the church, but we also have to keep in mind that the church frequently hunts down bandits, so targeting this group wasn't outside the norm for them, and Rhea also knew that prolonged exposure to the relic would turn Sylvain's brother into a giant, bloodthirsty beast.

As for the what happened with the King of Lions, that's actually really interesting to me and I wish the game had actually explored it. I'd argue it actually shows that Rhea CAN be reasoned with (assuming she didn't instigate the split between the Empire and Faerghus). She managed to broker a peace instead of allowing Fodlan to become embroiled in a prolonged civil war. Ditto with the Alliance, which seems to have a certain progressive ideals (. . . or at the very least, they're more interested in an oligarchy than a straight-up monarchy).

Edelgard was in a unique position as the heir apparent to the Fodlan's biggest country. That would have given her a lot of negotiating power. I find it hard to believe, based on what we saw in the game, that Rhea would have tried to violently move against Edelgard if she started dismantling the nobility and making reforms in her own country.

I guess we can't know for sure . . . but it makes for an interesting what-if scenario.

The crest system as a natural consequence of the existence of crests doesn't really hold up to me, though, and it also sort of presents a problem for the "peaceful reformer" possibility. Consider this - the mythology around Crests is built up by Rhea and reinforces the caste system, right? But it's entirely fictional. The 10 elites weren't blessed with power, they seized it. If Rhea had chosen to mythologize things differently - saying that Crests were the sign of the devil, as the most obvious example - the dynamic would be totally different. People would fear and shun Crest bearers. They certainly wouldn't sort society to elevate them. The fact that Rhea chose a myth that specifically elevates Crest bearers says to me that she's interested in keeping them prominent and in positions of power, so she can exercise control over them more easily. Keep your enemies close, and all that. She's fine with uncrested people, since she doesn't buy into her own mythology (in that respect, at least), so it's not like she vigorously enforces the caste lines every respect, but I think that anything that would cause her to lose that level of power isn't something she'd really regard fondly.

You make some really good points. I think Rhea's stance on crests might actually come from her vanity/pride as a dragon, and her sentimentality when it comes to her family. I mean, crests and relics are the harvested remains of her beloved family, so I can see why she'd prefer to treat them as "holy" rather than demonic. There are also practical reasons to make sure that they wind up in the hands (or family-lines) of her supporters, rather than destroying them or sealing them in a tomb somewhere for a rainy day. That doesn't justify her actions, obviously, but it does make what she does more understandable.

That reminds me, Cathrine's a real piece or work, huh? Between her support with Ashe where she admits that at best she played real fast and loose with what charges Christophe got executed for, at worst framed him wholesale, and her support with Caspar where she states she's willing to go full Anakin Skywalker on younglings for Rhea, she's probably the most morally disgusting recruitable character, and this is a roster that includes Hubert!

Like I'm positive Hubert has been up to some shit, but he knows he's an agent who gets his hands dirty, while Cathrine's like a cop who is like "Sometimes you just gotta ice some kids, you know? It's fine, just sprinkle some cocaine on them afterwards."

Yeah, Catherine is definitely up there on the list of morally reprehensible recruitable characters. If I had to vote though, I wouldn't give the title of "most morally disgusting" to her or Hubert. I'd give it to Crimson Flower Felix. Some of the comments he makes during that route are deeply troubling, and the exchange between him and Dimitri if you have him attack Dimitri absolutely floored me. I'm paraphrasing, but Dimitri basically accuses him of betraying his friends and family, and cutting down his father in cold blood . . . and Felix basically agrees. He doesn't try to rationalize his decisions; he just insists that he'd rather walk his own path in life to become the strongest fighter imaginable, and if that means he has to cut down his loved ones so be it. In a lot of ways, CF Felix reminded me of
Toguro
from Yu Yu Hakusho.
 

PBalfredo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,518
Speaking of, was anyone else surprised by the identity of the Flame Emperor? My first run through was Black Eagles and I was 100% convinced Rhea was the Flame Emperor. She had means to let TWSITD into the monastery. She had access to the crest stones, like the ones TWSITD apparently used to experiment on Remire village. And Solon banishing Bylteth to the shadow realm looked like part of Rhea's convoluted plan to bring Sothis back into this world. So when Rhea lured Byleth into the holy tomb for a vague "revelation" I was all like okay here comes the turn.

Then Edelgard just waltzes in and is like "sup, I'm the Flame Emperor"

And I, dumbfounded, just stare at Rhea like, "wait, and you're not?!?!"

Though I suppose it's more obvious in Blue Lions since Edelgard just drops the dagger beforehand. Though I do like that it indicates how fraught her relationship with TWSITD is that when meeting with them she is clutching a dagger in her hands beneath her Flame Emperor robes.
 

Zlug

Avatar Artisan
Member
Oct 1, 2018
2,320
Speaking of, was anyone else surprised by the identity of the Flame Emperor? My first run through was Black Eagles and I was 100% convinced Rhea was the Flame Emperor. She had means to let TWSITD into the monastery. She had access to the crest stones, like the ones TWSITD apparently used to experiment on Remire village. And Solon banishing Bylteth to the shadow realm looked like part of Rhea's convoluted plan to bring Sothis back into this world. So when Rhea lured Byleth into the holy tomb for a vague "revelation" I was all like okay here comes the turn.

Then Edelgard just waltzes in and is like "sup, I'm the Flame Emperor"

And I, dumbfounded, just stare at Rhea like, "wait, and you're not?!?!"

Though I suppose it's more obvious in Blue Lions since Edelgard just drops the dagger beforehand. Though I do like that it indicates how fraught her relationship with TWSITD is that when meeting with them she is clutching a dagger in her hands beneath her Flame Emperor robes.

In my first playthrough, Golden Deers, I was dumbfounded personally. I didn't expect it, at all. The only hint was Kronya who always was with Edelgard but I found this normal because she was in her class so....
 

Xita

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
9,185
Speaking of, was anyone else surprised by the identity of the Flame Emperor?

Nah, my first run was BE and I wasn't surprised. In fact I was pissed because I figured it out a few months beforehand, and I was like: "Edelgard you're amazing but please don't betray me I swear to God"

Still happy I didn't choose to kill her but maaaan I thought about it for a long time
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,961
Speaking of, was anyone else surprised by the identity of the Flame Emperor? My first run through was Black Eagles and I was 100% convinced Rhea was the Flame Emperor. She had means to let TWSITD into the monastery. She had access to the crest stones, like the ones TWSITD apparently used to experiment on Remire village. And Solon banishing Bylteth to the shadow realm looked like part of Rhea's convoluted plan to bring Sothis back into this world. So when Rhea lured Byleth into the holy tomb for a vague "revelation" I was all like okay here comes the turn.

Then Edelgard just waltzes in and is like "sup, I'm the Flame Emperor"

And I, dumbfounded, just stare at Rhea like, "wait, and you're not?!?!"

Though I suppose it's more obvious in Blue Lions since Edelgard just drops the dagger beforehand. Though I do like that it indicates how fraught her relationship with TWSITD is that when meeting with them she is clutching a dagger in her hands beneath her Flame Emperor robes.

I mean...she's the future Emperor. She has the Crest of Flames. And the "disguised" voice was obviously that of a woman. To me it was a no-brainer, though I was playing on the BE route.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,569
I was shooked on Golden Deer, because you don't really interact with Edelgard all that much. There are scenes that kind of try to cast suspicion on Claude, but it doesn't really work because Claude is actually cool, and likable. (Actually: There's a scene where Claude is eavesdropping after you get the Sword of the Creator where he's like "Wow if only I could get my hands on that..." and I think that's supposed to make him look suspicious, but the way it's phrased makes it sound like it's his first time hearing about the Sword, which would be weird for someone who intentionally sought it out)

It was a lot more obvious on Black Eagles because you spend a lot of time with her and thus become accustomed to her manner of speaking and can hear it in how the Flame Emperor talks.

I mean...she's the future Emperor. She has the Crest of Flames. And the "disguised" voice was obviously that of a woman. To me it was a no-brainer, though I was playing on the BE route.

Hmmm does she have the Crest of Flames as an enemy unit at the Battle of the Lion and Eagle
 

Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,319
I played BE and Edelgard kept excusing herself right before scenes and battles with the Flame Emperor so it felt obvious.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,053
I played BE and Edelgard kept excusing herself right before scenes and battles with the Flame Emperor so it felt obvious.

All of the Lords excuse themselves on their own path, so there are red herrings abound.

Also, the Crest of Flames is hidden until you get Exelgard's C rank I believe. Her rooftop confession where she reveals it is the prerequisite to get invited to the capitol.
 
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effingvic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,671
I got that spoiled for me and I was pissed lol. Still, the game makes it pretty obvious that she's up to something after chapter 9. When I found out she had the Crest of Flames, that made me feel like she definitely was on my side. I was crushed when I found out. Despite that, I was hoping some way to reconcile with her and unite against the true enemy but then she just became a mass murderer.

Catherine is great because she knows exactly who she is. No waxing poetic about honor and stuff.

Rhea is also one of the best characters in the game as well. I really thought she was evil and the game really sold you on that until the Flame Emperor revelation.
 

Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,319
All of the Lord's excuse themselves on their own path, so there are red herrings abound.

Also, the Crest of Flames is hidden until you get Exelgard's C rank I believe. Her rooftop confession where she reveals it is the prerequisite to get invited to the capitol.
Hah! Damn. So I only played the route where they played the red herring straight.
 

PBalfredo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,518
I was shooked on Golden Deer, because you don't really interact with Edelgard all that much. There are scenes that kind of try to cast suspicion on Claude, but it doesn't really work because Claude is actually cool, and likable. (Actually: There's a scene where Claude is eavesdropping after you get the Sword of the Creator where he's like "Wow if only I could get my hands on that..." and I think that's supposed to make him look suspicious, but the way it's phrased makes it sound like it's his first time hearing about the Sword, which would be weird for someone who intentionally sought it out)

It was a lot more obvious on Black Eagles because you spend a lot of time with her and thus become accustomed to her manner of speaking and can hear it in how the Flame Emperor talks.



Hmmm does she have the Crest of Flames as an enemy unit at the Battle of the Lion and Eagle
Nope, it only displays her minor crest of Seiros. It's added to her as a unit in Part 1 only if you get her C-support, which is BE exclusive.

Though yeah in hindsight it's super obvious. Her manner of speech as the Flame Emperor is exactly the same as her own. Between that and her horrible impressions of Ferdie and Hurbert, she's such a bad actress, lol.
 

HououinKyouma

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,435
Finished up my first playthrough after 80 hours (BE / Edelgard support). God, I loved it so much.

Out of curiosity, do we ever see Caspar's father in any of the playthroughs? The man seems like one of the most accomplished military leaders in the land - sounds like Fodlan's Arthur Dayne.
 
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Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,569
Finished up my first playthrough after 80 hours (BE / Edelgard support). God, I loved it so much.

Out of curiosity, do we ever see Caspar's father in any of the playthroughs? The man seems like one of the most accomplished military leaders in the land - sounds like the Fodlan's Arthur Dayne.

No. You never see him nor Hilda's Brother, both of whom are constantly talked up as Super Badass Generals.
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,076
Speaking of, was anyone else surprised by the identity of the Flame Emperor?
Kinda. I wasn't expecting anything special and probably thought it'd be a secondary character all things considered. Like a bad guy with some remorse who would join you late game of something. Like an optional recruitable dude. Side note: The Japanese voices make it less obvious about the concealed voice.

So when the reveal happened I was like: "huh?"

Quickly followed by "makes sense".
 

LunaSerena

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,525
If you put a bit of attention, the Flame Empror's inflextion when she says "I am who will reforge the world" sounds extremely similar to Edelgard's "I am no ordinary student".
The distortion can't hide that.
 

Morlas

Looking for a better cartoon show.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
73,213
Wasn't surprised at all by the time we got there tbh

El wasn't exactly subtle about wanting to start some shit
 

Deleted member 4208

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
409
I played BE-E as my first route and was pretty surprised by it. I kind of just stared at the screen for a moment and then started thinking about how it made sense: the name, ther Crest of Flames, etc.. Though one thing I thought was a clue and wasn't necessarily one was Hubert's "distraction" after the Remire Village mission. It was my first playthrough and didn't know at the time the other Number 2s would do the same and ask where the House Leader was.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,171
Wakayama
So yesterday I cleared the game, Black Eagles Crimson Flower route. Honestly, I think it was a mistake to allow the player to chose the BE house from the outset because it outright breaks certain twists in the story by revealing them way too early. Hm, Edelgard has a Flame Crest? And she's going to be an Emperor? And she's "not available" during a fight where the Flame Emperor appears in Chapter 6 HMMMMMMMMMMM I WONDER WHO THE FLAME EMPEROR COULD BE?!?! >_<

It also, frankly, feels like it was meant to be like the true route of the game. I frankly find Edelgard's goals to be noble and understandable; to stop perpetuating a false narrative that conveniently keeps the church/Rhea in power while enabling a system that allows people to be born into power, punishing those who don't, allowing lazy people to inherit power and wealth over those who work hard and are better suited for it, etc.. It's also very emotionally painful having to turn on your former friends who're blindly standing by the church despite they frankly horrible shit they're doing behind the scenes. I admit to watching some scenes of the Blue Lions on YouTube and I kinda agree with her assessment that ironically her way of doing things will lead to less casualties long term; the church does a fine job of making things "appear' just fine and peaceful on the surface but in that very Putin-esque way of having anyone who disagrees or isn't part of the faith suffer from mysterious accidents or disappearances that hopefully others may learn from. The appearance of a peaceful and prosperous society that may by some definitions be the latter but certainly not the former.

They should have taken the Ys Origins route, where two of the three routes are available at the start, with the third only unlocking after you complete at least one of the campaigns. That would have made more sense and would have made me REALLY want to jump back into the game immediately after clearing either the Lions or Deer! I would have been like "Oh yeah, time to experience this shit from the opposite side of the conflict let's GOOOOOO!" and then finding out everything else would have been more awesome. In my opinion, naturally.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,569
the church does a fine job of making things "appear' just fine and peaceful on the surface but in that very Putin-esque way of having anyone who disagrees or isn't part of the faith suffer from mysterious accidents or disappearances that hopefully others may learn from. The appearance of a peaceful and prosperous society that may by some definitions be the latter but certainly not the former.

that really isn't the case at all, rhea is very open and clear that she'll execute her enemies (who are, again, frequently people who literally want to kill her, specifically), and there are several characters who are very open about not being religious or part of the faith who she does not attempt to murderize. they even talk about how lonato opposes the church, but don't go to fight him until he literally starts building an army to attack rhea.
 

Tochtli79

Member
Jun 27, 2019
5,800
Mexico City
I had the Flame Emperor thing spoiled but as I was playing BE I convinced myself it must be a different person on each route or at least on BE because no way could it be Edelgard. I suspected Rhea as well, but things kept hinting at it being Edelgard so I went back and forth trying to decide who it could be. When the reveal happened I was a bit surprised but kind of let down that the spoiler was in fact true.