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Cheesebu

Wrong About Cheese
Member
Sep 21, 2020
6,181
Won't you all think of the poor bigots who have no choice but to give each person in their vicinity a rundown of their hateful thoughts?

Sad to see even this site has a clown or two bouncing around spouting about how unfair it is that consequences exist.
 

ARobotCalledV

Member
Aug 22, 2020
1,554
A lot of people can and does, I saw it and in other times your work does not really allows for that in any case. One of my co-workers was a libertarian that often criticized taxes, it didn't manifets in his job, there was no way.

He often talked how useless taxes are with other people and he cracked a couple of racist jobs with some of us drinking a few beers outside of work. No I don't think he had to be fired for that. Poison is everywhere these days and as adults we should already know where we stand in these issues and we have the power to how we relate to people is as easy as to not invite him again to those social meetings.

Firstly, you're just wrong about that. Using the example you provided. Racist views have an effect on the ability to work within a team and contribute to the company. I don't know what work he did, but I'll generalize. It'll effect the clients he could work with, his hiring practices and the way he interacts with other employees of the groups he is racist towards.

Second, there are an infinite amount of people needing jobs. The racist doesn't deserve theirs, instead give it to someone who would be a far more valuable employee and participant of society.
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
They can choose between their bigotry and their living.

No employer is required to keep a Klansmen on staff.

No employer is require to keep a Nazi on staff.

No employer is required to a keep an Isis terrorist on staff.

They are a danger to the very existence of entire classes of people.


I wonder how being a Klansmen in the police force would inherently affect that person's work?

I wonder how a homophobe in HR would inherently affect that person's work?

I wonder how white supremacist teacher would inherently affect that person's work?

Lets not pearl clutch over the hypothetical economic anxieties of bigots and terrorists.

No employeer is required to keep a racist neiher to keep a BLM supporter. The problem with that is that it flows both ways and you can't rely on the free market to uphold the society values. Is not their job and they shouldn't do it anyway. Is our job and goverments work to improve society and uphold those values.

Police forces and teachers precisely is a public service in which is key they "should be" hold to higher society standards. A HR that works under homphobe ideas is obviously affecting to do their job properly. Gina Carano being a trash person on public affects her job, that people should be fired. A dude making bolts at some fabric that votes Trump and likes dumb facebook posts? I don't think so.
 
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Horohorohoro

Member
Jan 28, 2019
6,725
No employeer is required to keep a racist neiher to keep a BLM supporter. The problem with that is that it flows both ways and you can't rely on the free market to uphold the society values. Is not their job and they shouldn't do it anyway. Is our job and goverments work to improve society and uphold those values.

Police forces and teachers precisely is a public service in which is key they are hold to higher society standards. A HR that works under homphobe ideas is obviously affecting to do their job properly. Gina Carano being a trash person on public affects her job, that people should be fired. A dude making bolts at some fabric that votes Trump and likes dumb facebook posts? I don't think so.
Equating racists to BLM supporters in terms of viewpoints and how they affect their lives and saying police forces are "held to higher standards" are both pretty bad takes.
 

Death Penalty

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,310
I'm actually totally okay with bigots not being able to put food on their table. The point being made here seems to be that if they punish evil people they might also punish good people?? Not really following the logic.
 

Death Penalty

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,310
Amazing. Having a racist on staff is exactly the same as having an anti-racist. Incredible.
That's not what they're saying, they're saying giving one employer the right to fire a racist means giving another the right to fire a progressive, therefore employers should not fire average Joe bigots as long as they keep their fuckery on the down low.

I think that's stupid, too, but it's different from equating BLM folks to bigots.
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
Amazing. Having a racist on staff is exactly the same as having an anti-racist. Incredible.

IS not the same, is just that an employer does not have any obligation to keep any employer based on their ideology for that matter if it does not affect their job or business.

Disney didn't kicked Carano because she was a shitty person, but because affected their business. It was a good thing? Sure, she should have been fired.

We should let capitalists companies decides who is good or bad to have a job?Absolutely not. Because we end with things like Facebook, Twitch banning words like incel, Twitter moderation, etc...
 

RowdyReverb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,938
Austin, TX
Why do people with such hurtful takes feel the compulsion to share them with the world? How is his commentary improving his life or benefiting Jewish people?
 

Chairman Yang

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,587
I never played Infinite but it was supposed to be big on "even if you live in a racist dystopia, striking back at your oppressor makes you just as bad' right?
It actually never said anything remotely like that. It got flak because it claimed that oppressed can become oppressors, which is very obviously true and has happened many times throughout history.
 

Hong

Member
Oct 30, 2017
776
Bruh I thought he was cool. Of course jewish people benefit from the firing of people spreading such hatred. It shows that believing, and even worse, spreading antisemetic content is not okay and has consequences.
 

Aeroucn

"This guy are sick"
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,313
The director of Bioshock Infinite has garbage politics who would have tought
 

Mórríoghain

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,151
Ken, sorry mate, I can't hear you? Maybe if you could take your head out of your own ass, I can parse what the fuck you are trying to say.

Cheers.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
It actually never said anything remotely like that. It got flak because it claimed that oppressed can become oppressors, which is very obviously true and has happened many times throughout history.

I think it's demonstrably, inherently true that a sufficient amount of power will eventually go to the head of even the most noble person, but this narrative frequently gets used by the people with societal power to justify why it's okay to continue stomping on the oppressed, because if they aren't kept in their place then one day they'll rise up and do to us what we did to them.

Oppressed groups who launch a rebellion do not become Just As Bad overnight and it's hard to cast a black woman as the leader of a rebellion against a flying city built by slave labour as Just As Bad, not to mention it's really irresponsible.
 

thepenguin55

Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,836
On the plus side, this shithead hasn't been able to ship a game to save his life. Seriously the dude went an entire console generation without shipping a new game and the last one he put out is not particularly well remembered, especially now.
 

Chairman Yang

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,587
I think it's demonstrably, inherently true that a sufficient amount of power will eventually go to the head of even the most noble person, but this narrative frequently gets used by the people with societal power to justify why it's okay to continue stomping on the oppressed, because if they aren't kept in their place then one day they'll rise up and do to us what we did to them.

Oppressed groups who launch a rebellion do not become Just As Bad overnight and it's hard to cast a black woman as the leader of a rebellion against a flying city built by slave labour as Just As Bad, not to mention it's really irresponsible.
I don't know about just as bad, but oppressed groups who've launched rebellions, even completely justified ones, have indeed become evil overnight. Look at the Haitian slave rebellions. Or more recently, jihadist groups under Assad's Syria.

You're right that this fact can be used by oppressors to justify their oppression. Not sure if that was the intent behind BioShock Infinite. I suspect not, but it's possible.
 

lowmelody

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,101
Those people can be deplataformed, ostracized and alienated from society even, but that does not mean they shouldn't be able to have food on their table every night because they can't pass their monthly biogtry test.

When you are a public face, of course that's different, because your public image and sometimes private image has a reach that inherently affects your work.

Racists work with minorities and that minority shouldnt have to suffer their humanity being questioned through """"opinions"""" or not 'put food on the table'.

The racist makes it zero sum in that case, THEY can fuck off.

This is more than celebs and platforming. We need to turn on the lawn mower in EVERY level of society when it comes to these white tumors.
 
OP
OP
Daniel Westlake
Oct 25, 2017
19,165
That business like Disney moves by money and not morality. They don't look for the good of society.
You obviously have no sense of understanding or respect for the people who exist in society around you, you lack any moral backbone or sense of responsibility, if you're happy about that that's really cool, but get out of my thread or I'm going to report you for this dumb derail that you've been fueling.
 

Clay

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,120
On the plus side, this shithead hasn't been able to ship a game to save his life. Seriously the dude went an entire console generation without shipping a new game and the last one he put out is not particularly well remembered, especially now.

I feel sorry for his team. He has some extremely talented artists working for him. I guess they're always free to jump ship.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
It actually never said anything remotely like that. It got flak because it claimed that oppressed can become oppressors, which is very obviously true and has happened many times throughout history.
It's used in an American context.

Here's a post I made years ago in a Bioshock Infinite thread.
It's not secondary. Race and Class are intertwined in this society. Not to mention this isn't being made in a vacuum and there's a reason they're pulling from American History with the founding fathers, oppression, and all the racist imagery it entailed. The game stumbles big time not just here and there. One of it's biggest failures is it doesn't go that deep and show just how terribly and violently racist and unjust Comstock's White supremacist society is to those disenfranchised. They just show them as second class citizens. They don't even use the word "nigger" in reference to any of the Black characters. The White protagonist you're playing really doesn't explore any of the themes the setting is just begging to explore, but rather the storytellers merely use it as "neat" backdrop for them to tell this cool sci-fi time travel story you have accompanied by this magical White woman. So that when you get to the part of Daisy Fitzroy, A Black woman revolution leader fighting against oppression, now committing murder on a child; she comes across 100 times worse than anything that has been done by the oppressors in the game because the game has failed to show any nuance or anything remotely deep or complicated it all is, and how messy revolutions can be, nor how being subjugated to violent, hate filled oppression can naturally make you violently hate your oppressors. So when Booker says, ""when it comes down to it, the only difference between Comstock and Fitzroy is how you spell the name", after rolling my eyes, I knew right then I was dealing with a writer who was completely clueless and tone deaf.

Also given it's American context the world it's set, it's reinforcing this notion throughout the writings of prominent White Americans why freeing the slaves before the Civil War, or granting them full rights during and after Reconstruction would be worse off for them, or why they were resistant to all the Black movements that occurred over the century because they were projecting that Blacks with full freedom would do the very things to them, that Whites had done to them for centuries. I kid you not, this fear by Whites was incredibly pervasive and used to justify White supremacy. The game just shows how true this is if they "win".

However it is telling how dismissive of all the overt American history, racism and Black movements it's pulling from so you can delude yourself in thinking it's primarily about class. Which funny enough is something people still do to this day.
 

lowmelody

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,101
So they whould have a worse fate than inprisoned criminals? Thats one non-humanitarian view if i ever saw one. Not having a high-income, high-profile official presence - sure....

The only thing they have to do is treat their coworkers as humans and they couldn't manage that so who fucking cares about racists or their needs? They've had all of history at their beck and call.

Roll em up.
 

fade

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,516
We should all accuse him of pedophilia in that thread to show solidarity with his statement.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,122
A lot of people can and does, I saw it and in other times your work does not really allows for that in any case. One of my co-workers was a libertarian that often criticized taxes, it didn't manifets in his job, there was no way.

He often talked how useless taxes are with other people and he cracked a couple of racist jobs with some of us drinking a few beers outside of work. No I don't think he had to be fired for that. Poison is everywhere these days and as adults we should already know where we stand in these issues and we have the power to how we relate to people is as easy as to not invite him again to those social meetings.

"Listen guys, I got this racist at work that I get beers with, I don't think he should be fired for that."

I wonder how the minority that gets treated with subtle hostility, outsized disdain, and shit talking behind his back, simply due to his skin or ethnicity, would feel?

Why should the racists need to put food on the table supersede the basic humanity and equal treatment of the minority that is likely to be treated differently working with him?
 

shoptroll

Member
May 29, 2018
3,680
Honestly it's not surprising the Lead Writer and Creative Director on the game that killed Irrational and has also spent the last 8 years sucking on the teat of 2K Games with little to publicly show for it would have a hot take like this.
 

lowmelody

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,101
All this mewling about what racists needs and wants at direct expense of their minority co workers. Pathetic.

They should terrified to even say racists shit or have their teeth knocked out, let alone a guaranteed job to shit on humanity from.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,122
I don't know about just as bad, but oppressed groups who've launched rebellions, even completely justified ones, have indeed become evil overnight. Look at the Haitian slave rebellions. Or more recently, jihadist groups under Assad's Syria.

You're right that this fact can be used by oppressors to justify their oppression. Not sure if that was the intent behind BioShock Infinite. I suspect not, but it's possible.
It doesn't really matter if it was the intent or not, you(Levine, not you the poster) are creating that moral equivalency by your framing combined with lack of sufficient context in the story or character.

You are removing the underlying context of oppressor and oppressed and both-sidesing them on a moral plane.

When Booker calls them "both the same" he's essentially channeling Levine's morality which boils down to seeing no difference between a person at their breaking point, stealing food to survive, and a person stealing from the hungry and destitute because they have the power to legally and physically exploit them with impunity.

To do so in a game about slavery no less, is rather grotesque.

EDIT: As for your analogy, I don't know enough about the Haitian rebellion to feel comfortable speaking, but the Jihadist groups in Syria to an extent I do. And even there you wouldn't be right in making any sort of moral equivalency. Instead, the context I would suggest is that Syria is a tragedy of history, domination and imperialism, and in that context of overwhelming domination and oppression, the only means to fight back tends to be through those that can organize, radicalize, mobilize, strategize, and physically attack back at their overwhelming oppressors. And the tragedy is that most times the only groups that find sustained success in pushing back are the ones fostered through less than ideal processes (like religious, ethnic, and nationalist radicalization, preying on the feeling of helplessness of naive and angry youth). It's not a story of the good becoming evil, it's a story of evil so overwhelming that the system it has imposed on its victims makes the privileged western concept of morality a near impossibility of remaining adhered to in rebelling against.

But what you get out of Levine is not that sort of nuance, instead what you get from him is taking that sort of tragic dynamic in history and removing those contexts, caricaturing Fitzroy to fit a simpler narrative, and declaring, in the words of Booker "You're both the same" when its anything but.
 
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Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
"Listen guys, I got this racist at work that I get beers with, I don't think he should be fired for that."

I wonder how the minority that gets treated with subtle hostility, outsized disdain, and shit talking behind his back, simply due to his skin or ethnicity, would feel?

All this mewling about what racists needs and wants at direct expense of their minority co workers. Pathetic.

They should terrified to even say racists shit or have their teeth knocked out, let alone a guaranteed job to shit on humanity from.

Just to clarify:
I never ever said there were minority coworkers on my job back then, just that he did a couple of racist jobs on a company event. It was obviously wrong, but you are creating an scenario in your head that never happened.

And that's all. I'm out
 

Steak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,327
Just to clarify:
I never ever said there were minority coworkers on my job back then, just that he did a couple of racist jobs on a company event. It was obviously wrong, but you are creating an scenario in your head that never happened.

And that's all. I'm out
"There weren't any minority coworkers" isn't the out you think it is.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,122
Just to clarify:
I never ever said there were minority coworkers on my job back then, just that he did a couple of racist jobs on a company event. It was obviously wrong, but you are creating an scenario in your head that never happened.

And that's all. I'm out

So as long as you work at a place that also doesn't employ minorities at all, and it's just a bunch of white guys shooting the shit about minorities all's good in the world?

To me that sounds like you are further putting your head in the sand about how casual racism manifests itself in the workplace.
 

lowmelody

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,101
If you sit around and tell or accept racists jokes rather than raise hell about them, you are a useless coward and can get fucked right along with the racist telling them.
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
So as long as you work at a place that also doesn't employ minorities at all, and it's just a bunch of white guys shooting the shit about minorities all's good in the world?

No, is not all good and all, but just that there wasn't any shit talking or hostiliy to other coworkers which obviously would have deserved to be fired if that ever happened. And as I said, it wasn't at the workplace. It was outside work.
 

Aselith

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,450
Just to clarify:
I never ever said there were minority coworkers on my job back then, just that he did a couple of racist jobs on a company event. It was obviously wrong, but you are creating an scenario in your head that never happened.

And that's all. I'm out

I'm sure the racists would stop with minority co-workers, right? I'm sure they wouldn't continue and say, "that's just how we talk around here, lighten up, it's just jokes" and bully that coworker if he started acting "uptight", right?


Did you tell this person he was wrong to say these things?
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
I'm sure the racists would stop with minority co-workers, right? I'm sure they wouldn't continue and say, "that's just how we talk around here, lighten up, it's just jokes" and bully that coworker if he started acting "uptight", right?


Did you tell this person he was wrong to say these things?

If that happened, they should be held accountable, reprimended and fired if appropiatly. Obviously.

Yes, not in that moment but later at the office when we were alone. I confronted him on many issues like taxes, inmigration and so on...not sure I was very effective rather than my coworkers usually considered me annoying.

according to his beliefs, it was 'wrong' but not wrong enough to confront because there weren't minority workers there.

It was wrong enough to me to tell him that it was wrong and reprimand him, but not 'wrong' enough to fire him.
 
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Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
I'm sure the racists would stop with minority co-workers, right? I'm sure they wouldn't continue and say, "that's just how we talk around here, lighten up, it's just jokes" and bully that coworker if he started acting "uptight", right?


Did you tell this person he was wrong to say these things?

according to his beliefs, it was 'wrong' but not wrong enough to confront because there weren't minority workers there.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,122
No, is not all good and all, but just that there wasn't any shit talking or hostiliy to other coworkers which obviously would have deserved to be fired if that ever happened. And as I said, it wasn't at the workplace. It was outside work.
You said it also occurred at a company event though didn't you?

I guess I'm still lost as to how you think this sort of behavior isn't problematic enough to be consequential from an employer/employee standpoint?

From your telling it seems like your company might have larger issues in their hiring practices, and the environment that has been fostered makes this guy feel comfortable telling colleagues racist jokes at a bar/company event with relative impunity. Behavior that seems like it could have real world consequences for any minority brought on. Not just in what he could overtly or subtlety do in terms of discrimination in the workplace, but also in the ways he has subtly primed the pump for a discriminatory work environment through his behavior with colleagues. But that aside, the employee has created workplace tension by simply introducing a dynamic of racism in colleague interactions that is likely to create contention within staff.

Which if you confronted him or felt uncomfortable as you say, he is already doing. Which even now without a minority present he is creating a problematic work environment that essentially forced a choice on the tolerance of racism amongst employees.
 

SnazzyNaz

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 11, 2019
1,875
Yoikes. I'm glad System Shock and BioShock are both out of his reach at this point.
 
Jan 11, 2018
9,660
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Brutal lol. But yeah, terrible take by Ken obviously.